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Question for Christian Buddhists or Buddhists Christians?
msac123
Explorer
How can a Christian also be a buddhist? Doesn't Christianity (evidence from the bible) say that you cannot follow another religion/way of life/philosophy/god and you need to only follow Christ?
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This is just vacillation. Choose wisely, and the wise shall be chosen!
See anyone can come up with something that sounds holy and wise.
Why do you feel the need to choose a religion to guide you, be guided to what is and feels right.
My sister is a Buddhist Christian Pagan, LOL.
They are just 3 different places she finds information that works for her. She is not a serious practitioner with any sort of goal for any of her religions. She believes in what Jesus taught, and what Buddha taught, and in burning a Yule log. Whatever doesn't work, she sets aside and doesn't worry about it.
Not all Christians feel a need to put themselves in a box and follow church doctrine. Not all churches preach the same doctrines.
Technically Jesus said "I am the Way, The Truth and the Life" Jesus never specifically said you can ONLY follow Christianity - he was a Jew for a start and the Last Supper was actually a Pesach (Passover) meal. It's only until about 300CE that the "rules" were formed during the First Nicene Council.
I have a Catholic father, a Jewish mother, been educated in both and strongly feel that - IMO - if Jesus didn't say it and the 12 Disciples didn't record it, it's not Christ's teachings.
If you're using an OT reference, that's Jewish Halachah (Law) and as such, Christians believe Jesus' death fulfilled the Covenant between Abraham and God and the OT is therefore irrelevant. Except when the lunatic fringe want to use a bastardised version of Leviticus to justify their hatred and bigotry, but that's another thread entirely.
And then you become a slave to dogma
Indeed.
Exodus 20
"You shall have no other gods before Me. 4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, "
I guess that might mean different things to different people......
Here's a suggestion.......
Living Buddha, Living Christ
http://www.amazon.com/Living-Buddha-Christ-Anniversary-Edition/dp/159448239X
A big part of my answer, @msac123, is how do you look at Buddhism or Christianity? If you only look at them in terms of being a religion, then it probably won't work completely smoothly...although it can still work.
Let's substitute politics for religion for a minute. Let's say your young and facing the first presidential election you're eligible to vote in. You're an intelligent guy, so you decide to not just vote like your parents vote, but you do think -- based on your civics classes -- that the best way to participate in a democracy is to join one of the political parties. Being intelligent, you decide to take the platform of the Democrats and the platform of the Republicans, read through them and next to each plank put a "+" where you agree or a "-" where you disagree. So you go through both documents, put your pluses and minuses, and start tallying things up. But there's a problem, some of the things in the Democratic Party you agree with, and some you don't. Some of the things in the Republican Party you agree with, and some you don't. So is the answer that you can be neither a Democrat or a Republican? Of course not. Nobody in either party can not allow you to be a member of their party. You have a right to balance things out in your own way and join whichever party you wish. And, somewhere down the road you can change your mind and switch parties.
Well guess what. There's nobody (despite a specific person in this forum) who can tell you aren't allowed to be a Buddhist, or a Christian. It's up to you which you should be. It's also up to you if you want to switch. And it's also up to you how you might want to mix the 2. You have the right of free thought.
Let's say you're a Buddhist and you take every Buddhist scripture there is and start putting those "+" and "-" signs and you find something in Buddhist scriptures you don't believe in. Does that mean you can't be a Buddhist? Certainly not. Let's say you read the New Testament and you find a lot of wisdom in it. But since you're a Buddhist do you have to throw the NT in the trash? No. You're allowed to find wisdom wherever you want.
Now you might say there are beliefs in Buddhism versus Christianity that collide. But guess what. There are beliefs in Mahayana Buddhism and Theravada Buddhism that collide...which is why there are varying sects in Buddhism that are quite different.
Can not Buddha and Jesus both be wise, but not always right?
Which Christianity? As a Gnostic Christian I take a particular interest in Dharma . . . or is it as a Buddhist I find value in others journeying . . .
Islam is unpopular due to extreme jihadists but Sufis still travel the mystic interiors familiar to Buddhists. Magickal Buddhism and shamanic dharma is available for my pagan tendencies. As an honorary Jew and hiram/tref food item I am an abomination to Allah but not Bodhisattvas . . .
Confused? Then follow a single focus. For me these distinctions are for as @how would perhaps say, 'tribal allegiance'.
My cushion is in non Buddhist therapy after a threat on his life was made (on this very forum)
Fantastic book
Exodus 20 is Jewish Halachah. But the Jews have 613 commandments, Christianity use 10. That's why you'll find the Pentateuch (5 Books of Moses) a lot different from the Old Testament of Christianity.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there are all shades of Christians as there are all shades of Jews and Buddhists (and don't even try to define Paganism for all
). You can try to follow it by the book of someone, but if you don't make it experiental, what's the point?
