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Did Buddha Teach the Tantras and Tantric Sex? And What is this Teaching?
Dalai Lama, although you insist that Tibetan Buddhism is a celibate and woman-friendly religion, women are sexually abused and treated in a sexist manner during the higher rites of the Kalachakra-Tantra in order for the initiates to achieve spiritual, worldly and patriarchal power.
At the highest levels of the secret initiations of the Kalachakra-Tantra sexual rites are practised, the objective of which is to transform sexuality into worldly and spiritual power. According to the original texts the women used for such rites represent a form of sexual energy, whereby the age is of great importance. One begins with eleven year old girls. In levels 8 to 11 of the initiations only one woman is used; in levels 12 to 15, the Ganachakra as it is known, a total of 10 women participate in addition to the “master and his initiates”. It is a duty of the pupil to offer his Lama these women as a gift. Women are purely “energy providers” for the male participants in the Kalachakra-Tantra and, at the end of the ritual, are of no further importance. How can such rites be understood in the light of the equal rights for male and female which you have often publicly confessed to uphold? The secrecy surrounding these sexual practices in the upper levels of the Kalachakra-Tantra has led to wild speculations and suppositions.
Dalai Lama, you yourself state that it is forbidden under threat of the punishment of hell for the initiates to talk openly about the secret rituals in the Kalachakra-Tantra. In this context, you threaten a pupil in a commentary on the Kalachakra-Tantra “You must do what I tell to you. You should not deride me, and if you do, without forsaking fright, the time of death will come, and you will fall into a hell.” (Dalai Lama – The Kalachakra-Tantra – London 1985, p. 242). Buddha, on the other hand, insisted that one should believe nothing but rather test everything through experience and with commonsense (Anguttara Nikaya I, 174).
Why has to date no complete, correct and commentated translation of the Kalachakra-Tantra been made available in a Western language, although you have already initiated tenthousands of Westerners into this ritual?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I've heard about using a consort in sexual tantra. I guess I've never heard that they used children, that bothers me. I guess what I can't get my head around is that I've spent time listening to and recieving teachings from these lamas. They strike me as very kind and holy beings, not just nice but genuinly holy. I have a hard time accepting that in public they are kind, wise, helpful people while behind closed doors they are secretly child rapists and abusive, sexual deviants. The allegations have been made against the tantric commentary and practices in a feudalistic culture (it used to be common for people to get married at 12 or younger). I haven't seen any evidence here against any particular lamas or notion that this continues today and I think it takes repeated, specific allegations to be able to paint with such a wide brush.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
The Imagery of Sexual Union Does Not Refer to Ordinary Sex Tantra in Buddhism is an advanced method of practice that emphasizes the union of method and wisdom. The union is represented by a couple in union. The Tibetan word for the couple, yab-yum, means "father and mother." Just as a father and mother in union are required for producing a child, likewise method and wisdom in union are required for giving birth to enlightenment.
Method, the father, stands for bodhichitta, the determination to achieve enlightenment to benefit others as much as is possible. It also represents various other causes taught in tantra for gaining the enlightening physical bodies of a Buddha. Wisdom, the mother, stands for the realization of realitywith various levels of mind, as causes for a Buddha's enlightening mind. Gaining the union of a Buddha's physical bodies and mind requires practicing a union of method and wisdom. Because traditional Indian and Tibetan cultures do not share a Biblical sense of prudishness about sex, they do not have taboos about using sexual imagery to symbolize this union.
Another level of meaning of father as method is blissful awareness. The union of father and mother signifies blissful awareness conjoined with the realization of reality - in other words, the realization or understanding of reality with a blissful awareness. Here, blissful awareness does not refer to the bliss of orgasmic release as in ordinary sex, but to a blissful state of mind achieved through advanced yoga methods to control and centralize the subtle energies of the body. The embrace of father and mother, then, also symbolizes the blissful aspect of the union of method and wisdom, but in no way signifies the use of ordinary sex as a tantra method.
It is important not to become confused or misled by symbols used in foreign cultures. Someone unfamiliar with Christianity, for instance, might see the symbol of a man nailed to a cross and think that Christianity teaches methods of torture. One must always look deeper to learn what symbols represent. For example, tantric textual references to union with a series of nine women progressively one year older, starting with twelve, symbolizes gaining progressively more intense levels of blissful awareness of reality. It represents the nine stages of eliminating the subtlest level of confusion about reality and certainly does not refer to sexualabuse of teenagers.
But I guess you can always say that he is lying and the other source is the true one.
There are two types of initiation: that available to ordinary practitioners, and the esoteric initiation that Thao has described on this thread. The Berzin material covers initiation that involved visualization of, and actual sexual union with a woman, no mention of girls. It does mention the vase empowerment several times, however, though no description is provided, as far as I could tell. So the Berzin material could be covering the same ritual as Thao's book, but it's a little hard to tell for sure, since details are omitted.
One interesting point the DL mentions, is that, although vows against drinking alcohol and eating meat are required, initiates who have mastered the internal winds can consume alcohol and meat, because they've gained sufficient control over their bodily functions that these substances won't harm them. To the contrary, eating meat enhances the body's energy in the context of the ceremony, he says.
The Berzin Archives are such a great resource!
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Also,
The Symbolic Tasting of Alcohol Moreover, when tantric practitioners accept a small taste of specially consecrated alcohol and meat during certain rituals, this symbolizes the purification and usage of the subtle energies in their bodies for reaching enlightenment. As in the taking of specially consecrated bread and wine during a Christian communion, the symbolic act hardly sanctions alcohol or drug abuse.
The Berzin material does mention tummo, which the DL has said elsewhere is raised via sexual union with a woman. Though it can also be raised by visualization.
"...in no way signifies the use of ordinary sex as a tantra method." Indeed. Tantra uses extraordinary sex, spiritual sex, as method.
True, "blissful awareness does not refer to the bliss of orgasmic release as in ordinary sex". It refers to "a blissful state of mind achieved through advanced yoga methods", meaning withholding of orgasm to raise the Inner Fire, which generates bliss. And controlling the inner winds.
