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Magic Buddhism
lobster
Crusty Veteran
Many of us are familiar with aspects of magical thought.
Perhaps through Tantra.
For me magic is the absence of presence. In other words I practice Sadhana as if it is really empty or full of 'no-meaning'.
Magic is mentioned in sutrayana. I enjoy its practice, using mala, shrines, imagery, guru devotion and so on.
Ultimately I snap my fingers and it enters the dreams and delusions of reality.
Is reality a Mandala magician? Is magic practical, part of a dream within a dream - what?
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Comments
@lobster that is one of the best posts I've seen on this forum... I expect it will just fall down the list into obscurity
I'm wrestling with this as well.
I too think this is a brilliant post. I have no idea what I really think of magic as I have been involved in Paganism where magic is taken literally.
I'll have to have a good masticate on this and get back to you.
_ /|\ _
¿Qué?
Masticate - to chew repetitively and/or reduce to pulp.
And here you thought I was being kinky right?
OP, what does use of a mala have to do with magic? Could you explain?
A mala can be a focus tool for mantra repetition. Just as a shrine can be a reminder of Buddhist philosophy and commitment. Magic free.
It can also be used in a spooky or magical manner. To create protection, invocation and connection to magical creatures from Garudas to Boddhisatvas. These entities can be explained as mind principles or inner resources that we connect with. So in essence we might travel the magical mala go round with no connection to Magic land. The connection is in the manner of practice.
You can practice with your mala like this
http://www.wildmind.org/mantras/figures
or Harry Potter style
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php?title=Mantra_for_protection_from_evil_spirits_or_black_magic
or just focus on a simple thing such as the breath or the word 'peace' whilst using the mala . . .
I tend to be very rational and logical about my life.
I dropped Catholicism because of the God thing, and the saints, and the prayers.
I liked the fact that the Buddha mentioned the uselessness of prayers.
But here I find myself, once more, always hobnobbing in Tibetan sanghas, meditating and burning incense in my altar, silently appealing to Green Tara in times of trouble, making my rounds of malas on the bus...
and loving it all the way!!
This is interesting. So you rejected it in Catholicism, but you embrace it in Buddhism. Why is that?
Where did the Buddha mention the uselessness of prayers? It would be great if you could provide a link, but not crucial, if you can't find one.
And yes, TB has reminded me of Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity in some ways, in the past.
Where did the Buddha mention the uselessness of prayers? It would be great if you could provide a link, but not crucial, if you can't find one.
And yes, TB has reminded me of Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity in some ways, in the past.
The little I know about Buddhism is stemmed on studying and scrutinising everything I read, so I can always manage to find and provide links to what I say, @Dakini, except when I am reading different books at the same time and forget where I read what I mention at a given time.
It is by the same procedure, studying, searching and passing everything under scrutiny, that one learns not to mistake precept one with precept ten, for example
In "The Milinda Panha" or "Questions of Milinda" you can read:
As usual, with Buddhist suttas, the same quote can be found in different words all over different suttas.
Which does not mean that some schools don't pray anyway.
Since the thread is not about me, I won't once more bore people stiff with why I chose Buddhism over Catholicism. Did that a hundred times already.
Why did you choose Buddhism, for instance?
Edit: Coming to think of it, in the Visuddhi Magga, there is the mention to "rite and ritual clingling" in a derogative way, and "rite clinging" is among the Fetters...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upādāna
http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa7.htm
Wait, was that on a different thread? The 10th precept quoted there is a different one than comes up in internet searches, interestingly. The one quoted by SarahT is the same one recited by the Dalai Lama in the film, 7 Years In Tibet. Maybe it's a version more common in Mahayana Buddhism? But it's pretty clear that it's about not killing or causing (or contributing to motivating others) to kill.
All (living beings) are terrified of punishment (danda); all fear death. Making comparison (of others) with oneself one should neither kill nor cause to kill.
All (living beings) are terrified of punishment (danda); to all, life is dear. Making comparison (of others) with oneself, one should neither kill nor cause to kill.
I find that so poetic, somehow. We should have a thread about the 10th Precept (in its different versions). We've never had one on that topic before.
