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Why did the Buddha allow his monks to eat meat?
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The HSUS is quite anti-meat these days. So much so that they are attacked with propaganda by meat industry lobbyists in a similar manner in which the lobbyists attack animal rights organizations. Mostly because they expose the widespread animal abuses that typically take place on modern farms. One could argue that HSUS activity played a large part in what led to the introduction of all these AG-Gag laws.
However, there is a quite big difference between the idea of animal rights and animal welfare. From an animal rights viewpoint, it's mutually exclusive. The ASPCA deals primarily with pets and is definitely an animal welfare organization but definitely not an an animal rights organization. They sometimes, but only rarely, get involved with food animal issues.
People now understand that the Bible is an edited and revised collection of oral traditions where historical accuracy was far less important than the lesson being illustrated. So the question now is, can we claim our own religious writings are different and special?
If, as the story goes, the monks memorized word for word everything Buddha said and accurately handed it down for hundreds of years unchanged and then transcribed it into handwritten documents that also remained unchanged, then that is a miracle that must be taken on faith. Perhaps the Pali Canon really is a word-for-word record of the Buddha's words. Considering that by the time the sutras were compiled Buddhism had already split into many differing schools with their own claims of following what the Buddha said, I'd say the historical truth is a lot messier than the sutras would have you believe.
But that's just my own thoughts on the subject.
Even when I've fallen off the vegetarian wagon, which as I pointed out is the norm, I've refrained from beef, though hypocritically I have leather shoes and belts. Here are some thoughts, again at the risk of going off course, and taking a Hindu bent, but I think it underscores the whole slippery slope:
There is one flaw in the belief that eating beef is killing and eating Go Mata (Mother Cow) that I believe needs to be addressed. In the US at least, dairy cows are never slaughtered for human consumption to the best of my knowledge. When they are too old to produce milk, they are too old to provide meat fit for human consumption and are slaughtered for other purposes (pet food, gelatin, leather). Do we stop using dairy products or keeping carnivorous animals (dogs, cats, ferrets) as pets? Something I don't understand is that it is young castrated males, steers, that are raised and slaughtered for beef, not gomata, so why the traditional proscription (there's nothing scriptural) against eating beef?
To bring this back to the Buddhist perspective and spirit of this site, for those Buddhists who do eat meat, do they shun beef also, or does it not matter because of beliefs, culture and traditions? I've read that the Balinese, regardless of religion, eat beef. What's the Buddhist view on beef?
(Actually, that is by far, anatomically, the best way to schytt. By squatting.)
Mutual respect should be the order of the day imo. Rather than striving for a consensus that is frankly unlikely.
I think there is very little chance that anyone will come up with a form of words that all parties will agree to. Other than the aforementioned need for mutual respect.
Not only do we find new dishes on our plates in the evening, but the restaurants we occasionally visited or called for take- out have been left behind so we are searching for new foods and restaurants too. Food labeling here in the USA has been a great help to us as information on ingredients is readily available and we can , with effort, avoid soy products.
There are some restaurants where soy is literally in everything but the lettuce( yes it is in the salad dressing too.)
On the bright side, my wife is feeling better.
I would , for her health, like her to eat meat again, but do feel uneasy at the thought of my vegetarian wife coming with me to the dark side. It as if her identity has become that of "vegetarian wife . " Part of me would miss this label should she decide to eat meat.
Parenthetically, Jews can eat non kosher if the health of the person requires it. Perhaps the Buddha taught this practicality to them vis a vis his meat eating strictures which seem to me fluid and open to situational interpretation . Road kill anyone?
I watched what Master Sheng Yen had to say. I agree totally that vegetarianism is conducive for the practice of compassion. But at the same time I believe there are many ways to practice compassion and vegetarianism is one way to do so. Personally, I don't believe that only vegetarians can be compassionate. In fact I've met many Buddhists and non-Buddhists, Westerners and Asians, who are very compassionate people but who weren't vegetarians either. So I know for a fact that it's possible. Also, during Buddha's time when the three types of pure meat were universally allowed, many of his monks and layfollowers attained one of the four stages of enlightenment despite the consumption of meat.
I would also say that Master Sheng Yen acknowledges that the Buddha did not say that all instances of meat eating is the same as killing. Here is an excerpt from the video: So Master Sheng Yen acknowledges that in accordance with the Buddha's teachings as long as you didn't kill something yourself or know that it was killed for you, then you can eat it and this would not be against the Buddha's prohibition from taking life. So eating the three clean meats is not the same as killing.
The last point I want to make is that I would disagree with Master Sheng's contention that "from the perspective of Buddhism all sentient beings are equal." In the Vinaya-pitaka, killing human beings is a parajika offence entailing automatic expulsion from the Sangha. However, killing animals is a minor offence entailing confession. The Mahayana position is even more explicit and the Nirvana Sutra distinguishes between three grades of killing with animals described as "beings of the lowest class":
While I understand she's developed an allergy to soy PRODUCTS, the beans themselves (unprocessed and 'as nature intended) may still be okay....?
