Karma, as part of the Niyamas: Why 'bad' things happen to 'good' people and visa versa??
The_Dharma_Farmer
Explorer
Hey guys, in spite of the snappy and REALLY attractive title (not), I have been doing some thinking recently...
I am having a cancer scare, and some uninformed smart-ass on fb decided to try the "if you are a Buddhist, how come Karma seems to hate you" line of thinking... Yeah, sensitive, right?
Anyway, regardless of how I may or may not have appreciated his redundant comments, it did get me thinking... I know, not healthy, right?
As usual, I put it into an article and hit 'publish'... My thinking was essentially along the lines of the Niyamas and how Karma Niyama activity only governs actions of volitional choices we make, and that of course there are other factors too which arrise from other Niyamas... Utu, bija etc...
Here is the article, but please don't feel obliged to read it... If you are interested in my thoughts, or are looking to kick someone when they are down and scared, it's gonna be a great opportunity either way... ;-)
thedharma-farmer.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/the-laws-of-karma-explained-meaning-of.html
Just checking my understanding against that of some of the wise old Dharma-owls here... Thanks guys...
Bit scared, bit nervous, but working with it ok... Also wondering how other traditions view the issue of The Dharma Niyama in relation to rebirth... Do other practitioners in other traditions even think about it that much?
Yours, eager to learn and to share ideas in a friendly atmosphere,
In Metta and gratitude,
Jay x
P.s Searched for a a pre-existing thread on the Niyamas and Karma, the progressive order of conditionality in the Dharma Niyama etc but couldn't find one that seemed to be answering my questions etc...
Comments
I think the article is well-researched and factual.
I am in agreement, with regard to kamma and it's non-judgmental quality.
It's a good article, but above all, I sincerely hope the scare turns out to be just that.
A scare.
With much metta, i wish you well.
((Hugs)).
Aw... wells up
Thank you :'-) hugs xxx
I'm probably not the best person to answer this, as I do not understand it well but I have been thinking about it lately. First off though, I am sorry to hear of your scare. I hope that things turn out ok but know you will draw strength in new found ways if you find you have to deal with the worst.
I think that we tend to get hung up on the "I" part of "I didn't do anything wrong to deserve cancer/paralysis/whatever." Note that I am in no way saying anyone deserves these things. But considering that point of view, it makes more sense when you look at it simply from a deeper mind place rather than our attachment to our selves in this body. It never seemed to me that there is really a cosmic force that truly keeps track of our deeds, but that that part of our minds that is reborn is what keeps track, and that that part is unbiased and unemotional and unattached to the body of the previous or current lives. So it makes sense to me that that mind essence/whatever you wanna call it, would, in effect, choose a certain life in order to work through karma accrued in a previous life. That is just my thoughts on things, I realize it doesn't necessarily fit within Buddhism very neatly, lol.
Our youngest son is a type 1 diabetic. Right now he is only 5, so despite his diabetes he is a normal little boy. That could change any time though, with the risks associated. It is hard for me, as his mom, to consider that "he" could have done something wrong in his previous lives to have to deal with diabetes in this life. But I don't know his previous lives or his path and intention in this life. So it seems at least plausible that that part of mind, in some way, chose this life for reasons I certainly don't understand and he probably doesn't, either.
I think it is fine to believe in karma. But we shouldn't thrust that view on anyone else. It's like believing in hell. That's fine for a personal belief, but it is unacceptable to throw that on someone else.
In this thread, I mean Karma in the acurate and undeniable meaning of "Karma-Vipaka" - conscious actions have consequences, even if they only affect the person that caries out the action, on a subconscious level. I mean, that's what meditation is, right? Causing a chain reaction of mental events via the progressive, spiral nature of conditionality... Surely no-one here is going to refute that if I drop a pencil, the pencil falls? energy which was once heald as potential energy gets transferred into sounds and heat as it hits the floor, and possibly breaks the pencil too - that Karma. Not cultural karma, rebirth etcetera, but simply the teachings of the 5 niyamas. I don't see how Karma-Vipaka can be disputed, ever... Merit, rebirth, past life karma... All debatable, but not what I am talking about or Interested in ATM... not my bag, lol! ;-) x
@karasti I am sorry to hear about your little boy, I wish I could comment, but I'm kinda undecided about the past life thing... I am open to it, and eager to hear other peoples thoughts, but as I said in the post, it does not logically follow that ALL the events which befall us are our own fault... I'm pretty sure the Buddha rejected that notion... I am not the man to ask, by any stretch, but for what it's worth, I certainly wouldn't think that it was something he did... That would mess with my head too much!!