This is really turning into an interesting discussion! Thanks for introducing the Berzin material, person. Just because not all of us may see eye to eye doesn't mean we can't enjoy a good discussion and learn from it.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I'm trying to give these claims an honest appraisal but so far the only source I've found that has some credibility is this not so scathing article from the Guardian.
I've heard about using a consort in sexual tantra. I guess I've never heard that they used children, that bothers me. I guess what I can't get my head around is that I've spent time listening to and recieving teachings from these lamas. They strike me as very kind and holy beings, not just nice but genuinly holy. I have a hard time accepting that in public they are kind, wise, helpful people while behind closed doors they are secretly child rapists and abusive, sexual deviants. The allegations have been made against the tantric commentary and practices in a feudalistic culture (it used to be common for people to get married at 12 or younger). I haven't seen any evidence here against any particular lamas or notion that this continues today and I think it takes repeated, specific allegations to be able to paint with such a wide brush.
That is a hard one isn't it? Charismatic teachers are often the ones that abuse, and maybe I should not paint too wide a brush here either. But every guru I knew of was nice, kind, and holy, until they were not. It was a hard one for me to accept too. My husband always quoted this and he thinks it is Japanese): You have a public heart (that you show to the public), a private heart (that you show to family and friends), and a secret heart (that is yours. one that not even you can deny.
The thing to keep in mind, person, is that the rituals Thao has discussed from the "Commentary" book are or have been until recently, highly secret. So most practitioners wouldn't know about them. I'm sure the author of that essay doesn't even know they exist, so it wouldn't occur to her to investigate. It seems unusual that the material Thao quotes was ever published. It's something that's extremely difficult to get information on. Berzin says that references to union with teen and pre-teen women is only symbolic. Well, at least he acknowledges that such texts exist. So now we get to bicker about whether or not the references are symbolic or literal? :hrm:
I have talked with a teacher who is no longer with the Dalai Lama, and he said that they were indeed sexual. The early empowerments use visualization of a child, of fondling her breasts, but when you advance you need a real consort, a real woman. These teachings are hidden, which is why it is hard to find the straight truth. The Commentary was supposed to be hidden, and how it got out into the public I do not know. But yes, if you reveal or read these teachings when you are not initiated you can go to hell.
They try to tell you that it is all symbolic, and yes a lot of it is, such as "bodhichitta" meaning "compassion" and now it means "semen," or that om mani padme hum means jewel in the lotus, and in the book the sybolism is translated to jewel equals penis, lotus equals vagina. so this hidden book translates the hidden language
"4) secrecy of the Dharma doesn't follow the boddhisattva vow."
Could you please post the bodhisattva vow and show me where secrecy is outlawed? The bodhisattva vow actually prevents one from teaching emptiness in some situations.
"5) authority figures have no say on practitioners of other schools, and may and should be called upon if in fault (see other points)."
Aren't you establishing yourself as an authority figure? Over Tibetan Buddhism? You are free to criticize. Nobody is saying you are not allowed to dislike Tibetan buddhism or speak your mind. You in turn will be called upon for fault.
and if they are not real children, then how can chopel say this?
How does the yogi find a real, human mudra? Normally, she is delivered by his pupil. This is also true for the Kalachakra Tantra. “If one gives the enlightened teacher the prajna [mudra] as a gift,” proclaims Naropa, “the yoga is bliss” (Grünwedel, 1933, p. 117). If a 12- or 16-year-old girl cannot be found, a 20-year-old will suffice, advises another text, and continues, “One should offer his sister, daughter or wife to the ‘guru’”, then the more valuable the mudra is to the pupil, the more she serves as a gift for his master (Wayman, 1977, p. 320).
The “modern” tantric already mentioned, Lama Gedün Chöpel, explicitly warns that children can become injured during the sexual act: “Forcingly doing it with a young girl produces severe pains and wounds her genitalia. ... If it is not the time and if copulating would be dangerous for her, churn about between her thighs, and it [the female seed] will come out” (Chöpel, 1992, p. 135). In addition he recommends feeding a twelve-year-old honey and sweets before ritual sexual intercourse (Chöpel, 1992, p. 177).
Yes, somebody please find and post the Bodhisattva vow. Dazzle posted a version of it weeks ago that had a passage that said the bodhisattva will break the precepts if necessary to remove doubt on the part of a practitioner. (Not the exact wording.) So I'd like to see this vow in its entirety. I wonder if there are different versions.
"They strike me as very kind and holy beings, not just nice but genuinly holy. I have a hard time accepting that in public they are kind, wise, helpful people while behind closed doors they are secretly child rapists and abusive, sexual deviants. The allegations have been made against the tantric commentary and practices in a feudalistic culture (it used to be common for people to get married at 12 or younger). I haven't seen any evidence here against any particular lamas or notion that this continues today and I think it takes repeated, specific allegations to be able to paint with such a wide brush."
Basically, I have not idea about that, but I do know that Buddha said that there were no secret teachings: "Esoterism is the idea that some spiritual teachings should be kept secret from the majority and only be revealed to a select few. The Upanishads, which were composed around the time of the Buddha, were secret teachings only made available to high caste people who pledged total loyalty to the teacher. Even in Tibetan Buddhism or Vajrayana, some teachings are reserved only to those who have been initiated. The idea that the Dhamma should be restricted to or monopolized by an ‘in-group’ was repugnant to the Buddha. He perceived the truths he taught as being understandable to all, relevant to all and applicable to all. On one occasion he said, ‘Three things shine openly, not in secret. What three? The orb of the moon, the orb of the sun and the Dhamma and discipline taught by the Tathàgata’ (Anguttara Nikaya I. 283). He reiterated this same point just before his final passing when he said; ‘I have proclaimed the Dhamma without any idea of a hidden and open teaching. I do not have the closed fist of the teacher who holds anything back’ (Digha Nikaya II. 100).
DN 16: 32. Thus spoke the Venerable Ananda, but the Blessed One answered him, saying: "What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. Whosoever may think that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him, it is such a one that would have to give last instructions respecting them. But, Ananda, the Tathagata has no such idea as that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him. So what instructions should he have to give respecting the community of bhikkhus?"
