Anyone know about Treeleaf? [Online Soto Zen Sangha]
Toraldris
-`-,-{@ Zen Nud... Buddhist @}-,-`- East Coast, USA Veteran
http://www.Treeleaf.org
"Zazen & Your Neighborhood Zen Sangha, available any place or time…"
What is Treeleaf?
Treeleaf Zendo was designed specifically as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide netcast Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Soto Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. Treeleaf opened its doors in 2006. The focus is Shikantaza “Just Sitting” Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen.
Has anyone heard of this site before, been a member, or is currently a member? If so... what are your thoughts?
I've been a non-traditionalist these past 10 years, but this site seems to offer a way of belonging to, and interacting with (!), an online Zen sangha in a way that other forums can not (no offense; I love what this forum can do).
Zen has always piqued my interest, though there are no sanghas of any kind in my area. This would seem to be the answer to my perpetual sangha-less-ness, if it's all that it's cracked up to be. Looking forward to comments!
Comments
It is very good. The two teachers are excellent mentors, with experienced and relevant advice.
For technical reasons, I found the forum useful and very good but had great diffulculties setting up the hardware, which needed Flash (not available on ipad). Once a member you are invited to sits with other members.
Microphone and web cam needed for joint sits. The one time I did manage to join a sit fully, much to my surprise, I was not really set up for the walking meditation, which is also part of the practice. My hardware has recently changed but am not using Windows might make things easier as technical support is geared towards mainstream OS, not the Linux I prefer.
The online principal is useful and with technical support, which is available, Treeleaf works as provided.
You will also find support from Zen teachers on http://www.zenforuminternational.org/ and would probably find more specific advice and recommendations available.
:wave: .
I'm a member there, too (yep, and at the secular Buddhism website) but after I was warmly welcomed, I mainly read and 'listened'.
I was not feeling the traditional Zen-ness of the site, but this is way back when I was first scrabbling around, trying to find my feet and my place. I suspect they are quite open minded and didn't sense pressure toward conformity but there are some serious Zen folks on that forum, I found it so far outside my immediate experience it was intimidating -- that's on me, not them.
For what it's worth I found the members to be very serious and respectful of one another. Zen has always piqued my interest too. There is a Zen sangha in my town, not the Soto school but the other one, begins with an R.
@lobster Thanks. I don't think my laptop would be good for walking meditation...
@Hamsaka Rinzai! I'd probably prefer Rinzai simply because of koans, but that probably requires better access and direct face-time with a teacher than even Treeleaf purports to provide!
Ah yes, Rinzai! The teacher here in Oly is said to hold direct lineage, but apparently there are 'many'. In looking into Rinzai Zen, I read the collection of poems by the wandering homeless monk fellow this particular teacher holds dear -- Ryokan. "Sky Above, Great Wind" is the name of the book.
Another book that was offered as basic good reading on Treeleaf was "Bringing the Sacred to Life" by John Daido Loori.
Yes, I have heard of it before and heard only good things. I know some people who are members and participate there a lot and they find it quite helpful.
One of the teachers there, Jundo Cohen, came to our temple once. Nice guy. 
I've had a few conversations with Jundo Cohen over at Treeleaf when I was exploring Zen. He's a good teacher and all round nice bloke.
Thanks everyone. It all sounds good.
I was quite mistaken, and just want to correct this so as not to confuse anyone who lives nearby or is traveling through. There are both Soto and Rinzai traditions here in Olympia, and it was from the Soto tradition that Ryokan's book of verse was recommended, not the Rinzai school. BTW I LOVED Ryokan's verses, totally worth a couple of afternoons reading and laughing and thinking.
They seem very welcoming so far. I've received communication from one of the teachers and even a "priest in training" offering help if I need any. Homey.
The thing that surprised me most, though, is that my "normal" meditation practice seems to be the same thing as the Shikantaza ("just sitting") meditation they teach/practice. I'd usually describe my meditation style as "bare awareness" or non-interference, but it's just as well to call it Zazen! :om:
At least now I don't wonder if I've been meditating wrong for the past 10 years. That was always a minor worry because I didn't have a teacher to instruct me! :clap:
Don't worry, it'll still count towards the final qualification.
@AldrisTorvalds
At least now I don't wonder if I've been meditating wrong for the past 10 years.
