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What tradition to choose?
Alexandra
New
Hello,
I need some help choosing between: Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana. And also, choosing one of their schools. (Like for example, if I choose Mahayana, is Zen or Pure Land or so on?) It's so hard, I've made a lot of research, but it's too hard to choose, as they are kind of the same. Please, don't say that I can wait. I know I can wait, but I would prefer to attend one of community of Buddhists we have here and they are not targeted to general Buddhism, for example one i for Zen Buddhists. This is a list of what I'm looking for:
- GOD: I think that there might be a god, or that there may be deities. But I don't think they judge us when we die or we need to worship them in this life. Their existence is not important for me. Moreover, I don't think the Universe was created by a god, I believe in science when it comes to this. So, their existence is not important for me. I can't deny their existence, but at the same time I don't say that they really exist. I hope you understand me.
- BUDDHA: I believe he existed, but I don't consider him a god as I said above. I only think that because he reached enlightenment and parinirvana he is superior. Something like this.
- FOOD: I am a vegan. I think that animals, not so sure about nature (like trees, flowers, etc.) can feel emotions, so killing them is as wrong as killing a human, in my opinion.
4.HOW: I would want to practice this religion, but at the same time I would like to study a bit. I think that knowledge is the key to understand universe. So, there should be 50% practice- 50% study.
5.COMMUNITY: I think that the community is important, so everybody should help each one to attain enlightenment. I am not so sure that in our next life we come back to help the same people that helped us to attain enlightenment, but I think we should always help each other to attain this goal. But I think the ultimate goal is to release ourselves from the circle of rebirth, and we can do it only by ourselves, I'm not so sure others can help us doing this. I hope you understand what I wanted to say, I'm not a native English speaker. - TEACHER: I would like to be guided by a teacher. I believe we can't learn Buddhism without a teacher who said what to do next.
7.RULES: A set of rules would be appreciated. But, not something very strict. I always feel good when I know that the community I'm in share the same rules as me.
8.REINCARNATION: I believe that after life, we continue our journey. I'm not sure if in this Universe, this planet, or like in the same form. Maybe in the next life we are an animal or a deity. But, I think our next life is influenced by the previous life we had and we receive a better or worse life based on the actions we took in the previous life. - TIME: I don’t think I have so much time to dedicate to Buddhist as I’m a student. So maybe, 1-2 hours a day.
- SPIRITS/GHOSTS: I think there are other ,,creatures'' like ghosts. Maybe, this is the life they received, maybe they are in a parallel Universe and they are trying to communicate with use. Also, maybe they are also so evil ghosts.
11.SCHOOLS: We have a wide diversity of Buddhist schools here, so this won’t be a big problem. - BELIEF: I think is important to follow what Buddha said, but maybe it can be interpreted in a different way. I think we should belief something only if it agrees with our common sense.
- ACCEPTANCE: I think it’s important to accept others’ opinions, religion and their sexual orientation. You are born this way, and you can't chance it. Everybody is different.
- OUR ROLE: I think it’s important to become a better person and a more intelligent person. It's nothing wrong if you feel greed, for example, but it's wrong if you don't try to change it. I believe our role on this Universe is to bring harmony and peace. At the same time, to have a happy life. We don't have to suffer and this life isn't a test. We should try to be a good person not because we will be judged by someone when we die, but because this is the right thing to do: for us and for others.
- THIS LIFE: I think that a happy life now is as important as the ,,afterlife’’. You can't know for sure what happens next, so it's important to treasure this life.
- HEAVEN: I accept the idea of Nirvana. Maybe we don't reincarnate forever, so at the end of the journey, maybe we will arrive at good place like, heaven, or at a bad place, like hell. It all depends on our actions.
- SINS: I think our sins (if they are not to bad – as a crime) can be forgiven. I think that if we do something bad and the other person forgive us, then our sins can be forgiven. But it all depends, I think that a crime is such a bad thing that it will affect our next life.
- PRACTICE: I said that I want to practice and to study. When I mean practice I mean meditation and physical work, not saying prayers to some deities and gods as I said in point 1, not recite some incantations, not something that involves something related to magic and mysticism, just meditation and physical work. When I say study, I mean learning about that branch of Buddhism, even its history.
I don't think there is something more. Maybe you can help me. It is very important for me to choose the right school.
Thank you, everybody.