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
A forum response to June Campbell and a response to that one.
Oh, what a confused woman! She is obviously unable to rid herself of her brainwashed Western/Christian concept of sex - that it is for procreation and for bonding the relationship. Does she still not understand YET that the higher levels of practise in Tantric yoga require the yogi to have a yogini to provide the Yin element to his Yang sexual energies and vice versa? The vow of celibacy in such a tradition means that the monk/nun will not fornicate with a woman/man for pleasure or become married for the purpose of procreation. Unlike in the Christian tradition for monks and nuns, it does NOT mean that one cannot have sex at all. Indeed, the higher practices of Tantric yoga require the man or woman to have a sexual partner. He or she does not have to be married to them because - and this is the hard part for Westerners to understand - the highest form of sex transcends romance, love or purely sensual excitement because it is about releasing Kundalini energy in the union of Shiva and Shakti energies in order to transform consciousness. Yes, there IS a problem of women having a lower status in Tibetan society, and no doubt she now feels she was used. But, evidently achieving spiritual perfection was never on HER mind. She liked the power and social status that being the consort of a high lama gave her. Then she got a shock when she was told her services were no longer needed. She reacted with the anger of a scorned wife instead of with the spiritual understanding that sexual consorts are not required to be permanent in the Tantric tradition because the relationship is not that of a husband and wife but of two aspirants to spiritual perfection. That, evidently was not her motive, so now she is left feeling exploited and accusing lamas of being hypocrites, etc. This is ridiculous and shows her spiritual immaturity. "Slave"? Hardly! She agreed to being a dakini for a Tantric Buddhist. I bet she would not now be writing a book if the lama had given her a few thousand dollars as a leaving present.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 373247
ouch.....
Perhaps he promised her enlightenment?
Desire always brings its downfall.
Making love is not meant to be an after dinner mint it is meant to be a feast of the sacred union of the divine. Without the state of being divine love one can pollute the temple of the other. Doesn't sound like love was part of the relationship nor was giving but taking. Perhaps you might like to consider whether it was a fair exchange or whether she was misled in some way.
The experience she describes is well known by Tao Masters and there are female Tao Masters that have at least two sexual partners. 3,500+ years ago it was considered that sexuality was the way to immortality. Sad, they did not realise that we are already immortal. However, the female Tao Masters had other uses for the semen and believe that it keeps their skin, hair and bodies young, healthy and beautiful. There certainly are good proteins in semen that are for assisting the female body to stay healthy. Doesn't sound like the author got much of anything.
Life is give and take, share, serve and be served.
Life is about relationship with self, others and all sentient beings.
People never were meant to be celibate for many years at a time.
It sounds like the author has broken free for her own good and that is probably exactly what she was meant to do. Break the karmic cycle of male domination.
Hope to see a lot more people breaking the cycle.
People are not a commodity without love they become so.
Those that betray their own souls are called cortesans by the divine.
His blackmail of her does not bode well for the sanctity of himself or his own karma.
This story reminds me of why Jesus rebuked the Apostles for getting drunk on love and his energy. When people get drunk on spiritual energy they can lose rationality, reason and the moral compass.
OK, good (and somewhat sickening) point, Thao. The rituals were practiced with live girls up to Choepel's time (first 1/2 of 20th Century, roughly). Maybe now they're practiced symbolically? (Still holding out hope, here.) BTW, Naropa lived hundreds of years ago. I still can't buy that HHDL has practiced this way.
person, where did you get your info on Taoist practice? I've been wondering about that. Do you have a reference?
I thought the point of Campbell's book was a) that the sexual "practice" wasn't tantric at all and b) she was coerced into it (she describes being threatened), though she does admit that an element of pride (ego) at being chosen by the lama contributed to her downfall.
Anyway, as someone pointed out earlier, in order for "real" tantric sex to happen the consort is supposed to have reached an advanced stage of practice. Campbell was only an interpreter/translator for her guru.
"Basically, I have not idea about that, but I do know that Buddha said that there were no secret teachings"
The context of that statement was that people should rest easy that they have the teachings. He said it at his death.
Buddha also said that what he had taught was like a handful of leaves in a forest.
Now logically if the practice of buddhism does not produce enlightenment then it is no different from 'self help'. Might as well go golfing? Probably more fun. So assuming it does produce enlightened beings or even somewhat enlightened beings these may give enlightened practices. Second you are using the Pali Canon to validate itself. Third, there was a schism and the material presented by the southern school may have been politically motivated. Fourth, tantra existed in Therevada buddhism from 800 BCE to 1000 BCE. Fifth, some teachings in the dharma are definitive and some are in need of interpretation. That is what the Gelug school says at least. Personally I find the whole teaching of buddhism in need of interpretation. Thao, you are taking a rigid view that all of the teachings in the Pali Canon constitute the only dharma. That actually sounds ridiculous to me. Honest. YOU fundy
Sixth, Jesus (I mean Buddha ) doesn't refer to the Pali Canon by name as all of his teachings. Buddha may have been referring to the vajrayana as one of his teachings.
Making love is not meant to be an after dinner mint it is meant to be a feast of the sacred union of the divine. Without the state of being divine love one can pollute the temple of the other. Doesn't sound like love was part of the relationship nor was giving but taking. Perhaps you might like to consider whether it was a fair exchange or whether she was misled in some way.
The experience she describes is well known by Tao Masters and there are female Tao Masters that have at least two sexual partners. 3,500+ years ago it was considered that sexuality was the way to immortality. Sad, they did not realise that we are already immortal. However, the female Tao Masters had other uses for the semen and believe that it keeps their skin, hair and bodies young, healthy and beautiful. There certainly are good proteins in semen that are for assisting the female body to stay healthy. Doesn't sound like the author got much of anything.
Life is give and take, share, serve and be served.
etc etc etc"
Person I was unclear who or what text made these statements?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
and if they are not real children, then how can chopel say this?