Hugs xx
Karma is a mental thing. AFAIK. The pencil dropping is not an example of karma. Karma needs volition which inanimate objects don't have.
No, my point is I chose to pick it up :-)
@The_Dharma_Farmer There's impersonal causation and personal causation. They aren't really separate, but for the purposes of practice they are separated into general causality and "karma". Karma describes how your thoughts, speech and actions plant seeds that ripen in the future as either good or bad fruits; so it's very specific to what you, yourself, cause. Unless you think you've done something to cause cancer, such as smoking (carcinogens), that's not part of your karma. It's probably part of your biology, but not your karma.
Imagine there is a perfect Buddha of the future, generating metta for your path towards Buddhahhood. Bring that into the present. How you react to a scare is now part of your potential.
Hope it is nothing.
Gotcha, sorry I misunderstood your question!
As far as what I said about my son and those thoughts, I agree. I don't think everything that ever happens is the result of past life or current life karma. I just thin we have to consider it is a possibility even if if feels uncomfortable from our current life viewpoint. Some people find it a horribly offensive idea, but looking past the suffering of the current time/life I think the offense can be left behind.
Unfortunately, part of the way we live makes us more likely to suffer cancer or a whole host of other things. I don't mean necessarily things we intentionally do (like smoking or excessive drinking) but just the environment we live in with so many chemicals at every turn. Everything we do, what we eat (I'm not talking the vegetarian debate there), even what we think, changes the switches in our DNA that can make us more susceptible to diseases. It's quite a fascinating field to read up on.
Thanks guys for all your advice and support, it is much appreciated!
@karasti - Phew! I have spoken to some people who really get themselves wound up into a tizz (I am so British) at the thought that everything that happens to them is the DIRECT result of actions in a past life...
Yeah, Thanks for that @AldrisTorvalds thats kind of you to remind me... Luckily I have been studying the Niyamas for a bit but it's been great to back to them recently and rediscover my love for them and their far-reaching implications, even if opinion is divided as to whether to credit them to the historical Buddha or early scholastics who compiled the Abidharma.
I've spent half of my life smoking and drinking heavily before I came across the Dharma in a meaningful way... In some sense, if the tests come back and I am seriously ill, then at least I won't be bitter that I didn't do anything to deserve it, in a perverse kinda logic... Seriously... I am trying to put myself in a win-win... Really @lobster you are an angel, so kind and considerate... I am trying to bring a lot of mindful kindness to whatever arises... Just had a gorgeous 2hr bath listening to some talks from my teacher on the matter of Karma and Rebirth... I have been asked to write about and publish another article, this one on Rebirth in the next five days at the behest of a Sangha member so at least I have plenty of stuff to keep me occupied...
Interestingly, it's not death, cessation of bodily or mental functions that upsets me, but how hard it would hit my family, having just only lost my big sister 12 weeks ago to bowel, lung and liver cancer... I'll be fine, but they are reductionists and materialists.. It's completely messed them up...
Eh up, they don't call it Samsara for nothing ;-)
Feeling deep love, Metta and Katannuta for you all right now, thanks so much xx
Even if things you did contribute to your health, I don't think that means you deserve it. My grandmother (who just turned 88) smoked for more than 60 years until quitting 2 years ago after a long hospital stay. She suffers greatly with COPD as a result, it limits her ability to even dress herself, but she is happy and still in her home and still doing what she loves. But regardless of her decades of smoking, she doesn't deserve somehow to be ill. It just is what it is. She doesn't see it as punishment, so why should anyone else? I will add you to my tonglen meditation, if that is ok with you. It's nice to see you in your photo, and I quite like your altar!
