Meditation alone will not bring enlightenment

kashi

There are a few things I would say one needs to be aware of if you are new to buddhism. One thing is, there are a lot of "meditation teachers" out there who are saying meditation alone can make you reach enlightenment. But this is not the case according to the suttas. You have to have an understanding of the four noble truths and the cause of suffering, which will lead you to right view. Having right view is the first step in following the 8 fold path, and following the 8 fold path is what will lead you to enlightenment. The Buddha himself became enlightened durring meditation ONLY because he recalled a past life and saw he was at one time a student of a previous Buddha, and remembered the 4 noble truths. Once he understood them clearly, he pushed further until he understood the 12 links of dependant origination, and then the way to stop suffering by way of the 8 fold path.

So unless you do the same, and remember a past life in which you happened to be a student of the buddha and remember the teachings, there is no reason to just meditate. We have everything available to us in books, online, etc so we need to understand the dhamma. The Buddha laid out the road map for us.

So in short, dont get caught up in this new age "buddhist-ish" way of thinking and putting meditation at the forefront of your practice.

1. Study the suttas/suttras
2. take the 5 precepts seriously everyday!
3. meditation.

Peace and happiness to you all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May all beings be well and happy

May all beings be free of suffering

May all beings come to know the true Dhamma

RebeccaS

Didn't the Buddha just sit under the tree and meditate until he became enlightened?

kashi

RebeccaS said:

Didn't the Buddha just sit under the tree and meditate until he became enlightened?

Yes, but before that he practiced years of other methods that did not work until he understood there has to be a middle way...and again, during his time under the Bodhi tree he only became enlightened due to remembering what a different Buddha had said about the 4 noble truths.

RebeccaS

The 4NT came from someone else?! Who? I did not know this!

kashi

There is a sutta where the Buddha spoke of previous Buddhas who came before him...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_twenty-eight_Buddhas for more info

RebeccaS

Cool! Thanks

kashi

lol...your welcome

BhikkhuJayasara

The buddha did not "create" the 4NT and the 8fold path, he found them, as he explains here -

"It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous.

"In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration... I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path.

"Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings."

— SN 12.65


anyways I'm a bit confused as to the point of the OP... The buddha did speak about Sila(morality), Samadhi (concentration) and Panna (wisdom) being cultivated. So I think it would of made more sense if he put an emphasis on the fact that the path is just not meditation in that regard.. maybe it's just the wording that is confusing me.

we know the buddha taught that if you live by the precepts , you give a gift of fearlessness to all beings and that in turn you can share in that fearlessness, so the more skillful your actions the less things you worry about = the clearer your mind which = the easier to gain concentration which = wisdom/insight.

kashi

My apologies if the wording to my post is a bit unclear, I do agree with "we know the buddha taught that if you live by the precepts , you give a gift of fearlessness to all beings and that in turn you can share in that fearlessness, so the more skillful your actions the less things you worry about = the clearer your mind which = the easier to gain concentration which = wisdom/insight."

My point was mainly that meditation alone can not make one enlightened. One needs to follow the Dhamma in all aspects in its entirety....in short, the 4 noble truths to be understood, to follow the 8 fold path, and not to put meditation as the most important part of practice as some teachers have lead people to believe.
Meditation is important, but without the morals, wisdom and insight of the Dhamma one can not become enlightened.

BhikkhuJayasara

kashi said:

My apologies if the wording to my post is a bit unclear, I do agree with "we know the buddha taught that if you live by the precepts , you give a gift of fearlessness to all beings and that in turn you can share in that fearlessness, so the more skillful your actions the less things you worry about = the clearer your mind which = the easier to gain concentration which = wisdom/insight."

