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Whats wrong with Jainism ?
zidangus
Veteran
I have just been reading up on Jainism, which I have to admit I did not know much about, beforehand. Anyway there seems to be a lot of common ground between Buddhism and Jainism. So it somewhat baffles me how Buddhism has spread to every corner of the earth and is relatively popular, whereas Jainism is relatively unknown to the world. Any ideas why ? :scratch:
Number of Buddhist followers estimate 400–1,500 million
Number of Jainism followers estimate 8–12 million
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Jainism
Number of Buddhist followers estimate 400–1,500 million
Number of Jainism followers estimate 8–12 million
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Jainism
0
Comments
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/living/layjaincode.shtml
So again it kinda amazes me that there are not more followers of Jainism in the world, it seems pretty restricted to India.
Maybe we're lucky they've survived at all--it's a very ancient tradition. Thanks for bringing this up, z.
OK, I read the precepts further. Jains are supposed to give up sex after they have one son. They're not supposed to be sexually indulgent even when married, and can have sex only once they get married. I wonder if that had anything to do with potential enthusiasm for the religion?
Still, it's pretty interesting.
through extreme ascetism. While Buddha abandon that path
and found the middle way. extreme ascetism is still widely
practised in India, but in the Buddhist view is not the way to
enlightenment.
True, but it also says in the article that
"Very few modern Jains follow the letter of the rules given below, and in fact it would be very difficult to do so, but they do follow the spirit of the code."
So like Buddhism a lot of people do not follow precepts or rules to the letter (especially the speech precept, which I am guilty of a lot, I have to admit)
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
Buddha tried it remember, he almost died.
The core teachings of Jainism are:
1. Every living being has a soul.
2. Every soul is potentially divine, only held back by accumulated karma.
3. Every soul is born as a heavenly being, human, sub-human or hellish being according to its own karma.
4. So eliminate negative karma from your life to eventually escape the cycle of rebirth.
So the practice is a way of avoiding negative karma so your soul will be reincarnated up the ladder until it attains divine consciousness.
So Jainism identifies the problem as people's souls are trapped on this world by their karma, and we need to work off negative karma so we can escape being reborn. Unfortunately, one cannot lead a normal life without accumulating negative karma by these rules. But since living a moral, compassionate life while not harming other beings is the basis, it's not a bad idea.
Now what does Buddhism identify as the problem? That people are suffering in this life, and that suffering is caused by selfish desire, and freedom from suffering is possible when you eliminate those selfish desires from your mind. Karma is simply those selfish desires at work. Eliminate selfish desire and karma is gone.
So Jainism is a way of working the system within the rules of karma, and treats karma as some cosmic record of good and bad actions that you carry around. Sounds a lot like Buddhism, at least as many people practice it, doesn't it?
But Buddhism goes further. It says if suffering is caused by selfish desire, and selfish desire is caused by the illusion of self, then if you eliminate desire, where is the self for karma to cling to?
True, many Buddhists embrace the Jainist belief in transmigration of souls type of reincarnation and their karma as fate stand, and how many times have we discussed if killing a bug is bad karma? Even if the misquito is spreading malaria? But Buddhism goes beyond that. The fact that we even need to discuss it shows there's a difference. Jainism would just say, "Of course killing bugs is wrong. People who die of malaria are just living out their own karma. End of discussion."
number of Jainism followers is estimated 8–12 million. For the two to have such a big difference in followers considering how alike they are in a lot of the teachings is surprising, to me anyways. Maybe Buddhism has better PR, :cool: .
@hermitwin I am sure that a lay Jain does not practice extreme ascetism, just as a lay Buddhist does not practice Dhutanga, tough I may be wrong. :rolleyes:
"If a Jain's work unavoidably causes harm (e.g. farming) they should try to minimize the harm and maintain complete detachment."
So this suggests that intention is also important in Jainism, as it is in Buddhism.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.008.than.html
This missionary outreach is different from just establishing temples so immigrants can practice their native religion, such as Jainism does, although there is nothing wrong with that. But it does turn an ethnic religion into a world religion.
This, however, does not accurately describe the Buddha's teaching on karma, and is instead a fairly accurate account of the Nigantha teaching, which the Buddha explicitly refutes here. As he interrogates the Niganthas, he makes the point that if all pleasure and pain experienced in the present were determined by past action, why is it that they now feel the pain of harsh treatment when they practice asceticism, and no pain of harsh treatment when they don't? If past action were the sole determining factor, then present action should have no effect on their present experience of pleasure or pain.
