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Zen Buddhist Beliefs
msac123
Explorer
I know that the eightfold path is the main focus of Zen Buddhism, but are there any other beliefs and teachings of the Buddha that are part of Zen Buddhism?
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The eightfold path is not just zen buddhism, it is the obligation of buddhism.
Not necessarily true. Perhaps in a a certain way, but as an actual teaching, it's not. My teacher doesn't cover it at all, and as I am understanding, neither do a lot of Vajrayana teachers, and some Mahayana teachers, too.
As me and citta have said the eightfold path is an advanced teaching given to longtime yogis during Buddhas first sermon. It is the noble view, but it takes many years of practice to understand what right view is and until you have a relatively stable awareness of the view you are not started on the 8FP. Until that time it is self improvement.
I haven't heard many Zen teachings on the 8FP. Don't they go outside of scripture?
@msac123
Depends on the Zen school/ linage & teacher.
In my Soto Zen School, although the practice was centered around zazen meditation, the Master was fond of recommending the truth, the whole truth and anything that works.
While the 4 NT, 8 FP, 16 precepts, Dependent origination, Sandokai, the excellent mirror Samadi and the Prajnaparimita were the daily basic's, virtually anything from the Tripataka was fair game.
I realise this is a personal and may be regarded as a purely philosophical view, but once the true nature of reality is realised @karasti, one is obliged to bestow a moral and ethical code on ones self as it is in ones best interest.
I also find it a little strange that one of the noble truths wouldn't be applied in any buddhist schools? I don't know much though......
@Bunks my Lama's husband wrote a book on the four noble truths. At the same time my Lama said that the truths were an advanced realization. Indeed if you have mastered them then you are a Buddha.
I wasn't saying that I didn't agree with the Eightfold path. I was only disagreeing with the implication that it is taught in all of Buddhism (since the OP was asking about the teachings). Also, I don't think one actually needs a numbered list to be able to maintain a moral code.
That said, I think the general theme of the 4NT and the 8FP are the stream within all of Buddhism. That whatever teachings you are working on, whatever you are practicing, both of those things are consistently present everywhere. That doesn't mean it needs to be taught as a numbered list, however. That doesn't mean my teacher isn't a fan of all the things the 8FP talks about, just that there isn't a need to specifically teach it because it is already present in everything we are learning.
The Tibetan Sangha I attend teaches the 8FP.
I agree @Jeffrey but surely to master them you need to study and try to follow them?
Obliged? What does that mean as you use it here?
Obviously not required pre or post realization.
It means @nevermind when you understand the little bit of you that is me, and you truly want suffering to cease, being nice and moral is obligatory. So no, pre-realisation you may be pardoned, but post-realisation, your actions hold only you to account, and only you can regret or deny.
If this is not seen as an obligation, then I must insist you are ignorant, so it doesn't matter;
if you understand the obligation and continue to act in an immoral way, then you will only harm yourself in the long run.
Is that what you wanted to hear? Do you want to argue this further?
Ignorance -> dukkha...
What @how said, but in my experience many Zennies tend to not focus too much on the Buddha's teachings as much as other schools of Mahayana. And definitely not as much as Theravada.
Zen is mainly about "letting go" and experiencing reality without any coloured glasses on, even "Buddhist" glasses. A zen teacher even told me not to worry about cultivating paramitas because they will naturally come through sitting zazen, through letting go.
Perhaps some can do it, and many do find refuge in the tradition, but I feel Zen can feel like jumping into the deep end. It's attractive because it cuts to the chase, but you may find yourself in a difficult position because you have no idea what you're doing.
YMMV.
Obligation is no part of realisation. By being one is a result of ones Being, the following of virtue is part of that Realised Being. It is why the realised Christian Mystic, realised Sufi, realised Pagan, realised ordinary person, naturally follow a non delusional and virtuous lifestyle. The agitated, contentious, dukkha filled go about their usual busy-ness . . .