My point was mainly that meditation alone can not make one enlightened. One needs to follow the Dhamma in all aspects in its entirety....in short, the 4 noble truths to be understood, to follow the 8 fold path, and not to put meditation as the most important part of practice as some teachers have lead people to believe.
Meditation is important, but without the morals, wisdom and insight of the Dhamma one can not become enlightened.

agreed 100% and this IS something that people new to Buddhism should definitely be taught.

how

There are so many folks out there amidst the struggles of their own practise who are so certain of the light, the truth and the only way for everyone else. I think that whether your entry into practise is by meditation, service to others or scriptural analysis, when all conditions ripen, the student will traverse them.
It's reasonable to hold up our own discovered truth for others to see but is best tempered with the knowledge that few things stultify being present and open to this moment of practise like spiritual righteousness.

If anyone knows of a Buddhist teacher who doesn't include the 4NT & 8FP with a meditation practise.....Do tell, with a small explanation why they think that teacher is Buddhist.

Jeffrey

You can't know the eightfold path like for the test. Exam on Monday. You can only have unshakeable trust in the eightfold path. Not sure how far that goes; it's hard to know what all the mahasattvas think about the means to attain enlightenment. Thus anything said is probably just like the chirping of birds.

misecmisc1

i think sila(morality), samadhi(concentration) and panna(wisdom) are equally important. each supports the other two. but i think the thing, which should be given maximum focus, should be meditation because it is this practice which helps us to examine the validity of our beliefs and hence removes the doubts and helps us to create a solid refuge for us, because except this - everything else is just a belief.

DairyLama

RebeccaS said:

Didn't the Buddha just sit under the tree and meditate until he became enlightened?

Basically he did. But with a determination which seems far beyond what most us could aspire to.

lobster

. . . . I became more and more inspired and excited. I especially relished the bit where the Buddha-to-be sat at the root of the Bodhi Tree and made that earth-shaking resolution:
'Though my blood dries up and my bones turn to dust, I will not move from this spot until I have penetrated to Supreme and Complete Enlightenment!'

read all about it . . .
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_Chah_SEEING_THE_WAY.htm#BECOMING%20ENLIGHTENED

zombiegirl

@how After years with the soka gakkai group of Nichiren Buddhism, I had never been taught the 4NT or 8FP. This is one of the reasons I left. Nichiren himself studied all of the sutras, but the SGI only studied the works of Nichiren.

Tosh

I don't think I have to look to the suttas to know I couldn't get 'enlightened' purely by meditation, I just have to look to my own experience.

When I first stopped drinking (I'm an alkie) I tried to meditate and be mindful after reading The Power of Now by Tolle, it just didn't work. I couldn't meditate or be mindful when I was worried about bailiffs catching me, regularly fighting with my family, and carrying a huge amount of resentment, guilt and shame around with me.

We first have to learn (yes learn) how to live an ethical life and gain some measure of inner peace before we start meditating, because without that we won't be able to meditate at all - we'll be too restless, irritable, discontented; anxious even to sit still. After a minute my brain was attacking me.

Meditation is only part of the solution, not the solution itself; IME.

how

@ zombiegirl
Yeah, The only folks of Nichiren Shoshu (2) that I've met seemed pretty unique in the what they sought.

BhikkhuJayasara

lobster said:

. . . . I became more and more inspired and excited. I especially relished the bit where the Buddha-to-be sat at the root of the Bodhi Tree and made that earth-shaking resolution:
'Though my blood dries up and my bones turn to dust, I will not move from this spot until I have penetrated to Supreme and Complete Enlightenment!'

read all about it . . .
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_Chah_SEEING_THE_WAY.htm#BECOMING%20ENLIGHTENED

that is an amazing statement, although I was always more partial to the point where the buddha puts his hand on the earth and says the earth is his witness.. I'm not sure why but I still get an amazing feeling when thinking of that.

zombiegirl

@how Well, to clarify, the reason they practice as such is because Nichiren says over and over again that he found the Lotus Sutra to be superior. I guess that is why they feel okay cutting out the rest of it. It's not fair to say we ONLY studied the works of Nichiren because we also studied the LS extensively. I also think that the Nichiren Shu/Shoshu study a little more widely than the SGI.

