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Thoughts on Recent Racism Flareups in America

I'll be honest here... when I viewed the recent cases in the news, I see criminals being killed, and the Black Community judging the Officers based on street rumors, and many within the Black Community, reacting with violence and/or disruptive behavior. Our Justice system may not be the best, but it is still better than street justice. If I had to pick a corner to stand behind and support, I probably would have picked the "cops".

My view on all this was shaken a bit when a black friend, whom I respect and have known for a long time, posted on Facebook with support for those wearing "Black Lives Matter" shirts, and questioned why anyone would be offended by this.

My response was that all lives matter, and that labeling creates division and more problems... he replied that I don't understand the problem because I can't, or refuse, to see the problem. This struck a cord with me, and kind of changed my view on all this, as such:

My reality, as a male human born in the US with white skin, would have a different reality of relations with fellow humans than a male with black skin born in the US... It's a trap to try to figure out who is right or wrong in our views when these realities differ and collide. And it doesn't help that we have biased media machines, such as MSNBC and Fox, tricking us to take sides for their political gains. My thought is that it is possible for the black male and the white male to both be right, even though their views differ, if they are being honest in conveying their human experience.

I am finding that I am capable of being more compassionate, understanding and forgiving when I realize that my reality of this world is tied to my personal experience, so my opinions naturally would not fit into the reality of others, and if pushed, I should not be surprised by resistance, as they are just as right in their views as I am in mine.

Now if I'm asked to pick a corner to stand behind and support, hopefully my stance will be "I don't see a corner, it's a circle, and we are all in it"

HamsakaEarthninjaDavidSarahTVanilliCinorjer
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Comments

  • genkakugenkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran

    It's nice to see someone reflect a little ... from whatever vantage point. Thanks.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2015

    @Telly03 said:

    ....My view on all this was shaken a bit when a black friend, whom I respect and have known for a long time, posted on Facebook with support for those wearing "Black Lives Matter" shirts, and questioned why anyone would be offended by this.

    My response was that all lives matter, and that labeling creates division and more problems... he replied that I don't understand the problem because I can't, or refuse, to see the problem. This struck a cord with me, and kind of changed my view on all this, as such:

    My reality, as a male human born in the US with white skin, would have a different reality of relations with fellow humans than a male with black skin born in the US... It's a trap to try to figure out who is right or wrong in our views when these realities differ and collide. ...... Now if I'm asked to pick a corner to stand behind and support, hopefully my stance will be "I don't see a corner, it's a circle, and we are all in it"

    This cartoon has appeared elsewhere on this forum, in this thread:

    http://chainsawsuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/20141204-patreon.png

    Jeongjwa
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    This was posted recently on another thread we had about race in America

    HamsakaJasonVastmindNirvana
  • The problem is the context. It is in response to the presumption that some people, namely the police (more specifically, I guess, the white police), don't think black lives matter. This is despite the fact that they protect and save thousands of black lives every day.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2015

    @person said:
    This was posted recently on another thread we had about race in America

    Yeah. I loved all the middle-class white people who don't have to worry about cops shooting them to death for simply walking down the street criticizing the people who live with this terrorism ever day, and who get justifiably upset when cop after cop gets little more than a paid slap on the wrist for shooting an unarmed person to death in their community. I just wanted to scream at all the pundits like those in the video, "How do you not get it? If you were in their position, you'd be a little pissed off, too. Don't let your relative privilege blind you to the oppression and suffering of others!"

    Rowan1980
  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    @Telly03 says:

    I am finding that I am capable of being more compassionate, understanding and forgiving when I realize that my reality of this world is tied to my personal experience, so my opinions naturally would not fit into the reality of others, and if pushed, I should not be surprised by resistance, as they are just as right in their views as I am in mine.

    Each individual wears a pair of perceptual 'glasses', and maybe a close socioeconomic/ethnic individuals glasses will give you much the same 'vision' as your own glasses.

