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Did Buddha Teach the Tantras and Tantric Sex? And What is this Teaching?
"But to say that the Buddha of the Pali Canon taught Tantra, then that is not fine. To make claims that he did as the Tibetans have is not only false but disgraceful."
Ok umm? Which one of us has said the Pali Canon taught Tantra?
"Basically here, I really object to women being used in the practice of tantra, which is degrading to women. I object to the fact that the Tibetans used small children, gave them sweets and alcohol and even raped them if they said no."
I object to the second part too. But tibetans such as HHDL have not raped children. You are letting your fantasies run wild and then stating it as fact.
To the first... Do you object to women in general having sex? Do you object to your mother having sex with your father? Does it matter if the sex happens in a tantric ritual? Do you object to rough sex or bondage? Between consenting adults? Do you object to french tickler condoms?
"I object to Buddha being seen in this light, and I think it should be exposed. Women have no idea what they are getting into when they take the empowerments, why? Because they can't even read them until they take them. They get close to a lama, trust the lama, and wham bam thank you mam."
Again you are letting your fantasies run wild. Are there pirates with the Tibetan lamas? Is this a porn fantasy website, newbuddhist.com?
"I think their are many cases of abuse in Tibetan Buddhism with threatening women with death and hell if they tell anyone what is happening, which is what happened to June Campbell and others. I think that Dakini has some information on this."
"You can all practice what you want, but I still think it needs to be exposed for what it is. What I do know is that women and children have suffered greatly at the hands of lamas. That is what I am sticking with. It has destroyed lives, broken up sanghas, etc."
Thao I agree that it should be exposed. But you haven't explained what IT is. You make specific statements based on the kalachakra teachings. And then you generalize to all of Tibetan buddhism. Hitler killed 7 million jews but that doesn't mean all germans are responsible.
"Which lamas?" What is it you want to know? Which lamas are practicing the tantras? Any school that uses tantra texts would obviously be practicing those texts, would they not? If not, then why have them? Although they would not be using underage women in Western society.
What is your point on lamas not being monks, although my ex teacher, a lama calls himself a monk?
"Which lamas?" What is it you want to know? Which lamas are practicing the tantras? Any school that uses tantra texts would obviously be practicing those texts, would they not? If not, then why have them? Although they would not be using underage women in Western society."
There is your assumption. You are assuming that all lamas base their empowerments on the kalachakra text. I could equally argue that all german universities are teaching that jews are inferior and should be killed due to Hitler's Mein Kampf
"Which lamas?" What is it you want to know? Which lamas are practicing the tantras? Any school that uses tantra texts would obviously be practicing those texts, would they not? If not, then why have them? Although they would not be using underage women in Western society.
What is your point on lamas not being monks, although my ex teacher, a lama calls himself a monk?
Many of your questions are not worth answering Jeffrey. I think you know better, but if you desire to stand up for the tantras, then that is your right, but I wish you would stick to better questions. Questioning my likes and dislikes in regards to sex is inappropriate for this conversation. The conversation is not about me, it is about abuse by gurus.
"What is your point on lamas not being monks, although my ex teacher, a lama calls himself a monk?"
lamas are not always monks. they can get married so obviously they are having sex. zen priests can also marry. and have sex. Its none of your business what others do in their bedrooms.
I did not say that all lamas base their meditation on the kalachakra as there are other tantric texts that are used. it so happens that the dalai lama does as does another lineage that i know of.
"Questioning my likes and dislikes in regards to sex is inappropriate for this conversation. The conversation is not about me, it is about abuse by gurus."
It is appropriate because you are pronouncing that your sexual taste is appropriate guide to what consenting adults do in tantra. It is none of your business.
"I did not say that all lamas base their meditation on the kalachakra as there are other tantric texts that are used. it so happens that the dalai lama does as does another lineage that i know of."
"I think their are many cases of abuse in Tibetan Buddhism with threatening women with death and hell if they tell anyone what is happening, which is what happened to June Campbell and others. I think that Dakini has some information on this."
June should bring charges in a court of law.
She waited until her lama died. She did this for her own protection.
"I did not say that all lamas base their meditation on the kalachakra as there are other tantric texts that are used. it so happens that the dalai lama does as does another lineage that i know of."
Case closed.
Other Tibetan lineages use other tantric texts in their sexual practices. It just so happens that the Kalachakra is the highest text.
