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What is YOUR attitude towards the military?

lotusbluelotusblue New
edited March 2014 in Buddhism Today
I'm not necessarily looking for a Buddhist attitude, just your own. It's something I've seen a lot of controversy with and I'm curious as to what people's induvidual thoughts are. We live in a society now where the military is used with humanitarian aid and disaster relief just as much as in conflicts and drug busting and the like, however like everthing else in the world it has it's own flaws and corruptions. What do you guys think?
ZenBadger
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Comments

  • I feel all military should be offered free access to all dharma centre courses as a public service and to shake up the wooly minded hippy types (that would be me). The greatest book on future warfare is not by Sun Tzu but Lieutenant Colonel Jim Channon
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Earth_Battalion

    image
    DharmaMcBumanatamanKundo
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    edited March 2014
    lotusblue said:


    I'm not necessarily looking for a Buddhist attitude, just your own. It's something I've seen a lot of controversy with and I'm curious as to what people's induvidual thoughts are. We live in a society now where the military is used with humanitarian aid and disaster relief just as much as in conflicts and drug busting and the like, however like everthing else in the world it has it's own flaws and corruptions. What do you guys think?

    Inviting judgement? :)
    It concerns me that a military force is considered reasonable, necessary or acceptable.
  • DaftChrisDaftChris Spiritually conflicted. Not of this world. Veteran
    I'm mixed about the military and many of its actions.

    However, I 100% support soldiers and realize that, like us, they are only human. You may not like what they do or why they do it, but they are still people who need an understanding ear; and a shoulder to cry on if need be. It's one of the reasons I'm considering Chaplaincy.
    ToshvinlynKundo
  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    It's one of the reasons I'm considering Chaplaincy.
    @DaftChris -- To the extent that you are serious about Chaplaincy, you might want to consider Zen monk Brian Victoria's 2007 essay, "Holy War: Toward a Holistic Understanding." The piece examines the ways in which religion (they're the guys who say "thou shalt not kill") encourage the prosecution of wars and attitudes that do, in fact, kill people.
  • robotrobot Veteran
    Jayantha said:

    my attitude toward the military is a Libertarian one, that it should be small and for defense of the homeland only, not for empire or disaster relief/aid. We should not be the worlds police, nor the worlds hospital.

    my attitude towards the soldiers is one of up most respect and appreciation, always has been, always will be. In my estimation the soldier is one of the most screwed of our citizens, sent to fight wars they shouldn't be, then screwed over afterwards by a government that promised basic support and doesn't follow through. Some of the most wise, understanding, tolerant and accepting people I've ever known have been soldiers.

    People have known for several generations now what to expect from the government about how they will be deployed and the support they will get upon returning home, and still they sign up.
    The military must have something going for it to entice millions of people make the choice to join.
  • I'm naturally very much in favor of the military in defense of a free and republican form of government. The Anglosphere has been exceptionally fortunate to have militaries that are apolitical. In your run of the mill dictatorship, armies are kingmakers and launch coups when it suits them.

    It was only through valor and the tremendous sacrifice of lives of the armed forces that the democracies defeated the twin geocidal regimes of Germany and Japan last century.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I can't pretend to know the motivations of every person who signs up, but it is seen as a last resort option to afford college by many, many of the young people I know who sign up. Their families cannot afford to take on tens of thousands of dollars of student loans, and even sometimes against their moral objections to war, they join the military to get help getting through college.

    As for how I feel about it. I have no problem with most individual soldiers. I find them, overall, to be good people with noble intentions and desires to protect others and protect our freedoms.

    I have a problem with the war machine the US runs and our belief that everyone around the world is best off how we determine them to be best off, and by golly we are going to make them see that, somehow. I think we stick our nose in places we have no business in while ignoring other atrocities because getting involved doesn't help us somehow.

    I think there are far better ways (and organizations) able to provide global disaster relief and that they would be able to purchase the equipment they need that the military provides if we took a small portion of the military budget and gave it to disaster relief organizations.

    I also have a problem with the amount of our tax dollars that go to pay for the military while we let people suffer otherwise. The military as a whole wastes and abuses more money than anyone.