Just wanted to say good luck with the tests mate hope it all goes well.
you sow what you reap, that is what budha taught.
why do bad things happen to good people?
how do you know these 'good' people didnt do anything bad in the past?
karma does not accord with what you wished it was.
it is just a natural law.
It's all well and good until people start actually thinking that way. Some people do, moreso in the East than the West, and would blame poor and starving children for their own circumstances. Hinduism even has this kind of thinking built into it with the caste system. A child who dies because of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome didn't deserve it; that's not their karma, that's biology and a tragedy. We need to be moved by compassion, not by judgment or beliefs about people's past lives. The assumption should be on innocence in any case, not on guilt... not all things that happen to people are because of their own actions.
Here is what the Buddha had to say about kamma and the reason why it is best to keep to the underlying principle but don't even try to fully comprehend it. It's complicated. It is also the reason why the best option is to put an end to kamma altogether ie. the N8FP.
"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? The** intention right there to abandon this kamma** that is dark with dark result... this kamma that is bright with bright result... this kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."
— AN 4.232
Indeed.
Some parts are simple. Doing good on the whole works out better. Who suspected? You iz smart!
We are ripples, together we are a wave, in an ocean we are . . . the depths and the drops that turn into clouds, rain and rivers, cycling through . . . resonating with water . . .
I'm not going to argue that past life karma is the cause of all our pain or pleasure in this life. But even if it were that wouldn't justify the way people are condemned or blamed for their suffering. We don't know the full extent of someone's suffering, for example there are disabled people who live on the streets of Calcutta and there are disabled people that live in mansions with servants to care for their needs. Maybe that suffering person also has the karma for someone to help them out of their troubles.
When I spent some time in Dharamsala there was one leper who was always around, he had an artificial leg but it was a bad fit and it would cause him trouble to wear it. One reaction could be to sit back and say it was his karma, too bad. What some of the westerners who lived there did was organize a fundraiser to get him a new leg. So maybe it was his karma from a previous life that caused his situation, but he also had the karma to be helped.
Also, for me at least, I don't feel any judgment against anyone as being a 'bad' person for having negative karma. Compassion and understanding are also part of Buddhism and to divorce karma from those doesn't really encapsulate the Buddhist view of karma.
I think, too, that a lot of us westerners still hold a bit of a wrong idea of karma when used simply. Sometimes now i find when my non Buddhist friends say "I hope you get shot, too, that's karma!!" I want to shake my head at them. But I think it's important to separate karma as a Buddhist term/concept from karma as something someone deserves. It's like saying "I hope God strikes you down!!" as if we have any control over it. We can't wish bad karma on someone, whatever happens is something that is a result of their actions at some point (not everything that happens, hopefully you know what I mean) but it's not with a sense of revenge or negative emotion or other such things attached to it. It's just the natural course of things.
As a general and vague concept, I can believe in karma. The general concept makes sense.
And then I see 20 different people give a dozen different explanations of karma, and I think: gee, this is too vague for me to just accept it.
I'm still open-minded.
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Is this a Buddha selfie? ..
.. Love it! hahaha
Karma-Vipaka, as taught by most traditions, is in fact the expression of conditioned co-production on merely one level of operation, that of ethical agency :-) it is described as one of Five Niyamas.
The Hindu concept of Karma is very different.
The immutable law of Karma-Vipaka, as we really aught to refer to it, translates as "action-ripening" and states that a volitional action will result in an effect, either physical or mental, or both ie expressions and further causal arisings within the other niyamas (citta, utu, bija etc). It's just causal arising pertaining to the world of willed action, ethical responsibility. This is why the Buddha expressed it as ethics-meditation-wisdom :-)
I find it's the subsequent cultural interpretations and later classification of Karma, which differs from tradition (I think) is where it gets a bit "fuzzy", but I'm sure we can all agree that the actual concept of "Karma-Vipaka" as sound.
