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Never to fight back? Never to fight for your life or the life of others??

edited October 2011 in Buddhism Basics
Did anybody here knows about the famouse video:

3 guys 1 hammer?

If you dont, and if you want search their history in google and or watch the video of how they kill and torture people.

Would you dont fight back this people in the sake of karma?

Most of the time the best answer is non violence but... Hey comon is real life someday can come that violence is the fokin answer!!

And i give a f... when that day comes about karma.
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Comments

  • This is an extreme situation.. I would probably fight back if attacked. I would however let a thief steal my possession rather than kill them.
  • ToshTosh Veteran
    Buddhism isn't about being stupid; if someone attacks you, of course you should defend yourself. However, if you use more than the minimum force necessary, for example you disarm your attacker and then spend the next three hours torturing him, the 'torturing bit' wouldn't be in accordance with Buddhist philosophy.

  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    i haven't seen the video, but i did some research on it... which further reinforced the feeling that i didn't want to watch it. i don't think you need to watch it to know how messed up it is. a link to the wikipedia article for others who may not want to ruin their day.

    i don't think the buddhist thing to do would to be to roll over and die. people on the level of psychosis such as dnepropetrovsk maniacs will not stop at one person. they were suspected in many murders other than just the one shown. if i put myself in that situation, i don't think i could give in out of the sake of karma, i would fight so that i could hopefully keep them from continuing this behavior.
  • There is a story where the buddha says that it was neccessary to cultivate no ill will towards a king who cut him up into several pieces while alive. That karma he created helped him in his spiritual path. But note that ill will and fighting back are not the same thing.
  • Fighting back with self defense is never wrong in any situation. However, in certain cases where you should not fight back, that intuition or idea should come to you naturally and then it is up to you to decide.
  • In this article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu he says:

    "If a monk was physically attacked, the Buddha allowed him to strike back in self-defense, but never with the intention to kill."

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/gettingmessage.html

    It would be possible to defend yourself physically, not arouse ill will internally and arouse compassion. To allow yourself to be assaulted, tortured, murdered etc would not be in line with the 8fold path or the middle way.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    really, the point at which you need to start cultivating compassion and forgiveness is while watching the video.
    Thankfully, I would say that the likelihood of any of us being personally exposed to such violence is extremely slim.
    However, exposure to such images is all too common nowadays, whether through media or fiction.
    If this kind of violence creates feelings of hostility and animosity - and you would fight with that emotional level - then really - you are no better than them....
    Cultivate the essential qualities of interconnectedness and forgiveness.
    That's where it's at.
  • Fighting to protect yourself is not the same as fighting with the intention to cause harm, unless rage or revenge turns your fight into something more than protection.

    I did see the video the OP mentioned, and wish I hadn't.... very disturbing. I just can't comprehend how a person can allow themselves to be such a sick brutal monster. I know that occasionally a person can have a mental disorder that they do not comprehend the impact of their actions, but to have a collection of people? I don't understand this. Sure we have had political and religeous powers gas and shoot people, but I don't ever recall any group taking delight in killing in such a slow, torturous evil way. I have been mentally scared.
  • "occasionally a person can have a mental disorder"

    The rate of violence in schizophrenics is lower than non in all areas aside from self-violence.
  • edited October 2011
    I agree with fede. Buddhism teaches non-violence and overcoming both hatred an violent tendencies. Obviously, what these kids did was horrible. But it's important to see these acts of barbarism for what they are - and to develop compassion and forgiveness.
    Yet, if someone comes at you with a hammer, you are going to react. You're naturally going to want to protect yourself. However, its what informs your reaction - your intentions - that really matters. Is it your intent to kill based on hatred or animosity, like the intention of those kids? What would separate yourself from them? Or is it to protect yourself, and to prevent further violence against others?

    One a side note, I have heard that when Bodhidharma brought the Ch'an (Zen) to Shaolin, he saw that the monks were so weak and malnourished that they couldn't complete the demanding meditation routines. So, along with the mind-training of Zen, he began teaching the monks exercises to help strengthen them physically. Eventually, these exercises evolved into the martial arts training known as kung fu.

