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Using Dhamma as an escape

BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
edited February 2013 in Buddhism Today
an interesting conundrum as got me thinking lately. The last few months have been a rough time for me mentally and physically and also at work, a lot of late nights and case emergencies ( I do child protective services in addition to my own photography business).

during these times of high stress and tiredness the mind likes to escape( or when you need to do something you're not looking forward to doing you also try to escape, distract and procrastinate). In the past that escape was to video games mostly and movies etc, the normal types of distractions us modern human types use.

Lately I've been observing my mind wanting to be distracted(mostly outside of work.. my focus has been pretty tight at work, as usually what happens), wanting to procrastinate to not do things I should be doing.. however my form of escape has been dhamma(videos, reading, doing my dhamma blog etc). For instance I have an interview for a position tomorrow and I want to do some more preparation tonight, but here I find myself watching dhamma talks from Ajahn Brahm and posting on new buddhist LOL!. I'm feeling "at peace" listening to dhamma.

So while listening to Dhamma is almost always beneficial( its the greatest gift!), you can also use it in a negative way too I think, a hard thing to say about listening to dhamma but it appears to be this way in my experience. Some of you know that I'm on the path of moving towards becoming a monastic, and although following my plan i still have a year and a half left before I go to the monastery, for the first time I am "daydreaming" and wishing I was up in the woods meditating. These are things to be mindful of in our practice.

What is everyone else's experience with this?
Invincible_summershadowleaverMigyur

Comments

  • howhow Veteran Veteran


    Completely agree. I don't think I've experienced anything that's inherently free of our ability to attach to and correspondingly suffer from.
    The path you are choosing is not an easier one, just the one that you are choosing.
    Attaching to that which mimics our spiritual aspirations is usually referred to as compounded delusion and is the bane of all spiritual seekers. (lay or monastic).
    Regardless of the scenery, it always seems to come down to how present and open we can be in this moment.
    Recognizing a possible spiritual attachment doesn't eliminate it but does strip away it's concealing camouflage.
    BhikkhuJayasaraInvincible_summerlobster
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited February 2013
    how said:



    Completely agree. I don't think I've experienced anything that's inherently free of our ability to attach to and correspondingly suffer from.
    The path you are choosing is not an easier one, just the one that you are choosing.
    Attaching to that which mimics our spiritual aspirations is usually referred to as compounded delusion and is the bane of all spiritual seekers. (lay or monastic).
    Regardless of the scenery, it always seems to come down to how present and open we can be in this moment.
    Recognizing a possible spiritual attachment doesn't eliminate it but does strip away it's concealing camouflage.

    Sadu Sadu Sadu :) , well said friend. With regards to the renouncing I had never "daydreamed" or wished to be there before it was time until just recently, and I've been planning this for near two years.. thats how I know when it is unskillful desire as opposed to my normal skillful desire to renounce.

    btw I was kind to my mind and listened to dhamma for a bit now I'm rocking this interview prep and coming up with how I'm going to sell myself ;). I'm going for a position as a foster/adoptive home recruiter.
    Bunks
  • BeejBeej Human Being Veteran
    edited February 2013
    maybe its not an escape at all. maybe you are simply going to what you need most, at that time? I find myself on newbuddhist, at the library reading Tibetan Book of the Dead or scoping used book stores for Zen journals at times when i should be..... ya know what? i think thats exactly what i should be doing. not some other fruitless venture that usually only serves to gratify my silly ego.

    maybe the problem isnt your desire for dhamma. maybe the problem is that cumbersome and arbitrary plan you have set out before yourself. one more year? if you are ready now go now. if you are not ready, then by all means, continue to procrastinate. is there not something to be learned from either way? :)
    BhikkhuJayasara
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    Jayantha said:

    how said:



    I'm rocking this interview prep and coming up with how I'm going to sell myself ;). I'm going for a position as a foster/adoptive home recruiter.
    I would think that your undertanding of finding satisfaction in the helping of others would stand you in good stead. Perhaps just demonstrationing such an understanding will be a truth that sells itself.
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran

    maybe its not an escape at all. maybe you are simply going to what you need most, at that time? I find myself on newbuddhist, at the library reading Tibetan Book of the Dead or scoping used book stores for Zen journals at times when i should be..... ya know what? i think thats exactly what i should be doing. not some other fruitless venture that usually only serves to gratify my silly ego.

    maybe the problem isnt your desire for dhamma. maybe the problem is that cumbersome and arbitrary plan you have set out before yourself. one more year? if you are ready now go now. if you are not ready, then by all means, continue to procrastinate. is there not something to be learned from either way? :)

    the year and a half part of the plan because my last debt in this life is a car payment(ends March 2014). and I refuse to "abandon" my car with payments left. since I'm going to have to be a lay resident for a year( 1 year resident, 1 year novice monk, then full ordination) or so I'll still need my car for at least that year up there. i'm also saving a good nest egg for that period as well because all expenses as a resident are paid by me except food and lodging. if I do become a full monastic I will most likely be donating my car and my remaining money to Bhavana Society.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    @Jayantha -- Subtle or gross, I think the difficulty you describe is a potential tripwire everyone faces at whatever 'stage' of spiritual endeavor they find themselves. You are lucky to recognize the problem at all.