How does the yogi find a real, human mudra? Normally, she is delivered by his pupil. This is also true for the Kalachakra Tantra. “If one gives the enlightened teacher the prajna [mudra] as a gift,” proclaims Naropa, “the yoga is bliss” (Grünwedel, 1933, p. 117). If a 12- or 16-year-old girl cannot be found, a 20-year-old will suffice, advises another text, and continues, “One should offer his sister, daughter or wife to the ‘guru’”, then the more valuable the mudra is to the pupil, the more she serves as a gift for his master (Wayman, 1977, p. 320).
The “modern” tantric already mentioned, Lama Gedün Chöpel, explicitly warns that children can become injured during the sexual act: “Forcingly doing it with a young girl produces severe pains and wounds her genitalia. ... If it is not the time and if copulating would be dangerous for her, churn about between her thighs, and it [the female seed] will come out” (Chöpel, 1992, p. 135). In addition he recommends feeding a twelve-year-old honey and sweets before ritual sexual intercourse (Chöpel, 1992, p. 177).
Grünwedel died in 1935 so I'm not how relevent his information about giving the mudra as a gift remains today. Wayman maybe is a more reliable source and offering a female relative to someone else seems hopelessly outdated, I hope thats not still done today. As for the Chopel quote, that is from his sexual manual and doesn't say anything about tantra. When different sources one about tantra and then one about sex are presented one after the other it really confuses the issue.
Also there's two seperate arguements being made. Whether tantra was taught by the Buddha and sexual abuse in the name of tantra and guru devotion. To me it seems pretty hard to validate the source of the teachings and don't really want to address that. As to the sexual abuse issue and the debasing of women, it seems like it has happened but I think its probably more a result of a feudalistic culture than anything else. Was feudal Europe much different?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Person I was unclear who or what text made these statements?
They were made on a forum addressing June Campbell, sorry I didn't include the link in the original post. Here it is again after Thao's request.
OK, I"ve heard of that in some countries. But I've come across articles on the internet that say that poor families give a kid to the monastery. It would be a good subject for study: why families still give little boys away to the monasteries.
"tibetan folk religion" or "contemporary bön" would be more accurate names.
Then how would you differentiate between the true contemp. bon religion, and Tibetan Buddhism? Besides, Vajrayana is Hinduism with a veneer of Buddhist theory ("Tantric Buddhism"). So it's not quite so simple as Bon + Buddhism. Yes, but by whom? If the system is corrupt from the top, who's going to enforce the rules?
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
From another forum about Victor and Victoria Trimondi.
Anyhow, it's worth noting that the authors, Victor and Victoria Trimondi, are Ma.rxist activists from Germany who see the wholesale destruction of traditional societies as part of organizing radical consciousness. They've been parroting Ma.o's line since Deng took over and stopped doing so.
Reading the fabrication of the previous poster I deem it necessary to post facts about V. Trimondi:
Herbert Roettgen, that's his real name, was born in 1940 and studied religious science. He has written three books:
1. The Shadow of the Dalai Lama published 1999 2. Hitler-Buddha-Krishna (an unholy alliance) published 2002 3. War of Religions published 2006
The original language of all 3 books is German. I’m not sure whether the last two books were published in English as well.
Trimondi was active in the 68 movement but this is no criteria for labelling him a Marxist. If everybody who participated in this movement is a Marxist then former German PM (Bundeskanzler) Schroeder and FM Fischer are Marxists as well. It only shows that in the eyes of the previous poster everybody who does not agree with his world view is a Marxist. This is pathetic.
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Trying to find out more about them, but they possibly have a political agenda.
One must always look deeper to learn what symbols represent. For example, tantric textual references to union with a series of nine women progressively one year older, starting with twelve, symbolizes gaining progressively more intense levels of blissful awareness of reality. It represents the nine stages of eliminating the subtlest level of confusion about reality and certainly does not refer to sexualabuse of teenagers.
But I guess you can always say that he is lying and the other source is the true one.
I think Berzin recorded what he was told. Would you really expect his informants to admit to the fact that there are or were rituals involving underage girls? I think the info presented here is interesting and enriches the debate. But I think there's no clear-cut evidence pro or con the reality (whether past or present) of rituals involving live children. Except maybe Chopel's statements, and Naropa's, from the distant past.
HOWEVER, I think that if someone wanted to find a symbol for 7 or 9 stages, there are plenty of prospects other than underage girls. I think the very fact that such an image exists in the tradition--having sex with girls--at the very least encourages (and would be evidence of, on the part of the text authors) pedophilia. Even if it's only done in meditation, that's sick. Normal men don't get turned on by the thought of sex with (or fondling the breasts of)a 12-year old, or a 10-year old (what 10-year old has breasts?!), as in the Hevajra Tantra. Nor do such images inspire them to attain "higher level of blissful awareness" as we know it. What's being discussed is the blissful awareness of Kundalini, or the Inner Fire, which in Tibetan tradition is raised by either meditation on, or practice of, sexual techniques. And meditation on, or live practice with, children and young women is intended to stimulate the lust that kindles the Inner Fire, which (lust) is then transformed into spiritual bliss/awareness.
As to the sexual abuse issue and the debasing of women, it seems like it has happened but I think its probably more a result of a feudalistic culture than anything else. Was feudal Europe much different?
I totally agree, person. I think this is a holdover from feudal culture, and the time has come to modernize. Maybe their way of modernizing is changing the practice to visualization only. I don't think adding sophisticated symbology to camouflage the true nature of the practice is going to fool everyone. Maybe there's not much more to discuss, until/unless we get a confession from someone who has participated in the rituals, or other evidence.
June Campbell was manipulated and coerced into the "practice" with Kalu Rinpoche. He also forced her to have sex with his nephew, who was the person who let June in and out of his quarters. Kalu had to buy his silence using June's body as currency. Kalu also took a Tibetan teen as "consort" after beginning with June, and after a year, the teen disappeared. Kalu's excuse was that she "died of a heart attack". Right. A teen dying of a heart attack. In any case, June was absolutely terrified after that, that if she tried to leave, she might be killed. Not a pretty picture.
person, I respect the spirit with which you've joined the discussion, and have inquired into the matter yourself. Thank you for your contributions.
