Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Did Buddha Teach the Tantras and Tantric Sex? And What is this Teaching?
I don't think anybody is 'bound' by morality. They pay the consequences. Choices, freedom, and consequences. A lot of this stuff is for the police. This is a separate issue than how to practice with anger or sex.
Regarding the latter I think its quite naive to think that you can overcome anger without working with that anger in some way. Same with sex. Whether you like it or not you are going to have sexual attraction, sexual fantasy, etc. Repression or overt sexuality you are going to have to deal with the issue. Whether judgementalism is binding you or whether sexual addiction is binding you they are each their own dukkha.
So granted that we can't say "oh anger I don't want that lets not have anger". Granted that we can't just get rid of our libido. Granted those things I think its debatable that you cannot use sex to overcome ATTACHMENT to sex. Buddha never said the senses were the problem. He said the attachment was the problem.
And people do conjure up anger to practice with it. There is a practice of really making a juicy convincing story. Really getting angry. I wouldn't be surprised if some people have gotten angry on this forum a whole thought world and been engrossed in the anger. And then the practice is to say PPHHHAAT and you just drop the anger in a flash.
This is also what is done in Tonglen... You breath in the anger and the blackness, and then you switch it. You don't grasp to those feelings. You touch in with your wish for enlightenment, your good heart and breath that out to sentient beings. And you don't attach to THAT. Instead you breath in again the anger or craving or whatever. Breath in the blockness and the frustration. The boredom or dullness.
"There are two problems with this. I think it was on the "Teacher-Disciple Relationship" thread that Dazzle posted that part of the bodhisattva vow was that the person taking the vow pledges to break the vow if necessary to help someone who is having trouble with the teachings, or some such. She said to watch out about that vow."
I think what you are remembering is that the bodhisattva vow takes presedence over the precepts. Here is the bodhisattva vow from the Shantideva tradition:
1. Praising yourself and belittling others because of your attachment to receiving offerings, being respected and venerated as a teacher, and gaining profit in general.
2. Not giving material aid or teaching the Dharma to those who are pained with suffering and without a protector because of your being under the influence of miserliness and wanting to amass knowledge for yourself alone.
3. Not listening to someone who has previously offended you but who declares his offense and begs forgiveness, and holding a grudge against him.
4. Condemning the teachings of the Buddha and teaching distorted views.
5. Taking offerings to the Three Jewels of Refuge for yourself by such means as stealth, robbery or devious schemes.
6. Despising the Tripitaka and saying these texts are not the teaching of the Buddha.
7. Evicting monks from a monastery or casting them out of the Sangha even if they have broken their vows, because of not forgiving them.
8. Committing any of the five heinous crimes of killing your mother, your father, an Arhat, drawing blood intentionally from a Buddha or causing a division in the Sangha by supporting and spreading sectarian views.
9. Holding views contrary to the teachings of the Buddha such as sectarianism, disbelief in the Three Jewels of Refuge, the law of cause and effect, and so forth.
10. Completely destroying any place by means of fire, bombs, pollution and black magic.
11. Teaching Sunyata to those who are not ready to understand it.
12. Turning people away from working for the full enlightenment of Buddhahood and encouraging them to work merely for their own liberation from suffering.
13. Encouraging people to abandon their vowed rules of moral conduct.
14. Causing others to hold the distorted views you might hold about the Hinayana teachings, as well as belittling the Hinayana teachings and saying that their practice does not lead to Nirvana.
15. Practising, supporting or teaching the Dharma for financial profit and fame while saying your motives are pure and that others are pursuing Dharma for such base aims.
16. Telling others, even though you may have very little or no understanding of Sunyata, that if they obtain as profound an understanding as you have, that then they will become as great and as highly realized as you are.
17. Taking gifts from others and encouraging others to give you things originally intended as offerings to the Three Jewels of Refuge.
18. Taking anything away from those monks who are practicing meditation and giving it to those who are merely reciting texts."
"But I don't think it's fair to people who have suffered from misconduct, for practitioners to deny that their suffering happened. I don't know how students of this tradition would reconcile these unpleasant realities with their practice, but I guess that's up to them. It's really caused me to call everything into question, I can tell you that. So we each have to deal with it in our own way."
I feel this way too. I know that I am not responsible for things that I have not done. My teacher is not responsible for things that she has not done.
I don't think anybody is 'bound' by morality. They pay the consequences. Choices, freedom, and consequences.
Monks and any practitioners are bound by the vows they take. That's being bound by morality. But the tantric view is that highly-realized beings see reality differently; unrealized beings function in mundane reality, higher beings have higher perception, and so the mundane rules don't apply to them. Stephen Batchelor reported that HHDL held fast to this principle when they were discussing the problem of lama abuse, even after HHDL said that abuses should be reported to the media and to the police. This "antinomian" view, as scholars refer to it, is part of Vajrayana tradition.
Tantra advocates using sex to overcome attachment to sex. That's different from Tonglen, etc. Sure, in a loose sense, everything is fodder for practice. That's not the sense of "use" Thao meant. In TB, only with sex does one deliberately fan the flames of lust in order to conquer that "defilement". One doesn't fan the flames of anger in order to transform anger into bliss, for example.