    Spiritual endeavor as protection or camouflage is always possible. With good luck, life has a way of correcting this sort of posturing ... but good luck is sometimes in short supply, ego-tripping is in large supply and the problem becomes fixed and convenient ... look Ma, I'm a Buddhist! look Ma, I'm a monk!

    There is nothing unusual about any of this from where I sit. It's just a question of what anyone is willing to do to address it. You seem to be well on your way just by noticing. Keep up the good work.
    lobster
  • BeejBeej Human Being Veteran
    edited February 2013
    okay, the plan is not arbitrary. :) but it is cumbersome. no doubt that your sturdy foundation and practice will see you through the year of indentured servitude to the honda corp. lololololol. good luck to you and i am reminded of something that somebody once said about seeking refuge in yourself and in the dhamma. Sounds like you are heeding those wise words, yes? wherever you go... there it is. :)
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited February 2013

    okay, the plan is not arbitrary. :) but it is cumbersome. no doubt that your sturdy foundation and practice will see you through the year of indentured servitude to the honda corp. lololololol. good luck to you and i am reminded of something that somebody once said about seeking refuge in yourself and in the dhamma. Sounds like you are heeding those wise words, yes? wherever you go... there it is. :)

    Lol.. I don't see it as slavery.. I see it as a business contract.. I'm paying for an item and I thank toyota for making a great car that will allow me many years of safe driving :)

    and yes I love it.. wherever you go.. there it is :)

    @genkaku thank you for the kind words. I agree with your assessment. The " look ma i'm a monk" thing cracked me up.. there are maybe one or two people in my family and friends who truly support and come close to understanding my desire to renounce. I don't think I'll never say " hey ma look I'm a monK!" lol.

    and also I'm feeling this thread turn into a little too much about this being called Jayantha. No one else has issues with using dhamma unskillfully.. I know some of you are ajahm brahm addicts out there ;).
    Beej
  • I think if you enjoy learning the dharma go for it. If you are using it then it will get not fun. And then the work not to use it begins. But I am not sure if you should be prophilactic; if you are enjoying the dharma that is probably a lot better addiction than 99% of all addictions.

    Anyhow the worm will turn and eventually you will know/resolve.
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    Most of this discussion is way over my head; either that or I just missed the boat the premises sailed off from. I think it's a wonderful thing to be able to remove oneself in thought from ones immediate circumstances and duties. If we were unable to do so we'd all be automatons incapable of making moral or humane decisions in the face of orders to the contrary from "our superiors." (I'm thinking of Nazi Germany and such-like.) That's not to mention overlooking rude behavior directed at us or singing a song or whistling when our spirits are down. ¶ I wouldn't think I had a problem tuning in anything meaningful anywhere, unless it broke my concentration to the extent that it actually might cause harm. As for procrastination, what does that have to do with enjoying the present day to its fullest, if not everything? You know you'll get the really important things done tomorrow! Right?

    One word for this phenomenon is enthusiasm. You get it where you get it and it makes life more adventurous. In a way, life is an escape from not being, and a life bound every second to a concept of duty (say productivity or some imagined purity of purpose) is not a life of real freedom. If you're not free, you're in some chains of sorts and can't really breathe till those chains are burst. That's almost all of life. You can't really BE who you ARE all chained down; that's not YOU, that's you in chains.

    Enthusiasm for something beyond where I plant my feet is a healthy thing, I think.

    Or perhaps a better word, still in the spirit of enthusiasm, is extreme interestedness. The hippies used to say that they were "really into" something; well, that what "interested" means: inter-esse (Latin): "mingled in," "to be into." What's wrong with that?

    We all need to escape this world whenever we can in non-mindless ways.

    Sorry for the rambling.

  • Using Dhamma as an escape

    "There is, O monks, an unborn, an unbecome, an unmade, an unconditioned; if, O monks, there were not here this unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, there would not here be an escape from the born, the become, the made, the conditioned. But because there is an unborn,...therefore there is an escape from the born...."

    UDANA viii, 3

    This utterance says it all. Everyone is trying to escape - money, power, sex, alcohol, drugs, charities and service to community etc.