But oddly enough, they do not meditate... at least, not like most would consider meditation. Our practice involved recitation of sutras and chanting for sometimes as much as an hour or so... but never just silence. Chanting was always viewed as a means to an end, however. They had it worked out how many daimoku (each repetition of 'nam myoho renge kyo') one accomplishes at the typical rate of chanting per hour and I was actually given a Japanese book titled "Happiness Bank" with little boxes I was meant to check off for each half an hour of chanting. It was said that if I chanted one million daimoku with a single goal in mind, I would accomplish this goal.

Do you guys view chanting as meditation? Having done both, I'm not sure. There is a point where chanting becomes so rhythmic that it fades into the background like an almost palpable ebb and flow. This was especially apparent when surrounded by a group of people all chanting with the same cadence. At these times, you could almost feel a connection to your surroundings, as though you were simultaneously one with the whole while still contributing. It's interesting, but it's always seemed more like an experience to me that doesn't stick beyond when you are actually doing it... not the same as mindfulness training.

BhikkhuJayasara

zombiegirl said:

@how Well, to clarify, the reason they practice as such is because Nichiren says over and over again that he found the Lotus Sutra to be superior. I guess that is why they feel okay cutting out the rest of it. It's not fair to say we ONLY studied the works of Nichiren because we also studied the LS extensively. I also think that the Nichiren Shu/Shoshu study a little more widely than the SGI.

But oddly enough, they do not meditate... at least, not like most would consider meditation. Our practice involved recitation of sutras and chanting for sometimes as much as an hour or so... but never just silence. Chanting was always viewed as a means to an end, however. They had it worked out how many daimoku (each repetition of 'nam myoho renge kyo') one accomplishes at the typical rate of chanting per hour and I was actually given a Japanese book titled "Happiness Bank" with little boxes I was meant to check off for each half an hour of chanting. It was said that if I chanted one million daimoku with a single goal in mind, I would accomplish this goal.

Do you guys view chanting as meditation? Having done both, I'm not sure. There is a point where chanting becomes so rhythmic that it fades into the background like an almost palpable ebb and flow. This was especially apparent when surrounded by a group of people all chanting with the same cadence. At these times, you could almost feel a connection to your surroundings, as though you were simultaneously one with the whole while still contributing. It's interesting, but it's always seemed more like an experience to me that doesn't stick beyond when you are actually doing it... not the same as mindfulness training.

in Theravada from what I've seen the chanting is basically chanting the suttas, but it is not done for purposes of meditation, but rather for remembering the teachings for when you meditate and in your daily life.

the monks will chant things like the reflection on requisites " this is food, it is used not for enjoyment but for the continuation of this body " etc etc. or teachings or puja etc. but it's not a form of meditation itself.

how

@zombiegirl
Meditation has as many definitions and flexible parameters as there are practitioners so I for one will stay out of saying what is or is not meditation.

I am kind of a one trick pony in that I mainly practise Shiken Taza or Serene Reflection Meditation which allows phenomena to arise, live and pass on without our habitual manipulations. It is really the practise of not feeding the Ego. I choose it for the efficacy of being able to practise it anywhere, anytime, but I'm sure we are all prejudiced about our own chosen practises. In the last 39 years in both monastic and worldly practise it has been my path.

lobster

I once attended a lunch time practice of the FWBO In Covent Garden, London. Looking around I was able to gauge who was making progress. It is one of the few 'siddhis' I am deluded enough to have. The depth of the teacher was not very great but there was one old lady exuding considerable development.
The 'teacher'/facilitator explained the practice and asked for any questions. The little old lady asked a question that went completely over the instructors head but he was unaware of this and answered as best he could. It turned out this woman was totally self taught. She had learned from a book and was now, as advised in books, attending more direct tuition. From the nature of her question it was clear she required further advice . . .