I definitely would criticize the idea that one should not set boundaries for themselves and another being. Whether that other being is the king of england or a lama, you still have an expectation for their behaviour. Morality is relative to suffering.
You can practice tonglen with any state including lust.
I definitely would criticize the idea that one should not set boundaries for themselves and another being. Whether that other being is the king of england or a lama, you still have an expectation for their behaviour. Morality is relative to suffering.
I agree, Jeffrey, but that's not how tantric Buddhism works, and that's one reason problems crop up. After his meeting with HHDL and others on the subject of abuse in TB, Stephen Batchelor wrote an essay that you can check out at the url below. The part relevant to the morality issue is this: "[The Dalai Lama] belongs to a tradition that, in order to create the kind of faith needed for Vajrayana practices to be effective, states that any unethical traits observed in one's tantric guru must be interpreted either as projections of one's own impure vision or the incomprehensible activities of Buddhahood."
But the Buddha never behaved incomprehensibly. In any case, this thing that opens the door to abuse. Being above mundane morality is part and parcel of higher tantric doctrine.
I definitely would criticize the idea that one should not set boundaries for themselves and another being. Whether that other being is the king of england or a lama, you still have an expectation for their behaviour.
Yay, Jeffrey!
You can practice tonglen with any state including lust.
That wasn't my point. Yes, you can. I was saying tonglen is different from the Vajrayana, that says you can transform base emotions and drives into bliss or Enlightenment. It's alchemical. In tonglen you do visualize negativity transforming into positivity, but on a completely different level.
In any case I wouldn't practice the vajrayana. No doubt.
Clearly it's something to be entered into only by fully-informed students. And it's not for everyone (if it's for anyone at all). Yours is a wise course. You know what's right for you, and what isn't.
interesting conversation with Stephen Batchelor and the Dalai Lama.
Here is what the Kalachakra text says:
"The Kalachakra Tantra urges the yogi to render the mudra pliant with intoxicating liquor: “Wine is essential for the wisdom consort [prajna]. ... Any mudra at all, even those who are still not willing, can be procured with drink” (Grünwedel, Kalacakra III, p. 147). It is only a small step from this to the use of direct force. There are also texts, which advise “that if a woman refuses sexual union she must be forced to do so” (Bhattacharyya, 1982, p. 125)."
These are other secrets that the lamas won't tell you about.
gurus have no place in the practice of the Dharma; that's vedic/brahmic tradition. so called Tibetan Buddhism is basically a combination of Buddhism, Yoga and Bön; shouldn't be confused with Buddhism proper.
The chakras do not refer to anything physical. You can not dissect a body and find the chakras. They refer to subtle energies that are subjective experience. Bodhicitta is also a subjective experience.
I disagree; there's a correlation with chakras and (at least) the nervous, lymphatic, circulatory and respiratory systems.
basically they are how an advanced (but not technological) meditator "sees" the human anatomy for many purposes... most helpful. this should be studied by science with an open mind.
gurus have no place in the practice of the Dharma; that's vedic/brahmic tradition. so called Tibetan Buddhism is basically a combination of Buddhism, Yoga and Bön; shouldn't be confused with Buddhism proper.
The chakras do not refer to anything physical. You can not dissect a body and find the chakras. They refer to subtle energies that are subjective experience. Bodhicitta is also a subjective experience.
I disagree; there's a correlation with chakras and (at least) the nervous, lymphatic, circulatory and respiratory systems.
basically they are how an advanced (but not technological) meditator "sees" the human anatomy for many purposes... most helpful. this should be studied by science with an open mind.
But this is what we call abuse in Western countries, but obviously Tibetans do not consider it abuse and neither does anyone here. If anything smells, sh----, it is this. But I have had my say, and you all are clinging to a tradition that Buddha never taught, and I am really sickened when I think of how degrading Buddha's teachings have become, and so I take my leave of this board.
Recently a journalist investigating the phenomenon of Tibetan Buddhism, stumbled across some alarming evidence concerning paedophilia in a Tibetan monastery. Not so long ago, a young boy aged 7 had been inducted into a monastery directly under the Dalai Lama in the hills of West Bengal . Amazingly he had himself insisted that he had wanted to go to a monastery for further studies. The parents of the boy had been naïve, even though closely associated with the monastery for many generations, until the mystery was unraveled. The boy had stayed there for about eight months and by the time he fled the monastery, he had been scarred for life. Initially he had been extremely reticent about telling his parents concerning what had happened. But slowly the truth had emerged.
The monastery he had gone to was a den of vice, even though it claimed to be of the Gelugpa persuasion – 'those who uphold virtue'. The Dalai Lama is the head of this tradition!
What transpired is briefly as follows: Every night the elder monks would entice the novice monks away from their beds offering them sweets and then rape - sodomise -- them to their hearts' content, overpowering any resistance the young ones would put up. Throughout the nights the monastery would be filled with the subdued sobbing of these unwilling victims of sexual lust. But there was nothing they could really do about it as their parents had sent them there from afar with the hope that they would be cared for well and taught the paths of virtue.