    For one who is still wandering on in Saṃsāra, kamma is the reliable refuge. For one who is seeking to be released from Saṃsāra, Satipaṭṭhāna Vipassanā Dhamma is the one and only refuge. And for the Noble Ones who have seen the perils of Saṃsāra, Nibbāna is the only true, safe, and secure refuge.

    Which is your refuge?
    NirvanaBhikkhuJayasara
  • Straight_ManStraight_Man Gentle Man Veteran
    I take refuge in what I believe to be truth. For now.
  • jlljll Veteran
    we shd be mindful of our thoughts.
    but, daydreaming about being a monk beats
    daydreaming about sex or becoming rich anytime.
    Jayantha said:

    an interesting conundrum as got me thinking lately. The last few months have been a rough time for me mentally and physically and also at work, a lot of late nights and case emergencies ( I do child protective services in addition to my own photography business).

    during these times of high stress and tiredness the mind likes to escape( or when you need to do something you're not looking forward to doing you also try to escape, distract and procrastinate). In the past that escape was to video games mostly and movies etc, the normal types of distractions us modern human types use.

    Lately I've been observing my mind wanting to be distracted(mostly outside of work.. my focus has been pretty tight at work, as usually what happens), wanting to procrastinate to not do things I should be doing.. however my form of escape has been dhamma(videos, reading, doing my dhamma blog etc). For instance I have an interview for a position tomorrow and I want to do some more preparation tonight, but here I find myself watching dhamma talks from Ajahn Brahm and posting on new buddhist LOL!. I'm feeling "at peace" listening to dhamma.

    So while listening to Dhamma is almost always beneficial( its the greatest gift!), you can also use it in a negative way too I think, a hard thing to say about listening to dhamma but it appears to be this way in my experience. Some of you know that I'm on the path of moving towards becoming a monastic, and although following my plan i still have a year and a half left before I go to the monastery, for the first time I am "daydreaming" and wishing I was up in the woods meditating. These are things to be mindful of in our practice.

    What is everyone else's experience with this?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    jll said:

    we shd be mindful of our thoughts.
    but, daydreaming about being a monk beats
    daydreaming about sex or becoming rich anytime.

    Speak for yourself, sunshine.....

    :p
    NirvanaMaryAnneTosh
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited February 2013
    jll said:

    we shd be mindful of our thoughts.
    but, daydreaming about being a monk beats
    daydreaming about sex or becoming rich anytime.

    Jayantha said:

    an interesting conundrum as got me thinking lately. The last few months have been a rough time for me mentally and physically and also at work, a lot of late nights and case emergencies ( I do child protective services in addition to my own photography business).

    during these times of high stress and tiredness the mind likes to escape( or when you need to do something you're not looking forward to doing you also try to escape, distract and procrastinate). In the past that escape was to video games mostly and movies etc, the normal types of distractions us modern human types use.

    Lately I've been observing my mind wanting to be distracted(mostly outside of work.. my focus has been pretty tight at work, as usually what happens), wanting to procrastinate to not do things I should be doing.. however my form of escape has been dhamma(videos, reading, doing my dhamma blog etc). For instance I have an interview for a position tomorrow and I want to do some more preparation tonight, but here I find myself watching dhamma talks from Ajahn Brahm and posting on new buddhist LOL!. I'm feeling "at peace" listening to dhamma.

    So while listening to Dhamma is almost always beneficial( its the greatest gift!), you can also use it in a negative way too I think, a hard thing to say about listening to dhamma but it appears to be this way in my experience. Some of you know that I'm on the path of moving towards becoming a monastic, and although following my plan i still have a year and a half left before I go to the monastery, for the first time I am "daydreaming" and wishing I was up in the woods meditating. These are things to be mindful of in our practice.

    What is everyone else's experience with this?

    I definitely agree.. but that still takes us from the present moment. it's an example of using something good with unskillful intentions.

    and @federica for some reason I never really daydreamed about being rich.. when I was young I wanted to be a fighter pilot or a jet setting archaeologist..doing a job more unique, exciting, and different was always more important.... which is not so ironic that I now strive to become a monk, can't get MUCH more different then that in the west. One of the many signs in my life that makes me feel like I was born and bred for this calling, but I won't know for sure until I try.

    oh and also my ego building name too kind of seems like a sign for a being like myself still mired in greed, hatred, and delusion - Jayantha means "victorious one". I received it from Bhante G and Bhante S at Bhavana society when I took the 8 lifetime precepts. It's my name there now, what they call me, so I've taken to using it in buddhist circles in general.
  • jlljll Veteran
    even as a monk, I believe that you
    need some time to daydream.
    a very famous monk said that
    sometimes his mind is just not able
    to meditate or mindful.
    he found that an effective remedy
    was to just allow the mind to wander.
    after a couple of hours, the mind seems
    willing to meditate again.
    Nirvana
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    jll said:

    even as a monk, I believe that you
    need some time to daydream.
    a very famous monk said that
    sometimes his mind is just not able
    to meditate or mindful.
    he found that an effective remedy
    was to just allow the mind to wander.
    after a couple of hours, the mind seems
    willing to meditate again.

    yes, this is part of what Ajahn Brahm means when he says " be kind to your mind", and is basically what I did last night. well said.
  • I've come to the conclusion that when the dualistic mind is strong then the only thing to really cling to is the dharma. The teachings of the Buddha are worth our attachment because if we actually listen to them then it brings peace and unbinding.