Shikan Taza is the allowing of all phenomena to arise, live and pass away, unmolested by our own conditioned impulses and if that is what your meditation is then your meditation was actually the Zen teacher that you thought you didn't have..
That's certainly reassuring! :bowdown: I used to do awareness of breathing, but after a while found that I could stop following the breath and simply "be" the awareness. After a few weeks or months, mindfulness of breathing simply became a way to "bootstrap" me into a meditative state. These days I don't have to bother with that part, I just drop right into meditation whenever I can.
@AldrisTorvalds
In Soto Zen, a focus on the breath is a useful counter balance to our myopic tendencies towards meditatively living in our minds. Often used as an initial centering exercise and is often dropped after a few circulations of the breath or returned to if you find yourself repeatedly playing around with phenomena.
A focus on the breathing is more akin to a concentration exercise than pure Zazen.
To rest the awareness (if necessary) on the left palm is just a less directed and more subtle concentration exercise than the breath focus and also makes use of the balancing aspects of the seated meditation hand mudra.
With Soto Zen, an undirected awareness however, over the directed forms is the preferable meditation when possible.
.
Yes, there are many nuances with the method, and it takes time to explore these and see what the differences really are. Sometimes people will get taught a particular method and assume that's all there is.
I'm watching the eighteenth part of the introductory talks, and Taigu is speaking about compassion and the Bodhisattva "Kannon". At one point he says he doesn't know whether Kannon is above or below, or can be found in any particular place as a corporeal entity... and then as an aside says "To be honest with you I don't believe. I don't believe in such places. But truly I believe that Kannon's home is everywhere."
I really like that it's about the meaning, and not trying to justify the existence of... whatever.
It's the natural compassion that arises when we get out of the way; that's what is real and meaningful.
I have yet to see a compassion exclusion zone.
They also mention how sitting is putting the "small self" out of a job, which I found an extraordinarily insightful way to think about meditation! Especially to explain it to noobs. :vimp:
Nowhere that it can't arise, but plenty of places and times that it's sadly prevented from arising. :-/
So is shikantaza basically just sitting with awareness and accepting whatever arises?
Might that include lengthy daydreaming for example?
Hi Spiny,
It seems to me that daydreaming would be an example of getting drawn into a mental experience, as opposed to simply being aware of it. In other words, the awareness and acceptance should take place without becoming enchanted by and attached to the object of awareness.
I'm not very knowledgeable about shikantaza, though, so this answer may be off the mark. Add salt as needed.
That does make sense, but not being drawn into a mental experience seems to imply some kind of effort? Or to put it another way, maintaining awareness seems to imply some kind of effort?
@SpinyNorman
Shikantaza is the epitome of effort to stop indulging in the habituated impulses that maintain our ignorance. (ego, self verses others, or the dream of our separation from existence)
Part of our ego's success in manipulating the incoming data to successfully propagate itself, is simply the obscuration of some sense data over others.
Zazen is the effort to be attentively open to all of our sense data instead of just allowing our habituated impulses to continue dictating their own selective and self serving agenda.
A daydream is only the obscuration of some sense data over others.
With the other sense data being given equal status, a daydream has little credibility as anything more than a passing thought.
@SpinyNorman What they said. It's just like Anapanasati, Mindfulness of Breathing, except you don't pull back to the breath when you notice you've attached to thought... you pull back to pure awareness itself (of everything and nothing in particular).
In both techniques you're supposed to simply notice arising thoughts, feelings, and sense data and let them go back to where they came from. If thoughts arise and you immediately let them go, daydreaming doesn't happen. Daydreaming is indulging in thought and flights of fancy; it's not meditating.
Yes, I see. It's much like a practice I do called "rise and fall". So is the pulling back to pure awareness thing basically the same as re-establishing mindfulness?
Yep. Mindfulness while just sitting, as opposed to mindfulness while doing stuff. Practicing the one makes it easier to do the other; mindfulness increases during daily activities whether you mean it to or not, simply because you've practiced so often!
Oh yes, a regular sitting practice is certainly the foundation for maintaining mindfulness off the cushion. It's good, innit?
@SpinyNorman It's worked wonders for me. My mind is pretty empty these days (lol). Meditation starts out making it much more apparent how active the mind is, but the more we practice letting go of thoughts and emotions as they arise, the less active they become. They wither away like plants that haven't been watered, and only the natural open spaciousness of the mind remains; light and joyful, unburdened.