"The Kalachakra Tantra urges the yogi to render the mudra pliant with intoxicating liquor: “Wine is essential for the wisdom consort [prajna]. ... Any mudra at all, even those who are still not willing, can be procured with drink” (Grünwedel, Kalacakra III, p. 147).
Thats what they taught in the fraternities in college
Good point Vincenzi. I was not meaning to contradict that line of reasoning. I had read similar things. I was making a different point which is that much of the nature of the chakras cannot be unravelled by disection or microscopes. As a person has the ability to balance on a tightrope we can say the cerebellum is responsible. But there is the experience of balancing in itself which doesn't lend itself to dissection so easily as if the cerebellum is a thermostat.
Guru means teacher. So what vincenzi is saying is that Tibetan teachers do not have any place in buddhism. Opinions are like.....something. everyones got one!
Good point Vincenzi. I was not meaning to contradict that line of reasoning. I had read similar things. I was making a different point which is that much of the nature of the chakras cannot be unravelled by disection or microscopes. As a person has the ability to balance on a tightrope we can say the cerebellum is responsible. But there is the experience of balancing in itself which doesn't lend itself to dissection so easily as if the cerebellum is a thermostat.
they are points of focus for meditative techniques that have a correspondence with different regions of the nervous system.
divide the spinal column in seven, each section corresponding to a chakra (which means circle, like forming a cilinder/column). their general functions are as described in the chakra system.
Thats what they taught in the fraternities in college
Yes, and that's why there have been so many legal cases involving frat rats, and why some fraternities have been banned from come college campuses.
Thao, don't you think the police should get involved in that case?
Yes, but these traditions most likely aren't practiced in the West. If they're still practiced at all.
Good point Vincenzi. I was not meaning to contradict that line of reasoning. I had read similar things. I was making a different point which is that much of the nature of the chakras cannot be unravelled by disection or microscopes.
Electromagnetism isn't dissectable. It's possible that if someone passed a very sensitive electric probe over the chakras, that their existence could be noted.
"The Kalachakra Tantra urges the yogi to render the mudra pliant with intoxicating liquor: “Wine is essential for the wisdom consort [prajna]. ... Any mudra at all, even those who are still not willing, can be procured with drink” (Grünwedel, Kalacakra III, p. 147).
Thats what they taught in the fraternities in college
They sure did. LOL. I remember having a date with a guy that gave me champagne. he thought it would work on me I am sure, but it made me childish, and so i was doing childish games like swinging on swings and skipping around. i thought it was funny because i knew what he was trying to do.
the lamas in tb are not to be questioned. their authority is just that, supreme authority. i was told by my teacher to consider him Buddha and to not argue or question the teachings. this is not what buddha taught.
What is really bothering me now about TB is that they have a Law of Inversion. I have read some of it and may have posted it, but anything that is evil they engage in in order to rise above it, but it really doesn't work. So they not only drink alcohol, have sex, but eat feces, drink urine, and can go as far as ritual murders. I believe that China has only stopped some things in Tibet but not allowing children to join the monasteries, but in the book, Waiting for the Dalia Lama, it says that when the Chinese leave they do what they want and bring out photos of the Dalai Lama, which are forbidden. In India, they do what they want as well. I have no idea what is still be practiced outside of sex with a consort.
But I noticed in reading the Kalachakra that the woman doesn't get enlightened by any of this. I only say this because there is no mention of how she becomes enlightened. She is just an energy source for the lama. i hope i am wrong. i know in India they believe that you have to come back as a man in order to become enlightened. I wonder how much of this has to do with a male having semen which is used in a way that makes him enlightened? maybe CW knows.
Great by the way that you have taken classes at college on this CW.
The course didn't get into the anatomical details of saving the sperm, i.e. avoiding ejaculation. But I read elsewhere that it's about redirecting the sperm (and the energy of the orgasm, I suppose) upward, to raise the Kundalini, which brings about an enlightened state, or a bliss state. Taoist literature says there's an equivalent for women. Maybe there is in TB, but I haven't heard of it.
True, Jeffrey, but we can open the eyes of those who may think of following or who are unhappy where they are but feel they have to be loyal to the guru.
either way, TB is begging for a schism within the sangha (community of buddhists) if they keep this practices.
I agree. I cannot respect Tibetan Buddhism under these situations, and as a result am not interested in being open-minded about it after this revelation. Immorality is immorality...no excuses. This should not be tolerated, and shame on any Buddhist leaders who don't speak out against it...in fact, if they don't speak out against it, they're not Buddhist LEADERS.
Remember that these are allegations. I think the only thing proven we have to go on is the cases of the Tibetan Buddhists own statements which we may disagree with. Without real world information our fantasies may go beyond the bounds of what is actually occuring. A commentary on the kalachakra may not be correct whatsoever.
The guru practice may be misunderstood. Again I reserve judgement I am not saying IS.
Everyone is free to give or withhold respect as they see fit. Regarding that I wholeheartedly agree. And I think this whole area needs to be scrutinized both so we can hear what the Tibetan buddhists can say for themselves. AND to blow the lid off of this thing and possibly put some people behind bars and on the sex offenders list.