    Wear a pair from a group you are not a member of, and you may barely recognize the 'same world' you share.

    That seems to be a very hard concept to 'get'. That the world has a different appearance among individuals. Arrogance claims that some 'appearances' are truer than others. But they are just different, that's all.

    lobsterTelly03
  • @Jason said:
    Yeah. I loved all the middle-class white people who don't have to worry about cops shooting them to death for simply walking down the street

    Um, I know I'm new here and all but it's a little disconcerting to see an inflammatory post of sorts from "God Emperor." I'm all about having opinions and stuff but...really? Maybe I missed the report about cops shooting people to death simply for walking down the street.

    ChazEarthninjaDairyLama
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    It probably doesn't do much good to tell someone who clearly and obviously and harmfully feels separation between them and the world they live in that it's an illusion.
    On a deeper level we know that it is. But not everyone is there yet, and if you can't tell by the reactions on both sides (and the non-reaction of so many others) it is still an issue in the samsaric world we live in. A close friend of mine is a Muslim man, I certainly wouldn't dream of telling him something like "It's all an illusion, we are really all the same." Because even though I think he'd understand that and we could have a good talk about that, it's not my place to lessen what he and his family go through due to their religion, and sometimes their race as well as they are from Palestine. I can't tell them they shouldn't feel divided from the rest of the people around them, because the fact is that they do feel that way, and they are kept separate. There are many layers to the lives we lead. No matter how deeply we know something, we can't make someone else know it. Remember that the Phelps feel surely and deeply about what they think and feel, too. It doesn't mean their ideas apply to the rest of us.
    Instead of seeing it as a division of "black lives matter" perhaps think of it more as "black lives matter, too." Because like Jason pointed out, in so may areas of our society, that doesn't seem to be the case.

    VastmindJasonRowan1980
  • @just_so said:
    Um, I know I'm new here and all but it's a little disconcerting to see an inflammatory post of sorts from "God Emperor." I'm all about having opinions and stuff but...really? Maybe I missed the report about cops shooting people to death simply for walking down the street.

    Okay, maybe not walking down the street, but how about walking at a gas station? Thankfully this man didn't die despite being shot multiple times.

    VastmindToshperson
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2015

    @just_so said:
    Um, I know I'm new here and all but it's a little disconcerting to see an inflammatory post of sorts from "God Emperor."

    I'm sure it was a little disconcerting for Eric Gardner to be choked to death for standing on a corner selling loose cigarettes. But I suppose my words are more inflammatory because I think people like Sean Hannity are ridiculous when they attempt to explain away racism by using their own relative privilege, not seeing how absurd and ironic it is.

    If a black man were to step out of his car and lift up his shirt so the cop could see his gun after saying he was armed, as Hannity claims he's often done, I'd say 9 out of 10 times they'd be shot right then and there. Most of the stories I've read where cops have fatally shot an unarmed black person, 'he was reaching for something' was the primary justification given for the shooting.

    I'm all about having opinions and stuff but...really? Maybe I missed the report about cops shooting people to death simply for walking down the street.

    Ever hear of Amadou Diallo? The Danziger Bridge shootings? Steven Washington? There are plenty of stories of unarmed black men and women being shot, tasered, and beaten to death by police. Here's one such story to help get you up to speed.

    I was actually referencing the fear that many in the black community have of the police, but there are actually stories of such things happening, as well.

    Rowan1980silver
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator

    @Jeongjwa said:
    Okay, maybe not walking down the street, but how about walking at a gas station? Thankfully this man didn't die despite being shot multiple times.

    I'm sure that was just an anomaly. /sarcasm

  • @Telly03 said:
    Now if I'm asked to pick a corner to stand behind and support, hopefully my stance will be "I don't see a corner, it's a circle, and we are all in it"

    Unfortunately, I'm not sure if that's really any better. This binary thinking (We are seperate vs. We-r-all-one) is problematic as it's denying us the right to see things as they really are (both and neither). To put it more directly, we should be able to simultaneously acknowledge each other's humanity while still embracing / celebrating / tolerating each individual's intrinsic differences (as there inevitably will be) in a honest clear and non-threatening way.