This is solely my take:
I find it very troubling that anyone should suggest that The Four Noble Truths or The Eightfold Path were in any way reserved for those of an advanced or longtime practice... that they were somehow imbued with a profundity that newcomers could not be privy to.
Which of us, at whatever point in practice, has not "understood" one teaching or another only to find, six months or a year later, that we had "understood," but our understanding was not entirely ripe ... or, in fact, that we had been mistaken? OK, make a mistake and correct it -- isn't that Buddhism? My feeling is that everyone -- everyone -- of whatever understanding is welcome ... welcome to Buddhism, welcome to understand, welcome to make a mistake, welcome to correct that mistake. And if things turn out to be "correct" or "advanced," they are welcome to correct those perceptions as well.
I think that Buddhism is centrally about suffering/dukkha/the unsatisfactoriness of life. Suffering is an equal-opportunity employer, one without which, so-called enlightenment would fall flat on its face. Suffering is everyone's prerogative and dear companion. There is no advanced suffering or easy-peasy suffering, there is just suffering.
This does not mean that suffering cannot be handled in more and less skilful ways ... that it cannot be more and less clarified. For this reason, Buddhism provides teachings ... all sorts of teachings appreciated in all sorts of ways. And along the way, you nudge me and I nudge you; you review and I review; you make mistakes and I make mistakes; you exhibit determination and so (on my good days) do I.
Floundering newcomers may feel hopelessly lost from time to time. I know I did. Getting a chant wrong, not knowing when to bow, clueless about sunyata or kensho, wondering if they'd go to some Buddhist hell because they got horny during meditation, and generally ignorant at every turn. So many things seemed "advanced" or beyond their reach or profound beyond their means. Slowly they learned to talk the talk and then walk the walk ... but it was a stumbling route from their point of view.
But as I look back at people who haven't memorized the Heart Sutra or known when to gassho or missed out on some other bit of ritual etiquette or learning ... I wish like fury I could tell them what truly great teachers they were. What a blessing. Honest to God! Do they need a hand here and there? Sure! But that hardly means there is anything missing or inferior in their lives or that an uninformed understanding of anything, including the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, cannot flower in season.
I guess I just think Buddhism is more advanced than anything that might be called "advanced."
Sorry to run on.
@genkaku do you object towards calling any teaching advanced?
I'm just repeating what my teacher told me. She said it was EXCELLENT to follow 8FP but she also said that it would not be the NOBLE 8FP until a breakthrough into right view. Are you saying their aren't such things as break throughs? In Zen what about Kensho and Satori? My teacher teaches 8FP but not as lists. Yet she is firm in saying that it isn't the start of the NOBLE 8FP until a shaking break through in the way the world is viewed. So until then the 8FP is a self improvement course.
Indeed Buddha taught those teachings to advanced yogis who had been practicing for years. They had renounced sense pleasures ages ago. I am not saying it is advanced to be vain. But rather I am analyzing the audience and suggesting that Buddhas teaching was catered to that audience.
Buddhism is about letting go of self cherishing. Trungpa said that all of Buddhism was unified on the point of taming the ego. This is what is essential to practice the 8FP.. If it is just self improvement it might not work on taming the ego. We have other practices that are effective for taming the ego such as lojong. That's the exact point. Is the 8FP puffing up your ego? Or is it a letting go? Or letting be? Or turning towards fear?
I am with Genkaku about the 8 FP but that is why I choose to wear a Zen hat. Just can't seem to slide by a posting about Zen without nibbling.
The practices of each school has their own checks and balances.
In isolation, they can appear petty and short sighted but as part of a larger practice they are the accumulative experience of the linage holders of that school.
The trouble seems to come when anyone speaks as if the checks and balances of one schools practice, applies to everyone else.
For the original question, about the only belief Zen has that isn't covered in the Noble Truth and 8-Fold path teachings is the origin story, the Flower Sermon where Zen was founded when direct prajna was first transmitted to the first Zen Master, whose name I can't be bothered to look up. Other branches of Buddhism will tell you that never happened and it was invented to give Zen the authority of direct transmission from the Buddha.