    Bandits frequently attacked the Shaolin temple in search of treasures, and due to political turmoil the temple was also burned to the ground on several occasions. These events also helped the evolution of kung fu into a defensive martial arts which the monks used to protect their temple.
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited October 2011
    @Jeffrey "mental disorder" can mean any abnormality, so no reason to pick out schizophrenics.

    To help in your self appointed argument though, I'll share with you that my Brother-In-Law was visiting when he first developed schizophrenia... took us awhile to figure out was going on with him, but I do remember him getting nervous when we came home and I mentioned that we forgot to lock the back door (we were aware of his condition at this point). I then put a pizza in the oven. He was sure that someone came in the back door and poisoned the pizza, but we insisted that it was not poisoned and we were going to eat it anyways... he then asked me, if he was to eat the whole pizza by himself, could I find something else for his sister to eat? I thought it was pretty touching that he was willing to die to save his sister.
  • nice story Telly..
  • I was in the bank today and a strange looking man accused someone speaking with the non-teller people of being a rapist (speaking to the tellers). He said he had read about it in some magazine. Weird scene.
  • i remenber to have read somewhere that it is not wrong to kill somebody like an hitler, because you save many lifes when you do that.. it is choosing between killing one or many.. as for self defense i think buddhism tolerates it, cause the existence of the monks for example is the existence of the keepers of the dharma, and if the monks are killed by chinese for example,well no more dharma or teachings so no more buddhism..one has to protect his own life to be able to practise!and this is a very natural thing to protect yourself!but honestly i don t know if i am attacked if i am going to fight back i never experience that, i wonder if i am able to hit somebody..
  • Fighting to protect yourself is not the same as fighting with the intention to cause harm, unless rage or revenge turns your fight into something more than protection.

    I did see the video the OP mentioned, and wish I hadn't.... very disturbing. I just can't comprehend how a person can allow themselves to be such a sick brutal monster. I know that occasionally a person can have a mental disorder that they do not comprehend the impact of their actions, but to have a collection of people? I don't understand this. Sure we have had political and religeous powers gas and shoot people, but I don't ever recall any group taking delight in killing in such a slow, torturous evil way. I have been mentally scared.
    Yess you are right.

    They enjoyed killing life in such a torturous and natural way.

    They where not even poor nor sick to have any reason. They where just maniacs...



  • How can you even think humanity is good or that it worths anything when produces creatures that like do evil things for the sake of doing evil thins to theirs same specie and others?????

    This is true life and its hell. You dont know if the next morning a loved one or yourself will be in the hands of this "things".
  • Humanity did not produce theem. They made their choices. Their karma will probably land them in hell.
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    "Phagguna, if anyone were to reproach you right to your face, even then you should abandon those urges and thoughts which are worldly. There, Phagguna, you should train yourself thus: 'Neither shall my mind be affected by this, nor shall I give vent to evil words; but I shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and I shall not give in to hatred.' This is how, Phagguna, you should train yourself.

    "Phagguna, if anyone were to give you a blow with the hand, or hit you with a clod of earth, or with a stick, or with a sword, even then you should abandon those urges and thoughts which are worldly. There, Phagguna, you should train yourself thus: 'Neither shall my mind be affected by this, nor shall I give vent to evil words; but I shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and I shall not give in to hatred.' This is how, Phagguna, you should train yourself.

    "Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves.

  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    If you need to kill in that extreme situation to save your life but you know ill will will arise, then do it anyway.

    whatever
  • shanyinshanyin Novice Yogin Sault Ontario Veteran
    IMO.
  • Self defence out of fear may be the original intention but it often degenerates into hatred and need for vengeance. The act of defending self and seeking revenge is rooted in the sense of self.

    Ii is extremely difficult to not feel anger and hatred if one is defending oneself vigorously. Fear is a condition for hatred. The best option is to escape if possible.
  • I feel you talk about love and compassion but i see no love for the victims of what those maniacs did.

    Why you would not stop them from making such evil acts????? Where is the compassion and love not to save others out of the sake of fear of karma??

    Who cares to be enightened if you had a choice to stop those bastards whould you do it?

    Its not a form of selfishness not to intervene becouse of "bad karma"


    Do you guys even read or saw what this people do the poor man??????

    Do you guys even put yourself or a loved in the place of the victims????

    In what world can people have compassion for those monsters and where is the compassion for the victimss????

    Humanity is indeed evil starting with me.
  • Such hypothetical questions are a waste of time.