And there's no evidence the Buddha taught this. The mythology is that he transformed into the Buddha Vajradhara, and taught it in that form. The lineages trace back to Vajradhara, not to Siddhartha Gautama.
I've started three new threads about 1 whether buddha taught tantra 2 whether abuse is occuring in Tibetan Buddhism due to tantra 3 Whether the guru relationship is abusive.
I invite you all to my three threads so that we can discuss this more clearly.
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
After reading an interview with Trimondi its apparent to me that he sees the Kalachakra tantra through the lense of avoiding nazi Germany (he's a German).
Trimondi: Yes, it is astonishing why the Jewish Community is so uncritical vis-à-vis the Dalai Lama. On 09.04.03 the Swiss Newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung reported, that the Tibetan religious leader said on a journey in Jerusalem,
"Hitler would also have the potential of a good man in himself. Hitler was not born as a wicked man, his hatred of the Jewish people made him malicious and this hatred must be battled. But this doesn’t mean that there was not also lying dormant some Goodness in Hitler. A wicked man can be tomorrow a good man, said the Dalai Lama. For this we have to fight."
Also if such a statement can be interpreted as an expression of Buddhist compassion, it seems tasteless remembering the murdering of six million Jews by the Nazis and the death of millions and millions of war victims on the account of Hitler’s madness. There would be a worldwide protest, if for example the Pope or a Western statesman made such a sympathetic remark on the most prominent mass murderer in human history, especially if such a remark is done in Israel, where many survivors of the Holocaust and their children are living.
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This seems like an obvious misunderstanding of what Buddhism stands for and he's looking at it from a political point of view rather than a spiritual one.
Also
"The intricate Mandala, constructed during the Kalachakra Ceremony, is made with coloured sand and symbolizes the whole universe. At the end of the ritualistic performance the sand construction will be destroyed by the Tibetan monks. The so called “dismantling” of the sand Mandala symbolizes the destruction of the world and of the universe. This is part of the apocalyptic Doomsday Scenarios in the Kalachakra prophecies which culminate in a final battle and the End of our planet. Nevertheless the construction and destruction of the Mandala is presented by the Dalai Lama as a contribution to world peace.
...
In our studies it was alarming to find that following the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993 a Wheel of Time (Kalachakra) Sand Mandala was built in the lobby of Tower One. For over thirty days, many of the World Trade Center workers and visitors were invited by the Tibetan Monks to participate in the construction of this Mandala. When the Dalai Lama visits New York in the next days, we would ask: Why the terrible event of 9/11 could happen at the World Trade Center that was consecrated by the so called “Circle of Peace,” the Kalachakra Sand Mandala, the same mandalas that were unable to prevent the destruction of 7500 monasteries of Tibet? In this context a sentence of the Tantra expert and Indian scholar Shashi Bhusan Dasgupta may be remarkable: "The word Kala means time, death and destruction. Kala-Chakra is the Wheel of Destruction."
Yeah, and their book isn't the only one published in Germany on the subject of HHDL's interactions with Nazis or ex-Nazis. But that doesn't invalidate the research on tantric practices.
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Looking into this what I'm seeing is that Old Tibet was a backward, feudalistic place that still carries over some to the institutions today. However, everything I've been taught and learned from Tibetan Buddhists has been seemingly straightforward Buddhism and has proven immensly helpful not only to myself but I assume many others. I don't have any problem seperating the religious aspect of Tibetan Buddhism from the cultural but I suppose its easy to confuse the two and pointing out these failings seems helpful. I think though that motivation is important, is one trying to correct backwards ethical standards and prevent people from mistaking cultural phenomena with religious ones or is one simply trying to discredit another tradition for some personal reason concious or unconcious.
I agree that the "straightforward Buddhism" part of TB can be helpful and inspiring. But its link, via higher practices, to Vajrayana opens the door to abuse. (OK, and teachers on a power trip, whether Vajrayana or not, are a problem.) This is why Shamar Rinpoche decided to separate the Vajrayana aspect from the basic Buddhism aspect in his Bodhi Path Centers.
Also, person, even students (mostly female) arriving at sangha for basic teachings can run into lamas with dishonorable intent and behavior. It discriminates against women, who can run into obstacles to receiving even basic teachings.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited June 2011
Yeah, and their book isn't the only one published in Germany on the subject of HHDL's interactions with Nazis or ex-Nazis. But that doesn't invalidate the research on tantric practices.
Your right, but I think it does mean we have to take his interpretation with a grain of salt. He said him and his wife first started investigating the way samurai culture polluted Zen Buddhism and the way political fighting in Sri Lanka, Burma, etc. polluted Therevada but they decided to focus on TB. So I imagine that a scathing critique could be made for other sects of Buddhism as well as any other religious, political or cultural institution. I don't think that means you have to throw out the good with the bad.
I agree that the "straightforward Buddhism" part of TB can be helpful and inspiring. But its link, via higher practices, to Vajrayana opens the door to abuse. (OK, and teachers on a power trip, whether Vajrayana or not, are a problem.) This is why Shamar Rinpoche decided to separate the Vajrayana aspect from the basic Buddhism aspect in his Bodhi Path Centers.
Also, person, even students (mostly female) arriving at sangha for basic teachings can run into lamas with dishonorable intent and behavior. It discriminates against women, who can run into obstacles to receiving even basic teachings.
Yeah, I'm a male so I can't say what kind of vibe women may get and I think I agree that Vajrayana probably isn't very appropriate for modern culture since its symbolism is easily abused.
"5) authority figures have no say on practitioners of other schools, and may and should be called upon if in fault (see other points)."
Aren't you establishing yourself as an authority figure? Over Tibetan Buddhism? You are free to criticize. Nobody is saying you are not allowed to dislike Tibetan buddhism or speak your mind. You in turn will be called upon for fault.
of course not, any conversation of the Dharma has to be provable, at least in a personal way. there's no place for authority.
"tibetan folk religion" or "contemporary bön" would be more accurate names.