As for the 8FP, Zen doesn't focus on teaching the sutras but in living them. That silent flower exchange contained all Buddha's wisdom in one action, including all the words he'd spoken up till then. That didn't make the words invalid. The Zen Buddhist is expected to live a life that reflects the 8FP but not because some sutra tells you to do so. You live that life because a mind free from selfish desires naturally finds the correct path. There's nothing in the 8FP that isn't glaringly obvious with a clear mind. Correct effort? Correct vocation? Why would you need a written list of instructions to do such an obvious thing?
That's the theory, in any case. Results may vary, as they say.
I heard it was an apple . . . wait wrong story . . . and I think that one involved a naga . . .
Zen can be a transmission without form but those guys can be so formal, with their black T-shirts and flowerless sour puss faces . . . Deep down of course they are petals of the lotus . . . will leave the core and seeds for @how . . . no bite required . . .
"A special transmission outside the scriptures,
Not founded on words and letters.
Directly pointing to a person’s mind,
One sees one’s nature and becomes a Buddha."
That is usually why it's recommended to find a real life teacher.
Ditto.
My first experience of Buddhadharma was at the old Wat Buddhapadipa before it moved to Wimbledon.
We spent a lot of time on the 8fp and the 4nt's.
I then became involved in the Vajrayana and it was some time before I realised that I had not heard about them for a long time.
As I have said before this does not mean that my teachers had something against the 8fp or 4nt's.
As karasti says many of the principles enshrined in them can be found in the Vajrayana and even in Dzogchen..but they are approached in a very different way.
They are more like Jazz themes for riffing on, rather than as a set of rules, 'first you do this and then this'..
Karma is obligatory. What is wrong with being obliged to do anything?
Karma ( 'action' ) may be obligatory, but Karma-vipaka is not obligatory.
When duality is transcended karma-vipaka is not created.
Karma-vipaka is created by an identification with something which one is not.
Yes, this can be helpful. But there are teachers that will basically say there is "nothing to do" except sit, and will suggest that elaborating any further would be in poor form. The words would start a conditioning process in the student's mind and therefore not allow the student to truly let go and have a "pure" experience of reality.
In theory, sounds cool. In practice, it's frustrating for those students who need a more structured path (most beginners, IMO). At worst, it leads to this weird, complacent "I was told not to judge my practice, so if I just fantasize about sex every time I meditate that's okay!" thing.
I thought Karma Vipaka is the fruit that karma ripens into be it positive or negative. That is the obligatory end is it not? lol
Karma is literally action...that is obligatory. Even breathing or scratching our nose is action.
Vipaka is the fruit of karma. Vipaka is not active in one who has no identification with phenomena. Vipaka in her/his case has nowhere to return to.
Also this "just sit and don't study the sutras" style of teaching is from a Buddhist culture where you grew up hearing all about what Buddha said. By the time you're a young man and ready to do the just sitting, you already know about the NT and 8FP. It's not like the Master is keeping it a secret.
Zen = zenmeditation (+ 4 noble truths + 8fold path + tripple gem)
Pre-realized folk don't regret or deny? I don't get it.
That must explain it.
If you don't understand the obligation you won't be harming yourself in the long run? Ignorance must truly be bliss.
Which part?
Sorry, my dance card is full, but thanks for asking.
I find that only a few teachers are like that , from the ones I met at least, and those usually aren't the good ones. A good teacher will speak when it's appropriate, with the appropriate speech and remain silent when it's appropriate. So let me rephrase. "That's why it recommended to find a good teacher!
From the one's I've met, some are not that great, some are ok and some are very good. Depending on their teaching style and whether or not their style resonates with you.:) I've always felt that if a teacher does not resonate with you, you just go looking for one that does. There are a lot of different teaching styles out there from different teachers, even though they are teaching the same thing.
@Invincible_summer
Zen allows folks into the deep end of life's pool because a Zen practice is not about keeping ones identity safely on top of it but is instead about how to freely live within it.
Disquieting for sure. but what challenge to our conditioning isn't.