If the cause of present suffering were located exclusively in the past, no one could do anything in the present moment to stop that suffering; the most that could be done would be to endure the suffering while not creating any new kamma leading to future suffering. Although this was the Jain approach to practice, many people at present believe that it is the Buddhist approach as well. Meditation, according to this understanding, is the process of purifying the mind of old kamma by training it to look on with non-reactive equanimity as pain arises. The pain is the result of old kamma, the equanimity adds no new kamma, and thus over time all old kamma can be burned away.
The Buddha practiced some very gruesome practices for a few years . In the Maha-sihanada Sutta, the Buddha listed the unnecessary and physically harmful austerities he picked up from other practitioners around the region during that time. Some of these practices are found in Jainism. The Buddha practiced them to the point of near death. He said ” by such conduct, by such practice, by such performance of austerities, I did not attain any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?” The Buddha recalled a meditative state he entered by chance as a child and abandoned the ascetic practices he has been doing so he can practice his meditation . At that time his companions also abandoned him .
Jainism emphasizes asceticism , self-mortification, or torturing the body, as a means of purifying the soul .
Due to his previous experience , the Buddha doesn’t suggest his disciples to take up any kind of self-mortification, or torturing the body. The middle way is neither indulgence in sensual desires nor is it self- mortification . The emphasis is on A. purity and simplicity, B.meditation , C.understanding and wisdom.
The scriptures record philosophical dialogues between the Buddha and the Jains and Nigantha Nataputta and the Buddha’s disciple. In these discussions they discuss their differences regarding the concept of karma and rebirth, practices and meditation. For example, during that time the Jains doesn’t believe that there is a samadhi where there is no thought. Texts such as Patanjali’s Yoga Suttras are composed long after the Buddha. They are influenced by the Buddha’s Eightfold Path.
Also , Rhys Davids and Maurice Walshe agreed that " the term ' samadhi' is not found in any pre-buddhist text. Other texts later used that term to indicate the state of enlightenment. This is not in conformity with Buddhist usage." - From the Long Discourse of the Buddha: A Translation of the Digha Nikaya” ( pg. 1700)
Although Samadhi where the mind stop was adopted by later texts, but it was considered Enlightenment. However, the Buddha clearly taught an Eightfold Path consisting of three division: Sila, Samadhi, and Panna. Just Samadhi alone will not be sufficient for enlightenment. The Buddha himself entered Samadhi when he was a little boy, but without the third division ( Panna), he did not become enlightened back then. Later on he developed Panna using that Samadhi.
" In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there exists not the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there to be found a true samana of the first ( Stream Entry) , second ( Once Returner) , third ( Non-Returner) , or fourth ( Arahant) degree . But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true samana of the first, second, third, and fourth degree of saintliness. In this Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there exists the Noble Eightfold Path; and in it alone are also found true samanas of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness (enlightenment). The systems of other schools are empty of true samanas . If the bhikkhus live (practice) rightly, the world will not be empty of arahants. " - Mahaparinibbana Sutta
Differences in Meditation:
For example, in the Nigantha Nataputta sutta of the Citta Samyutta # 41 ) , the Nigantha Nataputta ( Jain leader) does not even believe that it is possible to practice a samadhi without thought ( they might have adopted later though):
Nigantha Nataputta said to Citta ( a non-returner disciple of the Buddha) : “ Householder, do you have faith in the ascetic Gotama when he says: “ There is a concentration without thought and examination, there is a cessaton of thought and examination?”
Citta : “ In this manner, venerable sir, I do not go by faith in the Blessed One …..”
Nigantha Nataputta said “ …….One who thinks that thought and examination can be stopped might imagine he could catch the wind in a net or arrest the current of the river Ganges with his own fist.”
Citta then goes on to explain that he doesn’t just go by mere faith, but directly experienced it for himself. Also he explained how he entered these jhanas .
Citta then goes on to explain that he doesn’t just go by mere faith, but directly experienced it for himself. Also he explained how he entered these jhanas .
"Once, Mahanama, when I was staying near Rajagaha on Vulture Peak Mountain, a number of Niganthas were at Black Rock on the slopes of Isigili, practicing continuous standing: rejecting seats, experiencing fierce, sharp, racking pains due to exertion. So in the evening, rising from seclusion, I went to the Niganthas at Black Rock on the slopes of Isigili and on arrival asked them, 'Why are you practicing continuous standing: rejecting seats, experiencing fierce, sharp, racking pains due to exertion?' When this was said, the Niganthas said to me, 'Friend, the Nigantha Nataputta[5] is all-knowing, all-seeing, and claims total knowledge & vision thus: "Whether I am walking or standing, sleeping or awake, knowledge & vision are continuously & continually established in me." He has told us, "Niganthas, there are evil actions that you have done in the past. Exhaust them with these painful austerities. When in the present you are restrained in body, restrained in speech, and restrained in mind, that is the non-doing of evil action for the future. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted."[6] We approve of that [teaching], prefer it, and are gratified by it.'