"She waited until her lama died. She did this for her own protection."
Thao if tantric sex is bullshit then threats of superstitious hell is also bullshit. If rape happens to anyone else in the future they need to know that they should preserve the physical evidence with the DNA and so forth and get to the police. I hope you don't believe that I agree with rape.
"Other Tibetan lineages use other tantric texts in their sexual practices."
Case closed.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I'm quite sure that tantra has been used as an excuse for abusive sexual relations. Most of the writings in the Tantras are symbolic as you yourself said Thao. "Even my teacher claimed that it wasn't at all about sex, that the picture a Buddha with a consort was only the union of wisdom and compassion". You also say that you don't believe thats the case, which is fine but thats just your opinion on the matter.
Equating abusive, coerced, indulgent sex with tantric ritual is like equating a police officer and a school shooter because they both use guns. A police officer can certainly use his gun inappropriatly and they need to be held accountable but its not the same.
And yes I do find it horrifying to entice young girls to participate in tantric sex even if done with the best of intentions not to mention abusive ones.
The Tibetan Arts of Love book you say is based on tantric ritual. Probably so, but its not tantric ritual, just as the infection of the people in Tuskegee was based on medicine but hurt people instead of helping.
Case is not closed. I am saying that Tantra is still practiced, and women are still being used.
Also threats of going to hell are really brainwashing techniques used to get disciples to do what you want, and if you fear the lama you will do what he asks. He claims to have the power to send to hell or the pure land. I found it interesting that my own teacher taught the hells in the second lesson. I told him that I didn't believe in such hells. But if someone like June Campbell is taught to fear the lamas as she did, and yet was abused by one, then she has fear of speaking out, and this has happened in cases. Most women do not speak out at all. Some have committed suicide. But what is it to you. I should just keep my mouth shut, it is none of my business what goes on in monasteries. Although the Dalai Lama himself said that it was our duty to speak out against abuse.
Well, the painting of a Buddha and consort is actually used as a visual technique to arouse one in tantric sex as stated in the Commentary book. So it is actually very sexual image. The teachers lie by saying that it isn't sexual, and so what have we here? Lying teachers, which is against the precepts. But of course being highly evolved they can drink, have sex, and lie.
Basically, in the beginning, in Tibet that is, young girls were used, just because this has been sanitized in Western culture doesn't mean that it is a good teachings, does it? I would not doubt that it isn't still practiced the same way in India and in Tibet by lamas as it was in the texts.
Like guns can be used for good or evil.... the teaching on the hells is also used for good. It is motivation to meditate and study rather than spend money and indulge in senses.
"Also threats of going to hell are really brainwashing techniques used to get disciples to do what you want, and if you fear the lama you will do what he asks. He claims to have the power to send to hell or the pure land. I found it interesting that my own teacher taught the hells in the second lesson. I told him that I didn't believe in such hells. But if someone like June Campbell is taught to fear the lamas as she did, and yet was abused by one, then she has fear of speaking out, and this has happened in cases. Most women do not speak out at all. Some have committed suicide. But what is it to you. I should just keep my mouth shut, it is none of my business what goes on in monasteries. Although the Dalai Lama himself said that it was our duty to speak out against abuse."
I understand this but you are missing one point. Because there is some bad apples the whole barrel is not bad.
"Basically, in the beginning, in Tibet that is, young girls were used, just because this has been sanitized in Western culture doesn't mean that it is a good teachings, does it? I would not doubt that it isn't still practiced the same way in India and in Tibet by lamas as it was in the texts."
"objection. speculative. we will now take a 10 minute recess and then the witch hunt will go on."
This is true, but women and I mean women should know what they are getting into when they join a Tibetan Buddhist group. I know of some that loved to talk about having sex with the lama on a certain forum. Well, if that is what they want, then they are more than likely old enough to go for it, but in the end they will find that their spirituality remains wanting, and when the lama is through with them, then all kinds of problems can occur.
Anytime you give any lama power there is a great, and i mean great, likelihood that he will become corrupt, and to use sex with a student is actually just wrong. I would suggest you read The Guru Papers--Masks of Authoritarian Power. The guru/disciple relationship is like a father/daughter father/son relationship, and to have sex is next to having incest. But I know, you won't read the books or go to the websites.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Again you're basing your belief that the tantras are to be taken literally and not symbolically on the assumption that the lamas teaching it are lying.
