Newbie to Meditation - I have a MOB question.
Aspiring_Buddhist
Seeker of the Buddha WithinWA Veteran
I'm a newbie to meditating, and I have a Mindfulness of Breathing question.
Firstly, I lie down to meditate. When I sit up I spend most of time trying to be comfortable - I do more shifting of position then I do meditation. When I lay down, I don't need to shift around or anything.
I close my eyes and just think about breathing in long, breathing out long. Works good, even better when I get to the point of "smiling effortlessly." Nothing forced, just a nice smile of well-being/contentment.
I've noticed that I can't seem to get past 8-10 minutes. At around the 8 minute point, my body kind of...twitches? My arms, legs, hands, feet, and head move at the same time. I'm not sure if this is a subtle desire of mine to move, or if it just happens.
I was wondering if anyone else has had this issue. I'd like to go the whole 15 minutes, but I can't seem to get there.
Any advice would be great. Thanks for your time.
-AB
Comments
1st piece of advice...don't lie down to meditate.
There are several reasons for this..not least because at some point in the hopefully not-too- distant future you will go on retreat..and at the very least you might take part in group meditation..in either scenario lying down will not be an option..
So you might as well get used to that.
I've recently started Mindfulness of Breathing meditation and I find it hard to get past 10 minutes as well. I twitch a little too, but more often I seem to get suddenly restless and lose my concentration. I don't know if its a common stage that everyone has to push through or not though.
It is..its probably universal ..and yes push through it, but with persistence rather than force
Softly determined.
I'm with Citta. Meditate sitting up.
Nothing wrong with shifting around.
One the questions I like to resond with is, have you been given one - on - one, person-to-person meditation instruction, yet?
There will be plenty of people here, who will give you all sorts of advice, but I, for one am reluctant to advise because I don't know what instruction you've recieved and I'm reluctant to interfere with that instruction.
If you're trying to do Shamatha, you don't think about breathing, you just watch it and rest.
That's one of the reasons for having a good instructor who can observe your practice and help.
I echo the comments on sitting up. You don't have to twist your legs into a knot, but your butt and shoulders should be lined up.
And what's wrong with ten good minutes of meditation? If you get twitchy after that pause, get up and walk around the room, and then do it again.
Another point of view: The object of meditation is not to bliss out or feel good or find some relief. Yes, all that a more like it is seductive, but meditation is a way of addressing your whole life and, as anyone might rightly notice, a whole life is full of ups and downs. Why should meditation be any different?
In point of fact, running into the hiccups -- the points, for example, where anyone might start twitching or their mind might go bonkers with one thought after another -- is more deserving of our thanks: This is where life's rubber hits the road; this is true stuff -- the very stuff the put us on the cushion in the first place; the stuff whose impact needs to be addressed ... that's addressed, not shunned. If all anyone sought in meditation were relief or bliss, hell, we could all run out and buy some pretty pills.
It's OK to imagine that meditation is a matter of relief ... for starters. But a certain determination is called for if there is to be some chance of avoiding the honey-trap of relief or bliss. Erect the spine, sit still, shut up, and focus the mind. Sit when it's blissful, sit when it's twitchy, sit when it's serene, sit when it's insufferable chit-chat, sit short, sit long ... sit when sitting, sit when standing ... exercise a little determination, a little kindness, a little patience. Sit when it's "working;" sit when "it's not working."
Bit by bit, things are no longer so extraordinary. Bit by bit things are not so ordinary. Bit by bit ... sit.
I agree with the others about sitting up. Your body has been programmed all it's life to prepare for sleep when you are laying down. So when you lay down, it signals your body to start the resting process in a manner to prepare you to sleep. You could perhaps lay down in a way to relax you, and then do sitting meditation.
When you are setting a goal to meditation for 15 minutes, you are setting an expectation and then when you don't meet it you end up disappointed instead of appreciating whatever you have. Starting out, it is often best to start slow. When you can sit comfortably for 8 minutes, then increase it to 9 or 10, and so on. I took me 3 years to work up to the point that I can sit daily for a half hour.
When you are sitting, what exactly are you doing? There are some ways to alleviate the most common discomforts that cause you to shift around a lot. Also, you could sit in a chair.
You could try mixing sitting meditation with walking meditation. We do this at retreats and I find it quite nice. Walk, sit, walk, sit.
Lastly, let go of the expectation
I also have a hard time meditating a long time because of my anti-psychotic medicines.
I would just do 8 or 10 and not feel bad.