"When this was said, I asked them, 'But friends, do you know that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist?'
"'No, friend.'
"'And do you know that you did evil actions in the past, and that you did not not do them?'
"'No, friend.'
"'And do you know that you did such-and-such evil actions in the past?'
"'No, friend.'
"'And do you know that so-and-so much stress has been exhausted, or that so-and-so much stress remains to be exhausted, or that with the exhaustion of so-and-so much stress all stress will be exhausted?'
"'No, friend.'
"'But do you know what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now?'
"'No, friend.'
"'So, friends, it seems that you don't know that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist; you don't know that you did evil actions in the past, and that you did not not do them; you don't know that you did such-and-such evil actions in the past; you don't know that so-and-so much stress has been exhausted, or that so-and-so much stress remains to be exhausted, or that with the exhaustion of so-and-so much stress all stress will be exhausted; you don't know what is the abandoning of unskillful mental qualities and the attainment of skillful mental qualities in the here-&-now. That being the case, those in the world who are murderers, bloody-handed doers of what is cruel, when they are later reborn among human beings, go forth with the Niganthas.'
"'But, friend Gotama, it's not the case that pleasure is to be attained through pleasure. Pleasure is to be attained through pain. For if pleasure were to be attained through pleasure, then King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha would attain pleasure, for he lives in greater pleasure than you, friend Gotama.'
"'Surely the venerable Niganthas said that rashly and without reflecting... for instead, I should be asked, "Who lives in greater pleasure: King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha or venerable Gotama?"'
"'Yes, friend Gotama, we said that rashly and without reflecting... but let that be. We now ask you, venerable Gotama: Who lives in greater pleasure: King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha or venerable Gotama?'
"'In that case, Niganthas, I will question you in return. Answer as you like. What do you think: Can King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha — without moving his body, without uttering a word — dwell sensitive to unalloyed pleasure for seven days & nights?'
"'No, friend."
"'... for six days & nights... for five days & nights... for a day & a night?'
"'No, friend."
"'Now, I — without moving my body, without uttering a word — can dwell sensitive to unalloyed pleasure for a day and a night... for two days & nights... for three... four... five... six... seven days & nights. So what do you think: That being the case, who dwells in greater pleasure: King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha or me?'
"'That being the case, venerable Gotama dwells in greater pleasure than King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha.'"
Other differences regarding the concept of kamma:
Sankha Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.008.than.html
Devadeha Suta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html
Maha-Saccaka Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html
"And what is the Uposatha of the Jains? There are the contemplatives called the Niganthas (Jains). They get their disciple to undertake the following practice: 'Here, my good man. Lay down the rod with regard to beings who live more than 100 leagues to the east... more than 100 leagues to the west... more than 100 leagues to the north... more than 100 leagues to the south.' Thus they get the disciple to undertake kindness & sympathy to some beings, but not to others.
"On the Uposatha day, they get their disciple to undertake the following practice: 'Here, my good man. Having stripped off all your clothing, say this: "I am nothing by anything or of anything. Thus there is nothing by anything or of anything that is mine."' Yet in spite of that, his parents know of him that 'This is our child.' And he knows of them that 'These are my parents.' His wives & children know of him that 'This is our husband & father.' And he knows of them that 'These are my wives & children.' His workers & slaves know of him that 'This is our master.' And he knows of them that 'These are my workers & slaves.' Thus at a time when he should be persuaded to undertake truthfulness, he is persuaded to undertake falsehood. At the end of the night, he resumes the consumption of his belongings, even though they aren't given back to him. This counts as stealing, I tell you. Such is the Uposatha of the Jains, Visakha. When this Uposatha of the Jains is undertaken, it is not of great fruit or great benefit, not of great glory or great radiance." -Muluposatha Sutta AN 3.70
A king recount to the Buddha about the teaching of various ascetics, including Nigantha Nataputta ( Jain Leader) at that time:
"Another time I approached Nigantha Nataputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings and courtesies, I sat to one side. As I was sitting there I asked him: 'Venerable Aggivessana, there are these common craftsmen... They live off the fruits of their crafts, visible in the here and now... Is it possible, venerable sir, to point out a similar fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now?'