"Basically, in the beginning, in Tibet that is, young girls were used, just because this has been sanitized in Western culture doesn't mean that it is a good teachings, does it? I would not doubt that it isn't still practiced the same way in India and in Tibet by lamas as it was in the texts."
"objection. speculative. we will now take a 10 minute recess and then the witch hunt will go on."
In the Kalachakra Tanta sex with girls from 11 to 21 are mentioned. These are young women. After 21 women are really considered not good for various reasons. One, they have too much power.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
The guru/disciple relationship is like a father/daughter father/son relationship
The guru/disciple relationship isn't like that, its a western misunderstanding.
The role of a spiritual teacher or guru is often misunderstood in the West. For one thing, we lost the ancient system of studying under one teacher for many years to learn a craft like carpentry or masonry, and we are not used to this system anymore. There is a lot of confusion about spiritual teachers; some people may believe that a guru will take over the entire responsibility of a disciple's life, leaving the pupil more like an obedient, mindless puppy.
"It seems that most students actually want to remain little children and idolize their holy daddy, and holy mommy." Scott Mandelker
Again you're basing your belief that the tantras are to be taken literally and not symbolically on the assumption that the lamas teaching it are lying.
person, I know people who have taken the empowerments, and they say that they are sexual. if you believe otherwise then you are taking a lama's word for it, and the lama has to keep this all secret or he can end up in hell.
if you had read dharma wheel, you at least have some admitting that they are sexual and not symbolic. the symbolic is to cover up the real.
The role of a spiritual teacher or guru is often misunderstood in the West. For one thing, we lost the ancient system of studying under one teacher for many years to learn a craft like carpentry or masonry, and we are not used to this system anymore. There is a lot of confusion about spiritual teachers; some people may believe that a guru will take over the entire responsibility of a disciple's life, leaving the pupil more like an obedient, mindless puppy.
"It seems that most students actually want to remain little children and idolize their holy daddy, and holy mommy." Scott Mandelker
This is one man's opinion. I was in the Ramakrishna Order, which is based in India, and the guru/disciple relationship was just that, father/daughter/son. Even the gurus called us their children. I was taught that we had to obey the guru, just as disciples of a lama are to obey. I didn't obey. I think the father imagine sucks.
And I know that India has a dislike for Tantric practices, calling them black magic, and that the father of Yogananda caught him practicing tantra and told him that it was dangerous and evil. India is ashamed of tantric practices. The Tibetans should be just as ashamed, and they were enraged when it was first brought to India, but it seeped in anyway.
And I was in a group that taught kriya so I know how to channel energy, and I understand how the sexual energy is being channeled in these texts, and I know that Ramakrishna practiced tantra as did Maharishi of TM. This is not new to me. I left these groups, TM, SRF, Ramakrishna. I learned what these gurus were doing. Hinduism fell apart in America because of these practices, because women were being abused, and if enough people learn about Tibetan Buddhism, the real truth, then there may be an exodus out of it too. But actually, there are always a few that join without understanding and end up being sucked in.
Wow thao, interesting points indeed. It only takes a few permutations until a religion turns to sex. I dont see how having sex with 11 year old girls helps in anyway. I also dont see how coming up with a sexual practice has anything to do with Buddhism.
The most interesting part though is that teachings are meant to be secret and the idea that "westerners woudlnt understand."
Whenever it is a secret, its already BS. And I bet the reason is you need to be "ready" for the information, which is also BS. Thats what $cientology does, its all secretive.
And the idea that westerners wouldnt understand it is also incredibly stupid. Thats just a flimsy excuse to get away with things.
I have a theory on how a woman is prepared to take initiation. I know this from my own experience of women in Self Realization Fellowship as Yogananda had a lot of women, and few would talk. 1. they were young, and 2; when you are close to a guru you end up loving him or her; 3. you are told that you have to do what the guru tells you to do or else. he is the boss. 4. you think that he really is a god man and can lead you to God or to enlightenment. 5. you are hooked on him, and that is how you prepare the women. Then they get this initiation and they do what he says. They have now been so brainwashed, that even if it isn't easy, they often do it. Then the shame can come in so they don't talk about it. And hey, many women like it, but then it ends up being destructive with women leaving religion altogether, with the organization being split, or with some women killing themselves. I even know of men who when they learned about Yogananda quit meditating and left the organization. Their beliefs in religion were destroyed. So yes, you need to prepare your students to accept such things.