That part about the deliberate fostering of sexual fantasies as an acceptable meditation practice is so far off the mark as to be truly bizarre. Please provide your sources.
@seeker242
It is not my place here to get involved in who is, or is not, a good teacher.
What I will say is that a sincere Buddhist student of meditation, who steadfastly maintains his or her compass heading towards selflessness, need not be hindered by the lesser qualifications of a teacher, any more than the historical Buddha was.
I can see why @betaboy comments in the way that he does @Nevermind.
Why do spiritually realised people turn themselves to do good deeds in there communities or indeed the world. I put it to you that they possess and develop the innate moral recognition of how to be right, and impose a moral compass on themselves.
Is the use of impose better or worse than oblige -
hmmm, perhaps I should go with a less forceful verb, like incur or determine. Yes lets say they determine to have a moral compass. Does that hanker you less to argue this point. The 8FP determines buddhism as the last of the 4NT.
Agreed! Although I think 2 different teachers could both be "fully qualified" but simply teach in a very different style. And if a student resonates with teacher A's style, then they will get more help from that teacher's style then they would from teacher B. But that does not mean teacher A is more qualified than teacher B. It just means that if teacher A is a very good teacher for one person, that does not necessarily mean that teacher A is the best teacher for everyone. For one person , teacher A could be the best teacher and for another person, teacher B could be the best teacher.
For example, the type of training they do at Eiheiji Temple in Japan is of a certain style. It's very hard, very disciplined! For some people, that is the best kind of training for them. However, it's certainty not for everyone! Thich Nhat Hanh on the other hand has a very soft style. For some people, Thich Nhat Hanh style would be the best for them. But one is not really intrinsically better than the other.
Reminds me of a story of back in China during the old days. Where there was a division between the northern school and the southern school. 2 different chan schools giving a different style of teaching. The teachers in the north would sometimes send some monks to go study with the teacher of the south and the teachers in the south would sometimes send some monks to go study with the teacher of the north. But it really did not matter to the teachers themselves, because both schools ultimately teach the same thing.
:om:
@seeker242
Yes, even students of Rinzai are sent to Soto and vise versa when it seems like it might be a better fit for the student. One Zen monastery I trained in even had Catholic priests and Greek orthodox monks dropping by for meditation instructions.
But....I was really responding to how some of the most questionable teachers possible, have still produced truly excellent students.
I guess my quandary is whether those students would have evolved anyway in spite of their teacher or if the manner by which I judge a teacher as questionable, is irrelevant.
I suppose that a teacher who behaves badly but induces their students to trust first in their own meditation practice may actually be a good teacher. Personally though, I think that a good teacher needs to be as good at transmitting the teaching as personally manifesting it
I have often followed the old.."By their fruits shall you know them" as the method of determining whether a teacher is worthy of following over whatever particular likes or dislikes I have at the time....but.....I'd now be careful of watching for
organizations that have limited this definition of those "fruits" to their Masters students, as a means of excusing and overlooking their teachers poor personal behavior.
@how -- Your response above made me look back on some of the training I went through: I look back and think, "I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy and I wouldn't trade it for all the tea in China."
Not sure if that's relevant or not. Just an association.
I would say because the "real deal stuff", so to speak, doesn't come from anyone or any teaching or any place outside yourself to begin with. Which is kinda what you already said.
Agreed! I don't think it's teachers that create excellent students but students that create excellent students, via their own efforts. After all, there are plenty of good teachers out there with a lot of poor students, Ha!
Realized folk are just ordinary folkses. Not really any more or less moral than unrealized folk.
>
Well, I try to keep an open mind. But the thing with spiritual practice is that sometimes you don't realize the practice or teaching isn't working for you until you spent quite some time with it. And even then, maybe you're not applying yourself correctly. Lots of variables here.
Now I don't mean to give the impression that I am trying to take a dump on Zen practice. I'm just highlighting some pitfalls that I have seen/experienced that newcomers would be especially prone to.