    Obviously, this is a very complex subject and this is a very simplistic view.
    person
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    @lotusblue
    The military is simply societies equivalent to each of our own efforts at protecting the self. I find it hypocritical to hear folks rallying against the military while they remain so unwilling to address their own personal versions of it.
    And yet here we are, trying to do what is nearly impossible to do..
    That being said, I think that an mandatory enlistment for all citizens between the age of 16 to 21into a military who's main purpose beyond defense would for a rapid deployment of humanitarian aid, would go a long distance towards dealing with both societies and the individual obsession with self protection while making this world a less adversarial place to live.
    Invincible_summerThe_Dharma_Farmer
  • how said:

    @lotusblue
    The military is simply societies equivalent to each of our own efforts at protecting the self. I find it hypocritical to hear folks rallying against the military while they remain so unwilling to address their own personal versions of it.
    And yet here we are, trying to do what is nearly impossible to do..
    That being said, I think that an mandatory enlistment for all citizens between the age of 16 to 21into a military who's main purpose beyond defense would for a rapid deployment of humanitarian aid, would go a long distance towards dealing with both societies and the individual obsession with self protection while making this world a less adversarial place to live.

    I don't think I have ever heard support for the draft uttered in the active military. It always comes from those who would not have to suffer through that or have to lead unwilling conscripts.

    That said, the volunteer army already has global response forces. A few divisions worth of them that respond to things like the Phillipines or Haiti.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited March 2014
    @Frozen_Paratrooper

    This probably comes from my time long ago in arduous practices in monastery's which has some interesting parallels to the military. Break em down and rebuild them!

    I offered the draft as a way to mandate that all people who would hide behind having our young used as cannon fodder, would get an up close personal taste of what that really means, as well as mandating that part of such an education system would be the real movement of humanitarian aid over the meager & sluggish examples that you offered.
    It is another way of saying that the military is just a representation of each of our egos.
    Since I can't see any way to eliminate either from society at large, what I offered was the way that they could represent more harmlessness than harmfulness to others.

    In a separate note,
    Do you think that the manner in which our current injured vets are being treated would make any new potential candidates for military service, rethink their plans.
    Invincible_summer
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I think there is a lot of value in young people especially, serving. But I don't mean serving in military. There are many, many ways people can contribute via volunteering that doesn't include the military. AmeriCorps, for example. And not to change the topic but just a quick mention, I think that people who receive government assistance should volunteer service in the same way. It is a manner of giving back and would increase the confidence of so many people, not to mention compassion and understanding about the world.

    My 17 year old is in several youth action groups where they help rebuild homes and do other community projects as well as working at food pantries and other things. It's invaluable for people to do those kinds of things. However, I think it's short sighted to say everyone should have to do military service. Of the 5 people in our house, only one of us would qualify within the health requirements for the US military.

    I think service to the country in some form should be required, or at least as highly rewarded as service in the military. For how many people here join just for the GI Bill money, they could instead perhaps make the same amount of money in benefits in the Peace Corps, Red Cross, AmeriCorps and so on. But instead, the people who volunteer for those services get either nothing, or a very small stipened and maybe a little college credit. They don't get money to use for college when they are done. It's a strong motivator and we'd be well served, in the US at least, to place the same value and benefit on humanitarian service as we do military.
    how
  • See, I'm currently in the Royal Navy (Not for long though!) and from the word go I was questioning whether being part of the military was ethical or not.
    Firstly, I think it's down to your own personal outlook. There is no right or wrong answer, as is the case with many things. However, I personally think from my experience the military is a force for good. Gone are the days where the aim of a military was to find and conquer. Now it's a case of a country's own defense, and on top of that looking after our allies as well.
    I appreciate that the army and marines (mainly, but not exclusively) are a fighting (and ultimately killing) force and those deaths with rest on the shoulders of those servicemen for the rest of their lives. I just wanted to post this question to get some ideas of what others thought :) I'm extremely new to Buddhism (only joined this site today) and I want to learn all there is to learn!

    Thanks for the great responses guys
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I think it's worth mentioning that the experience probably differs greatly depending on which country, and what capacity you serve in.
  • how said:

    @Frozen_Paratrooper


    I offered the draft as a way to mandate that all people who would hide behind having our young used as cannon fodder, would get an up close personal taste of what that really means, as well as mandating that part of such an education system would be the real movement of humanitarian aid over the meager & sluggish examples that you offered.
    It is another way of saying that the military is just a representation of each of our egos.
    Since I can't see any way to eliminate either from society at large, what I offered was the way that they could represent more harmlessness than harmfulness to others.

    In a separate note,
    Do you think that the manner in which our current injured vets are being treated would make any new potential candidates for military service, rethink their plans.