"When this was said, Nigantha Nataputta said to me, 'Great king, there is the case where the Nigantha — the knotless one — is restrained with the fourfold restraint. And how is the Nigantha restrained with the fourfold restraint? There is the case where the Nigantha is obstructed by all waters, conjoined with all waters, cleansed with all waters, suffused with all waters. This is how the Nigantha is restrained with the fourfold restraint. When the Nigantha — a knotless one — is restrained with such a fourfold restraint, he is said to be a Knotless One (Nigantha), a son of Nata (Nataputta), with his self perfected, his self controlled, his self established.'
"Thus, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Nigantha Nataputta answered with fourfold restraint. Just as if a person, when asked about a mango, were to answer with a breadfruit; or, when asked about a breadfruit, were to answer with a mango: In the same way, when asked about a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, Nigantha Nataputta answered with fourfold restraint. The thought occurred to me: 'How can anyone like me think of disparaging a priest or contemplative living in his realm?' Yet I neither delighted in Nigantha Nataputta's words nor did I protest against them. Neither delighting nor protesting, I was dissatisfied. Without expressing dissatisfaction, without accepting his teaching, without adopting it, I got up from my seat and left.
For more discussions regarding the differences between the Buddha's teachings and the Jains on kamma, practices, and meditation, search for Nigantha in the suttas. Nigantha is the old word refering to Jains.
With metta,
(Great topic!)
1:there are many people who were like me and dissatisfied with their religious beliefs.
and
2: have not found Buddhism or found Buddhism, agree with a lot but don't agree with some of the Buddhist principles such as concepts of no soul.
Then if these assumptions are correct then to me its surprising there are not more lay Jain followers in the world.
I could be wrong, but it seems like asceticism is something peculiar to India, pretty much. Maybe that didn't travel as well, culturally. Then there are those restrictions on sex others mentioned. I agree, though, it looks very interesting. Buddhism seems like a "kinder, gentler" version of Jainism. And a bit more sophisticated in its theory.
You are welcome. Below are some discussions showing major differences relating to meditation and kamma:
1 & 2: Meditation and Insight Division:
The jhanas are never associated with Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta of Jainism. In fact, in the Nigaṇṭha Nātaputta Sutta (S 41.8) are described as not believing that samadhi where there is no thought is possible ( the ones taught by the Buddha) . Meditation as an organized system did not exist before the Buddha’s time. Whatever hint of meditation we find in pre-Buddhist India were sporadic and formative.
Rhys Davids and Maurice Walshe agreed that " the term ' samadhi' is not found in any pre-buddhist text. However, later it is incorporated into the Eight Limbs of yoga to mean enlightenment. Now some people see the similarities and mistaken that the Buddha's teaching was influenced by the Jains simply because Jainism started at an earlier date. However, the Patanjali Yoga Suttas must be written long after the time of the Buddha. The Eight Limbs of Yoga was influenced by the Buddha's Eightfold Path.
According to the Buddha, samadhi is simply a springboard for the development of insight and not considered enlightenment yet. There is still the need to develop the Panna division, which includes insight into the nature of Non-self, Impermanence, and Dukkha.
3. Differences in Sila practice: Words , Thoughts , and Action
There are some who mistake that the Buddha’s teaching on Kamma or Sila comes from the Nigantha because the religion was earlier. However , the recorded philosophical debates between the Buddha and the Nigantha shows that the Buddha did not agree with the Nigantha’s concept relating to this subject.
Nigantha Nataputta taught that past deeds should be extirpated by severe austerities, fresh deeds should be avoided by inaction. But in the Buddha’s teachings, these extreme physical torment are considered fruitless and harmful practices and not necessary for the purification of negative past kamma . In fact , these prevent a person from being able to enter the samadhi that the Buddha taught because these physical tortures make the body and mind agitated and depleted, and can possibly lead to death in some cases.
According to the Upali Sutta, the Nigantha held that physical action create kamma independently of the involvement of the mind ( acittaka) . But in the Buddha’s teaching the mental factor Volition ( cetana) is also the essential ingredient of kamma. And in its absence- that is, in the case of unintentional bodily or verbal activity- no kamma is created:
Nigantha Tapassi said: “ Of these three kinds of rod, friend Gotama, thus analyzed and distinguished, the Nigantha Nataputta describes the bodily rod as the most reprehensible for the performance of evil action, for hte penetration of evil action, and not so much the verbal rod and the mental rod.”
Buddha: “ Do you say the BODILY rod, Tapassi ? “
Note: the Niganthas are accustomed to using the word rod ( danda) rather than action ( kamma) as in the case of the Buddha.