I do wholeheartedly agree that a good teacher can guide you properly. But sometimes it's hard to tell who's a "good" teacher until you've shopped around, so to speak.
Yeah, that's true. I do think that it is a powerful and effective practice for many (as it is one of the most popular forms of Buddhism in the West). However, I also think that for people new to Buddhism and meditation, it can be a bit much, as well as misunderstood (in the ways I pointed out).
I admit to exaggerating. My point was that the emphasis on "not judging one's practice" can basically encourage complacency and ignoble behaviour. In one Zen group I attended, someone asked what to do if they were experiencing anger and violent thoughts when sitting in zazen - the teacher said to just watch them pass. Which is fine for someone who has some experience in meditation and has the wisdom to know the difference between ego fabrications and reality, but for the beginner it provides no tools to work to reduce the problems they are facing.
well, i am not a Zen Buddhist, even not a Buddhist, rather i am a Hindu, so ideally i should not reply to the above question. but as far as my readings on internet for the last 2 years goes, my understanding says that Zen does not emphasize any belief to begin with - so kind of no direct teachings on 4NT, 8FP, DO etc - rather Zen just asks to 'just sit' and do not do anything else.
Dogen's teachings says that practice is enlightenment and enlightenment is practice - there is no enlightenment outside practice and there is no practice outside enlightenment - so Dogen used one word practice-enlightenment for it.
In a way, the whole path concept gets dropped here - this i think differentiates Therevada from Mahayana (Zen coming from Mind only philosophy school teachings, which derived from Mahayana i think) - the difference is Therevada says 8FP leads to Nirvana, but Mahayana says Samsara and Nirvana appear simultaneously, as soon as duality arises due to movement of mind. So as per Mahayana, there is no path which leads to Nirvana, rather Samsara and Nirvana appear simultaneously. So Zen also emphasizes the same thing, and Dogen teachings say that every moment is a new moment, so practice needs to be done moment by moment by moment, with no past and no future.
Dogen teachings says to 'just sit' in zazen (meditation in which there is 'just sitting') - when the mind will realize its true nature, it will act in the way a clear, pure, virtuous, calm mind should act.
True . . . quite a strange one.
versus real world realisation by real world 'people' . . . who would have guessed?
Mr Cushion did you know? No you can not go out for a 'pillow fight' . . .
Ultimately, there is no practice, that is to be practised - the non-dual view. This just has to be realised through practice - the dual view, then you can go your way in the eternal moment happy (happy is short for happening btw). You might want to listen to the talk @lobster posted today in real refuge: http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/134/talk/3052/ it's very enlightening of the zen view.
Why would you need a written list of instructions to do such an obvious thing?
So you just make it up as you go along?
Could you say what the "true nature" of mind is?
well, i am too stupid or ignorant to answer the above question - but what i meant by 'true nature' of mind - was basically our true nature, meaning what we really are? call it Aatma, Self, Buddha-nature, Consciousness, Spirit, or whatever other word.
basically it should lead to sunyata( or emptiness) - from where it all originated.
dogen's teachings in genjo-koan says:
To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly.
Mahayana great vehicle has its ultimate goal to realize Sunyata(or emptiness), which raises compassion automatically by seeing suffering of others, when actually all phenomena are empty of any inherent existence.
Obviously, it's just the sound of one hand clapping! Hehe.:)
We can't see the suffering of others until we make emptiness real?
Sure. Don't you? It's our observation that grand plans in life never work out the way we anticipated, nor does a life necessarily fall into neat catagories. Clear mind, clear situation. Help all beings. It should not matter if you're working your job, or meditating, or talking to your friends when it comes to clear mind. That's the Zen way.
But that doesn't mean rejecting the 8FP. It's just treating your life as a whole instead of breaking it into bits. Another way of looking at the same thing.
That turns out not to be the case. The ending of greed, anger and delusion also ends compulsions to greedy, angry, ignorant behaviors.
On what do you base your case, on what you've read or have been told?
On the situations where I've brought greed, anger and delusion to an end in my own life, and it's led to more moral behavior.