OK, alright. I meditate lying down! Well, I sit too. I meditate on my back, on my side, or on my butt. The issue about upright meditation is that the posture means something, it is a communication to your whole being that you are alert and not preparing for sleep. I've not had a whole lot of trouble falling asleep lying down, in fact, I've had equal sleepiness sitting or reclining. I think MOST people when they get horizontal get horny or sleepy, but I was Roman in a previous life (ha ha) and 'recline' to use my laptop, crochet or read, and often to eat.
I do believe, fwiw, in seeking as comfortable a position as humanly possible so that my body is not so distracting. There are a multitude of sitting benches, cushions, and enough kinds of support pillows to prop you up in whatever position that allows you physical comfort and impresses your being with alertness/readiness for some serious meditation.
It's totally OK to move and twitch! Just move and twitch mindfully
. "I am now twitching. I am shifting my buns. My leg is shivering. And now my toes are cramping. I am now feeling irritation that I can't sit still. Where do I feel the aversion to this irritation in my body? What does it feel like?" and so on. This is actually VERY valuable meditation material! Mindfulness meditation upon the body is one of the pillars of mindfulness meditation.
I think you are doing great, and your questions are everyone's questions when beginning. Good for you and your commitment!
Chill.
Breath.
Twitch.
Sit.
Walk.
. . . I think we have a plan . . .
I think lying down is fine. I do it a lot. Meditation lying down seems no worse than meditation sitting. Nontraditional perhaps, but works for me. And being a Buddhist in Western culture is nontraditional to begin with, so why allow a traditionalist trap to rule our practice?
@Aspiring_Buddhist Here's a website you might make use of, a meditation posture workshop: http://www.wildmind.org/posture
My own advice would be to be comfortable, but not so comfortable that you're falling asleep. You don't even need to sit cross-legged; sitting straight in a chair (or even lying on your back) can work. What's important is to keep your spine relatively straight and be able to breathe freely. Eyes open or eyes closed doesn't matter, though eyes closed can lead to sleepiness or getting fixated on feelings of bliss (not the point of MOB meditation). If you keep your eyes open, just sorta let your field of vision "be" (unfocused).
I think it's fine to say whatever works for you, works, and to do it. But just because something is more traditional doesn't mean it is a trap. There are some good and valid reasons why it is recommended to do it seated (in my opinion) but it certainly doesn't work for everyone in which case you have to do whatever works. Meditating is more important than exactly the manner you do it.
On a side note, I suffer with occasional horrible sciatica on my left side, and spending more time on my meditation cushion has helped it immensely. Once my meditation is done, I still use my cushion. , I do my reading and studying on it and even use it for watching movies, and so on. Huge help. I assume largely because it keeps my hips more open and because it builds up a little core strength over time versus slouching on the normal furniture.
Sorry, karasti, you're right. "Trap" is a cliche and not the right word to use here.
My broader point is that Westerners drawn to Buddhism are probably less swayed by tradition and ritual than the population at large, so this subset might also be less swayed that meditation should be done sitting because that's the traditional way. You didn't say that in your post, but it certainly has been said.
For me, I find sights and sounds distracting, so I like it quiet and I close my eyes. Other more accomplished people have no need to do that. So I'm not saying anyone else should lie down, only that it's OK to if that's what works.
I am especially intrigued by the Tibetan monks studied by neuroscience professor Richard Davidson. These monks were sent to the US by the Dalai Lama to meditate while lying in an fMRI scanner, and they produced brain waves that startled the researchers to the point they thought their equipment was faulty until they began to see the same consistent patterns among all the monks. Even deliberate attempts to distract them while they were lying in the scanner did not disrupt their brain waves.
"Ritual" might also be a charged word in this context, but it's not as bad as "trap."
Thank you everyone for taking the time to write here.
I should keep in mind that I am just starting out, and things rarely are perfect from the start.
I'm not dead-set against sitting meditation, I just noticed that I kept shifting around a lot, and I wasn't very comfortable. I'm over-weight and very out of shape. I find forcing myself to keep my spine upright was very uncomfortable.
Though I am proud of the fact I'm down to 289 1/2 pounds. Last year I was about 340 pounds. So I am getting there! Maybe I am just not used to sitting like that, I don't know, merely guessing.
Mainly I'm trying to focus on achieving some meditation. I would actually prefer to do it in some sensory deprivation chamber, sights/sounds distract me.
Though that could also mean I have to improve in that area.
I'm working of my "Mindfulness of Breathing" from this page: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html
Trying to take it slow - so far I am focusing on "breathing in long, breathing out long."
If you guys don't mind my asking, how were your first attempts at mediation?
There are reasons and very good ones, why Buddhist teachers in all traditions. have advocated sitting with a relaxed but straight back, and have done so for 2500 years...they might just know something about the anatomy of our more subtle systems.
It may well be that that advice will not be germane for some years after starting to practice.
