How can one attain enlightenment if we all disagree on what enlightenment is?

zenmyste

Every buddhist (even if they are part of the same sangha) all seem to have a different 'idea' of what Enlightenment is!

Some will state that they dont 'know' what it is because they are not enlightened and it will only take 'being enlightened to 'know' what enlightenment is...

But if we dont know what it is then how would we know we are if we ever became enlightened...

You may say; "you would just know" , but i would have to disagree because, I could believe i am enlightened, but you wouldnt 'believe' me simply because of 'your own belief on what enlightenment is...' (Thats when we would be disagreeing on what enlightenment is)

Here are people's mixed views on what enlightement is; (taken from 'this' forum past and present)

enlightenment is to rest in the nature state of being,

Enlightenment is the cessation of suffering

Enlightenment is to live in the now


Enlightenment doesnt exist

Enlightenment is to not seek and just be ordinary


Enlightenment is to be awake and to be awake means to see clearly and to see clearly means to just go about your day


Enlightenment is nothing special, it is just this moment, and thats it

Enlightenment means to see ones nature

Enlightenment is to understand that there is no enlightenment

Enlightenment is when you are at complete peace of mind and only the 8 fold path is the way

Enlightenment is something mystical and no one can talk of it

Enlightenment is beyond words, if you think you are enlightenment then you are not!

Enlightenment is something that you will only achieve after many life times of suffering! Peace of mind only comes after you have suffered the worst case of suffering

Enlightenment is just 'peace of mind'

Enlightenment is to know all the answers of the universe! You will know the meaning of life.


Enlightenment is to know GOD

Enlightenment comes after death
You cannot achieve it on earth

Plus many more....

So what is it???? We all seem to have different ideas..

Some think its mystical, some think its ordinary... Some dont believe its real, some believe we already have it...

What are your thoughts?

vinlyn

I won't answer the second half of your question. In terms of what would convince me? If the Supreme Sangha of Thailand (for example) proclaimed some specific person was enlightened, I would tend to trust that body of Buddhist scholars.

Nevermind

That's the only possible answer really, word of mouth. Line of sight is too revealing.

federica

has it occurred to you we may all be right, and none of the above are contradictions?
That it could be 'all of the above'?

Before enlightenment, fetch water, chop wood.
After enlightenment, fetch water, chop wood.

Don't sweat it.
Just do what you need to do.
And only you know what that is.

JohnG

Enlightenment is an extremely personal experience, and cannot be identified with words. It relies on the individual, and only that individual. Remember, when you find the Buddha, kill the Buddha.

rivercane

I agree with @federica. Enlightenment would be beyond contradictions, beyond duality, even if it appears to us to be contradictory. Just as a Buddha can perceive ultimate reality and conventional reality at the same time.

I think the enlightened person would also be unable to express the nature of enlightenment due to the limitations of language. "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao" and all, thus we would be unable to agree or fully define it.

person

A poem or a book about love is different than the feeling of being in love. Enlightenment is supposed to be the same way.

You listed a bunch of ideas and words about enlightenment but none of them are the feeling of being enlightened.

I also agree with @federica, in that describing enlightenment is like the parable of the blind men describing an elephant where one touches his tail, one touches his trunk and another touches his body. They each would describe the elephant differently but each would be correct.

Zero

zenmyste said:

But if we dont know what it is then how would we know we are if we ever became enlightened...

If there are criteria to satisfy then it makes sense to investigate the parameters in order to navigate the spectrum of chances to a successful outcome.
Requirements and outcome are thus linked.
How would 'we' know the requirements and/or outcome? Who can speak for the collection of 'I's?

riverflow

I just happened to read this interesting passage today from the Lankavatara Sutra (translated here by Red Pine):

"The Bhagavan then told Mahamati: 'The teaching of emptiness, non-arising, non-duality, and the absence of self-existence pervades all the sutras spoken by the buddhas. Every sutra teaches these truths. But because every sutra responds to the longings of beings, they differ as to how they express these truths, which are not really in the words. Just as the sight of a mirage confuses a herd of deer, whereby the deer imagine the appearance of water where there is no water, likewise the teachings of the sutras are meant to gladden people's hearts. But buddha knowledge is not to be found in the words. Therefore, trust the meaning and don't cling to the words.'" (Chapter 2, section XXVII)

Beej

i dont see the conflict in your list. all of those things seem to echo a similar sentiment and add to each other rather than detract. but no matter how many words you organize into sentences, paragraphs, stories, books, anthologies, etc.... none of them will likely do justice to the actual experience of enlightenment... because words wont matter once you are there. words are fickle. being is not. :om:

vinlyn

I agree with TheBeejAbides to some extent.

I don't see enlightenment as "x". More like x and y and q and a...

alexwilliam

Great video talking about the "not knowing" keeping a beginners mind.