    Most of my soldiers joined out of either a love of country, patriotism, or a longing for adventure. Very few if any new recruits give post-service medical services a second thought. The VA is contemptible and incompetent. They are the perfect example of why one should think twice before entrusting the state with their health.
  • yagryagr Veteran
    I am a veteran. I joined because I was promised that I would be sent to nursing school. I was lied to and was too naïve to know to get it in writing. I was injured in a clandestine military action and left to die. I made it back, was charged with a host of charges that would relieve the military of the appearance of ordering me to do the task for which I was charged. I was given a general discharge under other than honorable conditions and as a result, do not get veteran's benefits which would include medical benefits.

    As a direct result of my injuries, my doctor told me in May of last year that if I wished to live to see Christmas, I should stop working immediately. I did. I am still on the sunrise side of fifty years old but have no plans to make it to the other side. Without being able to work, my standard of living has dropped off significantly. I have applied for Social Security Disability but anyone whose gone through it can tell you how long that process can take. Without health insurance, I can see a doctor but can't afford to take the tests necessary to determine a course of treatment. All we have are symptoms - we can't determine the cause.

    My wife and I live in a converted shed without running water or electric heat. We live a few miles from the Canadian border and have seen some cold days up here. We burn whatever I can gather, but my strength is gone so it often isn't much. Last month we ripped up old clothes for toilet paper.

    Honestly, I've no resentment toward the military any longer. And, also honestly, I'm the happiest person I know personally. I considered deeply before posting this because I am not looking for sympathy. Life is fine and I'm enjoying every day I've got. That said, many people have positive experiences in the military but if I was faced with the choice today, knowing that this was a possible outcome, I wouldn't do it.
    followthepath
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited March 2014
    @Frozen_Paratrooper
    I think that a VA really testifies about the value that a countries political/business place on the war machinery over the folks that are chewed up by it's operation.
    Calling the VA contemptible and incompetent is accurate but sidesteps the darker issues at why the powers that you are protecting, think so little of your worth when you are no longer able to do that.
    What was that introductory speech about the Statue of liberty? Give us your....

    PS Canada is just as appalling in this regard.
  • in my opinion, it greatly concerns me that society seems to believe that its ok to fight and take others lives if something bad has happened elsewhere. its completely senseless to me. although, this will never change due to close minded and lazy attitudes
  • yagryagr Veteran
    how said:

    ...but sidesteps the darker issues at why the powers that you are protecting, think so little of your worth when you are no longer able to do that.

    Unfortunately, at least in my little corner of the world, it is not just the powers that be. In the Veteran's Day parade that I attended, there were more vets marching than there were folks in attendance. Too, and I'm probably oversharing here but the irony is too great...

    My wife and I were just kids when she was given a sentence of life without the possibility of parole. She was fifteen years old. We got that overturned four years later but she still spent twenty-four years in prison for a crime that a State Supreme Court Justice, speaking about her case on the record in 2009 said, "If we knew then what we know today, she wouldn't have done a day in prison." Six months later the parole board denied her release and sent her back for another two years.

    Insert irony: there are 2576 cases of sentences of Life Without the Possibility of Parole worldwide given to juveniles. 2569 of them are in the United States. Ironic that I went eight years where the only person on Veteran's Day who wished me Happy Veteran's Day was a person who was suffering a fate almost exclusively reserved for children in the country I was sworn to protect.

    My point is, it is not just the powers that be who look upon us as expendable when they no longer need us. It is also society at large. Just the other day, a veteran's package was voted down that fifty years ago, no politician who voted it down could have been re-elected. Today, it won't matter to the electorate.

    person
  • CheChe Veteran
    "For those who fight for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know"
    US Soldier in Vietnam
    BhikkhuJayasarasndymorn
  • DharmaMcBumDharmaMcBum Spacebus Wheelman York, UK Veteran
    lobster said:

    I feel all military should be offered free access to all dharma centre courses as a public service and to shake up the wooly minded hippy types (that would be me). The greatest book on future warfare is not by Sun Tzu but Lieutenant Colonel Jim Channon
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Earth_Battalion

    image

    If we all went with "Evolutionary Tactics" the world would be a better place. I got a copy and keep it in my Spacebus :ninja:
    If nothing else it's a good thought provoking read :D
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    how said:

    @lotusblue
    The military is simply societies equivalent to each of our own efforts at protecting the self. I find it hypocritical to hear folks rallying against the military while they remain so unwilling to address their own personal versions of it.
    And yet here we are, trying to do what is nearly impossible to do..
    That being said, I think that an mandatory enlistment for all citizens between the age of 16 to 21into a military who's main purpose beyond defense would for a rapid deployment of humanitarian aid, would go a long distance towards dealing with both societies and the individual obsession with self protection while making this world a less adversarial place to live.