    I'd like to see this conversion continue with some practical Buddha-Dharma in the mix. Yes, on some level we can talk about dukkha (ignorance and attachment to self) divides people, but how would you propose a realistic direction toward a lasting, peaceful, helpful solution?

    Vastmind
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2015

    @Jeongjwa said:
    Unfortunately, I'm not sure if that's really any better. This binary thinking (We are seperate vs. We-r-all-one) is problematic as it's denying us the right to see things as they really are (both and neither). To put it more directly, we should be able to simultaneously acknowledge each other's humanity while still embracing / celebrating / tolerating each individual's intrinsic differences (as there inevitably will be) in a honest clear and non-threatening way.

    >

    I'd like to see this conversion continue with some practical Buddha-Dharma in the mix. Yes, on some level we can talk about dukkha (ignorance and attachment to self) divides people, but how would you propose a realistic direction toward a lasting, peaceful, helpful solution?

    I'd like to see that too. One of my pet peeves is when people do the opposite, using certain Buddhist ideas as an excuse to do nothing. "Samsara is imperfect and it can't be fixed, so why bother trying?"

    I don't know about specific teachings, but I think being attentive to what's going in the world, as well as being compassionate to the suffering of others, can help us notice societal issues that need to be addressed, which I think goes a long way towards helping address them since a progressive change in our collective consciousness needs to transpire for there to be a lasting, peaceful solution. I think the Mahayana idea of interconnectedness is especially helpful here.

    Vastmindlobster
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran

    #EndWhiteSilence

    JasonRowan1980karastilobster
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator

    @Vastmind said:
    #EndWhiteSilence

    Yes. Even if people find it inflammatory.

    lobster
  • There are many ways to communicate an opinion. Rhetoric comes across as angry and spiteful, and usually serves to stir people up in negative ways. Anyone who doesn't see that as unwholesome has work to do.

    Chazsilver
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran

    @Jeongjwa said:
    Okay, maybe not walking down the street, but how about walking at a gas station? Thankfully this man didn't die despite being shot multiple times.

    As a white man, when I'm approached by a cop I feel safe. For black men being pulled over by a cop can be a potentially life ending encounter regardless of ones behavior. It's not the old fashioned southern good 'ol boy style hatred that causes some policemen to be trigger happy but there is definitely a prejudice against blacks, and other minorities.

  • ChazChaz The Remarkable Chaz Anywhere, Everywhere & Nowhere Veteran

    @person said:
    As a white man, when I'm approached by a cop I feel safe.

    I sure don't. Around here, whites have been shot by cops, under questionable circumstances often enough to make me untrusting of them. When they pull you over, they approach with hand on weapon. That means they're ready to pull and fire that weapon. They'll also call in as many other squads as they can for simple traffic stops.

    A couple white kids were joy riding in a parents car. They reported it stolen. When the kids tried to ditch the cop that pulled them over, he pulled his gun and fired 33 times, killing both. That means the cop had reload at least once.

    Swat raided the wrong house and killed an innocent man.

    I cannot trust the men and women paid to protect us.

    vinlyn
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited January 2015
    I think both sides are partially ignoring the others points. When a black person is discriminated against because of their skin colour then and only then do I consider black rights. It's the same with everybody else though. I would never think of green eyed people's rights until someone is discriminated against for having green eyes.

    There are just too many fronts... If we concentrate on the plight of the black man, we miss the plight of the Vietnamese.

    @Linc posted a cartoon the other day reflecting this showing one house burning and a guy spraying water onto the neighboring house that was not on fire saying "all houses matter". It made its point but all houses do matter. Not just houses with paved driveways or lime green grass but all houses.