It's very poetic, but still quoted from the Dhammapada (v.129-130) and related to the 1st precept:
http://www.clear-vision.org/Schools/Students/Ages-17-18/Buddhist-ethics/1st-precept.aspx
The 10th precept differs somehow in the Zen Tradition, but still nothing to do with violence and killing.
http://clearmindzen.blogspot.ch/2009/01/tenth-grave-precept.html
http://www.sfzc.org/zc/display.asp?catid=1,5,13,136&pageid=33
Always delighted to provide you with links, @Dakini!
Sorry, @lobster to momentarily derail your thread!
Hopefully won't happen again...
And yes, TB has reminded me of Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity in some ways, in the past.
They do say ex-Catholics find Tibetan Buddhism appealing.
Right, I've heard that. Interestingly, former Southern Baptists do, too. Wylie, who founded the first Tibetan Studies department in the US and devised a system of transliteration/romanization of Tibetan used by scholars, was a Southern Baptist. I've seen university students who come from that tradition really become fascinated by TB, too. Funny.
Glad to hear he finally found what he was looking for . . .
Honestly, as an ex-Catholic, that's precisely the part of Tibetan Buddhism that I find the most off-putting, but it's growing into me somehow.
The element of magic and metaphysics in any religion/belief is not always a part we can easily understand or justify, but we can find the way to co-habitate with our temporary ignorance until our understanding broadens to the task.
Guess it goes back to Hamlet?
shakespeare-online.com
The element of magic and metaphysics in any religion/belief is not always a part we can easily understand or justify, but we can find the way to co-habitate with our temporary ignorance until our understanding broadens to the task.
I tried to do that with Tibetan Buddhism for many years, but in the end it seemed like more trouble than it was worth. I also got fed up with the "guru worship" thing, the secrecy, the cultural baggage and the approach to be practice being so complicated and convoluted.
I guess either it grows into you or you grow out of it.
There is so much that I love from all the different Buddhisms, that I prefer to fall under the label "Buddhist."
Full stop.
Neither Zen, nor Theravada, nor Mahayana... just call me Buddhist.
Sure, though the different schools have their own assumptions and methods, and mixing them up can lead a degree of confusion.
Or to synthesis.
Tibetan Buddhism is strongly influenced by Hinduism (hence the guru worship, and Tantra), and by shamanism (the "magical thinking" part). The more I learn about Tibetan culture besides the superficial parts that we see as Westerners, the more I learn about how strong the shamanic undercurrent still is. It's fascinating. The most obvious manifestation of that would the be tradition of "oracles", which is pure shamanism.
The Tibetan had their indigenous Bon Shamanism, but apparently it pre-dates the arrival of Buddhism, therefore no Hindu influence visible.
The Chinese, for instance, have bequeathed us what is probably the most widely-used oracle to these days, the Yi Ching, but there is no Hindu influence there.
Do Hindus have oracles?
Maybe I misunderstood and you spoke separately of Hinduism and Shamanism.
Which specifically Tibetan oracles do you mean?
The traditional "oracles" in Tibetan culture were/are women. The Dalai Lamas had to find a lineage of male oracles to use for divination, because the celibate monastic tradition required that. But the ordinary people in the Tibetan cultural zone still go to oracles, who are almost exclusively female. And that comes from the pre-Buddhist shamanic tradition.
The Hindu influence is in Highest Yoga Tantra: the guru devotion and tantric practices.
But there are other tantra and shamanic influences interwoven through Tibetan Buddhist practices. Some of the initiations, for example, show the remnants of animal sacrifice. THese days, they make representations out of dough, instead of live animal sacrifice. And the instructions the lamas give during empowerment rituals, for practitioners to believe in the transformative power of the rituals. That's an element of shamanism.
Giuseppe Tucci's book on Tibet provides a good start for teasing apart the different elements in Tibetan culture. Reading about the history of tantra also is helpful. There's a good film from Mystic Fire Videos called the "Oracles of Ladakh" that shows the oracle tradition. It looks exactly like Siberian shamanism.
Alexandra David-Neel wrote about that back in the twenties in her book "Magic and Mystery in Tibet."
Her book is so great for getting people interested in Tibet and Buddhism! It's a classic, like Lama Govinda's Way of the White Clouds. Both great adventure tales, too.
and loving it all the way!!
Indeed. It is working for you. Personally I go into a Catholic Church and see Mary as a manifestation of Quan Yin, Jesus as a Boddhisatva and the lack of Buddhas as a rather Zen approach . . .
I like churches. Some hate them. Depends on our experience. Catholicism is deeply pagan, the orthodox or Eastern church even more.