Sadly, when we say "karma", we automatically have to deal with a whole heap of confusion and misunderstanding of the word in popular culture. To deny the basic tenants of "Karma-Vipaka" is to deny pratitya-samutpada... Which as far as I am concerned is the fundamental expression and tenant of the Dharma, and completely axiomatic with being a Buddhist :-) FNT, N8FP - both expressions of conditioned co-production, or dependant origination. When we practice, we see this clearly :-) otherwise, we wouldn't practice in the first place, lol! Rock on dudes xx
@Vastmind just me at home on the cushions dude :-) I think that was my morning sit - thanks for the love, we should totally open up and share our shrine-selfies on another thread. Makes this forum more real I think, but that's just me. Big love x
I'm a dudette. ..
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I often start altar/shrine threads, but I think people may be shy about sharing them. ??
The selfie? Well...we had a thread on that not too long ago....you be the judge...
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/20892/what-is-this
Bows
My lady... :-) apologies!
Doffs cap in contrition...
Ace, will check it out :-) x
OK...I like you!
Pay attention fellas, we got someone who knows what they're doin'....lolololol
Beginners manners, Zen manners... ;-) x
@The_Dharma_Farmer : Forgive my ignorance, I am in no danger of being called a wise ol' Dharma owl anytime soon, nor do I want to kick you when you're down but I did have two thoughts I'd like to share:
First, I am sorry that you are going through this and I truly hope you can feel that cyber or not, you or not going through this alone. I can bet that you have more than a few who will be keeping you in their thoughts - and I can guarantee that you'll have one.
Second, while the technical names for the different types of karma are lost on me, I do believe in karma. I don't, however, believe that time is linear. Whether my second supposition is correct or not, it has helped me to accept certain things that have happened to me because I am able to consider the possibility that some past ego-nature did not do anything to cause this - but some future ego-nature will. When I consider the two possibilities (past or future) I become much less attached to the 'I' who acted in a manner that made this karma manifest.
This is interesting reading:
"And what is the source and origin of kamma? Contact is its source and origin. [Contact at the six sense spheres: the eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodily tactile sense objects, and mind or mental phenomena.]
"And what is the diversity of kamma? There is kama to be experienced in hell; there is kamma to be experienced in the realm of afflicted spirits; there is kamma to be experienced in the human world; and there is kamma to be experienced in the deva world. This is called the diversity of kamma.
"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma, I say, is threefold: [to be experienced] in this very life, or in the [next] rebirth, or on some subsequent occasion. This is called the result of kamma.
"And what, bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma? With the cessation of contact there is cessation of kamma.
"This noble eightfold path is the way leading to the cessation of kamma, namely, right view, right thought (intention), right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration."
"When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple thus understands kamma, the source and origin of kamma, the diversity of kamma, the result of kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the way leading to the cessation of kamma, he understands this penetrative spiritual life to be the cessation of kamma."
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From here: [5] onwards.
Also this explanation:
Every volitional action, except that of a Buddha or of an Arahant, is called Kamma. The Buddhas and Arahants do not accumulate fresh Kamma as they have eradicated ignorance and craving, the roots of Kamma.
Kamma is action and Vipaka, fruit or result, is its reaction. It is the cause and effect. Like a seed is Kamma. Vipaka (effect) is like the fruit arising from the tree. As we sow, we reap somewhere and sometime in this life or in a future birth. What we reap today is what we have sown either in the present or in the past.
Kamma is the law in itself, and it operates in its own field without the intervention of an external, independent ruling agency.
Inherent in Kamma is the potentiality of producing its due effect. The cause produces the effect; the effect explains the cause. The seed produces the effect; the fruit explains th3e seed; such is their relationship. Even so are Kamma and its effect; 'the effect already blooms in the cause."
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extract from "A Manual of Abhidhammattha Sangaha" translated by Narada Maha Thera (Chapter V, page 255-6).
@Lincoln: (This quote facility stinks!!)