At which point the processes that have been initiated will have been activated in any position.
@Aspiring_Buddhist my first attempts at meditation were almost certainly just like yours and just like everyone elses'.
The problem is we live in age where we are conditioned to expect instant success..and meditation is a set of skills that takes years to develop..like playing the piano..
Most of us stay motivated as we become aware of dukkhas more subtle aspects.
Its not a trip.
Keep at it...you wont regret it.
I'm not saying they don't have any value - I'm sorry if I came across that way. I wanted to explain how I meditate so people could give me advice; (which you and others have done wonderfully) my intent wasn't to say "I meditate this way, na-na!"
Maybe I should practice just sitting first, before trying to sit and meditate...
Thanks again for your help/input @Citta along with everyone else!
Those particular remarks were addressed more to @Steve_B @Aspiring_Buddhist..
I just forget to do the @ thing.
Actually if you do practice 'just sitting first' you might just find that you will be meditating...
I think that the less we identify with our thoughts, feelings, and body, the easier it will be for awareness and mindfuless to unfold and expand. The more we try to enclose it within our self, the more likely discomfort will arise.
If to start you find problems with keeping your spine upright, you could try sitting in a straight backed chair, or on the floor against the wall. It will get better in time. (If this is indeed something you want to do)
Also if you are sitting on the floor, make sure you are using a cushion or a pillow (or 2, depending). It is very hard to sit correctly unless your knees are lower than your hips (or as close as possible).
You could also try a meditation bench, which work really well for a lot of people I know. I can't use them because a piece of missing cartilage doesn't allow me to be on my knees for more than a minute or 2. But they seem to work quite well for people who struggle to sit cross-legged.
Meditation is a process . the objective is to observe.
Its not a question of how long you can do it.
That is just not the point . whether you do it for 5 seconds or
5 hrs , the whole idea is to bring your attention back to your
Object of meditation .
If you are restless or impatient, that is normal, just be aware of what is going on in your mind.
your craving to go on for 15 min is causing you suffering....
Suddenly remembered my first 'formal' meditation was during Judo, when I was eleven. I doubt if we did more than five or ten minutes. No doubt it was a strange thing to do . . .
You are less likely to twitch with walking meditation. So maybe explore that as part of a fifteen minute practice . . .
@Aspiring_Buddhist - Could you elaborate a bit on the twitching? Is it so distracting that you simply cannot sit in meditation any longer? Why not try to sit through it and see what happens? It might be worthwhile.
I've had experiences where I felt like bursting out laughing, but I had to keep it in (this was during a group retreat). I honestly wasn't sure if I could hold it in... but then after i sat through it, I felt a great sense of peace and relinquishment of stress.
Also, I see that you're using the Anapanasati sutta. I think when the instructions talk about breathing in/out long/short, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have to practice breathing in + out one way before moving on to the next. I think it just means to be aware of the quality of the breath (long, short, etc).
You can choose to treat bodily impulses the same as you treat your thoughts. Recognize, don't respond (ie don't move/wiggle/shift) and let go. Our tendency to always be moving, not knowing what to do with our bodies, fidgeting and so on is a response to the over busy world we live in. When you start paying attention, you'll probably find you "twitch" and fidget a lot during the day. Standing on a street corner waiting to cross? What do you do with your arms? Cross, uncross, put in pockets, take out phone for no reason, dig in purse for no reason, fidget fidget fidget. All a sense of boredom to fill every single moment with a distraction of some sort.
This is something that has been a huge work in progress for me. I have a tendency to be very fidgety. I shift a lot, bounce my legs (when I am sitting in a chair), I pick at my fingernails. I was always moving. Then I started noticing when I was doing it and treating it like a thought, as suggest by my teacher. It works quite well. I can sit cross legged on my cushion in the same position for 2-3 hours at a time during retreats or even watching a movie at home, and be fine now. The first retreat I went to, it was impossible to even accomplish for 15 minutes. Movement of body in that way is the same as movement of mind.
Well, when I reach the 8 minute point when I lay down it is almost as if my body feels a need to move. Its not so much a single twitch as I am moving as many limbs as I can. Not sure if its a conscious decision on my part or a subconscious one.
When I try to sit and meditate, I tend to "slouch" when I sit cross-legged. I've read keeping the spine straight is essential; when I meditate I notice I tend to relax and re-slouch my back, so then I spend most of my time focusing on keep my back straight.
I end up trying to move my arms around or keep re-straightening my back. I spend more time thinking about my back then I do the sutta.
I think I will start practicing sitting properly - and work my way up to sitting meditation.
I've never fallen asleep when I'm doing lying down, thankfully.
Thanks again, everyone!