    And didn't you just do it again...take away personal choice for something that is not needed?

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran

    how said:

    @Frozen_Paratrooper


    I offered the draft as a way to mandate that all people who would hide behind having our young used as cannon fodder, would get an up close personal taste of what that really means, as well as mandating that part of such an education system would be the real movement of humanitarian aid over the meager & sluggish examples that you offered.
    It is another way of saying that the military is just a representation of each of our egos.
    Since I can't see any way to eliminate either from society at large, what I offered was the way that they could represent more harmlessness than harmfulness to others.

    In a separate note,
    Do you think that the manner in which our current injured vets are being treated would make any new potential candidates for military service, rethink their plans.

    Most of my soldiers joined out of either a love of country, patriotism, or a longing for adventure. Very few if any new recruits give post-service medical services a second thought. The VA is contemptible and incompetent. They are the perfect example of why one should think twice before entrusting the state with their health.
    My father, career Air Force, spent his rapidly declining weeks in a VA hospital and got appropriate and compassionate care. The family was treated well, too.

  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    edited March 2014
    Che said:

    "For those who fight for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know"
    US Soldier in Vietnam

    This kind of reminds me of the last quote of John Adams from the HBO series(best show about the revolution ever! a time period ignored greatly by hollywood):

    "No, posterity. You will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."

    poor John is rolling over in his proverbial grave right about now ahaha.
    yagr
  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    vinlyn said:

    how said:

    @Frozen_Paratrooper


    I offered the draft as a way to mandate that all people who would hide behind having our young used as cannon fodder, would get an up close personal taste of what that really means, as well as mandating that part of such an education system would be the real movement of humanitarian aid over the meager & sluggish examples that you offered.
    It is another way of saying that the military is just a representation of each of our egos.
    Since I can't see any way to eliminate either from society at large, what I offered was the way that they could represent more harmlessness than harmfulness to others.

    In a separate note,
    Do you think that the manner in which our current injured vets are being treated would make any new potential candidates for military service, rethink their plans.

    Most of my soldiers joined out of either a love of country, patriotism, or a longing for adventure. Very few if any new recruits give post-service medical services a second thought. The VA is contemptible and incompetent. They are the perfect example of why one should think twice before entrusting the state with their health.
    My father, career Air Force, spent his rapidly declining weeks in a VA hospital and got appropriate and compassionate care. The family was treated well, too.

    @vinlyn
    In Canada,
    my inlaws (2nd world war) vets can't use all the benefits they are being offered while
    the wounded Vets from more recent wars fall into a different category that are being very poorly being served. It is good to hear from you Vinlyn that this isn't the case in the USA.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Jayantha said:

    Che said:

    "For those who fight for it, freedom has a taste the protected will never know"
    US Soldier in Vietnam

    This kind of reminds me of the last quote of John Adams from the HBO series(best show about the revolution ever! a time period ignored greatly by hollywood):

    "No, posterity. You will never know how much it cost us to preserve your freedom. I hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."

    poor John is rolling over in his proverbial grave right about now ahaha.
    Odd you bring that up today. This morning I was reading something about how people suffered in Boston during the Revolution...very vivid...kinda stunned me. How easy it is for us to forget...or never bother knowing.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    how said:





    @vinlyn
    In Canada,
    my inlaws (2nd world war) vets can't use all the benefits they are being offered while
    the wounded Vets from more recent wars fall into a different category that are being very poorly being served. It is good to hear from you Vinlyn that this isn't the case in the USA.

    Of course, @How, I can't speak for all cases, but my father (a WWII vet and Korean War vet) received care that was so good that it surprised us. We'd heard horror stories about VA hospitals, but it's where he wanted to go, and while the building itself looked outdated, the care was superb.

    Personally, however, I feel that there shouldn't be VA hospitals (*) and that vets should be able to receive their care at any hospital. Too many vets don't live near a VA hospital. *There might be a need for specialized VA hospitals for medical needs that are unique to vets.