And you are right, it is all BS.
It could be that the men who wrote these tantric texts liked young girls, but it could be just like it is with war, they send young men to war because they don't know any better. A girl will put up less of a fuss, especially if you give them alcohol or sweets. But either way they have to have sex with the lama. Little girls are used to obeying men, their fathers. Even in American society, unless a 21 year old woman has been raised with strong morals and strong ego, etc. she may be too naive to understand this guru/disciple relationship and what will happen to her in the future if she stays.
I want to point out that Trantic Texts are not Buddhist Texts:
"These texts describe the esoteric teachings of Tantra, a belief system which originated in India, praticed by a small number of Hindus and Buddhists. Tantra has become a synonym in the West for unbridled sexuality; however sexuality per se is only one facet of this elaborate spiritual practice, as a representation of the union of the soul with the Goddess. Rather, this attitude reflects the spiritual vacuum of mainstream Western religions when it comes to sacred sexuality. A deep study of Tantra can take a lifetime, and is not for the undisciplined or the thrill-seeker."
"This is true, but women and I mean women should know what they are getting into when they join a Tibetan Buddhist group. I know of some that loved to talk about having sex with the lama on a certain forum. Well, if that is what they want, then they are more than likely old enough to go for it, but in the end they will find that their spirituality remains wanting, and when the lama is through with them, then all kinds of problems can occur."
This is true of any relationship. When a woman or man is through with their sex partner and that partner left behind is attached they may feel sadness.
Could you please put bullet points and systematize your argument thao it is hard for me to follow.
Here is what I understand:
1) I believe that buddha did not teach tantra 2) The Pali Canon does not teach tantra 3) The kalachakra says that 11 year old girls should be used as consorts 4) The dalai lama endorses the kalachakra 5) Since the dalai lama endorses the kalachakra he also endorses sexuality with 11 year old girls 6) I do not agree that sex should be used in buddhism 7) Any time a guru has sex with a women who is a student it is because the guru is corrupt. 8) There is a possibility that there are disgusting things going on in secret 9) I am angry with what happened with my guru 10) Hinduism in America has fallen apart 11) The reason hinduism fell apart is because of corruption with gurus 12) Since Hindu gurus are corrupt that means any use of sexuality is always corrupt 13) I predict Tibetan buddhism will also fall apart due to sexuality and corruption 14) the guru relationship is like a son or daughter 15) incest is wrong 16) the guru relationship is incest 17) the guru relationship is wrong
18) If something is not disclosed to the public there may be corruption 19) Because there may be corruption everything should be disclosed to the public 20) There is corruption which is not secret 21) Because there is corruption which is not secret there is more corruption which is secret
I agree with 1 (you believe), 2 agree, don't know about 3, 4 according to your website, 5 I doubt, 6 that is your belief, 7 I disagree with, 8 agree, 9 agree, 10 don't know, 11 don't know, 12 disagree, 13 you predict, but nobody knows the future, 14 disagree, thats a loose association. Does that mean my lama is going to put me in her will? I could say my girlfriend had been a mother to me. Does that mean its incest? 15 agree, 16 disagree, 17 disagree, 18 agree, 19 disagree, 20 agree, 21 disagree though quite probable
I can't speak for whether tantric sex helps towards enlightenment. But I am a student of a Tibetan buddhist and I am getting non-sexual teachings and a meditation method which are helpful to my emotional state and happiness. They helped me overcome alcoholism and gave me support I needed with mental illness and family members dying and failing out of school with my illness.
I have not experienced any corruption from my teacher. The best thing for me to do is to stay with my teacher because her teaching is helping me. As a side benefit if I do observe corruption I may come forward and stop it.
Do you agree with me Thao? I am trying to do what is right (for me).
nice way to frame things Jeffrey, I enjoyed reading it that way.
I personally am against anything secretive, I think the only reason to keep it a secret is because there is something wrong with it. I believe that sun light is the best disinfectant.
