It is said buddhism isnt based on 'faith' - but do we not need 'faith' that enlightenment 'exists'

zenmyste

Firstly, even practising buddhists, monks and lay people dont exactly know or agree with what 'enlightenment' is.

It seems like Everyone has their 'own' concept or idea of what it is..

Secondly, even if you 'do' believe in enlightenment , surely its only a faith/belief that it exists and also you need a little 'faith' that the buddhist path will get you there!

(Just like christianity has 'faith' there is a god! Buddhism has faith there is 'enlightenment')

What are your thoughts?


(Ps , im only asking out of interest - im not slating either buddhism 'or' christianity)

Nevermind

Some believe that it's not about belief, oddly, but I think this is a reactionary position rather than a more accepting or realistic one.

David

I don't know... From what I understand of the term it seems to me that there are examples of enlightened beings.

Therefore I can have faith that we can all achieve the same level of awareness if we practice without needing faith in what enlightenment is exactly.

Straight_Man

ourself said:

I don't know... From what I understand of the term it seems to me that there are examples of enlightened beings.

Therefore I can have faith that we can all achieve the same level of awareness if we practice without needing faith in what enlightenment is exactly.

Is having faith relying on a being? No. Faith is relying on something, whether it be concrete or non-concrete. Buddhism teaches that all trueness of existence is of non-concrete existence-- of existence of beingness.

Since I am basically saying I agree with you, please do not think I argue.

Jeffrey

We have faith the sun comes up. It's like trusting a tour guide. Only one way to find out.

zenmyste

Jeffrey said:

We have faith the sun comes up. It's like trusting a tour guide. Only one way to find out.

The sun rising is a scientific fact. There is no faith

Faith would be thinking the sun is a higher power like a GOD - (thats to me, a faith/belief)

Something that isnt a scientific 'fact' but we hope it 'will' be

genkaku

The Zen teacher Ummon once observed, more or less: "When you can't say it, it's there. When you don't say it, it's missing." If all anyone could do was to 'explain' such an observation, what good would that do?

zenmyste

For me , the 8 fold path isnt a 'fact' that it will lead to enlightenment !
But we have 'faith' that it will lead us there!

Jeffrey

If we didn't have science would we not have faith in the sun rising? I am making a point, not seeking a lock tight simile.

Dude we have faith even if we try not to. Ha! It's based on rationality as well, but that doesn't mean there is no faith. Faith is the second wing to rationality rather than the anihilation of rationality. Faith steadies our hand. Believe me you could lose your faith like me. I am scared to do all kinds of things because in my mental illness I lost faith.

Invincible_summer

zenmyste said:

Firstly, even practising buddhists, monks and lay people dont exactly know or agree with what 'enlightenment' is.

It seems like Everyone has their 'own' concept or idea of what it is..

Really? :-/

Secondly, even if you 'do' believe in enlightenment , surely its only a faith/belief that it exists and also you need a little 'faith' that the buddhist path will get you there!

(Just like christianity has 'faith' there is a god! Buddhism has faith there is 'enlightenment')

What are your thoughts?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. Are you suggesting that "faith" is a bad thing?

misecmisc1

zenmyste said:

Firstly, even practising buddhists, monks and lay people dont exactly know or agree with what 'enlightenment' is.

It seems like Everyone has their 'own' concept or idea of what it is..

Secondly, even if you 'do' believe in enlightenment , surely its only a faith/belief that it exists and also you need a little 'faith' that the buddhist path will get you there!

(Just like christianity has 'faith' there is a god! Buddhism has faith there is 'enlightenment')

What are your thoughts?