    Invincible_summer
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    My grandfather died when he was 61 due to cancer caused by repeated exposure to nuclear testing areas. When they did tests at Bikini Atol, he was sent in to check the results. After he was diagnosed with cancer (and for several years prior had a lot of major health problems) he fought with congress, and everyone up the ladder to get compensation for being lied to and to cover the medical costs. Nothing ever happened. Several other families went through the same process and not one of them was compensated in any way for being lied to or having their lives stolen. Not even in paying off medical bills.

    While I agree with the various quotes about freedom, I'm don't think we can say all our fighting really has had to do with protecting American freedom. That tends to be the tag line we are sold but I don't buy it. In some cases yes, our freedom and the freedom of others. But in many other cases the wars weren't necessary for the reasons we were told. Freedom is a wonderful thing, and I have no doubt those of us who sit and talk about it don't understand it in the same way as though who fight for it. But if they think every war we've ever fought was to protect American freedom, I don't agree with that.
    howInvincible_summerlobster
  • JohnGJohnG Veteran
    I am a veteran of the U. S. Air Force, Strategic Air Command, Barksdale AFB, 1979-83. 913 Tactical Air support Willow grove pa. Pa. Army National Guard 1-109 FA as a Forward Observer from 1984 to 89, 1995-2001. I entered the service when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. And Barksdale was and possible still is ground zero for the third missile launched. Military service to me, is a necessity of serving one's nation, community, and family. And, yes I do believe in a draft! One of the things the draft does, is make sure our leaders, are very choosy and cautious in sending our military to areas of the world for the purpose of war profiteering, as is evident with our all volunteer military today.
    howInvincible_summer
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    So let's see, in a draft, people who don't want to serve will be forced to, and people who do want to serve may be forced not to.

    Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
  • vinlyn said:

    So let's see, in a draft, people who don't want to serve will be forced to, and people who do want to serve may be forced not to.

    Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

    Precisely. Again, the advocates will not be the junior leaders responsible for leading the unwilling. Volunteers misbehave enough as it is.
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    I admire the bravery and commitment that soldiers have - I don't think I'd be able to put my life on the line to defend my country.

    I could also see how some may see the foolhardiness in this: fighting and dying for a concept as nebulous as nationalism.

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
    One of the things the draft does, is make sure our leaders, are very choosy and cautious in sending our military to areas of the world for the purpose of war profiteering, as is evident with our all volunteer military today.
    @JohnG -- You may well be right, but when it comes to profiteering, you might want to consider the words of Marine Corps. Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler -- a man who won TWO medals of honor. Among his other writings, there is "War is a Racket."
    lobster
  • JohnGJohnG Veteran
    genkaku said:

    One of the things the draft does, is make sure our leaders, are very choosy and cautious in sending our military to areas of the world for the purpose of war profiteering, as is evident with our all volunteer military today.
    @JohnG -- You may well be right, but when it comes to profiteering, you might want to consider the words of Marine Corps. Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler -- a man who won TWO medals of honor. Among his other writings, there is "War is a Racket."

    Oh how true!! But after the disaster of Vietnam, a draft would remind the powers that be, especially those who served in that war, to be not so willing to send fathers, mothers sisters and brothers to a war at whims.

  • What I have never understood is the belief that the draft would somehow reduce the likelihood of warfare. Does anyone remember the Korean War? Vietnam? Going back further to WWII (the draft was already in place before US involvement), WWI, the Civil War. Interesting how those most interested in pursuing peace would happily press gang tens of millions of people into indentured servitude and veritable slavery. Do you realize how expensive a ten million man army would be?
    vinlyn
  • yagryagr Veteran
    Today, in the United States as well as any country that would like to consider themselves socially progressive, would have to navigate the dangerous political terrain regarding whether or not to draft women. I doubt the United States, for one example, is ready to accept either choice without some serious fallout. As a result, I don't expect the draft will be implemented until fear of impending doom overrides the fear of women coming home in body bags by the tens of thousands.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    If the draft returns, women damn well better be eligible for it.
    DairyLama
  • Killing soldiers is not Buddhism.
    Some Buddhists are killing soldiers.
    Emptiness really is form. What do ya know . . . and now back to the serious matter of suffering.

    image
    yagr
  • yagryagr Veteran
    vinlyn said:

    If the draft returns, women damn well better be eligible for it.

    Well, as it stands at the moment, my daughters do not have to register for the draft at eighteen years old in order to get their voting privileges. Since our sons do, there won't be parity for some time if at all.