Awesome @federica - I feel totally very much reassured that I have understood Karma/Kamma correctly, although I am embarrassed to have gotten the Pali and the Sanskrit renderings the wrong way around...! :-) Kamma-Vipaka in Pali, Karma-Vipaka in Sanskrit.... For an extra 10 points, does anyone know why the discourses were first recorded in Pali, and not in Sanskrit, even though Sanskrit predates it? Silly geek that I am, but I am quite the keen amateur linguist and etymologist, lol :-)
@The_Dharma_Farmer Originally it was all passed down orally (the monks/nuns had to memorize everything). This was like 500 BC after all. All schools of Buddhism claim to have been taught by the Buddha, whether or not the material actually came from Siddhartha Gautama, so it's probably going to save you a headache if you don't think about it too much.
The passages quoted (particularly the first) were broken up nicely, into 'easily digestible morsels', with spaces between the paragraphs, which rendered them both easier to read, and easier to memorise.
This is why so many of the suttas are so darned repetitive; it was an aid to memorising them. As @AldisTorvalds points out, this was the original method of transmission; memorising great tracts of suttas, rendering them to memory, and passing them on orally.
Actually by far a better way of doing so, than writing.
I know this to be true for myself, because I was listening to a song I had not heard for many years, on the radio the other day, and i recalled the lyrics word for word.
Yet, I began to read a library book this past Monday, and didn't realise until I was half-way through it that - "hang on.... I think I've read this already....haven't I?" (A quick skip to the last few pages - always dangerous, I admit - proved me correct....)
Yep, both correct, and hilarious @federica - I have done the same thing, although I put if down to having spent ten years (then add 7) as a stoner ;-)
I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure that Pali was chosen because at the time of the first assembly (approximately 100-300 years after the Buddhas Parinirvanna) it had become the common tongue of many parts of Northern India, whereas Sanskrit was spoken by the Aryas, only the Brahmins and some of the Kshatriyas of the highest levels echelons of society. In short it was as close to a 'language of the common man/woman' as they had, and it would have been very similar to whichever language the Buddha himself spoke, although Pali itself, exactly as we know it, was unlikely to have been the EXACT language of the Buddha... So if anyone says "the Buddha said THIS..." It's worth bearing it in mind that no one can be certain of this, factually speaking. All scholars concede that that the language recorded in the Pali cannon would be identical in spirit, but as to the letter.... ;-) hehe!
That's why I find it frustrating when we use words like "desire" in relation to the FNT, as the word in the Pali cannon is 'drsti', which literally means 'thirst' - and I feel this has subtly different connotations than 'desire'... There is something desperate about thirst.... You don't 'thirst' to see your friends happy, for example :-) xx
@Citta was it you that was talking recently about the language Buddha first spoke? Do you know why the discourses were first recorded in Pali instead of Sanksrit?
Was Pali actually chosen, or was it just that the first people who started writing things down happened to be Pali?
@Jason would be able to give us a good overview. He's pretty hot on this..
Please verify, but I take my information from a seminar given by someone who speaks fluent Pali and has studied it for his 70 years studying, living and teaching the dharma as a monk in India, so I am pretty certain of my assertions. I'm pretty much certain that Sanskrit was not chosen because it was and still is considered a more socially elitist language. I imagine there would have been a lot of people arguing for the cannon to be recorded in Sanskrit for that reason. I know that Sanskrit pre-dates Pali by some way, and hence it is the primary liturgical language of Hinduism, and as a lingua Franca in Jainism, Hinduism and Buddhism. It originated around 1500 BCE as Vedic Sanskrit, and seems probable that the Buddha himself spoke a or several dialects of Middle Indo-Aryan... Pali was also referred to as Magadhan, the Gangetic area the Buddha taught in, interestingly, so it's fair to assume that whatever he spoke had a high degree of mutual intelligibility with both Pali and Sanskrit... As someone said, you can really lose yourself in the conjecture, but what I think is important to remember is to read and practice the scriptures with awareness of the spirit, and not just the letter :-) x
Here's a brief overview of my understanding of the language issue for anyone interested.
@Jason thank you so much, we are very lucky to have your wealth of knowledge to check against :-) I'm happy to see that for once I am on the right track, and posting increasingly accurate statements ;-) x