In a sense we can all attend instruction, in person, via youtube, via a correspondence and if fortunate by attendance and retreat. Books and sutras too can inspire and instruct. I read for many, many years. It was only the commitment and practice, that began the process of change. Knowledge can be dry. It needs water.
We can all start. Some will persevere. All can awake. Do not expect awakening, work towards change and application. Gently.

. . . what happened to the little old lady? . . . that is another story . . .
http://viewonbuddhism.org/meditation_practice.html

caz

zombiegirl said:

@how Well, to clarify, the reason they practice as such is because Nichiren says over and over again that he found the Lotus Sutra to be superior. I guess that is why they feel okay cutting out the rest of it. It's not fair to say we ONLY studied the works of Nichiren because we also studied the LS extensively. I also think that the Nichiren Shu/Shoshu study a little more widely than the SGI.

But oddly enough, they do not meditate... at least, not like most would consider meditation. Our practice involved recitation of sutras and chanting for sometimes as much as an hour or so... but never just silence. Chanting was always viewed as a means to an end, however. They had it worked out how many daimoku (each repetition of 'nam myoho renge kyo') one accomplishes at the typical rate of chanting per hour and I was actually given a Japanese book titled "Happiness Bank" with little boxes I was meant to check off for each half an hour of chanting. It was said that if I chanted one million daimoku with a single goal in mind, I would accomplish this goal.

Do you guys view chanting as meditation? Having done both, I'm not sure. There is a point where chanting becomes so rhythmic that it fades into the background like an almost palpable ebb and flow. This was especially apparent when surrounded by a group of people all chanting with the same cadence. At these times, you could almost feel a connection to your surroundings, as though you were simultaneously one with the whole while still contributing. It's interesting, but it's always seemed more like an experience to me that doesn't stick beyond when you are actually doing it... not the same as mindfulness training.

Mantra's are Mind protection in Vajrayana one collects alot of them however it is in conjunction usually with other practices, However a school that just collects Mantra's and Ignores essentials like the 4 noble truths or proper concentration and insight meditation sounds a bit of to me.

The Lotus Sutra being a part of the Mahayana Corpus I would expect one to receive some teachings on the Importance of generating Bodhichitta as well.

Citta

lobster said:

I once attended a lunch time practice of the FWBO In Covent Garden, London. Looking around I was able to gauge who was making progress. It is one of the few 'siddhis' I am deluded enough to have. The depth of the teacher was not very great but there was one old lady exuding considerable development.
The 'teacher'/facilitator explained the practice and asked for any questions. The little old lady asked a question that went completely over the instructors head but he was unaware of this and answered as best he could. It turned out this woman was totally self taught. She had learned from a book and was now, as advised in books, attending more direct tuition. From the nature of her question it was clear she required further advice . . .

In a sense we can all attend instruction, in person, via youtube, via a correspondence and if fortunate by attendance and retreat. Books and sutras too can inspire and instruct. I read for many, many years. It was only the commitment and practice, that began the process of change. Knowledge can be dry. It needs water.
We can all start. Some will persevere. All can awake. Do not expect awakening, work towards change and application. Gently.

. . . what happened to the little old lady? . . . that is another story . . .
http://viewonbuddhism.org/meditation_practice.html

Gosh.. you were able to judge the little old lady AND see the inferior development of the instructor...AND you are able to create a non stop series of puns and witty neologisms while gently hinting at your own attainments from which pinnacle you are able to grade others....The rest of us are clearly honoured to have you among us.

lobster

The rest of us are clearly honoured to have you among us.

Always glad to honour trolls and those without the delusion of siddhis.

You seem very angry with me and it comes over as sarcasm. Qualities I know very well. As I am clearly beyond your capacity to help. What can we do to ease the suffering I seem to instil in you? Or am I mistaking your comment for kind concern for those who might start treating me with the same veneration or negative veneration you seem to be so able to find . . . ?
Or am I deluded further yet? You are not trolling. You are kind and trying to educate me in correct mindfulness? If so I am grateful.