By the way Shikantaza is Zazen, it's just a Japanese translation of a Chinese term or something. It works out as "just sitting" or "nothing but precisely sitting", while Zazen is "seated meditation", but it's the same meditation technique.
In respect of the OP which appears to have been a query about the Treeleaf 'Sangha' it is important to flag that this group operates very much on the outer edge of the fringe of Soto Zen Buddhism. While it purports to cater for people who have difficulty practicing with a 'real' sangha it does in fact facilitate people who rather like the idea of dressing up in monk's robes but who simply couldn't be bothered doing the serious, hard and sustained training normally associated with the standard monk's apprenticeship. Why bother, when 'Jundo' or 'Pierre' will ordain you 'virtually' online? That of course would be fine, if these people simply stayed in virtual chat rooms and 'talked' a good practice on various online platforms. But, quite unfortunately, these people attempt to interact with the wider, 'real' Buddhist ordained sangha and hold themselves out as being just like them, when obviously they are not. In short, their virtual 'ordinations' are a farce and are not valid. Ask any of their 'monks' or 'priests' how many seven day sesshins they have sat or how many 90 day monastic practice periods they have participated in and you will, no doubt, experience a rather embarrassed silence. The same applies to all of Nishijima's 'dharma heirs', with maybe one exception. If you are serious then train with someone who has actually walked the 'real' path. If you want to dress up and do play around virtual zen, then Jundo and Pierre are your men. Cheers
No drinking or hate mail required.
They have an excellent forum and are both able advisors. They provide an excellent service of 'fringe' dharma for those unable to do the practice in the way you suggest. They are frequently recommended on zen forum international which is another great resource, with an experienced 'ask a teacher' section.
What alternative do you provide or recommend?
Read my post again. The problem is with people who are able to access real sanghas but choose not to do so because they want to pass themselves off as ordained monks or priests when in point of fact they are not, because they have choosen not to do the necessary training. Cheers
OK done.
What problem? Problem for whom? What in the results and training is so 'sub standard zen'? Sub standard priests, zeniths and zen advisors are welcome here as far as I know. Perhaps you can point them in a better direction when they arrive in unqualified and problematic mode.
oh hi and welcome
The problem, as per my OP, is people passing themselves off as priests when they are not. Would you like to meet a guy who told you that he was a medical doctor when in fact he was not? (Maybe he wanted to be a doctor, maybe could have been, but those damn exams and his kids simply got in the way.) These people are capable of significant damage because once the ink is dry on their invalid ordinations or 'shiho' certificates they then start thinking that they can lead other inexperienced people on the path of practice. If you can't be a priest because you don't have the time to do the rigorous training involved, because have a family and a full time job then you can't be a priest. Move on and accept that you are a layman, don't try to con yourself and others into thinking that you have the necessary experience to lead others in this practice. Believe me, I have yet to meet another real priest in the Soto Zen tradition who does not share this view and think that these 'priests' come anywhere close to the minimum standard required for valid recognition. Cheers
@Mumonkanman; welcome to New Buddhists! What an informative first post.
This is all hypothetical, right? Have you been accosted by a priest who was ordained on line? Have you or anyone you know been significantly damaged? Any personal disappointment, perhaps?
If anyone actually gets damaged by this, let us know. Until then, welcome aboard
It is quite a simple and important point, and if you fail, or refuse, to grasp it then that is either your own ignorance or your own prerogative. The motivation behind the OP was to shine a light on this this issue because it is important that putative or prospective students of Soto Zen Buddhism appreciate that people who train predominately within a virtual sangha are not qualified to then proceed to lead others in practice. And yes, damage has in fact been done because it degrades, diminishes and devalues the position of those people who have actually taken the time to do the necessary training and have engaged with a real teacher, knee to knee and eye ball to eyeball. When you have undergone this training you actually understand the imperative of doing it.
AFA I know....we dont have any wanna be's that u describe here....are u just venting?
Why come here and talk shit about them?
Just a public service announcement? Dont worry about them....worry about u. Not the best way to come in the room here...is it? Welcome....look around....show us what cha got.
Hopefully someone will see the relevant thread and observe that someone who can speak with authority on these issues was able to clarify that Treeleaf performs bogus ordinations and that their bogus priests do not have the necessary experience to lead others in practice. Cheers
When there is a problem and you have the solution, there's no need to worry aqbout it.