I also disagree with teachers having sex with their students, especially in when it comes to spiritual teaching. To me at least, it just seems like a way to get laid. I think its kind of a breach of moral conduct. Also, I dont see how having sex leads to any great spiritual awakening. I mean, if I was a guru and I wanted to get laid as much as possible, thats exactly what I would say. You also see this happen in almost every cult. At some point the cult leader comes up with the idea that whomever he wants should have sex with him because it will bring them closer to something.
Ric, I agree to an extent but there is also privacy issues. I may have dead bodies or drugs in my house. But that doesn't mean that the police should be allowed to come inside my house and look.
"To me at least, it just seems like a way to get laid."
You could also say that giving dharma talks is a way to feed the ego that you are a good speaker. One must have faith that the sex is constructive. Just as one must have faith that a dharma talk is constructive. Heck most people say meditation is gazing at your navel.
There are people who climb yosemite mountain just with their bare hands without any equipment. I respect choices. If someone wants to go get a lap dance I don't give a shit. If they want the girl to dress up in a nun costume, go for it!
If I wanted to get laid I would join weight watchers and meet some women.
Jeffrey: "which lamas practice (or practiced) these sex rituals involving girls"--the Kalachakra is a gelug tradition, so it would have been gelug monks (Chopel was gelug). Whether or not those are still being practiced, we can't know for sure. However, I have no doubt that tantra with consorts is being practiced, but as you say, if it's between consenting adults (whatever the definition of "adult" is for these purposes, it used to be 15 in Tibet, I think) it's ok. Except that Thao's point is that this isn't what the Buddha taught, so it's not legit Buddhism. So we're discussing 2 issues here: the morality of using children in sex rituals against their will, and whether or not tantra ("Vajrayana") is legit Buddhism. (Just clarifying, since so much is flying back and forth in this discussion.)
Jeffrey, I don't know where you've been, but HHDL has been giving Kalachakra teachings for over a decade, maybe two, around the world. You can probably find reference to it on his website, but Thao has provided a link where he discusses the Kalachakra. I don't see anything inherently wrong with teaching the exoteric side of the Kalachakra.
Some lamas are monks, some aren't. So ok, score one for Jeffrey, rules of celibacy don't apply to non-monk lamas. That still doesn't give them the green light to abuse women, and certainly not to do so with girls if, in fact, they do participate in those rituals. But it's ok for them to have consorts. Married lamas usually use their wives as consorts for tantric sex. But the OP is about whether tantric sex is legit Buddhism, whether it's what the Buddha taught. Someone posted here months ago that the Buddha manifested in the form of Vajradhara, and was teaching tantric sex in that manifestation. I think a lot of mythology has grown up around the tantric practices to justify them. Like the one about the Buddha teaching tantra to the king of Shambhala.
I must say, I was surprised to find out that Buddhism was about sex. I had no idea that certain traditions had this aspect to them when I started attending sangha.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Using a consort in tantra isn't the same as having sex for pleasure, if sexual pleasure is what is going on then its not tanra. If a practitioner is coercing someone to have pleasure sex with them saying its for tantric purpose then they are lying just to get laid.
I don't agree to coercing or giving girls for tantric consort practice. I don't agree with teachers having sex with their students. I also don't think tantra was created just as an excuse for high lamas to drink and have sex regardless if it was taught by the Buddha or not.
Thao has raised some legitimate and important points. But there's been a lot of blurring of lines between the use of a consort in tantra and teachers coercing women to have "pleasure" sex with them as well as conflating the abuses by Hindu gurus and Buddhist gurus.
If this is really how westerners view tantra then I'm with the Sharmapa, it shouldn't be taught to us. It's quite an accomplishment if one of us westerners can just develop renunciation let alone a stable view of emptiness and bodhicitta that are supposedly requirements for the highest yoga tantras.
"whether or not tantra ("Vajrayana") is legit Buddhism"
I think it would be easier to understand if this was discussed separately from whether it is moral to rape people.
We could also question whether Theravadan buddhism is legit buddhism. We don't know if ANY teaching is sufficient to achieve liberation from suffering until we get their ourselves.
Until we are enlightened there is no way to say that Theravadan teachings lead to liberation and Tibetan (Zen, Nichiren, Pureland, Christian, Muslim, Shaman, etc) do not.
In the mahayana Shakyamuni is a historical buddha a nirmanakaya. So the question does not always mean so much what Shakyamuni taught. And in my opinion I don't care what Shakyamuni taught if it does not bring liberation. If it doesn't bring liberation then it is no different from two hobbies: mahayana and theravada.. Tennis and painting.