[lobster faints at the thought of following all the precepts/commandments/rules]
Have we no sense of moderation?
Cushion. Sit.
This I understand.
Walk. slow. This I understand.
Heheheh that's why Jews cut loose on Rosh Hashanah and Purim
Keep one eye on the world, and the other eye on Thomas Merton
You can be a christian and adhere to Buddhism.
You cannot be a Buddhist and adhere to Christianity.
Tell that to HHDL @federica...he says you most assuredly can. And I heard him say it.
Being a Theravada Buddhist and a Christian might be a problem.
But for a Mahayana Buddhist there is more than enough wriggle-room in the Dharmakaya concept.
Well, it IS just my opinion.... and if you can be both, has he committed to the Catholic Church, and is he now a regular church-goer, as well as practising his Buddhist religion, just as wholeheartedly? (Vis-a-vis previous threads....)
All I know is - I can't do it.
He also recommended that if you are born into a specific creed, or adhere to one, you should wholeheartedly commit to that, and be the best {insert relevant credo here} you can be....
He said there is no need to cross religious boundaries...because it is all there in all of them.
Just as bore holes made in different places hit the same water table.
But its also true that most of us have trouble doing one right...
Now, see....I have issues with the first line of that comment.
Crossing Religious Boundaries either means you cherry-pick - or take part, not all.
If you decide you CAN practise a Theistic religion alongside Buddhism, at one point, you begin to ask questions.
And examine.
And critique.
I'm sorry: I cannot wholeheartedly practise a religion that requires faith in a deity I do not believe in.
So as I said:
While (in MY OPINION) I could be a R.Catholic who adheres also, wholeheartedly, to the principles and teachings of Buddhism, I personally cannot be a committed practising Buddhist who ALSO embraces a God-Held religion, wholeheartedly.
He is right to hide because this just may be his day:
I can't see how one can be both a genuine Buddhist and a genuine Christian - I see them as very, very different. Christianity is based on concepts of original sin, salvation, repentance, punishment, good and evil and belief in a 'god' figure. - these concepts are not compatible with Buddhism as I understand it. to me 'Christian Buddhist' is an oxymoron.
@jayne...see Thomas Merton
@msac123 are you wavering between both religions? On the papers, you probably have to make your position clear, but if you feel you like a bit of both, why do you feel you have to fall under one label or the other?
I mean, who should care what you choose to believe?
Buddha wasn't a God, but a man. An enlightened man, but a man.
Regarding religion, the important thing, in my opinion, is to choose one that allows/endorses/requires its members to contribute to humanity in a positive way.
Buddha taught us that suffering is the reason why humans are unhappy - suffering caused by craving more specifically, the suffering that results when that craving is unfulfilled.
Fear is an important aspect of this suffering. We (humans) worry about dangers as we (in general) have a pretty hard-wired self-preservation instinct. Fear is hard to overcome due to it being a primal and powerful emotion - possibly the first one most human beings feel after being slapped by the doctor after birth. Or, maybe just in general as we're literally in an unfamiliar and unknown world after we're born.
Christianity, via the Bible and its "flock," relies, on occasion, the use of fear to encourage obedience of its rules, or to "attract" new converts. About 10 years ago, Christians would come knocking on my door, or stand by and watch their 9 year old children as they did it, (That's true, happened to me) and tell whomever opened the door that if they (I) wasn't saved, they would go to Hell.
The Buddha tells us to free ourselves from fear; the Bible tells us to be "God-fearing" Christians.
I do believe it is possible to accept/believe Christianity without fear, I just don't think its very likely.
Christians tell us that we've got to believe Jesus died for our sins (when they're not claiming "the Jews killed our Lord") or you will burn in a pit of fire for all of eternity.
Some Christians count the acceptance of this belief as being part of their "morals and values."
There is a "hell realm" in Buddhism - however, one is not bound for eternity, though admittedly it can be quite a long time. This is why Good Karma is important. One's length of stay in Buddhist Hell is determined by their Bad Karma - being in Buddhist Hell DOESN'T last forever.
Somewhat...contradictory, yes?
Having written all that (thinking out loud I guess) - I realize I'm not wise enough to answer your question, but maybe I can point you in the right direction:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=Robert+Kennedy+Zen&rh=i:aps,k:Robert+Kennedy+Zen
Robert Kennedy is a Catholic Zen Master. I suspect hes probably tackled this issue once or twice.
Good Luck!
Yes. Thomas Merton the Christian Monk who adhered to Buddhist principles.
Not "Thomas Merton the Buddhist Monk who adhered to Christian principles."