    IF such a thing happened, you will do whatever causes and conditions lead you to do.

    So how about cultivating compassion now, and stop worrying about these things which will never happen to you.
  • The Parable of the Saw

    "Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves.

    "Monks, if you should keep this instruction on the Parable of the Saw constantly in mind, do you see any mode of speech, subtle or gross, that you could not endure?"

    "No, Lord."

    "Therefore, monks, you should keep this instruction on the Parable of the Saw constantly in mind. That will conduce to your well-being and happiness for long indeed."


    Kakacupama Sutta: The Parable of the Saw
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.021x.budd.html

    *smile*
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran


    In what world can people have compassion for those monsters
    In the world in which one employs skillful thinking. That is what Buddhist practice is about. :)

  • I think it comes down to fight or flight - a person may be completely anti-violence but when it came down to it, if they or their family were being attacked, adrenaline, nature, instinct would take over. So who knows what any of us are capable of until we are put in that situation. Just my opinion

    Regards,,,


    B


  • In what world can people have compassion for those monsters
    In the world in which one employs skillful thinking. That is what Buddhist practice is about. :)

    Well i dont want to live in a world in wich people really give a F... about the suffering that other causes to living things for the sake of pleasure.

    In a wolrd in wich people care and have the selfish desire to become enlightened ingnoring the pain of victims and showing more compassion to this monsters.

    One of the human qualities when this things happend is to despise the actions and the people who made them.

    Its against life and humanity to show compassion to this kind of monsters and actions.

  • Such hypothetical questions are a waste of time.

    IF such a thing happened, you will do whatever causes and conditions lead you to do.

    So how about cultivating compassion now, and stop worrying about these things which will never happen to you.
    If its total waste of time dont bother in asnwering.

    I dont know in wich world you live in to say this things cannont happen to anybody.

    This things happend all around wolrd. They are now even in the internet.


    Whats worth a religon/philosophy what ever you wana call it, if its not tested in real life hard situations.


    And this things hapened to people just like you and me. Its not selfish to give a F... about what happened to the victims???
  • "Phagguna, if anyone were to reproach you right to your face, even then you should abandon those urges and thoughts which are worldly. There, Phagguna, you should train yourself thus: 'Neither shall my mind be affected by this, nor shall I give vent to evil words; but I shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and I shall not give in to hatred.' This is how, Phagguna, you should train yourself.

    "Phagguna, if anyone were to give you a blow with the hand, or hit you with a clod of earth, or with a stick, or with a sword, even then you should abandon those urges and thoughts which are worldly. There, Phagguna, you should train yourself thus: 'Neither shall my mind be affected by this, nor shall I give vent to evil words; but I shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and I shall not give in to hatred.' This is how, Phagguna, you should train yourself.

    "Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves.

    Can you at least try to defend yourself?? At least try...

    How can you love the world if you dont consider your life anyworth saving?

  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited October 2011


    In what world can people have compassion for those monsters
    In the world in which one employs skillful thinking. That is what Buddhist practice is about. :)

    Well i dont want to live in a world in wich people really give a F... about the suffering that other causes to living things for the sake of pleasure.

    In a wolrd in wich people care and have the selfish desire to become enlightened ingnoring the pain of victims and showing more compassion to this monsters.

    One of the human qualities when this things happend is to despise the actions and the people who made them.

    Its against life and humanity to show compassion to this kind of monsters and actions.

    You completely misunderstand everything I said and you completely misunderstand what Buddhism teaches. You seem to think that hating people that do bad things is required in order to have compassion for those that suffer. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, that is one million miles away from the truth. But you can not see the truth because you are blinded by hate and anger, that you bring upon yourself and you don't even know it. Your words are the opposite of what Buddhism teaches and the opposite of what the Buddha himself said. If you have an interest in practicing Buddhism, you should not dismiss what it teaches.

    >Its against life and humanity to show compassion to this kind of monsters and actions.

    That is called "wrong view".

  • Metta (good will / some translate it loving kindness or universal love) is often misunderstood.