When there is a problem, and you do NOT have the solution, there's no use in worrying about it.
@Mumonkanman , we're a pretty laid-back, easy-going bunch of dedicated individuals, but many of us practise Buddhism without actually being Buddhist.
Does that make us bogus?
Don't sweat it.
Is what they are doing illegal?
Or do you simply feel annoyed/irritated/ slighted, because you feel they lack the suitable qualifications?
being a Monk is vastly different to being a doctor.
A doctor's responsibility to their patients means that wrongdoing results in malpractice and being struck off (in extreme cases).
A doctor can physically endanger the life of a patient and cause bodily harm.
What would you consider an extreme case of being a bogus priest?
What is the kind of harm you consider would be equal to the damage a doctor can do?
In fact the analogy is perfectly apposite. The Buddha himself was compared to a Physician and the Four Noble Truths are presented in the format of old Indian Medicinal Forumlas. Both the Doctor and Zen Teacher have positions of authority and responsibility. It is imperative that they are suitably qualified so that they have the requisite skills to be a reliable guide in alleviating suffering and always preventing harm from accruing by their actions. It is entirely incorrect to think that a novice, pretend or virtual Zen teacher cannot do any harm because they do. The teacher must be an 'old hand' who has travelled a long road and has seen how people go can and do go wrong in their practice. If he has the adequate experience he is able to steer the errant student in the right direction. All of this must be seen in the context that a reliable teacher can actaully provide real assistance towards liberation, which includes the ancillary benefit of well being of body and mind.
@Mumonkanman
I do** not** know much about treeleaf but I do know about Zen.
What ever teacher of yours who lets you think that it is ok to publicly slander some linage that is not your own, from the anonymity of an avatar..might be something better for you to talk about in reference to your own understanding of the 4NT & 8 FP.
If your slander has some truth behind it and is not just another example of Zen empire building or tribal identity competitiveness, then perhaps you might want to come out into the sunshine and be counted for what you believe in with your name and face.
If you knew about Slander or Defamation then you would know that they actually cease to exist when the so called slander of defamation is factually accurate. This is called the complete Defence of Justification. I am ordained in the Soto Zen lineage and have been practising since 1984. I have participated in over one hundred and twenty 7 day sesshins in over 30 years of practice and about twenty five 90 day monastic 'ango' practice periods in Japan, Europe and America. My posts are my observations based on my experience. By the way, it is in fact defamatory to impugn a publication as being defamatory when it is not so I would ask you to moderate your efforts towards provocation.
@Mumonkanman "in over 30 years of practice...in Japan, Europe and America"
Did you learn how to be humble those years of practice or opposite?
I remember one saying (from zen?)... Beginners mind
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few."
In Zen practice one appreciates the value of seeing things just as they are. As per my posts, my comments are based on my experience and I do not feel the necessity to garnish them with the false dressing of mock humility. The issue at the heart of my OP is so unambiguous and unequivocal that it would be wrong to address it in a tentative fashion. You may, or may not consider me an expert, where 'expert' is used by you in a pejorative fashion but that is simply your opinion, based on rather limited 'knowledge'.
I'm closing this thread, because basically it's descending into bickering and one-upmanship, neither of which I consider to be Right.... Anything.
Pack it, in, cut it out and thank you all for your contributions.
I received this message (with a request to post it in this thread) in my PM box this morning :
Hi,
I am Jundo, the head bus driver at Treeleaf Sangha.
I just wanted to say that, if anyone has any question about Treeleaf or our ways of Ordinations and Training, please feel free to come over and look around, or write me to ask [jundotreeleaf[a]gmail.com]. I have Ordained a handful of people, but only after knowing them through interaction in our community for several years to be sure of their sincerity. I have to be convinced, with long interaction, of their sincerity, calling, reasons and (of course) basic ethics. However, Ordination is only the first step on a long road, no less than 5 or 10 years or more, before someone would be turned lose through "Transmission" or some certification as an independent teacher. Our program is experimental, and we all want to make sure that the person has internalized the tradition, our history, and is capable of transmitting it, and vows to devote her or himself to a life of continuous practice and service. During that time, the trainees are expected to attend a variety of residential retreats and Sesshin with our community as well as other welcoming Zen Sangha.