Actually the question should be - why do we consistently indulge in these arguments when no side ever wins and we only ever end up arguing and wasting energy by not practising? (I don't believe the Buddha ever encouraged debates that disintegrate into personal attacks and the like)
BOOM!
Of course, I may be wrong, it's been known to happen
In metta,
Raven
I think Jeffrey raises a valid point. You see all paths and faiths that suffer from men twisting words to suit their purposes. Why would Buddhism be an exception?
In metta,
Raven
Perhaps it's not what you say but the way you say it.
In metta,
Raven
Only if it is life threatening and even then it's not that straightforward. Most Reform Jews don't even keep kosher so it probably wouldn't be an issue. Orthodox Jews on the other hand........
In metta,
Raven
Evangelical Buddhism :hair: has not yet insisted we shave our heads and diets for baby Jesus/Buddha but some like such a diet . . . and insist they are the precept following, virtuous, non murdering, self righteous, singlevores and bores found in all religions . . . have you noticed? . . . are you one?
This evening we sat down to eat 'Ethel the chicken', my atheistic and non Buddhist family even allowed me to recite a mantra (long form). Thanks be to Ethel . . .
Omnivores for Buddha Reformed Temple and Kosher Boddhis for ever :rockon:
I think there is a middle ground personally. Just buying and eating a hamburger is not the same as chopping a cows head off in your backyard. I don't think it's a neutral activity either though. As the money that is willingly and intentionally paid, goes to people who actually do the killing thereby involving oneself in the whole process. The intentional purchase of the product creates a link between the producer, AKA the killer, and the purchaser. I don't think the statement "meat is killing" is meant to be taken so literally.
Personally, Buddha's advice on meat in the Canon I don't think is all that relevant when a person lives in a modern first world and shops at a modern day supermarket where they have hundreds of choices and can choose whatever they want. I always think "If the Buddha's monks shopped at a large supermarket, choosing their own food among hundreds of choices and the Buddha was fully aware that some of the food was produced in an unethical manner. What would he say about it?" I think it's highly likely that he would say "Don't purchase that kind of food". But of course he never said such things because monks did not have or spend money to begin with. I think he would say that for the same reasons why he said business in meat is wrong livelihood, even if you are not the one actually killing the animal.
Of course, not everyone lives in the modern first world where they have large supermarkets with hundreds of choices, but many people do.
:om:
Yes, I agree that the Buddha laid down the pure meat rule in the context of a monk's way of life in which they depended on almsfood. As a layperson who could choose between different products, I do think that we should try to choose an option that entails less harm. So with regards to laypeople, I do believe a vegetarian diet is the better choice but it is not something that reaches the level of the five precepts either. I see it more as an optional training rule rather than a mandatory one.
as far as my case goes, i am trying to not eat non-veg food for the last 2 years nearly and in that in the last 1 year at least i have not eaten any non-veg food including eggs, except for one incident which recently happened nearly 2 weeks back. what happened was this - in my neighbour's house in our colony, there was birthday of a nephew. so his family asked me to come. so i went there. the birthday cake was cut by my nephew and he offered cake to me. i took the cake in my hands and after few moments, when my nephew was busy serving cake to his friends, then i asked my nephew's father that if that cake had egg in it? he said that his son i.e. my nephew has brought the cake, so he will inquire with him, he went and came back after few moments and said to me that the cake did not had egg in it. so i said ok and then i ate 2 to 3 small pieces of the cake. then i saw my nephew moving around between his friends and i called him and he came. then i asked the same question that had the cake egg in it to my nephew, while i was holding the remaining cake in my hand. then my nephew said smiling that uncle, which cake does not has egg in it, anyways whether there is egg in it or not, what difference does it make, so please eat the cake. i was stumbled and i just laughed back at him. then i thought - i had already eaten 2-3 small pieces of the cake, but that was when i was not knowing that there is egg in the cake, then i thought if after knowing there is egg in the cake, i still eat it, that would be my selfish interest for the taste of the cake, so i decided not to eat the remaining cake. then i did not eat the remaining cake and instead gave that cake to my father, who eats non-veg food. just this incident came to my mind, so thought of sharing with you all.
metta to all sentient beings.
Mainly it is for two reasons..my metabolism does not respond well to a vegetarian diet..i get ill.
Secondly worrying about what to eat and 'purity' ends by giving food and diet too high a priority.
With respect, your concern over eating cake illustrates perfectly why Buddhadharma has since its birth ( and with the exception of some Chinese sanghas ) avoided being prescriptive about lunch. ...its not an aid to calmness.
That said, when I saw the HHDL he said people should be vegetarians *if and when they are able* not across the board, all the time. That qualifier is important. Not everyone can, for a variety of reasons and they shouldn't constantly have to defend those reasons just because they happen to practice Buddhism.
The arguement should be made on the grounds of compassion verses cruelty.