DairyLama

zombiegirl said:

@how After years with the soka gakkai group of Nichiren Buddhism, I had never been taught the 4NT or 8FP. This is one of the reasons I left. Nichiren himself studied all of the sutras, but the SGI only studied the works of Nichiren.

I once visited a Nichiren group and was suprised by how little they knew about Buddhism.

Citta

lobster said:

I once attended a lunch time practice of the FWBO In Covent Garden, London. Looking around I was able to gauge who was making progress. It is one of the few 'siddhis' I am deluded enough to have. The depth of the teacher was not very great but there was one old lady exuding considerable development.
The 'teacher'/facilitator explained the practice and asked for any questions. The little old lady asked a question that went completely over the instructors head but he was unaware of this and answered as best he could. It turned out this woman was totally self taught. She had learned from a book and was now, as advised in books, attending more direct tuition. From the nature of her question it was clear she required further advice . . .

In a sense we can all attend instruction, in person, via youtube, via a correspondence and if fortunate by attendance and retreat. Books and sutras too can inspire and instruct. I read for many, many years. It was only the commitment and practice, that began the process of change. Knowledge can be dry. It needs water.
We can all start. Some will persevere. All can awake. Do not expect awakening, work towards change and application. Gently.

. . . what happened to the little old lady? . . . that is another story . . .
http://viewonbuddhism.org/meditation_practice.html

lobster said:

The rest of us are clearly honoured to have you among us.

Always glad to honour trolls and those without the delusion of siddhis.

You seem very angry with me and it comes over as sarcasm. Qualities I know very well. As I am clearly beyond your capacity to help. What can we do to ease the suffering I seem to instil in you? Or am I mistaking your comment for kind concern for those who might start treating me with the same veneration or negative veneration you seem to be so able to find . . . ?
Or am I deluded further yet? You are not trolling. You are kind and trying to educate me in correct mindfulness? If so I am grateful.




So there IS a human being in there ?
Not just a punbot with a repertoire of self regard ?
Thats actually a relief.

DairyLama

lobster said:

I once attended a lunch time practice of the FWBO In Covent Garden, London. The depth of the teacher was not very great but there was one old lady exuding considerable development.

That kind of thing happens quite often with public classes.

Citta

And most of us do not congratulate ourselves for noticing. And we certainly do not look around to " gauge who was making progress " sheesh.

Vastmind

Citta said:

And most of us do not congratulate ourselves for noticing. And we certainly do not look around to " gauge who was making progress " sheesh.

Kemosabe?.....With all due respect,
the word fart seems to annoy you.
I do see that Lobster and his delivery is not
for everyone....but then what might you be
saying about me, that might learn things once in
awhile from him?
HIs imagination I get. The ego trip....maybe.
We all have that problem, I think.
Everyone is gauging each other.
Let's be honest.
I like this forum, because there are
guys with ties....and guys that like to
play fish. Or Chess. hahaha

Citta

Vastminds the word " fart" neither thrills nor annoys me.
But anyone who goes to a Buddhist teaching and" looks around to gauge the progress of the other people attending "..or the teacher..whether accurately or otherwise,
should not be messing with any of this imo.

To spend time at a Buddhist teaching, which is entirely to do with developing awareness of one's OWN actions and responses, and to use that time gauging the " progress" of others based on real or imagined "siddhis " displays a degree of arrogance and cluelessness which is frankly breathtaking. It is no less so if the " siddhis" in question are genuine.

Vastmind

I think my definition of gauge might be a little
different than yours, so ok.

I was attempting to present the concept
of the word fart and lesson....not
enforce the reaction...
sheesh..I'm not good at this. hahaha
so again....ok.
Didn't mean to throw a rock.