Comments
Ok umm? Which one of us has said the Pali Canon taught Tantra?
I object to the second part too. But tibetans such as HHDL have not raped children. You are letting your fantasies run wild and then stating it as fact.
To the first... Do you object to women in general having sex? Do you object to your mother having sex with your father? Does it matter if the sex happens in a tantric ritual? Do you object to rough sex or bondage? Between consenting adults? Do you object to french tickler condoms?
Again you are letting your fantasies run wild. Are there pirates with the Tibetan lamas? Is this a porn fantasy website, newbuddhist.com?
June should bring charges in a court of law.
Thao I agree that it should be exposed. But you haven't explained what IT is. You make specific statements based on the kalachakra teachings. And then you generalize to all of Tibetan buddhism. Hitler killed 7 million jews but that doesn't mean all germans are responsible.
What is your point on lamas not being monks, although my ex teacher, a lama calls himself a monk?
It is not your right to judge the light in which others see the buddha!
There is your assumption. You are assuming that all lamas base their empowerments on the kalachakra text. I could equally argue that all german universities are teaching that jews are inferior and should be killed due to Hitler's Mein Kampf
What is your point on lamas not being monks, although my ex teacher, a lama calls himself a monk?
Many of your questions are not worth answering Jeffrey. I think you know better, but if you desire to stand up for the tantras, then that is your right, but I wish you would stick to better questions. Questioning my likes and dislikes in regards to sex is inappropriate for this conversation. The conversation is not about me, it is about abuse by gurus.
lamas are not always monks. they can get married so obviously they are having sex. zen priests can also marry. and have sex. Its none of your business what others do in their bedrooms.
http://www.ewamchoden.org/?page_id=1351
they are all based on sex though, although other teachings are included in the tantras..
It is appropriate because you are pronouncing that your sexual taste is appropriate guide to what consenting adults do in tantra. It is none of your business.
Case closed.
http://www.ewamchoden.org/?page_id=1351 Most schools use sex in higher teachings
Thao if tantric sex is bullshit then threats of superstitious hell is also bullshit. If rape happens to anyone else in the future they need to know that they should preserve the physical evidence with the DNA and so forth and get to the police. I hope you don't believe that I agree with rape.
Case closed.
Equating abusive, coerced, indulgent sex with tantric ritual is like equating a police officer and a school shooter because they both use guns. A police officer can certainly use his gun inappropriatly and they need to be held accountable but its not the same.
And yes I do find it horrifying to entice young girls to participate in tantric sex even if done with the best of intentions not to mention abusive ones.
The Tibetan Arts of Love book you say is based on tantric ritual. Probably so, but its not tantric ritual, just as the infection of the people in Tuskegee was based on medicine but hurt people instead of helping.
Also threats of going to hell are really brainwashing techniques used to get disciples to do what you want, and if you fear the lama you will do what he asks. He claims to have the power to send to hell or the pure land. I found it interesting that my own teacher taught the hells in the second lesson. I told him that I didn't believe in such hells. But if someone like June Campbell is taught to fear the lamas as she did, and yet was abused by one, then she has fear of speaking out, and this has happened in cases. Most women do not speak out at all. Some have committed suicide. But what is it to you. I should just keep my mouth shut, it is none of my business what goes on in monasteries. Although the Dalai Lama himself said that it was our duty to speak out against abuse.
Basically, in the beginning, in Tibet that is, young girls were used, just because this has been sanitized in Western culture doesn't mean that it is a good teachings, does it? I would not doubt that it isn't still practiced the same way in India and in Tibet by lamas as it was in the texts.
I understand this but you are missing one point. Because there is some bad apples the whole barrel is not bad.
"objection. speculative. we will now take a 10 minute recess and then the witch hunt will go on."
Anytime you give any lama power there is a great, and i mean great, likelihood that he will become corrupt, and to use sex with a student is actually just wrong. I would suggest you read The Guru Papers--Masks of Authoritarian Power. The guru/disciple relationship is like a father/daughter father/son relationship, and to have sex is next to having incest. But I know, you won't read the books or go to the websites.