I think letting go of our thoughts,concepts,ideas,attachments truly points towards the wordless state of enlightenment,god,oneness.
As they say the moment is Now and exploring intellectual questioning and concepts not matter how beautiful, poetic, well reasoned will not bring you closer to the one moment with your own mind and the universe.

Every time this happens to me the best answer is too go to your seat/cushion and sit with this moment.

riverflow

^^^ I love this guy!

lamaramadingdong

It's all around us, just need to wake up.

Theswingisyellow

Enlightenment-what a concept!

lobster

You may say; "you would just know" , but i would have to disagree because, I could believe i am enlightened, but you wouldnt 'believe' me simply because of 'your own belief on what enlightenment is...' (Thats when we would be disagreeing on what enlightenment is)

You just know
no butts
no beliefs
no need to be believed, verified, vindicated, earth touch witnessing (which the Buddha did).
You are certain. Without doubt. Without questions.
There is one question though - 'who cares?'

As @federica and others have said, the different expressions point to the same 'wisdom moon'.

Here is an enlightened take away . . .
A young monk brought two potted plants into the monastery’s garden while the Zen master looked on. “Drop it,” instructed the master. The young monk gently let down one pot. “Drop it,” again ordered the master. The monk let go the second pot. “DROP IT!” roared the master. The young monk stammered, “But… I have nothing more to drop.” “Then take it away,” said the old master, smiling.

Japanese Zen master Sesso warned, “There is little to choose between a man lying in the ditch heavily drunk on rice liquor, and a man heavily drunk on his own ‘enlightenment’!”
. . . careful now . . .

and so on . . .
http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/Zen_Humor.html

misecmisc1

if one can attain enlightenment, how will that enlightenment be different from samsara?

zenmyste

misecmisc1 said:

if one can attain enlightenment, how will that enlightenment be different from samsara?

Oooooo, I LOVE THIS!!!!

Citta

misecmisc1 said:

if one can attain enlightenment, how will that enlightenment be different from samsara?

Thus have I heard.
The true nature of that ' one' will be seen clearly.
It is not about what is experienced. It is about the nature of the experiencer.

shadowleaver

>How can one attain enlightenment if we all disagree on what enlightenment is?

Just like this

Jeffrey

Endless qualities of mind. No airtight theory.

Citta

Obviously this kind of debate is in part because this is a generalised forum...and has many strengths as a result. On a forum where there is a preponderance of posts about a single school..Dhamma Wheel for example, there is a wider consensus about the meaning of terms.
Even there though things are not without variation in interpretation.

seeker242

So what is it???? We all seem to have different ideas..

Does it really matter? You don't need to know exactly what it is in order to get it. If that was required, it would not be possible to get it to begin with. Siddhartha did not know what it was before he got it. Nobody really does! How do you get it? You get it by practicing what the Buddha said to practice!

not a place, not an idea, not a fantasy deception, not a conceit,
not a conception, not a cause, not an effect, not finite, not definable,
not formed, not begun, not ending, not changing, not temporal, but lasting…
unborn, unbecome, unmade, uncreated, uncaused, unconditioned,
and unconstructed, yet ultimately real!

You don't need to know what it really is in order to get it. You just need to know where to go to get it. The Buddha got it and then drew a map on how to get there, we just need to follow the map.

Saying that you need to know what it really is beforehand is like saying "I need to know what is on the other side of the mountain before I can travel to the other side of the mountain". That doesn't make sense! All you need to know is where the pass is and then go over the pass. If all you do is "go over the pass", then ending up on the other side and seeing what is really there, is inevitable.

FullCircle

I think if it could be put into words it would've already been done;)
There's so many stories about 2 masters meeting each other... they don't need to talk... they look at each other and smile..
No words needed..
The understanding that they share is not something intellectual.
How could it have anything to do with 'agreeing' on what it is?
One thing is for sure I believe, they have no more questions;)

riverflow

@zenmyste - knowing you have a love for the Dao De Jing (as I do also), here's something interesting:

You know the Dao De Jing starts off immediately with a sort of epistemological disclaimer for the 80 more chapters that follow: "Dao (the Way) that is spoken about is not the ever-present Way."

I am aware of Dao being used in old Chan writings. But what is really interesting is I've been re-visiting a classic Chinese Mahayana text, The Awakening of Faith and more than once, the character used for "enlightenment" (or "awakening") is Dao-- yeah, THAT Dao!

I don't think that is mere coincidence. So you could say this: "Enlightenment that is spoken about is not the ever-present enlightenment."

Just some food for (non-?)thought.