Here is an example of using anger in dharma practice. Trungpa Rinpoche:
"We cannot con the existing experience of life; we cannot con our experiences or change them by having some unrealistic belief that things are going to be okay, that in the end everything is going to be beautiful. If we take that approach, then things are not going to be okay. For the very reason that we expect things to be good and beautiful, they won’t be. In a genuine approach to spirituality, we are not looking for a kick, for inspiration, or bliss. Instead, we are digging into life’s irritations, diving into the irritations and making a home out of that. Then the irritations become a source of great joy, transcendental joy, because there is no pain involved at all."
I don't have any objections to sexuality in spirituality. Between consenting adults. I am not the purity police. If someone wants to call themselves a buddhist and dance around in costumes drinking alcohol and making war hoops it is none of my business. That is not under the heading of morality in my book.
I don't have any problem with devotional practices with a guru. That is the choice of the parties involved. And choices have consequences. In turn education is what is needed to prevent confused expectations* (see star below). Education of the dangers. In my case systematic rational argumentation is more convincing to me.
For example if I don't believe a commentary then you can turn blue in the face but you won't convince me. I am also pretty convinced that many exist to tear down people and therefore I require evidence rather than allegations. For the same reasons that the law in civilized countries requires evidence before conviction.
Mainly I think the law of the land in most western countries would and should be enforcing the kinds of morality which I am concerned with. If not then we should consider changing the laws in tandem with warning people of dangers of gurus.
As far as I know the gurus are living in India or the west and I would be surprised if there were no laws concerning rape and sexuality with minors.
*material evidence is needed for convincing argumentation, and the police are needed when such evidence is showing illegality.
Its basicly (aside from allegations of rape etc) is like say there is a southwestern christian congregations that is a fusion of biblical learning and traditional native american religion.
Now they have religious ceremonies where they take peyote and trip.
Is this Jesus teaching? Should the other Christians condemn peyote in the worship of Christ?
I don't see how that is different from sexuality in buddhism. I do think the guru thing is kind of weird to be honest. As such people need to be careful rather than foolish. I wouldn't treat my guru as the buddha unless she is representing compassion and wisdom to me. That is how I would recognize a buddha. From my heart.
In the mahamudra teachings 'sensitivity' which is an aspect of the unconditioned mind.. the mind we have now beyond analysis of what that mind is. Just sensitivity. Intuitive understanding which upon your own inspection of your mind you become closer to what sensitivity is.
Sensitivity is thought to be a balance of prajna and sradda. Prajna is the intellect or messages you are getting. Sradda is how you embody those messages and wisdom into your being. How you make that insight into the world?
So when you have too much faith in the guru you are probably one half of you in denial anyhow. The guru is just the guru. Do you think they are perfect? Do you have a fantasy that they are a bodhisattva? Does someone else who wants to tear that guru down have a fantasy that they are evil? Who is that guru?
In such cases by opening to the situation. The prajna will assert itself over the sradda and come back in balance. There is always a nagging dukkha telling you that the balance is off. Thats the whole path. Balancing these factors and the way to do that is through opening to the situation and investing in the nature of mind rather than the ego. The ego doesn't want to feel any pain. The ego doesn't want to question the guru, because of the security of believing the guru will take care of your enlightenment.
The guru is not going to do it for you in my experience. In my experience my guru provides support in response to suffering. Clarifies questions based on her long experience with buddhist scripture along with meditating upon such questions in conjunction with 30 years or so hands on experience with other practitioners. The guru is an example of a person who goes into a situation and realizes the situation is alive and unpredictable. Sensitive and aware letting go of clinging and forcing.
The allegations thus are in contradiction to my own experience with my guru. My sanghamates are some of the gentle people who I know. Very passionate about their tradition and somewhat brainwashed (laughs) though I am sure we are all just trying to impress eachother with how 'good' we are.
I think it should be deprecated too. Or at least removed from the belief that Thee Buddha taught it and call it what it is. Be open about the practices, but that that won't happen.
The book, The Commentary of the Kalachakra Tantra was what the author learned from the Dalai Lama, so the Dalai Lama does teach it. This book was written around 1982, so since then, who knows? But if he learned this back then, then the Dalai Lama is more than likely still practicing it.
"tibetan folk religion" or "contemporary bön" would be more accurate names.
lets try with points: 1) no one, specially underage children, should be forced to live as monks. it is a personal decision. 2) for tantric sex to be effective, both partners have to on an equal level; there should be no guru authoritarian non-sense. 3) trishna is trishna, if a "buddhist" tradition says trishna is liberating it is not buddhist at all. 4) secrecy of the Dharma doesn't follow the boddhisattva vow. 5) authority figures have no say on practitioners of other schools, and may and should be called upon if in fault (see other points).
Its basicly (aside from allegations of rape etc) is like say there is a southwestern christian congregations that is a fusion of biblical learning and traditional native american religion.
Now they have religious ceremonies where they take peyote and trip.
Is this Jesus teaching? Should the other Christians condemn peyote in the worship of Christ?