    When a black person gets killed, making it about black people getting killed only really perpetuates the problem. What it is is a human killing another human. The discriminated did not have their rights as a black person infringed on but their human rights.

    Human rights is like a blanket and if we keep working on it, it can cover us all but if we keep tugging at the corners it will come undone. My rights, your rights... It's human rights and I want to hear about the life of Steven Washington the human, not another black man shot by a white cop or why Sharpton is quiet when the tables are turned.
    Chazsilver
  • personperson Don't believe everything you think The liminal space Veteran
    edited January 2015

    @Chaz said:
    I sure don't. Around here, whites have been shot by cops, under questionable circumstances often enough to make me untrusting of them. When they pull you over, they approach with hand on weapon. That means they're ready to pull and fire that weapon. They'll also call in as many other squads as they can for simple traffic stops.

    >

    A couple white kids were joy riding in a parents car. They reported it stolen. When the kids tried to ditch the cop that pulled them over, he pulled his gun and fired 33 times, killing both. That means the cop had reload at least once.

    >

    Swat raided the wrong house and killed an innocent man.

    >

    I cannot trust the men and women paid to protect us.

    Fair enough, I guess the difference may be in the history of race relations informing the present rather than just the present situation alone.

  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2015

    @ourself said:
    I think both sides are partially ignoring the others points. When a black person is discriminated against because of their skin colour then and only then do I consider black rights. It's the same with everybody else though. I would never think of green eyed people's rights until someone is discriminated against for having green eyes.

    There are just too many fronts... If we concentrate on the plight of the black man, we miss the plight of the Vietnamese.

    Linc posted a cartoon the other day reflecting this showing one house burning and a guy spraying water onto the neighboring house that was not on fire saying "all houses matter". It made its point but all houses do matter. Not just houses with paved driveways or lime green grass but all houses.

    When a black person gets killed, making it about black people getting killed only really perpetuates the problem. What it is is a human killing another human. The discriminated did not have their rights as a black person infringed on but their human rights.

    Human rights is like a blanket and if we keep working on it, it can cover us all but if we keep tugging at the corners it will come undone. My rights, your rights... It's human rights and I want to hear about the life of Steven Washington the human, not another black man shot by a white cop or why Sharpton is quiet when the tables are turned.

    In the big picture, sure, it's all the same. All lives matter. Everyone's rights matter. But if we only look at it from that perspective, I think we run the risk of blinding ourselves to the existence of some of the underlying roots of these problems.

    If we focus only on the person and nothing else, we may miss the broader societal conditions that are at play, like racism, sexism, etc. It's all about power dynamics, really, and until people understand that, they're not go to understand why fighting for gender equality, racial equality, etc. is so important.

    The abolition movement. The women's movement. The civil rights movement. The LGBTQ movement. These and many like them are all movements trying to correct longstanding power imbalances in our society that take time to change, especially when you have to start by trying to convince people there's a problem in the first place.

    This issue isn't just about police brutality; it's about how our entire criminal justice system is biased against a certain segment of the population. Sure, all houses matter; but when a house is on fire, it matters a little bit more. Once the fires out, then we can get on with appreciating them all.

    personRowan1980
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited January 2015
    @Jason;

    I understand where you're coming from and in a sense I agree but who has time to support all these movements? Wouldn't it make more sense to just have more branches of the same movement since they all pretty well fight the same cause anyways?

    We can have all kinds of movements that continually take focus away from each other or we could have one massive movement that gets behind anyone in need.

    Focusing on the person would bring out the type of discrimination they were up against, surely.

    Just a simple change of the shirt would probably help others get into the plight. Instead of "black lives matter", "black lives matter too"
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran
    People have to stop throwing labels around. It's these labels that our damn minds grab hold of and create an entity out if it

    Black person? I'd say more like a ebony brown? The word itself is wrong. Creating segregation between humans.