(Ps , im only asking out of interest - im not slating either buddhism 'or' christianity)

@zenmyste: At first, there is a view that there is something(obtained from observation or reading or listening to somebody or something). Then, we try to analyze it and if it makes some sense to us, so we start thinking it is correct - which then makes it into a faith in us - but still this faith is not grounded on direct experience, but it is needed, as after this a desire may crop up to practically try out it. Then we try to practically do it, then we see the results of our action. Then if the results are according to the faith, it solidifies the validity of faith and consequently the faith in us and ensures that we are on the correct path - but if the results are contrary to the faith, we should disregard that faith and try to correct our faith , but if still we continue to believe in our faith(even though it is contrary to results), that is blind faith which will not lead us to the correct path. Again do more actions and see their results and keep on repeating this process until the end of the path is reached.

so having faith is not wrong, but just having blind faith(without checking it in practice) is not correct.

lobster

so having faith is not wrong, but just having blind faith(without checking it in practice) is not correct

We have faith in credible people and our capacity to discriminate between the blind and the awake. My knowledge, gnosis and experience knows that enlightenment exists. In practice, study and experience we find and verify. The 'ignorant' have to ask if there is such a thing as evolution or moon landings. I place my 'faith' in reality and am heading towards what requires no 'faith'. :wave:

Nevermind

Blind faith is wrong? It's wrong to trust according to Buddhism? I don't remember that being in the Eightfold Path.

misecmisc1

Nevermind said:

Blind faith is wrong? It's wrong to trust according to Buddhism? I don't remember that being in the Eightfold Path.

@Nevermind: do you remember Buddha taught - do not believe what others say, do not believe what Buddha himself said, but take the teachings and put them in practice and see if you find them agreeable based on your experience and your common-sense. this indicates that blind faith(which is faith without putting it into practice and so not verifying its results) is not correct.

Nevermind

Blind faith does not mean faith without putting it into practice. It can simply be practice based in trust.

caz

Enlightenment is the removal of all stains of non virtue in the mind, So if you can imagine perfected concentration, Wisdom and compassion perfected in the mind and all delusions uprooted then your half way there.

The second half is believing you can do it

sukhita

Wikipedia (Google "Faith in Buddhism"):

Faith (Pāli: saddhā, Sanskrit: śraddhā) is an important constituent element of the teachings of the Buddha for all traditions of Buddhism, though the kind and nature of faith changes in the different schools. According to received Pali-Buddhist tradition, some of the first words voiced by the Buddha after resolving to teach Dharma were, "Wide opened is the door of the Deathless to all who have ears to hear; let them send forth faith [saddha] to meet it."[1]

Our journey along the path, imo, starts with varying degrees of faith in the Buddha-dhamma and also faith in ourselves that we can do it.

mettanando

Nevermind said:

Blind faith does not mean faith without putting it into practice. It can simply be practice based in trust.

Quite so. saddha/shradda does not mean simply endorsing a belief system. It means being willing to accept that a position might be true, long enough to test the hypothesis.

taiyaki

In the Vajrayana tradition faith is basically for those of the lowest capacity.

Basically the natural state is shown through via pointing out instructions by the teacher.

Until that view and experience is shown and experience one is said not to be on the Vajrayana path.

That experience becomes the base, the path, and fruit.

It also becomes the biggest fuel for the path towards awakening. Why? Because one tastes that enlightenment is real and it isn't some kind of idea or belief.

But the Vajrayana isn't for anyone. It is a tradition that isn't linear but rather it works from inside out.

David

Blind faith isn't for me.

I learned long ago not to believe anything true just because somebody said it was, no matter who that someone may be. Not because people lie but because they could simply be wrong. I didn't need Buddha to tell us that but I am glad he did because it lets me know he is at least sincere.

We don't need to have faith that the dharma is true if we can see it in others. We don't need to have faith that any one sect is the proper sect if we can see awakened folks in a few different traditions.

I don't know... Faith seems to be only useful if there is something to lose.

BhikkhuJayasara

zenmyste said:

Firstly, even practising buddhists, monks and lay people dont exactly know or agree with what 'enlightenment' is.

It seems like Everyone has their 'own' concept or idea of what it is..

Secondly, even if you 'do' believe in enlightenment , surely its only a faith/belief that it exists and also you need a little 'faith' that the buddhist path will get you there!

(Just like christianity has 'faith' there is a god! Buddhism has faith there is 'enlightenment')

What are your thoughts?