Then how would you differentiate between the true contemp. bon religion, and Tibetan Buddhism? Besides, Vajrayana is Hinduism with a veneer of Buddhist theory ("Tantric Buddhism"). So it's not quite so simple as Bon + Buddhism. Yes, but by whom? If the system is corrupt from the top, who's going to enforce the rules?
in the spirit of the philosophical debates in ancient India, anyone can call upon another and present arguments and proof to expose the fault. this doesn't need a "system", rules or any authority.
"of course not, any conversation of the Dharma has to be provable, at least in a personal way. there's no place for authority."
No one has said otherwise. And thus you have to prove that guru yoga is not desirable. To people who are practicing guru yoga. And are happy.
Just as if I criticized the four noble truths. I would have to prove to you that they were not desirable. To you who believes in the four noble truths. And is happy with them.
Do you think such 'proof' is possible? In the light that it isn't I think I find your comments meaningless. Tibetan buddhists do not have any say in other schools and they never claimed that they did! Yet you are claiming authority in Tibetan buddhism? Many Christians believe that Buddhism is devil worship. And they have 'proof' of it in the holy bible.
Comments
The Imagery of Sexual Union Does Not Refer to Ordinary Sex
Tantra in Buddhism is an advanced method of practice that emphasizes the union of method and wisdom. The union is represented by a couple in union. The Tibetan word for the couple, yab-yum, means "father and mother." Just as a father and mother in union are required for producing a child, likewise method and wisdom in union are required for giving birth to enlightenment.
Method, the father, stands for bodhichitta, the determination to achieve enlightenment to benefit others as much as is possible. It also represents various other causes taught in tantra for gaining the enlightening physical bodies of a Buddha. Wisdom, the mother, stands for the realization of realitywith various levels of mind, as causes for a Buddha's enlightening mind. Gaining the union of a Buddha's physical bodies and mind requires practicing a union of method and wisdom. Because traditional Indian and Tibetan cultures do not share a Biblical sense of prudishness about sex, they do not have taboos about using sexual imagery to symbolize this union.
Another level of meaning of father as method is blissful awareness. The union of father and mother signifies blissful awareness conjoined with the realization of reality - in other words, the realization or understanding of reality with a blissful awareness. Here, blissful awareness does not refer to the bliss of orgasmic release as in ordinary sex, but to a blissful state of mind achieved through advanced yoga methods to control and centralize the subtle energies of the body. The embrace of father and mother, then, also symbolizes the blissful aspect of the union of method and wisdom, but in no way signifies the use of ordinary sex as a tantra method.
It is important not to become confused or misled by symbols used in foreign cultures. Someone unfamiliar with Christianity, for instance, might see the symbol of a man nailed to a cross and think that Christianity teaches methods of torture. One must always look deeper to learn what symbols represent. For example, tantric textual references to union with a series of nine women progressively one year older, starting with twelve, symbolizes gaining progressively more intense levels of blissful awareness of reality. It represents the nine stages of eliminating the subtlest level of confusion about reality and certainly does not refer to sexualabuse of teenagers.
But I guess you can always say that he is lying and the other source is the true one.
One interesting point the DL mentions, is that, although vows against drinking alcohol and eating meat are required, initiates who have mastered the internal winds can consume alcohol and meat, because they've gained sufficient control over their bodily functions that these substances won't harm them. To the contrary, eating meat enhances the body's energy in the context of the ceremony, he says.
The Berzin Archives are such a great resource!
The Symbolic Tasting of Alcohol
Moreover, when tantric practitioners accept a small taste of specially consecrated alcohol and meat during certain rituals, this symbolizes the purification and usage of the subtle energies in their bodies for reaching enlightenment. As in the taking of specially consecrated bread and wine during a Christian communion, the symbolic act hardly sanctions alcohol or drug abuse.
"...in no way signifies the use of ordinary sex as a tantra method." Indeed. Tantra uses extraordinary sex, spiritual sex, as method.
True, "blissful awareness does not refer to the bliss of orgasmic release as in ordinary sex". It refers to "a blissful state of mind achieved through advanced yoga methods", meaning withholding of orgasm to raise the Inner Fire, which generates bliss. And controlling the inner winds.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jul/06/religion-buddhism-dalai-lama-tibet
So are you going to get upset if I worship krishna and say I am a buddhist. LOL
speculation
speculation
They try to tell you that it is all symbolic, and yes a lot of it is, such as "bodhichitta" meaning "compassion" and now it means "semen," or that om mani padme hum means jewel in the lotus, and in the book the sybolism is translated to jewel equals penis, lotus equals vagina. so this hidden book translates the hidden language
agree
Could you please post the bodhisattva vow and show me where secrecy is outlawed? The bodhisattva vow actually prevents one from teaching emptiness in some situations.
Aren't you establishing yourself as an authority figure? Over Tibetan Buddhism? You are free to criticize. Nobody is saying you are not allowed to dislike Tibetan buddhism or speak your mind. You in turn will be called upon for fault.
How does the yogi find a real, human mudra? Normally, she is delivered by his pupil. This is also true for the Kalachakra Tantra. “If one gives the enlightened teacher the prajna [mudra] as a gift,” proclaims Naropa, “the yoga is bliss” (Grünwedel, 1933, p. 117). If a 12- or 16-year-old girl cannot be found, a 20-year-old will suffice, advises another text, and continues, “One should offer his sister, daughter or wife to the ‘guru’”, then the more valuable the mudra is to the pupil, the more she serves as a gift for his master (Wayman, 1977, p. 320).
The “modern” tantric already mentioned, Lama Gedün Chöpel, explicitly warns that children can become injured during the sexual act: “Forcingly doing it with a young girl produces severe pains and wounds her genitalia. ... If it is not the time and if copulating would be dangerous for her, churn about between her thighs, and it [the female seed] will come out” (Chöpel, 1992, p. 135). In addition he recommends feeding a twelve-year-old honey and sweets before ritual sexual intercourse (Chöpel, 1992, p. 177).