    As for police, have any if you ever been a policeman?
    It's not fun. Even when police try and help they get attacked. Domestic violence, needles, drugs.
    Have you ever walked into an unknown household and have to deal with a couple high on meth?
    I've had bottles thrown at my head, I've been head butted. Punched, scratched and spat on.

    Do you know how scary it is when somebody else's blood gets on you and you have to get tests because you may have hepatitis.

    And this is what they do on a daily basis.

    At no point in my career did I ever assault anybody. But the public still yell out police brutality.

    Again it's all these labels. What we have to realise is that it's all humans with all backgrounds and conditioning.

    It's not black people vs police. Or Islam vs Christianity. Or terrorism vs freedoms.

    There are bad things going on, but we can't create labels. Each act is unique as the individuals.

    I'm going to try do good things, hopefully these things create a ripple effect. :)

    Stay compassionate sangha. We are all human.
    DavidsndymornTelly03
  • The video that @jeongjwa posted shows how absurd the situation is. Anyone claiming that cops do not unfairly target black people is covering their eyes.

    In that video, the man was getting out of his car at a gas station, and was shocked that he was suddenly being confronted by police yelling at him to show his license. He leaned back into his car, to get the license, as he was instructed to do. The police then shot him multiple times for doing the thing that they had just asked him to do.

    If you listen to the dialogue, the man is peaceful and confused. He doesn't even know why the police confronted him in the first place. When he asks, they tell him it was for a seat belt violation. A SEAT BELT VIOLATION.

    I am a white male. Most of my interactions with police have been peaceful and professional. A few of them have not. I do not assume that police will be respectful and professional. When I reach for my license or registration, I first tell them where it is and that I am going to reach for it. I then reach for it slowly.

  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    @Earthninja said:

    People have to stop throwing labels around. It's these labels that our damn minds grab hold of and create an entity out if it.

    Labels are just words. The 'entity' created from a label happens inside a person. Labels have no actual 'power' of their own. That said, a large number of people are irresponsible and 'use' labels irresponsibly. The lack of responsibility is the real problem.

    You were a police officer? It would be good for us Buddhists to sit back and listen to a cop relate his/her experiences. That is a missing piece in this discussion. I think it does matter, the experiences of police officers on the ground.

    Having a cop's point of view to refer to is important information. The problem SEEMS to be (this may be my own thing) that being open to a cop's experience on this matter paints you with an anti Black bias. At least for me that couldn't be further from the truth.

    Police work and nursing are a little similar, in that there is a public opinion on what they do that differs significantly in some ways from what we actually DO do. You know those Facebook memes about 'this is what my mother thinks I do, this is what I think I do . . .'

    Where nurses and cops are similar is we deal with people having a really bad day, people not on their best behavior, scared and angry people -- all of whom say and do things in the extreme of the moment. This stuff messes with our heads no matter what we do about it. It's a hazard of the job. The danger and distress and pressure on cops is stuff the rest of us can't picture because we haven't experienced it to a similar degree.

    Earthninjalobstersndymorn
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran
    @Hamsaka‌ you are right about the labels. It's the people imparting then that can be irresponsible.

    I was a cop for 4 years, it's a difficult job and you are spot in with the dealing with angry and scared people. People on drugs are the worst to deal with. You can't reason with them.

    I definitely see it down to the individual in the role. I couldn't think of anything worse than hurting someone. Especially if it wasn't in my own self defence.

    Most if not all cops I know don't want to be on the streets at 3am dealing with the worst situations imaginable. I've been to suicides, domestic violence, stabbings. Bar brawls etc.

    I had a kid once throw a bottle at my head. I arrested him and had a chat to him in the back if the car.
    He was a troubled kid, he attacked me because I was wearing the uniform. That's all.
    I never ended up charging him and drove him home.
    God knows what if look like if that bottle had hit me.
    Another fun Saturday night as a cop haha.

    It's very easy for the public to say. Police should do XYZ in this situation. And if it were a video game, sure.
    In real life so many things can go wrong, we are all human.