The way he did it - it can be done, wholeheartedly.
Not the other way around.
Ditto-likewise....
We can't even come up with a single concise definition of what a Buddhist is, so I think it's impossible to assert the above. By virtue of our many posts on the matter, a Buddhist can be just about anything.
I know a Buddhist who's a committed Mormon. I know Buddhists who are observant Jews.
So a Buddhist adhereing to Christianity? Sure. Absolutely. No Problem.
Sometime in the future, in the west, we'll probably have a Christianity/Buddhism hybrid, leaning towards Christianity. Proabably strongly resembling Jodo Shinshu. The same thing happened in Tibet when Buddhism met Bon.
I agree with Aunt Fede on this one.
I'm not saying you can't be both....I still don't understand how it's done.
How to go from "in here" to "out there". Some of the 'beliefs' are totally contradictory to each other. My teacher encourages it and often mixes the two in talks and I find it hard to stay on track and think the comparisons are far reaching sometimes.
Perhaps it is only possible if we put beliefs to one side, and concentrate on upayas. ( Skillful means )
Thomas Merton spent time with the great yogi Chatral Rinpoche who gave him instruction in Dzogchen.
'We have no problem with each other' said Chatral Rinpoche. 'When we sit together the silence is the same '.
I'm not talking about getting along. Or learning to sit/pray with each other in the room.
I'm also not going to sit here and drop names and act like that's the all to end all.
Been there....done that. Have a good day...I'm off to work.
I'm not one of those Buddhist Christians, but I can tell you that Christians are highly diverse in their beliefs. Some even believe that Hell doesn't exist, or that it's not necessary to accept Jesus in order to go to Heaven (which I would've thought is the singular defining characteristic of Christianity)... and it's quite possible for people to create an amalgamation of various beliefs (or religions) without seeing a real problem with it.
I'm a "Skeptic Humanist Buddhist", but I haven't had any lasting problems with that combination.
Neither was Chatral Rinpoche talking about just getting along, or learning to sit with each other.
He was adopting the Guru role without requiring Merton to 'convert' to anything.
Just as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu does ..and he has Christian monks and nuns among his students.
Find you somebody to play with.
(walks of)
I have a fondness for both Buddhism and the Contemplative, Mystical tradition of Christianity. I don't find it necessary to claim to be Buddhist or Christian or both or neither. I read both Buddhist and Christian literature with a critical eye.
There are some very basic teachings of Christianity (that are often overlooked by popular Christianity) that are of great value. Love your neighbor (and your enemy) as yourself. Included in this message is to love yourself. With all the self-proclaimed Christians constantly babbling away, the Christian message gets very convoluted. The way many of them speak, an outsider might think that Jesus taught the virtues of bigotry and capitalism. I also think that the idea of the Christian punishment/reward system of Heaven and Hell, as it is commonly understood, is not as straightforward and clear-cut as many believe. I believe that "The Kingdom of God is Within You" is getting at the same idea as the fact that we all have Buddha Nature.
Certainly, there are differences between the theologies. To name the big one, the focus on God in Christianity vs. no mention of a God in Buddhism. I have not found this difference to be of much significance for myself. I am willing to admit that I don't know if there is a God or not. I also am not sure if it changes much of anything, either way. Even within Christianity, God is considered unfathomable. How can one claim that "there is this Thing that cannot be defined or understood but It exists and if you don't believe in it then you are a heathen!?" I think that kind of insistence on "belief" is missing the mark.
This is a topic that could have (and has had) books written about it. Long books. In my post, I feel that I have only scratched the surface of what I want to say on the matter and at the same time I have rambled on for far too long.
The problem with that viewpoint is that you are talking about the kind of Christian religion that was practiced in the past, not the kind of Christian religion that is practiced as much in the present. You're talking about: "Give me that old time religion, give me that old time religion, Give me that old time religion, It's good enough for me...It was good for Hebrew children, it was good for Hebrew children, It was good for Hebrew children, And it's good enough for me. It was tried in the fiery furnace, It was tried in the fiery furnace, It was tried in the fairy furnace, It's good enough for me."
About 4 times I year I go to a local mainstream Methodist Church where some of my friends attend...very religious friends. They never read anything from the Old Testament. I thought at first it must be because I went so seldom and just coincidentally didn't attend on days when they read from the Old Testament. So I asked a couple of them who attend services not only every week, but also supplemental services about it. Their response" "Well, I never thought about it, but you're right. We only have readings from the New Testament."
My other closes friends right now are Catholics. He a former seminarian, she a former nun. They never miss a weekly Mass or day of Holy Obligation, and consider themselves devout Catholics. She doesn't believe in Confession and doesn't do it. They disagree wholeheartedly with the official Church position on any number of topics -- birth control, abortion, just to name two. They don't believe that only Catholics are in good grace.