No offense to Lobster...but
you might be giving him too much
credit. lololol

Florian

It is not my impression that one has to learn the four noble truths from any source other than ones own practice. They may not come out as a neat list, but to say that they cannot be learnt in practice is a claim that cannot be supported by any evidence other than heresay. It is an opinion, and at best it is a claim to ignorance. It seems to be saying do not be a lamp unto yourself.

Citta

The fact is this forum is read by a wide range of people...including those who are sincere but inexperienced. They cannot necessarily make allowances...they read an apparently experienced forum member advocating ( for themselves at least ) using their time at a Buddhist teaching assessing the " progress" of others...and clearly in one case at least finding them wanting.
Rather like the monk in an earlier anecdote from the same source who was similarly found wanting and had to rescued by our intrepid chronicler doing a pratfall to the floor...
There is a bit of a pattern emerging here.

Vastmind

^^ I will take what you say into consideration.
My point still wasn't really about the particular
lobster, so...again...I'm sure the mis-communication
is on my part.

Kemosabe

lobster

Strange as it may seem we all make evaluations about our and other peoples understanding. If somone asks a question that we can answer we may do so. We may not. This is the nature of our inherent capacity towards friendliness. I have been helped or advised by people where they meant well but their advice was innapropriate. I have also been taught and encouraged were this was needed. I have been helped by others in subtle ways that are not part of my present capacity to know or understand. That is the nature of the path. Information exchange is a very minor part of the path, despite some peoples belief that it is primary.
Whether you care to know it or not, I was able to answer the question of the woman, in a way that satisfied her. It was not the best answer ever given, but the well meaning teacher was just a facilitator and the question was not within his ability. This is nothing to do with the worth of the partcipants. It is to do with evaluation, recognition and projection of ones best intent. Each person, just like here is doing there best.
I will continue to sense what people want to hear, what they are able to hear and what it is best to say and what best not to say. I also trust everyone else is doing similar . . .

zenff

kashi said:

...The Buddha himself became enlightened durring meditation ONLY because he recalled a past life...

So unless you do the same, and remember a past life in which you happened to be a student of the buddha and remember the teachings, there is no reason to just meditate....
So in short, dont get caught up in this new age "buddhist-ish" way of thinking and putting meditation at the forefront of your practice.

...May all beings come to know the true Dhamma...

Can I read the OP as something else as another demand that we should accept rebirth before practice has any real meaning; and as not another dogmatic claim that those who do not accept the idea are ”budhist-ish” at best?

I believe I heard that in the Theravada-tradition it is accepted that not all arahants (being enlightened and all) have memories of past lives. Just like other supernatural powers such memories are considered possible but not essential. Enlightenment is something else.
An arahant – in my understanding –is enlightened when he breaks the chains of samsara. That’s not something intellectual; it happens on a deeper level of consciousness; it is a fundamental psychological transformation.
I think faith in the idea of rebirth is neither essential before nor after this transformation.

And yes I agree that meditation should be integrated with the way we think and with the way we live our lives; so it is meditation plus wisdom and morality.

Citta

Well said Zenff.

Jason

zenff said:

kashi said:

...The Buddha himself became enlightened durring meditation ONLY because he recalled a past life...

So unless you do the same, and remember a past life in which you happened to be a student of the buddha and remember the teachings, there is no reason to just meditate....
So in short, dont get caught up in this new age "buddhist-ish" way of thinking and putting meditation at the forefront of your practice.

...May all beings come to know the true Dhamma...

Can I read the OP as something else as another demand that we should accept rebirth before practice has any real meaning; and as not another dogmatic claim that those who do not accept the idea are ”budhist-ish” at best?

I believe I heard that in the Theravada-tradition it is accepted that not all arahants (being enlightened and all) have memories of past lives. Just like other supernatural powers such memories are considered possible but not essential. Enlightenment is something else.