I don't see how that is different from sexuality in buddhism. I do think the guru thing is kind of weird to be honest.
This is an interesting point. The thing about peyote use (I didn't know it was a fusion of Christianity and Native traditions) is that it's used as a sacrament. Christianity uses wine as a sacrament. So Native Americans have substituted a traditional substance of their own for the European tradition of wine as sacrament
The "guru thing" is only supposed to apply to higher yoga tantra. Gurus who tell their disciples who are studying more basic teachings, or just getting coaching on meditation technique, that they need to regard the guru as a Buddha are deliberately trying to set up the students. Anyone who encounters a lama or teacher who says he/she should be regarded as a Buddha and any orders are to be followed without question should look for another guru. That's a huge red flag. That's what I've learned on this forum.
And further on this topic, I just discovered a really good book on the characteristics of an appropriate student-teacher relationship (and the characteristics of a bad one), by Alex Berzin. It looks like, from the table of contents on Amazon, that he discusses the good, the bad, and the ugly, along with a chapter on how Tibetans expect their lamas to behave, which should be a good guide. When I get the book, I'll post a thread on it.
"Wise Teacher, Wise Student: Tibetan Approaches to a Healthy Relationship" is the name of the book. This is a really constructive response to all the "allegations" and the rare lawsuits on "lama abuse". Instead of denying it, write a guide for students on how to avoid it.
Teaching it and practicing it are two different things. Is there any more info given about that?
Yes, this needs to be clarified. I find it difficult to believe that HHDL has done rituals that involve having sex with minors against their will. Maybe he taught the esoteric side of the Kalachakra as ancient lore, not current practice (let's hope).
:eek2:
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
1) no one, specially underage children, should be forced to live as monks. it is a personal decision.
I agree for today, lets remember though that in old Tibet joining a monastery was about the only way for a child to get an education and some status. Now that a modern, secular education is available for young Tibetans I would expect the number of youth entering a monastery will naturally decline.
I have no disagreement on any of your other points.
1) no one, specially underage children, should be forced to live as monks. it is a personal decision.
I agree for today, lets remember though that in old Tibet joining a monastery was about the only way for a child to get an education and some status. Now that a modern, secular education is available for young Tibetans I would expect the number of youth entering a monastery will naturally decline.
Sending a child to a monastery in old Tibet was a form of tax. Now it's regarded as a tradition. Tibetans in exile seem to forget that it used to be forced. Also, it's an option for poor families who have too many mouths to feed. So families still give away a child to the monastery out of financial need. And some kids actually want to go; if they have an older relative who's a monk, whom they admire, they ask to be sent to a monastery.
So if the practice of having children as monks is to change, one thing that would have to be addressed is the poverty issue.
I "don't buy" the poverty and education reasoning; the most efficient way will be for people who cann't afford children to have some reproductive responsibility!
I "don't buy" the poverty and education reasoning; the most efficient way will be for people who cann't afford children to have some reproductive responsibility!
haha! For sure, Vincenzi! But some people are too poor even to buy condoms on a regular basis. In some parts of the world, people live on the economic edge. I wonder what kind of family planning education and outreach there is in India and Nepal.
Commentary of the Kalacakra Tantra by Geshe Lharampa Ngawang Dhargyey
“I received the Kalacakra empowerment first from Lhatshun Dorje Chang. He was a very great lama in Tibet, a Root-guru of the Junior Tutor of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and was considers a sage by the lamas of all spiritual traditions in Tibet. His Holiness has frequently said, “it is a very great pity that It was not possible for Lhatsun Dorje Chang to come to India.”
I also received the Kalacakra empowerment three or four times from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. His Holiness received the empowerment and the teaching frm his Senior Tutor, Kyabje Yongdzin Ling Dorje Chang. Kyabeje Yongdzin Ling Dorje Chang received the empowerment and teaching of the Kalacakra from Kyabje Kangsar Dorje Chang. It was said that he was a manifestation of Manjusri. The lineage goes back in an unbroken succession from lama to lama to the Buddha Vajradhara (Dorje Chang). Within the context of tantra, it is necessary for there to occur this unbroken continuum of the lineage which always goes back to Vajradhara. .. His Holiness asked me, not once but twice, saying that it would be most beneficial if I were to come to the West and especially to give these Kalacakra teachings, thinking of the great benefit of following the instructions of one’s guru, I decided that this would be good to do.” Pages 106-161.
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Here's a link to 'Taking the Kalachakra Initiation" by Dr. Alexander Berzin. Its a multichapter book and looks like it goes through the ins and outs of Kalachakra. I haven't gone through it, it looks quite extensive, but he's a generally respected scholar of Tibetan Buddhism so I think this is probably a pretty fair accounting of what the Kalachakra is about if anyone is interested in a different view than the one presented on this thread.
Comments
Regarding the latter I think its quite naive to think that you can overcome anger without working with that anger in some way. Same with sex. Whether you like it or not you are going to have sexual attraction, sexual fantasy, etc. Repression or overt sexuality you are going to have to deal with the issue. Whether judgementalism is binding you or whether sexual addiction is binding you they are each their own dukkha.