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Comments
There isn't likely to be a tradition that matches your criteria. Some may, more or less, but not all. If you start looking, carefully, you may find a tradition that gets close enough to suit you. Youll have spend time with each one you find to get a proper evaluation.
Good luck on your search!
Please forgive me for saying this, but you know very little about Buddhism, so to be honest with you, I'd steer clear of choosing a school until (1) you know more, and (2) you know the distinct difference between the schools. For example, Zen and Pure Land ARE Mahayana...
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Most Buddhists would go along with this, or like me, refuse to consider the existence or not, as being completely irrelevant to practice.
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No, you're right - the Buddha wasn't a God. In that, we're all in agreement.
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And your opinion is important, but a large number of Buddhists eat meat. And there's nothing to say they can't, in some traditions. But you can be a Vegan in whichever tradition you choose.
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Buddhism is not so much a Religion, more a way of life. It can - and more often than not, is - incorporated into everything you think, say and do. Because it applies, in all and every situation.
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Buddhists do not proselytise or preach. So it is not skilful to try to influence or convert others, but talking to people about it, in the hope they will agree with you. We consider the fact that Actions speak Louder than Words. In other words, let others see you putting Buddhism into practice, don't tell.
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I've been a Buddhist for nearly 20 years, and have never had a one-to-one teacher. Still here, and I honestly can't say I have suffered for it...
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Buddhism doesn't have rules, laws or solid conditions. It has the Eightfold path and the 5 precepts but these are recommendations, not commandments. If you desperately 'need' rules, you're looking at the wrong calling.
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You're free to think whatever you like, and to adhere to whichever principle you want. But your opinion may change with more study. Or it may not. Wait and see....
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Like I said: Buddhism isn't some thing you slot, fit in, or allocate a specific time to. Buddhism is something you'll find you can implement, 24/7. And still have a great time.
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Again, think or believe whatever you want, but be prepared to change your mind is something you learn in Buddhism alters that perception.
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Right....? Good.....
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We don't tend to adhere so much to 'belief' as 'Faith: But Faith meaning 'being confident in that which you have learnt'. Question everything, test it for yourself, examine, scrutinise and think on it. If it sits well with you, adopt it. If it doesn't, lay it aside for now. Nobody, anywhere in Buddhism, will either demand or expect you 'believe' anything.
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No argument there...
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Yes, but again, never force anything on anyone, simply because you think it's right....
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The life now is MORE important than 'the afterlife'. You only get to do this one, once. so do this one right. The rest will follow.
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Nirvana isn't a place you go to.
Nirvana is a state of being. It's here, right now, if you want it, and you don't have to die to get there.
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'Sin' has no place in Buddhism. Kamma is a process, not a judgemental tool. So a good way of looking at things is this:
You are punished BY your actions, not FOR them.
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Fine. But this is an ongoing and never-ending process. Even His Holiness the Dalai Lama maintains he learns something new about Buddhism, every day....
Actually, no, it isn't. It's more important first of all, to come to understand what Buddhism really is, and how you can implement it into your life.
Don't mention it!
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I know I can wait, but I would prefer to attend one of community of Buddhists we have here and they are not targeted to general Buddhism, for example one i for Zen Buddhists. This is a list of what I'm looking for:
You probably won't find an exact match. Could I suggest just visiting the group(s) that are local to you as a starting point? You don't need to make any early commitments and it's fine to "shop around".
There's loads of information on the internet but it's probably better to get some face-to-face experience and chat to people.
There's nothing to it, but to do it. You have to find out who you like hangin' out with. Who fills your cup. If none of the groups in your area fancy you or you just aren't comfortable...practice little things in everyday life until the teacher shows up. ..
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The building or a group doesn't make you a Buddhist. You do. Anywhere...anytime.
Nice to meet you! Feel free to join us as a practicing Sangha..
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As others have already noted, you're probably not going to find 'the perfect tradition.' That said, I'm partial to the Thai Forest tradition of Theravada. The tradition itself is focused more on practice than study, but study is still important. The teachings I've received from forest monastics are often straightforward and practical, and I think the wisdom is compatible with a variety of worldviews and personal practices (such as being vegan).
I'm a socially-progressive vegetarian who's interested in other spiritual traditions as well, and I feel that I've grown a lot while practicing in this tradition. It may not be right for you, especially depending on the kind of teachers you have in your area (I'm lucky in that I have an amazing lay-community in Ajahn Chah's lineage supervised by Ajahn Pasanno), but I suggest looking into it.