That is true (e.g., see SN 12.70, where the Buddha explains to Susima that the development of psychic powers, including recollection of past lives, isn't a prerequisite for awakening).

zenff

@Jason, thank you for that quote !
And thanks @Citta.

andyrobyn

Citta said:

Vastminds the word " fart" neither thrills nor annoys me.
But anyone who goes to a Buddhist teaching and" looks around to gauge the progress of the other people attending "..or the teacher..whether accurately or otherwise,
should not be messing with any of this imo.

To spend time at a Buddhist teaching, which is entirely to do with developing awareness of one's OWN actions and responses, and to use that time gauging the " progress" of others based on real or imagined "siddhis " displays a degree of arrogance and cluelessness which is frankly breathtaking. It is no less so if the " siddhis" in question are genuine.

I think that could be the very point that Lobster was making - ... well, maybe more accurately wanting to get made. From my experience online, there are many individual posters who do a lot of this ... I do not think it can be good for them, however. My teachers have not employed such methods and I do not post online for this reason. As I have seen written many times online ... it is always best to relax and take a deep breath before reacting to another post .... often we are being " played with " -lol.

Jeffrey

Citta said:

The fact is this forum is read by a wide range of people...including those who are sincere but inexperienced. They cannot necessarily make allowances...they read an apparently experienced forum member advocating ( for themselves at least ) using their time at a Buddhist teaching assessing the " progress" of others...and clearly in one case at least finding them wanting.
Rather like the monk in an earlier anecdote from the same source who was similarly found wanting and had to rescued by our intrepid chronicler doing a pratfall to the floor...
There is a bit of a pattern emerging here.

The irony is that you are judging lobsters progress.

how

Each tradition and their followers often have a line drawn in the sand where "humour will not pass."
Those crossing such a line can often be observed after, looking like they've stepped in something unpleasant.
The problem with such a line is that often it's just another tradition's sacred cow that's been penned up for so long that no one can approach it without walking in crap.

Jason

Citta said:

lobster said:

I once attended a lunch time practice of the FWBO In Covent Garden, London. Looking around I was able to gauge who was making progress. It is one of the few 'siddhis' I am deluded enough to have. The depth of the teacher was not very great but there was one old lady exuding considerable development.
The 'teacher'/facilitator explained the practice and asked for any questions. The little old lady asked a question that went completely over the instructors head but he was unaware of this and answered as best he could. It turned out this woman was totally self taught. She had learned from a book and was now, as advised in books, attending more direct tuition. From the nature of her question it was clear she required further advice . . .

In a sense we can all attend instruction, in person, via youtube, via a correspondence and if fortunate by attendance and retreat. Books and sutras too can inspire and instruct. I read for many, many years. It was only the commitment and practice, that began the process of change. Knowledge can be dry. It needs water.
We can all start. Some will persevere. All can awake. Do not expect awakening, work towards change and application. Gently.

. . . what happened to the little old lady? . . . that is another story . . .
http://viewonbuddhism.org/meditation_practice.html

Gosh.. you were able to judge the little old lady AND see the inferior development of the instructor...AND you are able to create a non stop series of puns and witty neologisms while gently hinting at your own attainments from which pinnacle you are able to grade others....The rest of us are clearly honoured to have you among us.

lobster said:

The rest of us are clearly honoured to have you among us.

Always glad to honour trolls and those without the delusion of siddhis.

You seem very angry with me and it comes over as sarcasm. Qualities I know very well. As I am clearly beyond your capacity to help. What can we do to ease the suffering I seem to instil in you? Or am I mistaking your comment for kind concern for those who might start treating me with the same veneration or negative veneration you seem to be so able to find . . . ?
Or am I deluded further yet? You are not trolling. You are kind and trying to educate me in correct mindfulness? If so I am grateful.



Frankly, these kinds of aggressive and snarky exchanges are unneeded and unwanted. Either play nice, or ruin the discussion for everyone else by forcing me to close it.

kashi

zenff said:

kashi said:

...The Buddha himself became enlightened durring meditation ONLY because he recalled a past life...