So granted that we can't say "oh anger I don't want that lets not have anger". Granted that we can't just get rid of our libido. Granted those things I think its debatable that you cannot use sex to overcome ATTACHMENT to sex. Buddha never said the senses were the problem. He said the attachment was the problem.
And people do conjure up anger to practice with it. There is a practice of really making a juicy convincing story. Really getting angry. I wouldn't be surprised if some people have gotten angry on this forum a whole thought world and been engrossed in the anger. And then the practice is to say PPHHHAAT and you just drop the anger in a flash.
This is also what is done in Tonglen... You breath in the anger and the blackness, and then you switch it. You don't grasp to those feelings. You touch in with your wish for enlightenment, your good heart and breath that out to sentient beings. And you don't attach to THAT. Instead you breath in again the anger or craving or whatever. Breath in the blockness and the frustration. The boredom or dullness.
This is called taking and sending and it is one of the main ways to develope compassion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen
I think what you are remembering is that the bodhisattva vow takes presedence over the precepts. Here is the bodhisattva vow from the Shantideva tradition:
http://www.khandro.net/bud_bodhisattva_vow.htm
"We pledge to AVOID:
1. Praising yourself and belittling others because of your attachment to receiving offerings, being respected and venerated as a teacher, and gaining profit in general.
2. Not giving material aid or teaching the Dharma to those who are pained with suffering and without a protector because of your being under the influence of miserliness and wanting to amass knowledge for yourself alone.
3. Not listening to someone who has previously offended you but who declares his offense and begs forgiveness, and holding a grudge against him.
4. Condemning the teachings of the Buddha and teaching distorted views.
5. Taking offerings to the Three Jewels of Refuge for yourself by such means as stealth, robbery or devious schemes.
6. Despising the Tripitaka and saying these texts are not the teaching of the Buddha.
7. Evicting monks from a monastery or casting them out of the Sangha even if they have broken their vows, because of not forgiving them.
8. Committing any of the five heinous crimes of killing your mother, your father, an Arhat, drawing blood intentionally from a Buddha or causing a division in the Sangha by supporting and spreading sectarian views.
9. Holding views contrary to the teachings of the Buddha such as sectarianism, disbelief in the Three Jewels of Refuge, the law of cause and effect, and so forth.
10. Completely destroying any place by means of fire, bombs, pollution and black magic.
11. Teaching Sunyata to those who are not ready to understand it.
12. Turning people away from working for the full enlightenment of Buddhahood and encouraging them to work merely for their own liberation from suffering.
13. Encouraging people to abandon their vowed rules of moral conduct.
14. Causing others to hold the distorted views you might hold about the Hinayana teachings, as well as belittling the Hinayana teachings and saying that their practice does not lead to Nirvana.
15. Practising, supporting or teaching the Dharma for financial profit and fame while saying your motives are pure and that others are pursuing Dharma for such base aims.
16. Telling others, even though you may have very little or no understanding of Sunyata, that if they obtain as profound an understanding as you have, that then they will become as great and as highly realized as you are.
17. Taking gifts from others and encouraging others to give you things originally intended as offerings to the Three Jewels of Refuge.
18. Taking anything away from those monks who are practicing meditation and giving it to those who are merely reciting texts."
"But I don't think it's fair to people who have suffered from misconduct, for practitioners to deny that their suffering happened. I don't know how students of this tradition would reconcile these unpleasant realities with their practice, but I guess that's up to them. It's really caused me to call everything into question, I can tell you that. So we each have to deal with it in our own way."
I feel this way too. I know that I am not responsible for things that I have not done. My teacher is not responsible for things that she has not done.
Tantra advocates using sex to overcome attachment to sex. That's different from Tonglen, etc. Sure, in a loose sense, everything is fodder for practice. That's not the sense of "use" Thao meant. In TB, only with sex does one deliberately fan the flames of lust in order to conquer that "defilement". One doesn't fan the flames of anger in order to transform anger into bliss, for example.
You can practice tonglen with any state including lust.
"[The Dalai Lama] belongs to a tradition that, in order to create the kind of faith needed for Vajrayana practices to be effective, states that any unethical traits observed in one's tantric guru must be interpreted either as projections of one's own impure vision or the incomprehensible activities of Buddhahood."
But the Buddha never behaved incomprehensibly. In any case, this thing that opens the door to abuse. Being above mundane morality is part and parcel of higher tantric doctrine.
http://www.westernchanfellowship.org/shaping-the-future.html
In any case I wouldn't practice the vajrayana. No doubt.
Here is what the Kalachakra text says:
"The Kalachakra Tantra urges the yogi to render the mudra pliant with intoxicating liquor: “Wine is essential for the wisdom consort [prajna]. ... Any mudra at all, even those who are still not willing, can be procured with drink” (Grünwedel, Kalacakra III, p. 147). It is only a small step from this to the use of direct force. There are also texts, which advise “that if a woman refuses sexual union she must be forced to do so” (Bhattacharyya, 1982, p. 125)."
These are other secrets that the lamas won't tell you about.
