Not Surprised
Chaz
The Remarkable ChazAnywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran
@Citta recently announced he was stepping back from Buddhist forum activity for awhile; this at the advice of his teacher, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu. ChNN, as he's often referred to online is a respected Dzogchen teacher who has had a number of students who are active, if not well known, on Buddhist forums.
I've been around Buddhist forums for years and based on that experience, I'm not surprised in the least, that a teacher has finally taken a stand. It would also seem that at least one other here is seeing at least some of the light.
@anataman said:
I am starting to see why Citta has been advised to take off...
I don't know of any high-ranking Dharma teachers who regularly visit or communicate via this meduim. There aren't many other teachers, either. A couple notable exceptions are Samahita and Dharmakara. I used to wonder about that. After all, the 'Net is a remarkable and powerful tool for the communication of ideas. I got some insight when attending an audience with my own teacher - a major figure in the Kagyu lineage. The conversation was touching on our Sangha's efforts and direction online - web sites, facebook, twitter, online curriculum, etc.. Someone asked about participation in forums. Rinpoche, immediately answered with a thumbs-down gesture and went on to explain that, in his mind, forums were just a lot of idle chatter and not particularly productive. He stopped short of discouraging or forbidding us, as individuals, from participation, but it was quite clear where he stood on the matter. He hasn't gone so far as to clamp down on us (and he could), yet,, but his students don't tend to gather online as ChNN's do.
I've seen a few, very heated and at times uninformed discussions about Dzogchen with ChNN's name being bandied about. Forums quickly become a complete free-for-all. Very little "signal", with an awful lot of "noise". I can see why ChNN felt he had to say something. It looks bad and not just for ChNN. It looks bad for for his students. It looks bad for Dzogchen. It looks bad for the Dharma.
I came to Colorado for the fishing and fell in love with the rivers here. After some years I began to see that the fishing being done on these rivers I loved was causing great damage to that ecosystem. I saw that I was a part of it and contributed to it. I stopped fishing. I haven't picked up a fly rod to fish in over 20 years. I often consider doing what @Citta has done, for much the same reason as I had for quitting fishing.
Comments
I am....surprised that is.
Social media/sites/forums are a social medium. If socializing is causing problems for a particular group....I guess they see it best to limit who they socialize with. To each his own. I'm not on fb or other social sites bec of the negativity....so...part of me understands....but I still think it's promoting aversion over things you can't control......
You can't control what everyone everywhere thinks about you and all things all the time... that's when renunciation comes into play....
www can be hard for the best of practitioners.. www AKA wild, wild west.... hahaha
@Chaz There's a lot of truth in what you've said. It doesn't always have to be that way, though.
I often consider doing what @Citta has done, for much the same reason as I had for quitting fishing.
What purpose is served by the announcement? If it is that important, just do it.
Yes. but things always seem to turn south.
You may remember the old Big View forums. They got off to a great start but within a few years went downhill into petty squabbling, massive egos and bashing traditions and teachers. Recall, if you will, the old eSangha forums. When they finally pulled the plug on that, it was a total mess. The Buddha Forum got to where just one person was posting regularly and he was using it more as a blog than a forum.
I can't think of a single teacher who would encourge his or her student to participate in such a community. I'm surprised more haven't taken a stand.
If everyone adhered to what is right, proper, lawful, skillful and temperate an awful lot of 'law-keepers' would be out of a job....
That would be me, in this case....!
I have taken a stand. I have no plans on renouncing and I refuse to squabble and argue and talk bad about people's teachers and teachings. That's my stand. ...but it would also be my stand in any other social medium.
As a householder...It's my practice to learn to get along with the people in my house and Sangha.
One less I need to ban......
Lack of an active and passive skill set is not surprising. However the dharma will be spread through social media and people encouraged to evaluate the 'senior ranks' in person.
If a limited teaching can only be transmitted in one form, so be it. However you may find that the formless is transmitted despite the form not because of it.