From http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/spiritual_teacher_guru.html
The role of a spiritual teacher or guru is often misunderstood in the West. For one thing, we lost the ancient system of studying under one teacher for many years to learn a craft like carpentry or masonry, and we are not used to this system anymore.
There is a lot of confusion about spiritual teachers; some people may believe that a guru will take over the entire responsibility of a disciple's life, leaving the pupil more like an obedient, mindless puppy.
"It seems that most students actually want to remain little children and idolize their holy daddy, and holy mommy."
Scott Mandelker
if you had read dharma wheel, you at least have some admitting that they are sexual and not symbolic. the symbolic is to cover up the real.
And I know that India has a dislike for Tantric practices, calling them black magic, and that the father of Yogananda caught him practicing tantra and told him that it was dangerous and evil. India is ashamed of tantric practices. The Tibetans should be just as ashamed, and they were enraged when it was first brought to India, but it seeped in anyway.
And I was in a group that taught kriya so I know how to channel energy, and I understand how the sexual energy is being channeled in these texts, and I know that Ramakrishna practiced tantra as did Maharishi of TM. This is not new to me. I left these groups, TM, SRF, Ramakrishna. I learned what these gurus were doing. Hinduism fell apart in America because of these practices, because women were being abused, and if enough people learn about Tibetan Buddhism, the real truth, then there may be an exodus out of it too. But actually, there are always a few that join without understanding and end up being sucked in.
Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust Like diamonds we are cut with our own dust
- John Webster
The most interesting part though is that teachings are meant to be secret and the idea that "westerners woudlnt understand."
Whenever it is a secret, its already BS. And I bet the reason is you need to be "ready" for the information, which is also BS. Thats what $cientology does, its all secretive.
And the idea that westerners wouldnt understand it is also incredibly stupid. Thats just a flimsy excuse to get away with things.
And you are right, it is all BS.
It could be that the men who wrote these tantric texts liked young girls, but it could be just like it is with war, they send young men to war because they don't know any better. A girl will put up less of a fuss, especially if you give them alcohol or sweets. But either way they have to have sex with the lama. Little girls are used to obeying men, their fathers. Even in American society, unless a 21 year old woman has been raised with strong morals and strong ego, etc. she may be too naive to understand this guru/disciple relationship and what will happen to her in the future if she stays.
"These texts describe the esoteric teachings of Tantra, a belief system which originated in India, praticed by a small number of Hindus and Buddhists. Tantra has become a synonym in the West for unbridled sexuality; however sexuality per se is only one facet of this elaborate spiritual practice, as a representation of the union of the soul with the Goddess. Rather, this attitude reflects the spiritual vacuum of mainstream Western religions when it comes to sacred sexuality. A deep study of Tantra can take a lifetime, and is not for the undisciplined or the thrill-seeker."
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/8062/abuse-of-power-in-spiritual-settings-elsewhere/p1
Thank you Vinlyn. I was trying to tell people here that Buddha did not teach the Tantras.
This is true of any relationship. When a woman or man is through with their sex partner and that partner left behind is attached they may feel sadness.
Here is what I understand:
1) I believe that buddha did not teach tantra
2) The Pali Canon does not teach tantra
3) The kalachakra says that 11 year old girls should be used as consorts
4) The dalai lama endorses the kalachakra
5) Since the dalai lama endorses the kalachakra he also endorses sexuality with 11 year old girls
6) I do not agree that sex should be used in buddhism
7) Any time a guru has sex with a women who is a student it is because the guru is corrupt.
8) There is a possibility that there are disgusting things going on in secret
9) I am angry with what happened with my guru
10) Hinduism in America has fallen apart
11) The reason hinduism fell apart is because of corruption with gurus
12) Since Hindu gurus are corrupt that means any use of sexuality is always corrupt
13) I predict Tibetan buddhism will also fall apart due to sexuality and corruption
14) the guru relationship is like a son or daughter
15) incest is wrong
16) the guru relationship is incest
17) the guru relationship is wrong
19) Because there may be corruption everything should be disclosed to the public
20) There is corruption which is not secret
21) Because there is corruption which is not secret there is more corruption which is secret
2 agree,
don't know about 3,
4 according to your website,
5 I doubt,
6 that is your belief,
7 I disagree with,
8 agree,
9 agree,
10 don't know,
11 don't know,
12 disagree,
13 you predict, but nobody knows the future,
14 disagree, thats a loose association. Does that mean my lama is going to put me in her will? I could say my girlfriend had been a mother to me. Does that mean its incest?