Clearly Buddha would never had taught this.
so called Tibetan Buddhism is basically a combination of Buddhism, Yoga and Bön; shouldn't be confused with Buddhism proper. I disagree; there's a correlation with chakras and (at least) the nervous, lymphatic, circulatory and respiratory systems.
basically they are how an advanced (but not technological) meditator "sees" the human anatomy for many purposes... most helpful. this should be studied by science with an open mind.
http://www.lamashree.org/dalailama_08_c ... teries.htm
But this is what we call abuse in Western countries, but obviously Tibetans do not consider it abuse and neither does anyone here. If anything smells, sh----, it is this. But I have had my say, and you all are clinging to a tradition that Buddha never taught, and I am really sickened when I think of how degrading Buddha's teachings have become, and so I take my leave of this board.
Recently a journalist investigating the phenomenon of Tibetan Buddhism, stumbled across some alarming evidence concerning paedophilia in a Tibetan monastery. Not so long ago, a young boy aged 7 had been inducted into a monastery directly under the Dalai Lama in the hills of West Bengal . Amazingly he had himself insisted that he had wanted to go to a monastery for further studies. The parents of the boy had been naïve, even though closely associated with the monastery for many generations, until the mystery was unraveled. The boy had stayed there for about eight months and by the time he fled the monastery, he had been scarred for life. Initially he had been extremely reticent about telling his parents concerning what had happened. But slowly the truth had emerged.
The monastery he had gone to was a den of vice, even though it claimed to be of the Gelugpa persuasion – 'those who uphold virtue'. The Dalai Lama is the head of this tradition!
What transpired is briefly as follows: Every night the elder monks would entice the novice monks away from their beds offering them sweets and then rape - sodomise -- them to their hearts' content, overpowering any resistance the young ones would put up. Throughout the nights the monastery would be filled with the subdued sobbing of these unwilling victims of sexual lust. But there was nothing they could really do about it as their parents had sent them there from afar with the hope that they would be cared for well and taught the paths of virtue.
Thats what they taught in the fraternities in college
Indeed. I am curious and have misgivings.
divide the spinal column in seven, each section corresponding to a chakra (which means circle, like forming a cilinder/column).
their general functions are as described in the chakra system.
@Jeffrey
sure, guru is teacher, but it has developed a meaning of unquestionable authority.
let me paraphrase: "teachers with unquestionable authority have no place in Buddhism".
agree or not?
the lamas in tb are not to be questioned. their authority is just that, supreme authority. i was told by my teacher to consider him Buddha and to not argue or question the teachings. this is not what buddha taught.
But I noticed in reading the Kalachakra that the woman doesn't get enlightened by any of this. I only say this because there is no mention of how she becomes enlightened. She is just an energy source for the lama. i hope i am wrong. i know in India they believe that you have to come back as a man in order to become enlightened. I wonder how much of this has to do with a male having semen which is used in a way that makes him enlightened? maybe CW knows.
Great by the way that you have taken classes at college on this CW.
agree or not?"
For me yes. But I have no right to impose my view on a follower who wants to give such authority.
this may be not be "politically correct", but I'm seeing Tibetan Buddhism as a tradition that should be deprecated.
@Jeffrey
either way, TB is begging for a schism within the sangha (community of buddhists) if they keep this practices.
The guru practice may be misunderstood. Again I reserve judgement I am not saying IS.
Everyone is free to give or withhold respect as they see fit. Regarding that I wholeheartedly agree. And I think this whole area needs to be scrutinized both so we can hear what the Tibetan buddhists can say for themselves. AND to blow the lid off of this thing and possibly put some people behind bars and on the sex offenders list.
"We cannot con the existing experience of life; we cannot con our experiences or change them by having some unrealistic belief that things are going to be okay, that in the end everything is going to be beautiful. If we take that approach, then things are not going to be okay. For the very reason that we expect things to be good and beautiful, they won’t be. In a genuine approach to spirituality, we are not looking for a kick, for inspiration, or bliss. Instead, we are digging into life’s irritations, diving into the irritations and making a home out of that. Then the irritations become a source of great joy, transcendental joy, because there is no pain involved at all."
As far as I know there already is a schism.
I don't have any problem with devotional practices with a guru. That is the choice of the parties involved. And choices have consequences. In turn education is what is needed to prevent confused expectations* (see star below). Education of the dangers. In my case systematic rational argumentation is more convincing to me.
For example if I don't believe a commentary then you can turn blue in the face but you won't convince me. I am also pretty convinced that many exist to tear down people and therefore I require evidence rather than allegations. For the same reasons that the law in civilized countries requires evidence before conviction.
Mainly I think the law of the land in most western countries would and should be enforcing the kinds of morality which I am concerned with. If not then we should consider changing the laws in tandem with warning people of dangers of gurus.
As far as I know the gurus are living in India or the west and I would be surprised if there were no laws concerning rape and sexuality with minors.
*material evidence is needed for convincing argumentation, and the police are needed when such evidence is showing illegality.
Now they have religious ceremonies where they take peyote and trip.
Is this Jesus teaching? Should the other Christians condemn peyote in the worship of Christ?