To give you an example; I went to see in person, a renowned teacher, whose books I admired as getting to the heart of dharma. He is a kindly and pure individual. Enlightened? No. Therefore his books were better than his effect on his 'students'. I would say he was a force for social good and kindness but nothing more. That sadly is not uncommon.
In Sufi transmission, students have been instructed and guided to enlightenment just by letter. Now we have videophone, youtube and social media, any use . . . of course. Potential misuse/misunderstanding? . . . of course. A Middle Way? Perhaps so . . .
and now back to the surprised . . .
Forums are just tools like anyone else. People who are misbehaving, trolling, whatever are no different than similar people in real life...when they get attention, they keep going. When they are ignored, they disappear. But too many people, including me oftentimes, feel the need to attempt to right incorrect information, convince the person to change their ways/see the light, and so on. Each person has to decide if it works for them, and if not, why. This is the only forum I participate in, and it caused me more distress in my practice in the past. Now I mostly just use it for what it is, I sometimes get great information and meet great people, and the rest of it, I just let it be. I try not to treat it any differently than I do real life. One's practice can only be polluted by it if it is allowed to.
Our Sangha is spread between 4 cities in MN-Minneapolis, Duluth, Hibbing and Ely. The only way we can keep up with each other is by communicating online. We have a closed FB discussion group, just for students of our teacher. It works quite well. Our teacher is not involved in it, as in he is not online participating, but it was opened at his suggestion and the topics brought up (other than questions by the students of course) are done by his most senior student. It works out very nicely, and because almost all of us have at least met in person before, and we are on the same path, we don't run into the problems that sometimes come up here. We have a personal connection so there is no desire to one up each other, and we don't have the same communication struggles because there aren't a dozen different schools trying to give advice. So, online tools can most certainly work fairly well. It is also the only way (email) that we have to communicate with our teacher when he is out of the country half the year.
I understand the position of these teachers fully. But won't it depend on who is participating in the discussions. And what about people like me, who want to learn more but can't find a teacher. Yet i find answers here, from all walks of life. I understood buddhism as being a philosophy of practice, of experience, different from people to people but focussed on the same goal. Also, i recal the dalai lama stating that buddhism should modernize and move with it's time.
Just to say that i respect that viewpoint of these teachers. But still see the potential in forums for us to help each other on our paths.
Good point @Cobaltsword! E-forums are part of the reality of the technological world we live in today.
And a good many people are drawn to Buddhism these days. Some of them are just curious and want to try the ideas for size, others are serious students with some experience and some others belong in sanghas with ancient lineages and know the sutras by heart.
Whatever the background, e-forums have the potential to be ideal places for like-minded people to exchange ideas, discuss traditions and learn and grow in their knowledge and practice of the Dharma. Ideally those who don't know much but want to learn, should find some guidance from those who know more and would be willing to share their knowledge. Many people don't have access to a real sangha and well, technology has opened the way to alternative possibilities.
Basically, it is a communication glitch and a human failure. Instead of engaging in a fruitful debate, things go sour when some people show up on the turf who want to blind you with their science, or look down on others because they think their tradition is better than yours. You see it all the time on every site and sometimes it takes one casual comment for somebody to pounce on another's jugular. That's not a good starting point for conversation.
The idea is to open Buddhism to the world, make it easier to understand, not to keep it locked under seven keys. People want to know and learn, not get thrashed every time they mispel a word in Pali. They want guidance, not come-uppance.
And I don't agree you should let your teacher dictate your every move, anyway. The Buddha was willing to share his teaching with every person who came up to him for advice. He communicated to every person in a language they could understand according to their walk of life. That is partly why we have basically the same teaching explained over and over in thousands of sutras. He tried to make his teaching as easy to understand as possible, even at the risk of being misunderstood. He encouraged people to be their own torch and sent his disciples all over the world to spread his teaching. He even encouraged them to put his own teachings to the test of their logic. Reluctant at first, he realized that in the end he could not deprive other people of the fruits of his enlightenment.
The game is not wrong. Its the rules of the game that are unskillfully applied.
>
You're not alone, clearly....