    There is a good and not to long essay to understand it:
    Metta means good-will
    http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/CrossIndexed/Uncollected/MiscEssays/metta_means_goodwill.pdf

    *smile*
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2011

    Whats worth a religon/philosophy what ever you wana call it, if its not tested in real life hard situations.
    The problem is, a religion is not worth diddly-squat if it isn't practised correctly, in whatever situation you may find yourself, first- or third-hand.
    It's not the religion that is being tested.
    It's you.
    And so far, you're not getting it....
    And this things hapened to people just like you and me. Its not selfish to give a F... about what happened to the victims???
    It's not selfish to give a F... about what happened to the victims.
    It IS selfish to not give a F...about the perpetrators.

    GET THIS:

    BOTH - yes, both - are deserving of your unconditional Love, Compassion and kindness.

    That's what you're not getting.


  • BOTH - yes, both - are deserving of your unconditional Love, Compassion and kindness
    wisdom

  • In a wolrd in wich people care and have the selfish desire to become enlightened ingnoring the pain of victims
    this idea that the search for enlightenment, which is really the permanent removal of greed, hatred & ignorance from the mind, is somehow selfish is erroneous thinking.

    the reason horrible acts occur is because of the presence of greed, hatred & ignorance in the mind. so the causal solution would be to assist others in removing those qualities from the mind, and the only way one can do that is by achieving this for oneself and being able to clearly teach others an effective, experience based way to do this for themselves.

    the search for enlightenment is hardly selfish, it is a very very compassionate and beautiful thing to do.

  • Violence, even for self-defense, will lead to more violence. Don't forget the life of Gandhi who lived the Christian teaching of 'turn the other cheek' literally. He believed to sacrifice your body would soften the heart of your attacker and demonstrate to the attacker and others your resolve to follow the right way.

    That being said, I aspire to that level of greatness, but as I type this, I don't think I would pass that test. :p
  • I watched the video or website, whatever it was. that made me feel really sad :( why would someone do such things. :(((((
  • I watched the video or website, whatever it was. that made me feel really sad :( why would someone do such things. :(((((
    Hey you have to love them according to this people. They deserve love not punishment...
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Violence, even for self-defense, will lead to more violence. Don't forget the life of Gandhi who lived the Christian teaching of 'turn the other cheek' literally. .....
    Funny you should say that. 'Turn the other cheek' is quite appropriate. The teaching, biblically, actually means to 'strike back' without landing a blow, through placid defiance and peaceful, non-violent resistance to oppression....


    Hey you have to love them according to this people. They deserve love not punishment...
    Again, you have it wrong. Nobody anywhere has suggested they should not be punished. Of course they should, with the full weight of the Law. But that does not exempt them from loving kindness and compassion....

  • So we just send them metta while we watch them to be executed? :wave:
  • Violence, even for self-defense, will lead to more violence.
    No. This is really just sort of an empty sentiment. It's not logical. It's also very, very frustrating because it demonstrates a failure to appreciate the gravity of the choice that some people have been FORCED to make of taking away the life of another human being.

    The brutal reality of life is that some human beings are so deeply submerged in their own pain, despair and psychosis that they cannot be helped. They are out of control of themselves, or they are completely oblivious and insensitive to outside influence, because the voice of their pain screams too loudly into their ears. Sometimes these people express their suffering through violence. In such cases, the greatest act of compassion is to take their life away - or otherwise neutralize them - so that they do not destroy people around them with their pain and insanity. At this point, it's just a question of skillful means - how many people are you protecting by committing the 'sin' of murdering another human? I'm totally ok with committing this sin. I'd do it a 1000 times if it protected 1000 people.

    I don't mean to suggest, of course, that killing is an optimal solution to all social problems. The real challenge is to find a way to prevent people from becoming such damaged, lost souls to begin with. But we haven't done that, so we're faced with the secondary task of protecting individuals from the casualties of society.
  • He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me of my property. Whosoever harbor such thoughts will never be able to still their enmity.

    Never indeed is hatred stilled by hatred; it will only be stilled by non-hatred — this is an eternal law.

    — Dhp., vv. 4-5

    Do not speak harshly to anyone. Those who are harshly spoken to might retaliate against you. Angry words hurt other's feelings, even blows may overtake you in return.

    — Dhp., v. 133

    Forbearance is the highest observance. Patience is the highest virtue. So the Buddhas say.

    — Dhp., v. 184

    Let a man remove his anger. Let him root out his pride. Let him overcome all fetters of passions. No sufferings overtake him who neither clings to mind-and-body nor claims anything of the world.