Then after, the Nigantha Tapassi asked the Buddha about his teaching regarding kamma , which the Buddha replied:
“ Of these three kinds of action ( physical , verbal, mental) , Tapassi, thus analyzed and distinguished, I describe mental action as the most reprehensible for the performance of evil action, for the penetration of evil action, and not so much bodily action and verbal action. “
Nigantha: “ do you say mental action , friend Gotama?”
Upali Sutta: http://www.dhammaweb.net/Tipitaka/read.php?id=90
Looking at the discussion between the Buddha and a Nigantha in the Maha-Saccaka Sutta, we can see that the Nigantha did not practice Development in Body and Development in Mind correctly according to the Buddha:
Buddha asked a Nigantha: “But what have you learned, Aggivessana, about the development of the body?"
"There are, for example, Nanda Vaccha, Kisa Sankicca, and Makkhali Gosala. They are a cloth-less[1] ascetics, rejecting conventions, licking their hands, not coming when called, not staying when asked. They don't consent to food brought to them or food dedicated to them or to an invitation to a meal. They accept nothing from the mouth of a pot or from the mouth of a bowl. They accept nothing from across a threshold, across a stick, across a pestle, from two eating together, from a pregnant woman, from a nursing woman, from a woman living with a man, from where it is announced that food is to be distributed, from where a dog is waiting or flies are buzzing. They take no fish or meat. They drink no liquor, wine, or fermented drink. They limit themselves to one house & one morsel a day, or two houses & two morsels... seven houses & seven morsels. They live on one saucerful a day, two... seven saucerfuls a day. They take food once a day, once every two days... once every seven days, and so on up to a fortnight, devoted to regulating their intake of food."
"But, Aggivessana, do they survive just on that?"
"No, Master Gotama. Sometimes they eat outstanding staple foods, chew on outstanding non-staple foods, taste outstanding delicacies, and drink outstanding drinks. They rescue the body & its strength, fortify it, and fatten it."
"What they earlier abandoned, Aggivessana, they later gather up. This is how there is decrease & increase of the body. But what have you learned, Aggivessana, about the development of the mind?"
Yet Saccaka the Nigantha, when asked by the Blessed One about the development of the mind, was unable to respond.
Then the Blessed One said to Saccaka, "The ones you described just now as developed in the development of the body: That is not legitimate development of the body in the discipline of the noble ones. As you don't understand the development of the body, from where would you understand the development of the mind? Nevertheless, as to how one is undeveloped in body and undeveloped in mind, and developed in body and developed in mind, listen and pay close attention. I will speak."
"As you say, Master Gotama," Saccaka responded.
The Blessed One said, "And how is one undeveloped in body and undeveloped in mind? There is the case where a pleasant feeling arises in an uneducated run-of-the-mill person. On being touched by the pleasant feeling, he becomes impassioned with pleasure, and is reduced to being impassioned with pleasure. His pleasant feeling ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling there arises a painful feeling. On being touched with the painful feeling, he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. When that pleasant feeling had arisen in him, it invaded his mind and remained because of his lack of development of the body. When that painful feeling had arisen in him, it invaded his mind and remained because of his lack of development of the mind. This is how one is undeveloped in body and undeveloped in mind.
"And how is one developed in body and developed in mind? There is the case where a pleasant feeling arises in a well-educated disciple of the noble ones. On being touched by the pleasant feeling, he doesn't become impassioned with pleasure, and is not reduced to being impassioned with pleasure. His pleasant feeling ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling there arises a painful feeling. On being touched with the painful feeling, he doesn't sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat his breast or becomes distraught. When that pleasant feeling had arisen in him, it didn't invade his mind and remain because of his development of the body. When that painful feeling had arisen in him, it didn't invade his mind and remain because of his development of the mind. This is how one is developed in body and developed in mind."
“The Devadaha Sutta and Cūlla Dukkhakkhandha Sutta contains a detailed analysis and attributed to the Buddha, of the beliefs and teachings of the Niganthas. He there selects for his condemnation ten of their operative utterances, major and minor, and proves that the efforts and strivings of the Niganthas are fruitless.”
Looking at the surface it is easy to mistake that the Buddha’s teaching is the same as Jain practices and theory. A closer analysis shows that at the beginning their theories and practices are very different. But later , the Patanjali Yoga Suttra modeled the Eight Limbs after the Eightfold Path therefore making the Buddhist and Jains teaching appear similar on the surface. But still, there is major differences. The Buddha taught that it is necessary to develop the Panna division of insight to penetrate the nature of Impermance, Non-self to transcend dukkha. This aspect was not incorporated into the Jains teaching .
With Metta,