Today I watched a documentary on the Tendai Marathon Monks. They run all the way into Buddhahood. They are [insert opinion]
How wonderful.
In the end, it comes down to what works for you.
There might be similarities among the different creeds, but maybe you relate better to the figure of Quan Yin than to Mary's.
I love to visit churches, mosques and synagogues when I am touring a new country, but I know that I prefer Buddhism as my belief.
Tibetan Buddhism is strongly influenced by Hinduism (hence the guru worship, and Tantra), and by shamanism (the "magical thinking" part). The more I learn about Tibetan culture besides the superficial parts that we see as Westerners, the more I learn about how strong the shamanic undercurrent still is. It's fascinating. The most obvious manifestation of that would the be tradition of "oracles", which is pure shamanism.
Yes, it's quite a mixture! I wondered if would be possible to somehow separate out the Buddhism from the other influences, but came to the conclusion that it wasn't realistic.
Another thing I struggled with was the Tibetan language, which reminded me of Klingon.
So where is the original "uncorrupted" Buddhism? Is there even such a thing?
Why worry about it? There are different flavors of Buddhism everywhere, just like Chritianity. It's all good. Or mostly, at least.
in a place where everyone can reach but words can only point
Some people feel that the purest form of Buddhism is in the jungle,
Some feel it is high up in the mountains,
wherever people are practicing love and compassion is where the dharma is flourishing. Temples and all the rest are truly secondary to our own hearts and attitudes.
If one is fortunate enough to make a good connection with a teacher in this life, it doesn't matter if your robes are purple or blue.
One might also see the unfolding. Perhaps in the past the jungle was the best way to eliminate the disturbing emotions and benefit beings.
Perhaps today, the optimal unfolding is in your city or country getaways.
It's not simple to say where dharma is purest, there are well preserved cannons in many places, but as I have read, it is not sufficient for the teachings to be great, the practitioner must be so as well.
May we all meet with great guides in this life.
Thanks guys.
Klingon is a lot easier than Tibetan. In Tibetan breathing in or out effects the meaning - Ay caramba!
Magic has a place for me, strange but there it is. It appeals to some crazy, emotional, arty part of me. The irrational that works is for me quite acceptable. This as people have said is where Dharma does not have to be pure and clinical - that might send us loopy paradoxically.
OM MANI PEME HUM or Abracadabra . . . I likes Magic. Just don't get ensnared by it I suppose . . .
Yes, it's quite a mixture! I wondered if would be possible to somehow separate out the Buddhism from the other influences, but came to the conclusion that it wasn't realistic.
I used to think the same, until I read Tucci's book on Tibetan religion. He has astonishing insights into the different strains in TB. Tibetan language is fascinating, too. Also with many linguistic influences from outside. Surprisingly, there's a fair amount of Indo-European influence in Tibetan vocabulary, from the desert oasis civilization in the Tarim Basin (northern Tibet/southern Xinjiang) back in pre-history.
I find I have a reasonably good feel for Pali, though that might be due to a lot of time spent reading the suttas. Tibetan always felt so alien. I could never remember what the words referred to!
Literary Tibetan is a whole different ballgame from spoken Tibetan or contemporary written Tibetan. The language in scripture and most historical documents is archaic and highly idiomatic, so a dictionary that translates entire phrases is indispensable. If you're learning Pali, that's great! Stick with that. Don't mess with success.
To T. W. Rhys-Davids, "uncorrupted" Buddhism would be what are considered to be the original teachings of the Buddha, as seen on the Pali suttas.
Corrupted Buddhism would be the cultural layers incorporated to the original teaching in the different lands where Buddhism has spread.
Yes, I see. There are some who argue that the suttas themselves were corrupted along the way, but that's a can of worms which is probably best left unopened here.
Well, the suttas tend to revolve around a more or less consistent core which repeats itself, in different words, and under different guises, all over the different suttas in the different traditions.
If we could not at least suspect that this core of teachings can be traced back to the Buddha, would Buddhadharma exist at all?
@Dakini
worship is the wrong word
Regarding Tibetan Buddhism and Catholicism I actually had the reverse. I was hostile to the idea for a long period in my life. After the quenching of my existential angst in Buddhism at that point I became totally comfortable and curious about Christianity.