    But when the mind is free of dualistic clinging then the dharma can be poisonous depending on if we can see our shadow. But generally if the dharma is applied FOR life rather than an escape FROM life then the dharma will have no divisions.

    But there is a time and place for everything. Just like the winter calls for introspection and less activity. Sometimes life requires of us to just close down from everything and in a way that is part of that path.
    Invincible_summer
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited February 2013
    What do Buddhists have in common with Houdini?

    They're usually thought of as escape artists.
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    federica said:

    jll said:

    we shd be mindful of our thoughts.
    but, daydreaming about being a monk beats
    daydreaming about sex or becoming rich anytime.

    Speak for yourself, sunshine.....

    :p
    One evening after a couple of periods of formal meditation, a group of us sat in a diner near the Zen center and sipped coffee and gabbed. The question came up, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" The median age of those around the table was 35-40, I'd guess. And as everyone took a shot at an answer, most were laced with Buddhist hand-holds like "compassion" or "wisdom" or "understanding." But finally, it came to a grounded woman in her forties who looked thoughtful for a moment and then announced, "When I grow up, I want to be a rich ... sexy ... saint!"

    A little honesty is a terrific relief.
    Invincible_summer
  • Dude just thought id say u have some awesome jobs lol firstly one in which you can help others (child services) and photography is awesome. I work in student support helping college students with special needs with their work. I am currently working 3 of the five days a week in photography lessons and am loving it lol plus i am workinh with awesome students. Sorry if it is a bit of a random comment but sometimes that's how my brain works lol

    Much Love
  • I can relate- it us easy to get lost in Buddha-themed fantasies. That is why I think it is important to apply Practice in the "real world". But that's difficult- that is why I've spent an hour on this forum tonight ;)

    Bur worry not- suffering is just around the corner to help us keep it real.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Dharma, not drama and dumber
    Sangha, not sangria and sanguine
    Buddha, not brother and bother

    Take the best from the 3 jewels
    And do the best in and for the world
    . . . What you mean you knew that? There is no escape from awakening . . . :clap:
    NirvanaZendoLord84CoryMigyur
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    Wisdom23 said:

    Dude just thought id say u have some awesome jobs lol firstly one in which you can help others (child services) and photography is awesome. I work in student support helping college students with special needs with their work. I am currently working 3 of the five days a week in photography lessons and am loving it lol plus i am workinh with awesome students. Sorry if it is a bit of a random comment but sometimes that's how my brain works lol

    Much Love

    photography is a heck of a business but a fun activity. I never took any classes because my interest in photography didn't really start until the end of my college days and into adulthood. Get shooting practice in as much as you can, nothing beats experience.

    If I don't end up becoming a monk, I'd like to do my photography business full time. You know what they say, do what you love and you won't feel you've worked a day in your life.
    lobster said:

    Dharma, not drama and dumber
    Sangha, not sangria and sanguine
    Buddha, not brother and bother

    Take the best from the 3 jewels
    And do the best in and for the world
    . . . What you mean you knew that? There is no escape from awakening . . . :clap:

    at Bhavana society there is a little poster that says " more dhamma, less Drama" . I like that picture. I try to live by this motto in life.
  • I have never thought of The Dhamma as being an escape.....I have always thought of it as being an enlightening tool and a path and way to live. If I live the way that I am directed, asked and taught to, joy will come. Perhaps if we are too involved with or attached to earthly things, either by necissity, choice or ignorance, we may start to look at the Dhamma as an escape. It is not.......
  • ZendoLord84ZendoLord84 Veteran
    edited February 2013
    Yesterday, my dog was sick.
    I was cleaning her vomit, and I had to keep my own vomit in
    (Weak stomach when it comes to smells and....vomit)
    It hit me i couldn't get more 'buddhist' then this.
    Cleaning up nasty stuff after others, while loving them unconditionally.
    For I love my dog, and i clean her shite and barf and give her a big hug afterwards :)
  • CoryCory Tennessee Veteran
    I always find myself losing the true me, so I always keep a book with me in my backpack so in times that I am losing myself I can use dhamma as a tool for reminding myself who I am.

    When I find myself, everything flows well, And I can do all of my school work without letting it bother me or make me feel like it's getting in the way of my life.

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