Well spoken
Ven. S. Dhammika"
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Esoterism
And here is what the Pali Canon says:
DN 16:
32. Thus spoke the Venerable Ananda, but the Blessed One answered him, saying: "What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. Whosoever may think that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him, it is such a one that would have to give last instructions respecting them. But, Ananda, the Tathagata has no such idea as that it is he who should lead the community of bhikkhus, or that the community depends upon him. So what instructions should he have to give respecting the community of bhikkhus?"
Oh, what a confused woman! She is obviously unable to rid herself of her brainwashed Western/Christian concept of sex - that it is for procreation and for bonding the relationship. Does she still not understand YET that the higher levels of practise in Tantric yoga require the yogi to have a yogini to provide the Yin element to his Yang sexual energies and vice versa? The vow of celibacy in such a tradition means that the monk/nun will not fornicate with a woman/man for pleasure or become married for the purpose of procreation. Unlike in the Christian tradition for monks and nuns, it does NOT mean that one cannot have sex at all. Indeed, the higher practices of Tantric yoga require the man or woman to have a sexual partner. He or she does not have to be married to them because - and this is the hard part for Westerners to understand - the highest form of sex transcends romance, love or purely sensual excitement because it is about releasing Kundalini energy in the union of Shiva and Shakti energies in order to transform consciousness. Yes, there IS a problem of women having a lower status in Tibetan society, and no doubt she now feels she was used. But, evidently achieving spiritual perfection was never on HER mind. She liked the power and social status that being the consort of a high lama gave her. Then she got a shock when she was told her services were no longer needed. She reacted with the anger of a scorned wife instead of with the spiritual understanding that sexual consorts are not required to be permanent in the Tantric tradition because the relationship is not that of a husband and wife but of two aspirants to spiritual perfection. That, evidently was not her motive, so now she is left feeling exploited and accusing lamas of being hypocrites, etc. This is ridiculous and shows her spiritual immaturity. "Slave"? Hardly! She agreed to being a dakini for a Tantric Buddhist. I bet she would not now be writing a book if the lama had given her a few thousand dollars as a leaving present.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 373247
ouch.....
Perhaps he promised her enlightenment?
Desire always brings its downfall.
Making love is not meant to be an after dinner mint it is meant to be a feast of the sacred union of the divine. Without the state of being divine love one can pollute the temple of the other. Doesn't sound like love was part of the relationship nor was giving but taking. Perhaps you might like to consider whether it was a fair exchange or whether she was misled in some way.
The experience she describes is well known by Tao Masters and there are female Tao Masters that have at least two sexual partners. 3,500+ years ago it was considered that sexuality was the way to immortality. Sad, they did not realise that we are already immortal. However, the female Tao Masters had other uses for the semen and believe that it keeps their skin, hair and bodies young, healthy and beautiful. There certainly are good proteins in semen that are for assisting the female body to stay healthy. Doesn't sound like the author got much of anything.
Life is give and take, share, serve and be served.
Life is about relationship with self, others and all sentient beings.
People never were meant to be celibate for many years at a time.
It sounds like the author has broken free for her own good and that is probably exactly what she was meant to do. Break the karmic cycle of male domination.
Hope to see a lot more people breaking the cycle.
People are not a commodity without love they become so.
Those that betray their own souls are called cortesans by the divine.
His blackmail of her does not bode well for the sanctity of himself or his own karma.
This story reminds me of why Jesus rebuked the Apostles for getting drunk on love and his energy. When people get drunk on spiritual energy they can lose rationality, reason and the moral compass.
I thought the point of Campbell's book was a) that the sexual "practice" wasn't tantric at all and b) she was coerced into it (she describes being threatened), though she does admit that an element of pride (ego) at being chosen by the lama contributed to her downfall.
Anyway, as someone pointed out earlier, in order for "real" tantric sex to happen the consort is supposed to have reached an advanced stage of practice. Campbell was only an interpreter/translator for her guru.
The context of that statement was that people should rest easy that they have the teachings. He said it at his death.
Buddha also said that what he had taught was like a handful of leaves in a forest.
Now logically if the practice of buddhism does not produce enlightenment then it is no different from 'self help'. Might as well go golfing? Probably more fun. So assuming it does produce enlightened beings or even somewhat enlightened beings these may give enlightened practices. Second you are using the Pali Canon to validate itself. Third, there was a schism and the material presented by the southern school may have been politically motivated. Fourth, tantra existed in Therevada buddhism from 800 BCE to 1000 BCE. Fifth, some teachings in the dharma are definitive and some are in need of interpretation. That is what the Gelug school says at least. Personally I find the whole teaching of buddhism in need of interpretation. Thao, you are taking a rigid view that all of the teachings in the Pali Canon constitute the only dharma. That actually sounds ridiculous to me. Honest. YOU fundy
"Perhaps he promised her enlightenment?
Desire always brings its downfall.
Making love is not meant to be an after dinner mint it is meant to be a feast of the sacred union of the divine. Without the state of being divine love one can pollute the temple of the other. Doesn't sound like love was part of the relationship nor was giving but taking. Perhaps you might like to consider whether it was a fair exchange or whether she was misled in some way.
The experience she describes is well known by Tao Masters and there are female Tao Masters that have at least two sexual partners. 3,500+ years ago it was considered that sexuality was the way to immortality. Sad, they did not realise that we are already immortal. However, the female Tao Masters had other uses for the semen and believe that it keeps their skin, hair and bodies young, healthy and beautiful. There certainly are good proteins in semen that are for assisting the female body to stay healthy. Doesn't sound like the author got much of anything.
Life is give and take, share, serve and be served.
etc etc etc"
Person I was unclear who or what text made these statements?
Also there's two seperate arguements being made. Whether tantra was taught by the Buddha and sexual abuse in the name of tantra and guru devotion. To me it seems pretty hard to validate the source of the teachings and don't really want to address that. As to the sexual abuse issue and the debasing of women, it seems like it has happened but I think its probably more a result of a feudalistic culture than anything else. Was feudal Europe much different?
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message523474/pg1
Yes confusing.
Yes, but by whom? If the system is corrupt from the top, who's going to enforce the rules?
http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/viewthread.php?gid=2&tid=636531&page=2
Anyhow, it's worth noting that the authors, Victor and Victoria Trimondi, are Ma.rxist activists from Germany who see the wholesale destruction of traditional societies as part of organizing radical consciousness. They've been parroting Ma.o's line since Deng took over and stopped doing so.