An interesting observation, I have been taking the online Buddhism and Modern Psych class via coursera, and with over 7000 people registered, the discussion forums have been extremely active. Other than some minor exceptions, it has been amazingly civil, well thought out, respectful and engaging. There are people from all types of Buddhist paths, brand new and super experienced...and those who are not Buddhist at all. But the discussion has almost entirely remained organized, on-topic, and civil. Not sure what sets it apart, perhaps it is only because it is a short course, 6 weeks, rather than years and years where tensions between users have a chance to build up and so on.
Also, to keep within context, what Citta said was that the students of his teacher were asked to step back a little bit, and in particular from a certain forum (not this one) where things have gone awry. His teacher, as I understood, did not request them all to cease all online activity. That seems to be Citta's choice (which is just fine, of course). Teachers can only suggest, it is up to students to do with that suggestion what they feel is best.
Exactly what i meant @dharmamom , thus i'm glad i found this forum and all of you.
I like the written form here for hashing out ideas. In face to face Dharma meetings my experience has been that students listen to the teacher for a while, ask some questions, get answers in that tradition then socialize amongst themselves. There doesn't seem to be much Dharma discussion, particularly regarding modern lay people problems or inter tradition interpretation.
Thanks to the mods here this forum seems to correct for douche-baggery and general unpleasantness. IMO its a tool and you get out of it what you make of it.
That, I think, is the best way to work with the Dharma online.
A discussion group, based on student of a particular teacher or lineage (perhaps) can keep the noise to a low roar and even though the teacher isn't online to offer guidance, he's still available via more traditional means, so question/answer topic will be less confised and will tend to stay more-or-less on track with the teacher's teaching. Less confusion, especially for newcomers.
Online study curriculum that is supprted by a topic disccussion forum is also a great idea. For instance if the topic of the curriculum is study of the Madhyamaka as presented in the Kagyu lineage, the discussion can remain focused on that approach and not be distracted by tangents discussing the Gelug take on the subject. Nothing wrong with discussing the Gelug, but these topics are often difficult enough without adding other traditions or lineages to the mix. Learn the stuff and then if it really matters that much, then go study with the Gelugpas for a while.
Well I felt honour bound to come out of " cyber retreat " long enough to comment ( against my own better judgement. )
I had no idea that my post would generate so much discussion.
So much papanca ! :hair:
I said that ChNN had suggested that his students take time out to reflect on whether they as individuals should stand back from Forums, at least for a while.
This was to be an individual decision. It wasn't a papal edict.
It was a result of a number of his students. being made to feel unwelcome on a particular forum.
( A forum I am not in fact a member of. ..)
He was also concerned that some of his students were being drawn into discussion of topics that they had undertaken not to discuss apart from within his Sangha.
And I reflecting on that and decided to take a break.
Thats all.
No mystery. No suggestion of righteousness. And no attempt **at all ** to tell to others what to do, or to criticise their use of the forum.
ChNN was not commenting of forums per se. He was talking to his students.
I meant what I said,
Metta to all.
I think the reason for that is a lot of teachers teach practice rather than theory, so there isn't much to discuss after the teaching and Q&A is over.
Inter-tradtion stuff is fine if you're into comparative Buddhism, but again, most teachers seem to emphasize practice.
I'd agree, that's a good point to point out.
Life is suffering.
Forums will, in time, degrade and dissolve (go the way of all flesh LOL).
People visit forums for help, and to help others. As long as the owners and administrators feel there is benefit, such forums will remain open for public participation. No one has to participate, so it's not something you get dragged into and can't help.
Anyone who feels that the forum is creating negativity for themselves can leave at any time. Anyone who feels that the forum is creating general negativity for its members that outweighs the benefits... needs to talk to those owners and administrators.
That's pretty much it.
Many teachers prefer personalized emails over social media. Let's not forget Dahui instructed his lay students through letters, if he was alive today he probably would be using email too.
Though I have witnessed some issues with the online forum format, I have seen great resilience and overall understanding too. More than one forum has survived major conflicts and has come out more humble and open on the other side. I think in this respect I prefer skillful transformation of online forums over renunciation of them. As they say, the greatest renunciation is renouncing renunciation.