I wrote the following about Nishijima Roshi and our take on "Priesthood," right in this life ...
Unlike most Buddhist clergy in Asia, Japanese priests typically marry and are not celibate. Some look at this as a great failing of Japanese Buddhism, a break from 25 centuries of tradition. In Japan and the West, even some Japanese lineage priests and lay teachers themselves are unsure of their own identity and legitimacy, and of their roles compared to each other. ...
Nishijima advocated a form of ordination that fully steps beyond and drops away divisions of “Priest or Lay, Male or Female”, yet allows us to fully embody and actuate each and all as the situation requires. In our lineage, we are not ashamed of nor try to hide our sexuality and worldly relationships, nor do we feel conflicted that we are “monks” with kids and mortgages.
When I am a parent to my children, I am 100% that and fully there for them. When I am a worker at my job, I am that and embody such a role with sincerity and dedication. And when I am asked to step into the role of hosting zazen, offering a dharma talk, practicing and embodying our history and teachings and passing them on to others, I fully carry out and embody 100% the role of “Priest” in that moment. Whatever the moment requires: maintaining a sangha community, bestowing the Precepts, working with others to help sentient beings.
The names we call ourselves do not matter. In Nishijima’s way, we do not ask and are unconcerned with whether we are “Priest” or “Lay”, for we are neither that alone, while always thoroughly both; exclusively each in purest and unadulterated form, yet wholly all at once. ... This is the age when we may begin to figuratively “knock down monastery walls”, to find that Buddha’s Truths may be practiced any place, without divisions of “inside” walls or “outside”.
For some of us, the family kitchen, children’s nursery, office or factory where we work diligently and hard, the hospital bed, volunteer activity or town hall are all our “monastery” and place of training. We can come to recognize the “monastery” located in buildings made of wood and tile as in some ways an expedient means, although with their own power and beauty too.
There are still times when each of us can benefit from periods of withdrawal and silence, be it a sesshin or ango, or the proverbial grass hut in distant hills. Yes, this Way still needs all manner of people, each pursuing the paths of practice suited to their needs and circumstances, be they temple priests catering to the needs of their parishioners, hermits isolated in caves, celibate monks in mountain monasteries, or “out in the world” types demonstrating that all can be found right in the city streets and busy highways of this modern world.
Nishijima, a zen priest yet a working man, a husband and father most of his life, stood for a dropping of “inside” and “out”. He was someone that knew the value of times of retreat, but also the constant realization of these teachings in the home, workplace and soup kitchens.
Anyway, you can read more here ...
http://sweepingzen.com/eight-ways-gudo-wafu-nishijima-will-help-change-zen-buddhism/
As I said, if the thread is re-opened, or if someone wishes to write me privately, I will be happy to explain the content of our Ordination and Training policies.
Gassho, Jundo Cohen
I will have to do a little more checking but I think I should thank Mumonkanman for introducing me to another linage (Treeleaf) that so closely seems to reflects my own 40+ years on a Zafu.
In Gassho
Howard
"Lineage" -- now there's a notion worth investigating.
We all have at least one.
I take refuge in the Buddha.
I take refuge in the Dharma.
I take refuge in the Sangha.
I iz Buddhist lineager ...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refuge_(Buddhism)
I consider you an able stream entrant, arhat ... and fool. Plain speaking to the gone beyond?
You are partially unskilful and extremely lacking in genuine capacity to do more than be banned. Shame on you and your 'genuine' authenticity. Sadly you are gone. I feel your petty rants showed genuine ability behind the zen mistress facade but after the divorce you might have to reconcile yourself to another settlement ...
Intention good. Judgement poor.
@Jundo - what do you feel this person was getting his rakusa in a twist about, so to speak?
I would assume an unwillingness to see that there are many paths in nurturing a sincere, dedicated and gifted Zen priest or teacher.
Not really surprisingly (because it is true in any religion), there is a good deal of "our way or the highway" orthodoxy on the part of any group or church toward others who go about things a different way. That is fine, but I encourage everyone to look at who these people later become in living their Bodhisattva Vows, and not be so concerned about the particular winding road to get there. Beyond the legends, there truly is room for a touch of iconocIasm in the Zen world, and iconoclasm is good if it results in something good.
Gassho, Jundo