So unless you do the same, and remember a past life in which you happened to be a student of the buddha and remember the teachings, there is no reason to just meditate....
So in short, dont get caught up in this new age "buddhist-ish" way of thinking and putting meditation at the forefront of your practice.

...May all beings come to know the true Dhamma...

Can I read the OP as something else as another demand that we should accept rebirth before practice has any real meaning; and as not another dogmatic claim that those who do not accept the idea are ”budhist-ish” at best?

I believe I heard that in the Theravada-tradition it is accepted that not all arahants (being enlightened and all) have memories of past lives. Just like other supernatural powers such memories are considered possible but not essential. Enlightenment is something else.
An arahant – in my understanding –is enlightened when he breaks the chains of samsara. That’s not something intellectual; it happens on a deeper level of consciousness; it is a fundamental psychological transformation.
I think faith in the idea of rebirth is neither essential before nor after this transformation.

And yes I agree that meditation should be integrated with the way we think and with the way we live our lives; so it is meditation plus wisdom and morality.

Im not sure you have to believe in rebirth to become enlightened....although it would fall into the Right View catagory...
\What Im saying is that the Buddha recalled a past life, in which he saw he was a follower of a past Buddha. And the past Buddha taught Gotama the 4nt's....When Gotama remember them, it lead to all other understandings to which then he became enlightened and became a Buddha as well.

I am pretty sure once anybody became enlightened they would know that rebirth is real....but im not sure 100% if one could be enlightened without knowing about rebirth since like I stated above, that falls into Right View.
Just like believing in kama, the 4 nt, having faith in the dhamma, seeing things as they really are etc etc....

kashi

zombiegirl said:

@how After years with the soka gakkai group of Nichiren Buddhism, I had never been taught the 4NT or 8FP. This is one of the reasons I left. Nichiren himself studied all of the sutras, but the SGI only studied the works of Nichiren.

Thats interesting...I was looking into Nichiren Buddhism one time. I like the Nam myho Renge Kyo and its meaning...but reading the lotus suttra, well, it just does not seem to go hand in hand with the suttas found in the nikayas. Its kind of shocking that they never told you about the very basics of buddhas teachings.

hermitwin

i agree with evrything you say.

but i would like to add that in order to meditate well,
one needs to surrender or let go, so if one can
meditate well, you are half way there.

kashi said:

There are a few things I would say one needs to be aware of if you are new to buddhism. One thing is, there are a lot of "meditation teachers" out there who are saying meditation alone can make you reach enlightenment. But this is not the case according to the suttas. You have to have an understanding of the four noble truths and the cause of suffering, which will lead you to right view. Having right view is the first step in following the 8 fold path, and following the 8 fold path is what will lead you to enlightenment. The Buddha himself became enlightened durring meditation ONLY because he recalled a past life and saw he was at one time a student of a previous Buddha, and remembered the 4 noble truths. Once he understood them clearly, he pushed further until he understood the 12 links of dependant origination, and then the way to stop suffering by way of the 8 fold path.

So unless you do the same, and remember a past life in which you happened to be a student of the buddha and remember the teachings, there is no reason to just meditate. We have everything available to us in books, online, etc so we need to understand the dhamma. The Buddha laid out the road map for us.

So in short, dont get caught up in this new age "buddhist-ish" way of thinking and putting meditation at the forefront of your practice.

1. Study the suttas/suttras
2. take the 5 precepts seriously everyday!
3. meditation.

Peace and happiness to you all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May all beings be well and happy

May all beings be free of suffering

May all beings come to know the true Dhamma

Daozen

"Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened people, just enlightened actions."
- Shunryu Suzuki

The path to enlightenment is 3-fold: wisdom, compassion, and meditation. These 3 elements are mutually reinforcing.

driedleaf

Meditation would be the best foothold out of the three IMO.

DairyLama

kashi said:

Having right view is the first step in following the 8 fold path, and following the 8 fold path is what will lead you to enlightenment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/index.html