Reading the fabrication of the previous poster I deem it necessary to post facts about V. Trimondi:
Herbert Roettgen, that's his real name, was born in 1940 and studied religious science. He has written three books:
1. The Shadow of the Dalai Lama published 1999
2. Hitler-Buddha-Krishna (an unholy alliance) published 2002
3. War of Religions published 2006
The original language of all 3 books is German.
I’m not sure whether the last two books were published in English as well.
Trimondi was active in the 68 movement but this is no criteria for labelling him a Marxist. If everybody who participated in this movement is a Marxist then former German PM (Bundeskanzler) Schroeder and FM Fischer are Marxists as well. It only shows that in the eyes of the previous poster everybody who does not agree with his world view is a Marxist. This is pathetic.
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Trying to find out more about them, but they possibly have a political agenda.
HOWEVER, I think that if someone wanted to find a symbol for 7 or 9 stages, there are plenty of prospects other than underage girls. I think the very fact that such an image exists in the tradition--having sex with girls--at the very least encourages (and would be evidence of, on the part of the text authors) pedophilia. Even if it's only done in meditation, that's sick.
June Campbell was manipulated and coerced into the "practice" with Kalu Rinpoche. He also forced her to have sex with his nephew, who was the person who let June in and out of his quarters. Kalu had to buy his silence using June's body as currency. Kalu also took a Tibetan teen as "consort" after beginning with June, and after a year, the teen disappeared. Kalu's excuse was that she "died of a heart attack". Right. A teen dying of a heart attack. In any case, June was absolutely terrified after that, that if she tried to leave, she might be killed. Not a pretty picture.
person, I respect the spirit with which you've joined the discussion, and have inquired into the matter yourself. Thank you for your contributions.
And there's no evidence the Buddha taught this. The mythology is that he transformed into the Buddha Vajradhara, and taught it in that form. The lineages trace back to Vajradhara, not to Siddhartha Gautama.
6 pages and counting....;)
I invite you all to my three threads so that we can discuss this more clearly.
abuse in guru? http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/11144/is-the-guru-relationship-abusive-in-tibetan-buddhism-inherently-or-some-not-discussion-of-tantra#Item_1
abuse in tantra http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/11143/what-kinds-of-abuse-occurs-in-tantra-not-whether-buddha-taught-not-abuse-in-guru#Item_1
did buddha teach tantra http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/11142/did-buddha-teach-tantrs-not-a-discussion-on-abuse-in-tantra#Item_1
Vent thread http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/11145/venting-thread-for-those-who-dilike-tibetan-buddhism
From http://www.american-buddha.com/trimondi.interviewjamesstephens.htm
Trimondi: Yes, it is astonishing why the Jewish Community is so uncritical vis-à-vis the Dalai Lama. On 09.04.03 the Swiss Newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung reported, that the Tibetan religious leader said on a journey in Jerusalem,
"Hitler would also have the potential of a good man in himself. Hitler was not born as a wicked man, his hatred of the Jewish people made him malicious and this hatred must be battled. But this doesn’t mean that there was not also lying dormant some Goodness in Hitler. A wicked man can be tomorrow a good man, said the Dalai Lama. For this we have to fight."
Also if such a statement can be interpreted as an expression of Buddhist compassion, it seems tasteless remembering the murdering of six million Jews by the Nazis and the death of millions and millions of war victims on the account of Hitler’s madness. There would be a worldwide protest, if for example the Pope or a Western statesman made such a sympathetic remark on the most prominent mass murderer in human history, especially if such a remark is done in Israel, where many survivors of the Holocaust and their children are living.
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This seems like an obvious misunderstanding of what Buddhism stands for and he's looking at it from a political point of view rather than a spiritual one.
Also
"The intricate Mandala, constructed during the Kalachakra Ceremony, is made with coloured sand and symbolizes the whole universe. At the end of the ritualistic performance the sand construction will be destroyed by the Tibetan monks. The so called “dismantling” of the sand Mandala symbolizes the destruction of the world and of the universe. This is part of the apocalyptic Doomsday Scenarios in the Kalachakra prophecies which culminate in a final battle and the End of our planet. Nevertheless the construction and destruction of the Mandala is presented by the Dalai Lama as a contribution to world peace.
...
In our studies it was alarming to find that following the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993 a Wheel of Time (Kalachakra) Sand Mandala was built in the lobby of Tower One. For over thirty days, many of the World Trade Center workers and visitors were invited by the Tibetan Monks to participate in the construction of this Mandala. When the Dalai Lama visits New York in the next days, we would ask: Why the terrible event of 9/11 could happen at the World Trade Center that was consecrated by the so called “Circle of Peace,” the Kalachakra Sand Mandala, the same mandalas that were unable to prevent the destruction of 7500 monasteries of Tibet? In this context a sentence of the Tantra expert and Indian scholar Shashi Bhusan Dasgupta may be remarkable: "The word Kala means time, death and destruction. Kala-Chakra is the Wheel of Destruction."
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Really?
@Jeffrey--you're a good sport.
Also, person, even students (mostly female) arriving at sangha for basic teachings can run into lamas with dishonorable intent and behavior. It discriminates against women, who can run into obstacles to receiving even basic teachings.
are you serious?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanha (or Trishna in sanskrit)
this doesn't need a "system", rules or any authority.
No one has said otherwise. And thus you have to prove that guru yoga is not desirable. To people who are practicing guru yoga. And are happy.
Just as if I criticized the four noble truths. I would have to prove to you that they were not desirable. To you who believes in the four noble truths. And is happy with them.
Do you think such 'proof' is possible? In the light that it isn't I think I find your comments meaningless. Tibetan buddhists do not have any say in other schools and they never claimed that they did! Yet you are claiming authority in Tibetan buddhism? Many Christians believe that Buddhism is devil worship. And they have 'proof' of it in the holy bible.
stop the non-sense, I'm not claiming authority over anything.