    Cameras are great because it would make the police accountable but would also show the public the full situation. Not what the media tells us.

    Oh well. I resigned a few years back and couldn't be happier to leave that job :) the legal system, domestic violence and the public hating you even though your trying to help was it for me.
    Haha.

    Hope you guys are well and happy where you are!
    lobstersndymornHamsakaTelly03
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    We can't force others to stop using labels. But we can change (or stop) how we use them. It can be a lot harder than you think. Try it for a day. Talk to a friend and avoid using labels. It's really only certain labels we need to be more careful about, and the meaning we attach to them. When I described a lady at the park once, I said she was tall, thin, attractive, and Asian with long black hair. I wasn't being racist, it was just a description of who she was because I did not know her name, and because we live in a very, very (as in like 99.8%) white town it was a way to differentiate her so that my description of her stood out more. Is doing that racist? In that sense I don't think so, it's a fact she is of Asian descent. I wasn't implying something based on the fact she is Asian. But add one word in, and that label changes quite quickly. It all comes down to being skillful, including in using labels, because I don't think we can get by in our world without them. We just need to stop assigning certain attributes to them so that when we use a label, we aren't saying more than what the word actually means. "That black guy who drives the Escalade" has a different assigned value in way too many areas of our country. It carries a different weight and meaning to a whole lot of people compared to "Jeff, the blonde guy, drives an Escalade."

    Earthninja
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2015

    @ourself said:
    Jason;

    I understand where you're coming from and in a sense I agree but who has time to support all these movements? Wouldn't it make more sense to just have more branches of the same movement since they all pretty well fight the same cause anyways?

    We can have all kinds of movements that continually take focus away from each other or we could have one massive movement that gets behind anyone in need.

    Focusing on the person would bring out the type of discrimination they were up against, surely.

    Just a simple change of the shirt would probably help others get into the plight. Instead of "black lives matter", "black lives matter too"

    In a perfect world, sure. Just like the IWW's motto, 'One Big Union,' ideally all we need is one big movement towards universal equality. But the reality is that different people have different needs and are often in very different places experientially, emotionally, intellectually, etc., not to mention the fact that not all problems have the same solution. And to be honest, I think these kinds of movements are helped more by being engaged with them than by criticizing them because we think they can do it better. In essence, I'm sympathetic to what you're saying, but I find it slightly idealistic.

  • SarahTSarahT Time ... space ... joy South Coast, UK Veteran

    @Jeongjwa said:
    I'd like to see this conversion continue with some practical Buddha-Dharma in the mix. Yes, on some level we can talk about dukkha (ignorance and attachment to self) divides people, but how would you propose a realistic direction toward a lasting, peaceful, helpful solution?

    1. Right View
    2. Right Intention
    3. Right Speech
    4. Right Action
    5. Right Livelihood
    6. Right Effort
    7. Right Mindfulness
    8. Right Concentration
    Jeongjwa
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran
    edited January 2015
    @Jason;

    Yourself, somebody else (who I'll address on another thread as I can't remember who it was at the moment) and my own logic in a previous post kind of sank my position.

    I know you guys aren't trying to say any one group is more important than any other and maybe there are too many fronts to have just one battle in the war of inequality.

    Maybe we need all the previously mentioned rights groups, I don't know. Human rights should cover us all but until they actually do let the causes fall where they may, I guess.

    I just want us to stop perpetuating the problem of us and "them" and the shirts don't seem to be helping in that regard.
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran

    Here's a bite of 'practical Buddha-Dharma'.....Real Talk....

    An interview with Venerable Pannavati about her Christian-Buddhist path, why there are not more Blacks in Buddhism, and her push for girls, women, and "Untouchables."

    http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=9,12141,0,0,1,0#.VLKGtCvF-So

    Jeongjwa
  • Simply stated, historically and according to our founding constitutional law, Black lives didn’t matter. There’s over 600 years of seeing black as something lesser, and maybe 50 years of a contrary societal opinion.