In the beginning its good to be a seeker. Perhaps later a student. With this in mind get as much exposure as you can. Its not yet a footrace.
Some people like Vietnamese Zen (Thich Nath Hanh). It's less scandal-prone than Japanese Zen. The same can be said for the Thai Forest Tradition, which is a form of Theravada. Mahayana tends to be complex, with multiple Buddhas and other supernatural beings. If this doesn't sound like your cup of tea, try Theravada.
But I agree with federica, that you would probably do best to study the basics of Buddhism on your own, reading. When you learn more about the fundamentals, then you can consider choosing a school. Warning: if a group puts their teacher high on a pedestal, and says she/he is not to be questioned, look for another group. A good teacher is humble.
Quote of the week.
So, everyone seems to agree that there is no "perfect" tradition for you, and I just wanted to make a point about that. Buddhism is a learning process and if you study it, it is likely that some of your views on the above topics may change. I'm only speaking from personal experience here. Some of your requirements are completely understandable, but for some of them, you may want to consider that you are a non-Buddhist seeking non-Buddhist established views from Buddhism... if that makes sense.
All I'm really saying is be a little open to other views from whatever path you decide on. If you get to a point where, even with understanding, you absolutely cannot agree with what you're being taught, then move on. Like you said, you have a lot of options.
Would you bring a list such as this on a date to see if you like them?
I've heard this is happening more and more, these days. I think it started when some self-help books and psychologists recommended writing down one's desired characteristics, as a way of gaining clarity, and deciding what was frivolous and what was crucial. I think people have gotten way carried away with this.
Yes. Having self-awareness is one thing, but all relationships (including with one's sangha) require a certain amount of self-surrender in order to develop.
That's kind of what I was getting at. Buddhism is definitely about growing and (in my case, at least) sometimes confronting delusion. I'm never scared of learning about views that oppose my own because sometimes that's what we need. But we also need to be aware that we are ultimately free to decide as well. Seeking out that which already supports our currently held views is called confirmation bias and that can really stunt growth.
@Alexandra ! Hi!
Wow that's a comprehensive list!
I would suggest start learning about the practice side of Buddhism, find a meditation that suits you and learn the basics/fundamentals that all schools have.
A meditation teacher helps greatly, doesn't matter what school. Find someone who knows what they are doing but shop around
I would say I'm Therevadin with the scriptures, Mahayanist with the helping others, Zen with the way of life and a spice of Daoist with the oneness.
All schools have merits, I just find the most practical way. For me it's not religion. It's about reality
A good teacher is humble.
Or at least not arrogant.
hi
Why choose?
and you dont have to choose right now.
I have not made a choice however I still practice (a bit).
Purists might not like it but if a pick a mix buddist practice
works for you then go for it.
slainte
Like others have said, there are so many schools to choose from but still, there may not be one specific lineage that caters to your every view.
It may help to remember that the reason there are so many ways to go about the dharma is because we are all unique.
I have 2 Sanghas nearby that I occasion but I belong to neither. A fairly new Buddhist Church has opened up and so my finace and I are going to see what exactly they are into and if they can legally marry us.
If it turns out to be a welcoming and family like atmosphere we could get talked into joining but like you, we have distinct needs.
I have been studying/practicing Buddhism as my path for almost 25 years and I still remain non-sectarian. Some here will say that's a sign of being wishy-washy but to me there can only ever be one Sangha as multi-faceted as it is.
I would suggest taking your list with you and spend some time in each of the communities.
Meet the people. Let them know what you are looking for and see what turns up.
You should write down what you think of every sangha you frequent on each point of your list.
A tip:
Look at the senior/respected members of that sangha and see if they measure up to your standards.
Good luck.
/Victor
Hi @Alexandra
. Your list of requirements helped me construct my own . . .
I believe in Almighty Cod or lesser fishiness. Am I prepared to be battered?
I think I know what nirvana is. Am I prepared to let it go . . .
I am prepared to use cannibalised nutrition or food medicinal to my omnivore being. Is there any hope for me?
I would like to study myself and others and find our interdependence.
I know that on a deep level everyone is awake but distracted. Should I start with my own awakening?