    Too, there will, as there always has been, exceptions. I think a designation of 'single mom' will certainly be one of them. Since getting pregnant and not informing the father is relatively simple for most women, I suspect that if we tried to make women register for the draft and there was any indication that we may implement it, we would face a baby boom the likes of which have never been seen before.

    Which of course, will cause an entirely new set of problems. I suspect that we cannot legislate away suffering.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    edited March 2014
    Edit: Deleted post, put it in the wrong thread.
  • lotusblue said:

    I'm not necessarily looking for a Buddhist attitude, just your own. It's something I've seen a lot of controversy with and I'm curious as to what people's induvidual thoughts are. We live in a society now where the military is used with humanitarian aid and disaster relief just as much as in conflicts and drug busting and the like, however like everthing else in the world it has it's own flaws and corruptions. What do you guys think?

    The uniforms are rather smart compared to the robes of monks.
    Nele
  • BhikkhuJayasaraBhikkhuJayasara Bhikkhu Veteran
    footiam said:

    lotusblue said:

    I'm not necessarily looking for a Buddhist attitude, just your own. It's something I've seen a lot of controversy with and I'm curious as to what people's induvidual thoughts are. We live in a society now where the military is used with humanitarian aid and disaster relief just as much as in conflicts and drug busting and the like, however like everthing else in the world it has it's own flaws and corruptions. What do you guys think?

    The uniforms are rather smart compared to the robes of monks.
    oh... but you have no idea how comfortable robes are :)..comfort beats smart any day.
  • robotrobot Veteran
    I'll take jeans and a tee shirt over either of them any day.
  • Jayantha said:


    footiam said:

    lotusblue said:

    I'm not necessarily looking for a Buddhist attitude, just your own. It's something I've seen a lot of controversy with and I'm curious as to what people's induvidual thoughts are. We live in a society now where the military is used with humanitarian aid and disaster relief just as much as in conflicts and drug busting and the like, however like everthing else in the world it has it's own flaws and corruptions. What do you guys think?

    The uniforms are rather smart compared to the robes of monks.
    oh... but you have no idea how comfortable robes are :)..comfort beats smart any day.
    It is not easy to put on a robe.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    footiam said:

    ...

    It is not easy to put on a robe.

    As the old abbot we met in Ubon Ratchathani proved, as his ding dong was hanging out of his robe while he was gardening! (No joke...but he was senile).

    DharmaMcBum
  • vinlyn said:

    footiam said:

    ...

    It is not easy to put on a robe.

    As the old abbot we met in Ubon Ratchathani proved, as his ding dong was hanging out of his robe while he was gardening! (No joke...but he was senile).

    Oh dear!
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    footiam said:

    vinlyn said:

    footiam said:

    ...

    It is not easy to put on a robe.

    As the old abbot we met in Ubon Ratchathani proved, as his ding dong was hanging out of his robe while he was gardening! (No joke...but he was senile).

    Oh dear!
    Yes, that's just about what my mother said.

  • JohnGJohnG Veteran

    What I have never understood is the belief that the draft would somehow reduce the likelihood of warfare. Does anyone remember the Korean War? Vietnam? Going back further to WWII (the draft was already in place before US involvement), WWI, the Civil War. Interesting how those most interested in pursuing peace would happily press gang tens of millions of people into indentured servitude and veritable slavery. Do you realize how expensive a ten million man army would be?



    It has nothing to do with the belief that the draft would reduce the likelihood of war. I have the belief that when you have conscripted troops, those of power will not be so quick to send in troops and be so quick to declare war. After the Vietnam fiasco, there are many who were drafted serving now in congress, and cabinet positions. Doesn't anyone notice that those who want to push the war button are those who obtained numerous draft deferments in Vietnam? With what we had a conscripted military, those people wouldn't be so livid to send troops all over the world.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    edited March 2014
    Many of our wars throughout our history occurred when there was no standing draft. Your premise doesn't work.
  • JohnGJohnG Veteran
    Actually there was. Germany, Italy and Japan had mandatory military service in world war I and II. The U. S. didn't conscript until only a few months previous to World War I, and in the late thirties before World war II. Through out the Cold War. America, had conscription up to early seventies, and the Soviet Union had it until it's demise.

    The issue I'm trying to imply is that, due to the fiasco's with Vietnam, and Korea, today it would be hard pressed to easily establish wars like Iraq and Afghanistan so easily with and keep it going as long with a conscripted military.

    In fact Sweden, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, and a few other modern nations of Europe have a mandatory military service period.
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