SillyPutty

I think I said this in another thread a long time ago, but I liken knowing one is enlightened to having an orgasm. When it happens, you know it. If you have to question what it is, if you are, or think you might be, then you most likely aren't. Therefore, there's nothing to disagree on about what enlightenment really is. It does happen and it doesn't matter how it happens... it just does.

pegembara

I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.034.than.html

betaboy

^How is that possible? When nothing is felt, how is there pleasure (or even pain)? Without sense objects, how can one experience either pleasure or pain?

pegembara

“These trains of thought and states of mind are constantly changing, like the shapes of clouds in the wind. But we attach great importance to them. An old man watching children play knows very well that their games are of little consequence. He feels neither elated or upset at what happens in their game, while the children take it very seriously. We are exactly them.” ~H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche (from The Heart Treasure of the Enlightened Ones)

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play."
Satta Sutta

When the Buddha talks of "smashing, scattering, & demolishing form (etc.) and making it unfit for play," he is referring to the practice of analyzing form minutely into its component parts until it no longer seems a fit object for passion & delight. When all five aggregates can be treated in this way, the mind is left with no conditioned object to serve as a focal point for its passion, and so is released. Thanissaro

footiam

Don't worry so much about what enlightenment is. When it comes, it comes. Just live life right!

upekka

zenmyste said:

i would have to disagree because, I could believe i am enlightened,

if you are enlightened you would not ask questions any more

but

for sure

you would help others (if possible) to understand Dhamma and see within

Blondel

Love the OP.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that, as moderns, we don't want to know what the Buddha was enlightened about. It might prove too painful to learn the truth and just how far away from it we are.

FullCircle

"Over the years I have come to the conclusion that, as moderns, we don't want to know what the Buddha was enlightened about. It might prove too painful to learn the truth and just how far away from it we are."

Or could we be so ridiculously close that its too obvious to see?:)

Blondel

FullCircle said:

"Over the years I have come to the conclusion that, as moderns, we don't want to know what the Buddha was enlightened about. It might prove too painful to learn the truth and just how far away from it we are."

Or could we be so ridiculously close that its too obvious to see?:)

Then we are fearful with eyes wide shut.

hermitwin

how can i be happy if we all disagree
what happiness is???

zenmyste said:

Every buddhist (even if they are part of the same sangha) all seem to have a different 'idea' of what Enlightenment is!

Some will state that they dont 'know' what it is because they are not enlightened and it will only take 'being enlightened to 'know' what enlightenment is...

But if we dont know what it is then how would we know we are if we ever became enlightened...

You may say; "you would just know" , but i would have to disagree because, I could believe i am enlightened, but you wouldnt 'believe' me simply because of 'your own belief on what enlightenment is...' (Thats when we would be disagreeing on what enlightenment is)

Here are people's mixed views on what enlightement is; (taken from 'this' forum past and present)

enlightenment is to rest in the nature state of being,

Enlightenment is the cessation of suffering

Enlightenment is to live in the now


Enlightenment doesnt exist

Enlightenment is to not seek and just be ordinary


Enlightenment is to be awake and to be awake means to see clearly and to see clearly means to just go about your day


Enlightenment is nothing special, it is just this moment, and thats it

Enlightenment means to see ones nature

Enlightenment is to understand that there is no enlightenment

Enlightenment is when you are at complete peace of mind and only the 8 fold path is the way

Enlightenment is something mystical and no one can talk of it

Enlightenment is beyond words, if you think you are enlightenment then you are not!

Enlightenment is something that you will only achieve after many life times of suffering! Peace of mind only comes after you have suffered the worst case of suffering

Enlightenment is just 'peace of mind'

Enlightenment is to know all the answers of the universe! You will know the meaning of life.


Enlightenment is to know GOD

Enlightenment comes after death
You cannot achieve it on earth

Plus many more....

So what is it???? We all seem to have different ideas..

Some think its mystical, some think its ordinary... Some dont believe its real, some believe we already have it...

What are your thoughts?

caz

There are various accomplishments, The accomplishment of becoming an Arhant, Bodhisattva and fully enlightened Buddha. Just because you may not know how to define enlightenment that does not mean the definition does not exist in fact these 3 accomplishments are still being attained today.

If you want to accomplish full enlightenment very quickly you need to enter into the path of Vajrayana and practice Highest Yoga Tantra to transform the impure basis of mind into the completely pure basis of a Buddha.

lobster

If you want to accomplish full enlightenment very quickly you need to enter into the path of Vajrayana and practice Highest Yoga Tantra to transform the impure basis of mind into the completely pure basis of a Buddha.

Yep that is a plan.

You could meditate for a while, ten or twenty years might do it.
You could study.
You could walk between the reputed awakenees.
Mostly you will have to change - sorry no other way . . . you might have to change to 'no change' if grabbed by the Zennists or Dzogchens . . .

I may put my official, 'I am Enlightened, Now what?' T-Shirt on E-bay or give it away to an undeserving cause . . .
:wave:

lamaramadingdong

We don't need to agree on a definition of air to breath it.