I assume I have the qualities to be teachable. Maybe I have not developed discernment and the capacity to listen . . . Oh dear . . .
Rules are for the undisciplined . . . or wait . . . do the disciplined have self control . . .
Rebirth happens in each moment. One thought leads to another. No wonder it has to stop . . .
I feel that Buddhism makes a fine hobby, so does cycling . . . maybe I can combine the two to make quicker progress.
I believe in all kinds of nonsense for example that my meditation cushion has a personality, things that have no effect on my dukkha are worth believing in and of course Superman . . .
I believe I should not have been thrown out of the Yinyana school of Buddhism by the founder (that would be me) . . . ah well . . .
I think is important to follow what Buddha said, but maybe it can be interpreted in a different way. I think we should believe something only if it agrees with our common sense. We haz plan!
I think it’s important to accept that others have opinions, religion and sexual orientation different to our own. Everybody is different.
Enough about me already. Any hope? I think so . . .
Now I am ready for the next step . . . which is untraditional . . .
:wave: .
Kia Ora,
Thus I have heard the Theravada tradition has got a this week's special going, if you sign up before the end of the week you can become an Arhat for half price...
Mind you thus I have also heard the Mahayana may try and top this offer with a Bodhisattva special....
Oh I almost forgot... Zen's special this week, two kenshōs for the price of one(you get two glimpses ) and their Satori special is experience NOW and pay later...
So take your pick...... .
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On a more serious note:
"When the student is ready the teacher will appear!"
Metta Shoshin .
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Namaste all,
Don't forget @Alexandra's native language is not English so your jokes may not be understood.
I don't think having a list is such a bad thing as such. Maybe not as exhaustive as that to begin with, but it's good to understand what you do and don't believe when exploring a new spiritual path.
In metta,
Raven
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You're right. Someone comes in with a serious question and they get what - cod and blue-light specials? English IS my first language and I don't get the humor, save to think it's to make a mockery of @Alexandra 's question.
Having a list isn't a bad thing at all. It gathers thought for the writer and it's easier for the reader to take in and respond to. - especially a long list like we have.
It may not be the best way to go at the problem of finding a sangha, but I kinda admire the directness of it. No subterfuge.
Thank you everybody (almost -.-). This is Buddhism for beginners. I am a beginner. You made me realise what I should do. It was a pleasure to read your answers. Now I am reading Buddhism for Dummies. It's a good book recommended by a Buddhist teacher.
I am quite fluent in English, by the way. Some answers were mean, but I don't care, some of them were funny, but some of them were only mean. But, to be honest, the answers were way better that the Christians responses when I said that I wanted to convert to Buddhism.
I know what I have to do now: to visit every community of Buddhist in our area. If you want to add something more, it will be helpful.
Maybe, it wasn't the best way to ask this question, but I am not an expert in Buddhism, I only am 18 years old, I discovered that Buddhism fit my beliefs like, I don't know for sure, 3 or 4 months ago. I realised that I never was a truly Christian when I was 14-15 years old. For a period I thought I was an atheist, but in fact I am not.
What, I want to say is that please don't be so mean, I am a beginner when it comes to Buddhism and kind of confused.
Thank you.
You might also try "What The Buddha Taught" by Rahola. It's a very good beginner's book.
Why did you tell Christians you wanted to convert to Buddhism? What did you expect, a pat on the back? From Unitarians maybe ....:-)
And where are you located?
Thanks for the book, I will read it. ^.^
Well as I never was a religious person, neither my parents more or less, I asked the Christians on the forum if I have to do something formally to give up Christianity. Because, I though if you want to be a Christian the first step is to be baptized. Or, if we are talking about Buddhism I can take a formally refuge if I want. But, they were so cruel, some of them said that I will go to Hell and something like this. I was so amazed O.O.
And I am from Romania, Bucharest.
Three books I recommend to beginners.
Suttanipata. The below link is only a little subset of it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/
Here is the book Chaz recommended:
http://www.ddbc.edu.tw/zh/downloads/download_document.html?gid=4210
Dhammapada. Also a subset I think.
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/scrndhamma.pdf
Do you perchance know who Rossum is?
Some more tips since you asked.
Do not be afraid to alter your list as you go along.
Some questions might become redundant and new ones might emerge.
Use two values to assess each question on your list if you intend to use it.