15 agree,
16 disagree,
17 disagree,
18 agree,
19 disagree,
20 agree,
21 disagree though quite probable
I have not experienced any corruption from my teacher. The best thing for me to do is to stay with my teacher because her teaching is helping me. As a side benefit if I do observe corruption I may come forward and stop it.
Do you agree with me Thao? I am trying to do what is right (for me).
I personally am against anything secretive, I think the only reason to keep it a secret is because there is something wrong with it. I believe that sun light is the best disinfectant.
I also disagree with teachers having sex with their students, especially in when it comes to spiritual teaching. To me at least, it just seems like a way to get laid. I think its kind of a breach of moral conduct. Also, I dont see how having sex leads to any great spiritual awakening. I mean, if I was a guru and I wanted to get laid as much as possible, thats exactly what I would say. You also see this happen in almost every cult. At some point the cult leader comes up with the idea that whomever he wants should have sex with him because it will bring them closer to something.
"To me at least, it just seems like a way to get laid."
You could also say that giving dharma talks is a way to feed the ego that you are a good speaker. One must have faith that the sex is constructive. Just as one must have faith that a dharma talk is constructive. Heck most people say meditation is gazing at your navel.
There are people who climb yosemite mountain just with their bare hands without any equipment. I respect choices. If someone wants to go get a lap dance I don't give a shit. If they want the girl to dress up in a nun costume, go for it!
If I wanted to get laid I would join weight watchers and meet some women.
This is an interesting article on Tibet and how young boys were raped by lamas in Tibet.
Jeffrey, I don't know where you've been, but HHDL has been giving Kalachakra teachings for over a decade, maybe two, around the world. You can probably find reference to it on his website, but Thao has provided a link where he discusses the Kalachakra. I don't see anything inherently wrong with teaching the exoteric side of the Kalachakra.
Some lamas are monks, some aren't. So ok, score one for Jeffrey, rules of celibacy don't apply to non-monk lamas. That still doesn't give them the green light to abuse women, and certainly not to do so with girls if, in fact, they do participate in those rituals. But it's ok for them to have consorts. Married lamas usually use their wives as consorts for tantric sex. But the OP is about whether tantric sex is legit Buddhism, whether it's what the Buddha taught. Someone posted here months ago that the Buddha manifested in the form of Vajradhara, and was teaching tantric sex in that manifestation. I think a lot of mythology has grown up around the tantric practices to justify them. Like the one about the Buddha teaching tantra to the king of Shambhala.
I must say, I was surprised to find out that Buddhism was about sex. I had no idea that certain traditions had this aspect to them when I started attending sangha.
I don't agree to coercing or giving girls for tantric consort practice. I don't agree with teachers having sex with their students. I also don't think tantra was created just as an excuse for high lamas to drink and have sex regardless if it was taught by the Buddha or not.
Thao has raised some legitimate and important points. But there's been a lot of blurring of lines between the use of a consort in tantra and teachers coercing women to have "pleasure" sex with them as well as conflating the abuses by Hindu gurus and Buddhist gurus.
If this is really how westerners view tantra then I'm with the Sharmapa, it shouldn't be taught to us. It's quite an accomplishment if one of us westerners can just develop renunciation let alone a stable view of emptiness and bodhicitta that are supposedly requirements for the highest yoga tantras.
I think it would be easier to understand if this was discussed separately from whether it is moral to rape people.
We could also question whether Theravadan buddhism is legit buddhism. We don't know if ANY teaching is sufficient to achieve liberation from suffering until we get their ourselves.
Until we are enlightened there is no way to say that Theravadan teachings lead to liberation and Tibetan (Zen, Nichiren, Pureland, Christian, Muslim, Shaman, etc) do not.
In the mahayana Shakyamuni is a historical buddha a nirmanakaya. So the question does not always mean so much what Shakyamuni taught. And in my opinion I don't care what Shakyamuni taught if it does not bring liberation. If it doesn't bring liberation then it is no different from two hobbies: mahayana and theravada.. Tennis and painting.
I do not urge Christians to discard that Jesus is the light and the only way.
I believe in choices, freedom, and consequences. And if you accuse me of liking women in bikinis you aren't far from the truth.