I don't see how that is different from sexuality in buddhism. I do think the guru thing is kind of weird to be honest. As such people need to be careful rather than foolish. I wouldn't treat my guru as the buddha unless she is representing compassion and wisdom to me. That is how I would recognize a buddha. From my heart.
In the mahamudra teachings 'sensitivity' which is an aspect of the unconditioned mind.. the mind we have now beyond analysis of what that mind is. Just sensitivity. Intuitive understanding which upon your own inspection of your mind you become closer to what sensitivity is.
Sensitivity is thought to be a balance of prajna and sradda. Prajna is the intellect or messages you are getting. Sradda is how you embody those messages and wisdom into your being. How you make that insight into the world?
So when you have too much faith in the guru you are probably one half of you in denial anyhow. The guru is just the guru. Do you think they are perfect? Do you have a fantasy that they are a bodhisattva? Does someone else who wants to tear that guru down have a fantasy that they are evil? Who is that guru?
In such cases by opening to the situation. The prajna will assert itself over the sradda and come back in balance. There is always a nagging dukkha telling you that the balance is off. Thats the whole path. Balancing these factors and the way to do that is through opening to the situation and investing in the nature of mind rather than the ego. The ego doesn't want to feel any pain. The ego doesn't want to question the guru, because of the security of believing the guru will take care of your enlightenment.
The guru is not going to do it for you in my experience. In my experience my guru provides support in response to suffering. Clarifies questions based on her long experience with buddhist scripture along with meditating upon such questions in conjunction with 30 years or so hands on experience with other practitioners. The guru is an example of a person who goes into a situation and realizes the situation is alive and unpredictable. Sensitive and aware letting go of clinging and forcing.
The allegations thus are in contradiction to my own experience with my guru. My sanghamates are some of the gentle people who I know. Very passionate about their tradition and somewhat brainwashed (laughs) though I am sure we are all just trying to impress eachother with how 'good' we are.
The book, The Commentary of the Kalachakra Tantra was what the author learned from the Dalai Lama, so the Dalai Lama does teach it. This book was written around 1982, so since then, who knows? But if he learned this back then, then the Dalai Lama is more than likely still practicing it.
lets try with points:
1) no one, specially underage children, should be forced to live as monks. it is a personal decision.
2) for tantric sex to be effective, both partners have to on an equal level; there should be no guru authoritarian non-sense.
3) trishna is trishna, if a "buddhist" tradition says trishna is liberating it is not buddhist at all.
4) secrecy of the Dharma doesn't follow the boddhisattva vow.
5) authority figures have no say on practitioners of other schools, and may and should be called upon if in fault (see other points).
The "guru thing" is only supposed to apply to higher yoga tantra. Gurus who tell their disciples who are studying more basic teachings, or just getting coaching on meditation technique, that they need to regard the guru as a Buddha are deliberately trying to set up the students. Anyone who encounters a lama or teacher who says he/she should be regarded as a Buddha and any orders are to be followed without question should look for another guru. That's a huge red flag. That's what I've learned on this forum.
And further on this topic, I just discovered a really good book on the characteristics of an appropriate student-teacher relationship (and the characteristics of a bad one), by Alex Berzin. It looks like, from the table of contents on Amazon, that he discusses the good, the bad, and the ugly, along with a chapter on how Tibetans expect their lamas to behave, which should be a good guide. When I get the book, I'll post a thread on it.
"Wise Teacher, Wise Student: Tibetan Approaches to a Healthy Relationship" is the name of the book. This is a really constructive response to all the "allegations" and the rare lawsuits on "lama abuse". Instead of denying it, write a guide for students on how to avoid it.
:eek2:
I have no disagreement on any of your other points.
So if the practice of having children as monks is to change, one thing that would have to be addressed is the poverty issue.
I "don't buy" the poverty and education reasoning; the most efficient way will be for people who cann't afford children to have some reproductive responsibility!
“I received the Kalacakra empowerment first from Lhatshun Dorje Chang. He was a very great lama in Tibet, a Root-guru of the Junior Tutor of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and was considers a sage by the lamas of all spiritual traditions in Tibet. His Holiness has frequently said, “it is a very great pity that It was not possible for Lhatsun Dorje Chang to come to India.”
I also received the Kalacakra empowerment three or four times from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. His Holiness received the empowerment and the teaching frm his Senior Tutor, Kyabje Yongdzin Ling Dorje Chang. Kyabeje Yongdzin Ling Dorje Chang received the empowerment and teaching of the Kalacakra from Kyabje Kangsar Dorje Chang. It was said that he was a manifestation of Manjusri. The lineage goes back in an unbroken succession from lama to lama to the Buddha Vajradhara (Dorje Chang). Within the context of tantra, it is necessary for there to occur this unbroken continuum of the lineage which always goes back to Vajradhara. ..
His Holiness asked me, not once but twice, saying that it would be most beneficial if I were to come to the West and especially to give these Kalacakra teachings, thinking of the great benefit of following the instructions of one’s guru, I decided that this would be good to do.” Pages 106-161.
actually, AFAIK there's free condoms in India.
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/group.html_57387645.html