@Dakini, at times I feel you express a confused view regarding gurus. I find that you say 'gurus' rather than corrupt teachers. The corruption is not caused by the guru status. It is caused for the same reason of corruption in any organization. The world is on fire with ignorance, greed, and anger. In the world there is always corruption. Saying that being a guru causes corruption is wrong. There have been hockey players who smuggled drugs across the border. Suppose someone asks about criminal athletes. So you say 'hockey players smuggle drugs'. Then someone who doesn't know better might think that drugs are a part of hockey. The analogy cannot totally fit the ludicrous nature of saying corrupt teachings (worship) are part of Tibetan Buddhism.
^^^ well said. Teachers and Sangha are idealisations. They are personifications of principles. They are not partial or incomplete except in rare and often outlandish and obvious cases. The important thing is taking the essence/idealisation and leaving the person.
The perfect Buddha, teaching, word arrangement is a magical thing if it transforms . . .
@lobster: I copypasted this link from another post by you:
http://yinyana.tumblr.com/day/2013/08/03
Can we chant a mantra too much? Do mantras really work like magic?
Could you elaborate on this magical side of the mantras?
I thought this was very interesting and intriguing...
^^^ The connection to lineage energy or the mind stream of a particular mantra induction can be very powerful.
In psychological terms we might understand it as manifesting an associated subconscious archetype into experiential being. In other words if you constantly think of sex, you see innuendo or sexual imagery, associations etc in all that you experience.
In magic theory, we bring into our stream of being the associated force or will behind or associated with a mantra/sadhana.
So for example a Medicine Buddha mantra will focus and manifest the associated potential for healing of some sort. Magic thinking is not necessarily superstious, it can involve a deep understanding of how the mind works.
Magical Buddhism is therefore a skilfull means, it is replacing mind chatter (unfocused mind) with a beneficial attribute such as the bodhicitta of Tara.
Does it work? You tell me . . . [Mr Cushion says he likes Magic . . .]
A misunderstanding, perhaps? Gurus (teachers) aren't the problem. Guru worship, a system like Highest Yoga Tantra that requires devotion to the guru, introduces a problematic component. Corruption can show up anywhere, though, whether there's a specific practice fostering surrender to the teacher or not.
I think of magic as having two meanings: the supernatural ('real' magic, as in spells and curses and so on - which I don't believe actually exists), and illusionism ('pretend' magic, like harry Houdini or David Copperfield).
However, I don't associate either of these with Buddhism.
@Dakini I feel that devotion is not the root cause. The root cause is the poisoned mind of a bad guru. A lot of people in my sangha do guru yoga and there is no problem because my guru is not corrupt. Also in your posts I sense a misunderstanding of guru yoga. Do you think the guru wants to be worshipped? I don't think so. It is just skilfull means. As I have heard the student imagines the whole lineage backing them.
Yes, definitely. But it takes two (or more) to tango. The problem is also that accepting that the guru is a representative of the Buddha and the Dharma who can do no wrong leads vulnerable students to put complete trust in the teacher. And the nature of some of the practices, like ngondro, doing prostrations to the guru/Buddha, and visualizing him as a deity (I'm not sure what all is involved), sets people up to be open to suggestion, any suggestion. It's about the potential psychological effect of it.
Also, there are teachers who demand this kind of devotion even at the beginning level, and naive students fall for it. So it's sometimes the teachers who deliberately misrepresent the tradition or misuse the tradition, which causes a lot of confusion.
It's important to inform students before they get in too deeply, or in at all, what's reasonable for the teacher to request, and what isn't, and what a healthy teacher/student relationship looks like. Because it's a foreign culture, so some students think that pretty much anything goes, and some teachers deliberately take advantage of the cultural divide.
Your teacher has a lot of integrity. Not all of them do, though. There's nothing wrong with cautioning people to thoroughly check out their teacher before they open themselves up to complete trust, putting their psyches and spiritual wellbeing in a teacher's hands. It's the responsible thing to do. And these days, more and more sanghas are offering guidelines for students, and also are requiring teachers to sign contracts regarding conduct rules, in recognition of the risks involved.
The field of Dharma studies and practice is evolving in the West, and adapting in response to sometimes tragic occurrences, and that's a good thing. There's a growing demand for transparency and ethics. That may turn out to be one of the West's most valuable contributions to Buddhism.
Here's a good 2-page essay analyzing the nature of the student-teacher relationship and why it can pose problems for Westerners:
http://www.mudra.co.uk/mudra_teacher_part1.html