One for how well a certain community envelopes the question (say 1-5) and one value for how important it is to you (again 1-5). Multiply these values to get a good assessment.
Ex.
Community Value = 2 (only few are vegans)
Personal Importance = 5
Total for community1 = 2 X 5 = 10
I am not kidding this is a widely used risk assessment tool.
3.You obviously got a brain so use it and you will be fine.
Other than that I hope you have a nice meet with different Buddhist communities.
/Victor
Exactly so.
This will indicate what is available as opposed to the ideal sangha. You will find what works for you.
Good luck :wave: .
As the saying goes, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Explore, talk to people, talk to centers, talk to teachers, and find your home. You'll know when you get there.
Some random thoughts:
The point of study is to bring about further practice. They aren't really separate from each others.
If being forgiven for wrongs/sins requires the forgiveness of the person who was wronged, then a whole lot of people are never forgiven. It is more about forgiving yourself, and even if you do so you may have karma to work with later. Getting the forgiveness of a person you wronged does not let you off the karmic hook.
Do you have a meditation practice yet Alexandra?
I am very busy, as I am in my last year of high school and I have a hard exam next year for University entry. I became interested in Buddhism 3 or 4 month ago. And I though that it's better to wait until I will find a community to practice with them. One of the reasons I want to find the tradition that will fit me. But as I said, I will start looking at the local communities and I will find the one that fit me. This will be next year in October or November. Until then I will focus on reading about Buddhism.
I said that I have many communities here, the truth is that I don't have NOW. I will have many next year when I go to University. I didn't want to bother you with too many details. Here I have no community.
Some don't follow a tradition per se, but do subscribe to the Four Noble Truths and Noble Eightfold Path, Impermanence, Not-Self, Emptiness, Dependent Origination, Karma and Rebirth (at least as they pertain to this life), the Five Precepts, Compassion and Non-Harm (ahimsa), Meditation and other teachings that are useful.
Often it's called "The 4, the 8, and the 5." for simplicity. Four Noble Truths, Noble Eightfold Path, Five Precepts. Basic, basic Buddhism. Since many of the other teachings are really contained in an understanding of the Four Noble Truths, it's not as stark as it sounds.
What I'd recommend is studying up on these, and other, concepts and see how they strike you personally. That may guide you toward one tradition or another, because they teach them in different ways.
Alexandra that is great. Meditation really doesn't take that long and it would be a way to 'test the waters'. You could meditate for five minutes only. Good luck with your studies.
There isn't really a wrong way to meditate, and you won't be behind whatever tradition you start if you practice it now. It'll help you through your studies and your transition to university life. Your teacher within a community will encourage you to practice on your own, not just with a group. If you always wait for the perfect time, you'll always be waiting because it doesn't exist. If you think you are busy now, wait until university! No time like the present to at least get started. It'll also help you absorb better what you are reading.
Kia Ora @Alexandra ,
The first part of my post (warped sense of humour) was about the "wants" that the ego demands (I want this, and I don't want that!) and the last part (somewhat serious) was in regards to "needs" (Things will fall into place when the time is right!). ..
One does not have to take life too seriously, it's quite capable of doing this all by itself.......without any help...
Hope you find what it is you're looking for.....
Metta Shoshin .
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Don't be misled by talk and idle speculation. You really on your own here. So be careful as you seek out your answer.
Oh yeah dudette. Let me get a little bit parenty on you.
If you go to unknown places to meet unknown people. Bring a wellknown and trusted friend with you.
/Victor.
Good news. Good book. Read it many times.
Answers here are shared, they are not just about you. We all have lists of beliefs, requirements that Buddhism has to fulfil, opinions, fantasies etc. You illustrate the approach many of us have to dharma. The full cup.
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
We also have practitioners and meditators, people with life experience and a diversity of understandings. Every answer here is meant to alter your perception . . . or to express help in a way that exhibits the skill level of the poster.
The fastest route to Buddhist understanding is meditation, not sangha, beliefs or lists of requirements.
You do not yet have a meditation practice. I would suggest as have others, that you start this discipline as soon as possible.
Sit on a cushion. See how long you can sit with yourself. Keep a journal.
http://m.wikihow.com/Meditate-for-Beginners
Everything is fine. Nobody is being anything but helpful in the best way they can . . .
I think somebody going to a Buddhist meditation class would be somewhat bemused by the vagueness of that statement.