(Ps , im only asking out of interest - im not slating either buddhism 'or' christianity)

we know from the buddha's words that enlightenment is not a place, its not even a state of being it is simply the eradication of attachment, aversion, and ignorance.

when put in those terms.. I think it's pretty easy to see even with just a little practice, that you can work gradually at eradicating these things. Because of this it is fairly easy for me to not worry about " belief in enlightenment" and such things. I see the practice works, I will continue with the practice, and I see what the practice does for me in my life. What else really matters?

Jeffrey

@taiyaki, In tantra faith is not the lowest provided that word is referring to Ratna, of the 5 Buddha energies.

Invincible_summer

When I initially left Christianity, I was all anti-theistic and always criticized faith-based religion.

Then, after much contemplation (and a brief foray into Jodo Shinshu), I realized that faith is just another tool to reduce the "small self" or the ego. When you put faith in something, you are releasing your control over that aspect of your life.

"Faith" doesn't have to be in reference to anything supernatural or theistic. It's just a deep trust that whatever you're putting your faith into will carry you through. We can put faith in our teachers, our friends, even our cars or computers. That being said, it's the type of faith that requires us to relinquish control and thus our attachments and egos that is worth cultivating.

Seemingly paradoxically, we can put faith in something that is actually inside ourselves. In Shin Buddhism, faith is directed towards Amida Buddha, the Buddha of Infinite Light and Compassion. But it's not theistic, as the faith is in the fact that Amida's boundless compassion is actually inside each of us, and by giving up our egos, we can enact o this compassion.

Similarly, in Zen/Chan, we can say that there is "faith" in our True Nature/Buddha Nature. We talk like it's something external to ourselves, but after practice and a deeper understanding, we can see it *is* ourselves.

It's basic application of the Two-Truths doctrine. Conventionally, it appears that we are putting faith in something outside of ourselves. But ultimately, we are putting faith in something that we already have.


EDIT: So basically, I don't agree that there is no "faith" in Buddhism. I think some Buddhists just say there is no "faith" just because "faith" is a bit of a buzzword for those who come from what are traditionally viewed as "faith-based" religions like Christianity or Judaism. However, if you really look at what faith means, I think that it'd be a mistake to encourage having no faith in Buddhism.

Dakini

One can observe contented people who are kind to others, or who work in some kind of helping profession, or who manage to turn an ordinary job into a helping profession. If equanimity and compassion toward others aren't enlightenment, I don't know what is.

blu3ree

to beleive the noble truths and the noble eightfold path brings one no where. but when one practises them its a completely different experience. personally i think to much thought can be put into the words enlightened and awakened.

FullCircle

zenmyste said:

Firstly, even practising buddhists, monks and lay people dont exactly know or agree with what 'enlightenment' is. "

Thats pretty funny how you magically know what everyone knows;) For someone with all the answers you have alot of questions:)

As far as enlightenment, I tripped upon this path -and the teachings in working with my mind just felt right and made sense- I didn't worry about enlightenment- but I did want to be free.
Wouldn't you zenmyste like to be free of the incessant questions in your mind?

footiam

zenmyste said:

Firstly, even practising buddhists, monks and lay people dont exactly know or agree with what 'enlightenment' is.

It seems like Everyone has their 'own' concept or idea of what it is..

Secondly, even if you 'do' believe in enlightenment , surely its only a faith/belief that it exists and also you need a little 'faith' that the buddhist path will get you there!

(Just like christianity has 'faith' there is a god! Buddhism has faith there is 'enlightenment')

What are your thoughts?


(Ps , im only asking out of interest - im not slating either buddhism 'or' christianity)

I think that would depend on what you think enlightenment is. If enlightenment is something like God whose existence most certainly you could not prove, then you ought to have faith if you want to believe in him. If you interpret enlightenment as some kind of concept, most probably you could analyse it with your grey matter. Then of course, you could make a hypothesis as in Science about enlightenment, and carry out an experiment to prove it. Your instrument is you and the procedure, meditation. You may end up like Edison and fail a thousand times but would you persist like Edison or would just give up and choose the easier way out. Just believe in someone so that you could go to Heaven without having to beat your brow?