    — Dhp., v. 221

    Conquer anger by non-anger. Conquer evil by good. Conquer miserliness by liberality. Conquer a liar by truthfulness.

    — Dhp., v. 223

    Guard your mind against an outburst of wrong feelings. Keep your mind controlled. Renouncing evil thoughts, develop purity of mind.

    — Dhp., v. 233

    :wave:
  • This is one of my favorite poems...


    Call Me by My True Names

    Do not say that I'll depart tomorrow
    because even today I still arrive.

    Look deeply: I arrive in every second
    to be a bud on a spring branch,
    to be a tiny bird, with wings still fragile,
    learning to sing in my new nest,
    to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
    to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

    I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
    in order to fear and to hope.
    The rhythm of my heart is the birth and
    death of all that are alive.

    I am the mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river,
    and I am the bird which, when spring comes, arrives in time
    to eat the mayfly.

    I am the frog swimming happily in the clear pond,
    and I am also the grass-snake who, approaching in silence,
    feeds itself on the frog.

    I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
    my legs as thin as bamboo sticks,
    and I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to
    Uganda.

    I am the twelve-year-old girl, refugee on a small boat,
    who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea
    pirate,
    and I am the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and
    loving.

    I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my
    hands,
    and I am the man who has to pay his "debt of blood" to, my
    people,
    dying slowly in a forced labor camp.

    My joy is like spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom in all
    walks of life.
    My pain if like a river of tears, so full it fills the four oceans.

    Please call me by my true names,
    so I can hear all my cries and laughs at once,
    so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

    Please call me by my true names,
    so I can wake up,
    and so the door of my heart can be left open,
    the door of compassion.

    Thich Nhat Hanh
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited October 2011
    So we just send them metta while we watch them to be executed?
    No Buddhist I know supports the Death Penalty.
    But while every criminal who carries out an unlawful act, should certainly be punished according to the law, this does not mean we should measure, restrain or withhold our compassion for them as a Human being who is clearly suffering.
    They may know this, or not.
    They may admit to this or not.
    They may not care about this, one way or the other.
    The important factor is that we recognise it, and understand it, and are Compassionate.

    'Metta to all beings' shows no discrimination, for any reason whatsoever.

  • I wounder if there is any "Buddhist" who believes in punishment as a solution. Of cause people do. Maybe they need to hire some Non-Buddhists to do that. :wave:
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Punishment is a solution. But it must be constructive punishment, appropriate to the crime. However, execution - like suicide - is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Not skilful.
  • HanzzeHanzze Veteran
    edited October 2011
    So you like to beat them while recite "tayatha om bekhanze bekhanze maha bekhanze..." or the metta sutta. Well the inquisition did such things as well.

    Our ways of judgement have less possibilities to judge intention rightly. If we could judge right and wrong intention, we would not have enough paper to write only the allegation down. What do you like to judge?

    What about teaching and explaining? I know we have less time, but thought of we would have...what do you think?
  • It's not really about punishment. It's not about judgement. It's not about inflicting a moral lesson through violence. It's about removal. Protecting other people.

    Not everyone is receptive to "teaching and explaining" once they've reached a certain level.
  • So you can protect others for ripping karma? I hear about people teaching such things.

    Maybe the idea in Buddhism is to change karma (action) and not that much its results.

    To tell somebody I beat you, because you wouldn't understand if I teach you... I am not sure if that is a worthy excuse. For sure there are times we are not really at peace for our self. But should that be a worthy excuse? :wave:
  • It's really kind of a mathematical issue when you get down to it. How many lives will you allow a sexual predator to wreck before you decide that it's ok to deprive this person of his or her freedom? At what point do we display compassion towards someone's potential victims by excising such a person from our culture?
  • HanzzeHanzze Veteran
    edited October 2011
    Yes, its a mathematics issue. Every unwholesome action have a unwholesome ripping. So if you what to reduce the unwholesome action which would reduce the unwholesome ripping you need to teach. We can prevent others form doing wrong, but not from the results after done. Thinking so we push the wheel of suffering on and on.

    The fuller or prisons, the worse our society and understanding of Dharma. The more laws the more silly the people.

    That's business as usual, don't we like to make change when understanding that cause comes before the effect. :wave:
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