Even then there is plenty of room for ignorance or misunderstanding things. Particularly around hunting and fishing for subsistence. And making assumptions about people's intent or attitude about killing.
I don't take much notice of people criticizing my diet. Its been working so far. I'm open to suggestions though.
Well, eating Cheetoes for every meal would be vegetarian, but it's definitely not healthy...
I have a lot of respect for those who go to veggie or vegan route. One of my close friends is adamant about it, but still struggles to fully stay on that path, probably largely because she is partnered with a man who is very much a meat and potatoes kind of guy. I'm glad other people have an easier time with it. Almost everyone I know who has done it (some stuck with it and are fine now, some did not) struggled quite a bit in various ways. When we decided to go only with actual farm raised meat, our meat consumption dropped quite a bit because we can't afford to eat it every day, which is fine by me.
:om:
Naturally, B12 is only available in animal foods, so I'm always curious where the successful vegans get it from. I already have a tendency for iron deficiency anemia (despite eating meat) and have to take supplements for that. Anemia really sucks. It can be caused by a lack of B12, too.
As far as people getting sick, it does happen. A friend of mine went vegan for a few months and spent the entire time, sick. She did it under a dietician and had a balanced full variety diet worked out for her, and it still didn't work. She was extremely disappointed. She was told that some people just have a different enzyme setup in their bodies after a life of eating animal products and while it can be changed, it takes time to do so and some people find that they cannot manage the ill feelings during the transition. Other people have an easier time with it. I don't see how that is so far fetched, considering people who stop eating meat and then go back to it also report getting sick because their bodies then lack the proper enzyme to digest the meat. Why can't it work the other way?
Is false that B12 is naturaly only available in animals food. B12 is produced by bacteria and that also is found in plants or in water from rivers and lakes. But the modern sanitization of vegetables and water (by using chlorine by example) wash away all bacteria (almost) and B12. Animal food sanitization is not so strict, so B12 is keep.
So if B12 is found in animal food is because they first get it from plants and water with bacteria.
Also meat not necessarily giving a person enough B12. In fact, when you get up into your 50's, your doctor may advise you to supplement vitamin B12 (made from bacteria) because of changes in our body that make it more difficult to digest the vitamin out of animal products.
So to all people in some point in their life would be recommended that get B12 suplements, vegan or not.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm
How do factory farm raised animals still have B12 then? They get their water from a hose much of the time, and are fed grains. They don't eat natural foods (plants) nor do they drink natural water.
I'm not being argumentative, I always find nutrition stuff fascinating, so that's why I ask I realize of course they can take a supplement I was just wondering if it was readily available in an actually usable source in anything other than animal products. The liver stores vitamin B, but it's more of an average of up to 3 years worth, depending on the health of the person, how much they had to start, and their age. If someone is vegan/veggie for decades obviously their previous store will not be enough to sustain them.
With that I'm not saying that not wash your vegetables or eat dirty plants.
If you own a little garden and harvest your own vegetable is posible that is will have some B12 in it.
Why animals from factory farm get and have B12? Because they are unclean.
What they eat is not so clean, it have contamination like dirt and feces from themself or other animals.
Ruminant like cows also have a different stomach that produce much B12 that carnivore animals.
Later the meat from that animal also in not so clean, also have feces and other contaminations in some levels. Not enough to make us sick (generally) but enough to give us B12.
They are invaded with antibiotics for a reason.
Like I said human also produce B12 in their intestines but not enough what for we need.
The best source of B12 for vegans are fortified food (like breakfast cereals) and supplements.
But the good thing is that we need very few B12 to be healthy. The only vegans that have more risk to suffer deficiency in B12 are long-term vegans who avoid common fortified foods (such as raw food vegans or macrobiotic vegans) and breastfed infants of vegan mothers whose own intake of B12 is low.
Anyways like I said before. Vegan or not, supplements is recommended when you are getting old.
Actually, as a kid I used to eat dirt a lot. I was an odd kid, LOL.
But we do garden, all organically and plenty of our lettuce, carrots, potatoes and other things still have dirt on them.
On a related note, I've always believed that a lot of our problems in recent years, especially immune system problems, is due to our excess cleanliness. More and more, it seems they are finding that is true. The more junk you are exposed to, the stronger your immune system. Everyone I know who is terrified of germs and carries hand sanitizer, is always sick.
Anyhow, now I'm way off topic so I'll be done. Thanks again!!
I tried on three occasions to be vegetarian.
I took advice from experienced vegetarians.
I tried a number of vegetarian diets, including an aryuvedic diet, a macrobiotic diet, a vegetarian diet based around mediterreanean cusine, a diet replacing meat with soy protein, a diet replacing meat with Quorn, a pulse based diet...and each time my health suffered. I took advice from the hospital dietician whose wife is a vegetarian, he assured me that it was a transitional phase...it wasn't.
Feel free to ascribe any kind of of untruthfulness or evasion to this account that appeals to your sense of righteousness.