And those are examples of what is changed about the Christian religion. People across the United States, and elsewhere are dumping rigid Christianity for a self-realized (for wont of a better term) version of Christianity, and it ain't that old time religion. I would go so far as to say that what many, many "Christians" today practice is philosophical Christ-ianity.
And, **with all due respect -- and I really mean that **-- your position is just as far along the spectrum of Buddhist belief in one direction as the old time Christian religion is in the other direction. It is the all-too-common viewpoint that only my religion is right that leads to the gulf between religions, and cultures, and societies; that leads to such differences that wars are sometimes fought; that leads to an inability to find peace on earth...and isn't that odd considering that peace is supposed to be such a large part of what Christianity and Buddhism are about.
I remember an interview with Anwar Sadat in which he pointed out that people of strong religious viewpoints spend far too much time pointing out the differences between their religions, and not enough time looking for common ground.
And, BTW, who just a short time ago in another thread said, "Be concerned, by all means. But don't condemn, and don't be so attached that it consumes."
Well said @vinlyn.
In Vajrayana the native Tibetans are almost always far more appreciative of Christianity, particularly the Contemplative traditions, than converts to Buddhism are.
Ah yes, @Citta! The attitude of converts. Sometimes the most rabid of religion-ists.
There are some forms of Christianity that don't relate fear to retribution or punishment, but rather to separation from communion with God and His love through performance of non-virtuous actions (sins) where the mind moves in an outward direction and loses itself in created things, entertains proud thoughts, and considers vain things. Hell would be considered separation from God but not a location, and eternity as the simultaneous presence of all time (past, present, future) and not meaning lasting forever in a linear sense
In addition, there are many different prayer practices other than gathering in a circle and holding hands and singing praise songs. Some forms of Christianity teach a form of silent prayer where the mind is stilled and united with the heart or spirit.
Me too. I do not have time to explore the depths of the Buddhist Ocean and therefore, for example will never study the Philokalia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philokalia
Personally I find immense value in the contemplative tradition, which goes inward in all traditions. Form is after all empty but that emptiness gives the form . . .
The forms of Christianity I'm referring to are very ancient and they do use the Old Testament.
And they are of the contemplative and mystical traditions, one of which came the Philokalia, specifically Eastern Orthodoxy.
(I hate this new 'quote' mechanism!! It doesn't really function as it should!!)
Ah you mean the one that puts the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit on equal footing, not the current dumbed-down version - actually seen yesterday being preached in our town square - which told us Christ was the way, his father was the destiny, the Holy Spirit was the leader of the OT believers, and that we should honour sundays, (not the Sabbath, as is more accurately stated....)
Making Religion so saccharin-sweet it leaves me nauseous...
No, actually, I'm not talking about that at all.... More hippy-hippy shake, or Gospel happy-clappy claptrap....
You're missing the point.
perhaps forgetting that I spent a good 40 years in close allegiance with the R.Catholic church.
I am happy to accept a vast raft of the teachings Christianity propounds.
I just cannot dedicate myself to practising BOTH callings with equal fervour, particularly as I don't believe in God.
There's nothing wrong with taking lessons from all manner and types of teachings, no matter what their origin.
I just can't dedicate myself to two callings, simultaneously.
And I believe that's what the OP was referring to.
I do not despise, judge, criticise or condemn the close affiliation people of other religions have with Buddhism, and Vice-versa. I'm merely responding to the first post, in that I cannot see how BOTH callings can be a dedicated practice.
Ah...that last quote...was that me?
No, it's the original post in the thread, the one that began this discussion.
Ah, ok...thought it didn't sound like me. :-)
Even you don't sound like you, sometimes....:D but that's a design fault we all share, I would guess!
When that happens I just slap myself in the face and say, "Thanks, I needed that!"
That's a brilliant solution. I don't know why I didn't think of that. Slapping you in the face will soon set me straight!!
I saw that one coming.
And you never ducked.
:clap:
I'm so proud of you.....
And the other cheek ?
My thinking is that there are several levels at which any religion can be followed/practiced with varying levels of compatibility at each level.
Like one level could be a rigid, dogmatic level where every word is taken literally. Doesn't seem like there is room for more than one religion here.
I see a level where someone is looking primarily for wisdom and guidance so they can lead a happier and healthier life, this seems to be where most of us here are.
Then I think there is a level where someone wants to delve deeply into spirituality/mysticism, metaphysics comes more into play here. Maybe there is some room for compatibility, at least I don't think there is any hostility. But when diving in I think its probably going to be much better if one follows a single path.