    If you have a moment, please read the paper I wrote just for this thread B)

    I hope it's helpful!

    VastmindHamsaka
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited January 2015

    My comment about not "seeing" a corner would probably reflect my point better if I would have said not "picking" a corner. My eyes are more open that the corners exist, but by refusing to pick a corner is not opting out of acting, it helps eliminate biases. Biases are responsible for assumptions, which makes it very difficult to act fairly.

    For example; in the Ferguson case, the jurors reported wild differences in testimonies... people can view the same scene but process it totally differently, or even justify lying, based on their biases and assumptions.

    If there were a shooting reported tonight involving a black person and white cop, culture and history would play a huge role in peoples biases, and how the scene plays out in their mind, but all that actually has nothing to do with the truth about what happened in the particular incident, and it would be unfair for both individuals, and their families, to assume anything.

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited January 2015

    @Telly03 said:

    For example; in the Ferguson case, the jurors reported wild differences in testimonies... people can view the same scene but process it totally differently, or even justify lying, based on their biases and assumptions.

    If there were a shooting reported tonight involving a black person and white cop, culture and history would play a huge role in peoples biases, and how the scene plays out in their mind, but all that actually has nothing to do with the truth about what happened in the particular incident, and it would be unfair for both individuals, and their families, to assume anything.

    Wow, that sounds fascinating. I missed the whole thing, since I don't have a TV. But jurors reporting wild differences in testimonies sounds like a topic worth a serious study and analysis. Someone could build a Master's thesis around that.

    Kind of sad, too. What a world we live in! Two (or 12) people looking at the same event see radically differing things. Reality is relative. The mind interferes with perception.

    Hamsaka
  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited January 2015

    @Dakini For a thesis, it would be difficult to determine which statements were intended lies vs biased viewing http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/14/justice/ferguson-witnesses-credibility/

  • Oh, I see. Thank you. It makes sense now.

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited January 2015

    The witnesses don't determine if someone is armed or not. The witnesses don't determine if deadly force is/should be the best course of action to contain/get someone to comply.

    It is undisputed that Michael Brown was unarmed.

    Certain people of the population are seen as disposable....until it's time to fill the private owned prisons, that is.

    The facts speak for themselves...please take the time to read Jason's references in his posts. He didn't come half-steppin'....the facts are there...

  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited January 2015

    @‌Vastmind

    I never heard anyone dispute that Michael was unarmed, but I don't believe being armed is a requirement for cops to use deadly force.

    "Certain people of the population are seen as disposable" not by me

    "Facts" can work both ways, and justice is often determined by which lawyer is the most clever in presenting the facts.

    Please don't pin me in a corner of defending the Cop, that is not where I stand... here's the danger of not picking a corner, if I'm not in your corner, then I must be in the other corner?

    Hamsaka
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited January 2015

    My intention was never to pin you or make you feel such.... I also never said anything about 'corners' ..... I was just participating in the discussion and addressing the latest post....I just was confused by what difference the witnesses make to the situation. There are recent situations that are actually caught on tape...where there is no dispute as to what happened...yet the same outcome....Now, bringing in the lawyers...?? Who do you think can afford and do get the best lawyers? ...due to racism..... Nevermind...TBH...I'm mentally tired of the discussion and the circumstances that my family is in on a daily basis. Damn...I feel so defeated lately..... I'll just continue to hope my Black son doesn't meet such a fate....That's all I can do. I can't expect you to understand fully.

    Real talk...trying to be nuetral is a cop out. ( No pun intended).

    That being said.....I'm glad to hear/see you working out your own stuff in the OP.
    I'll bow out now...if your interested in my own experience...I had a thread not too long ago where I offered my feelings on the recent flareups.

    :)

  • @Vastmind I hear you

  • I can see where I'm viewed as a "Cop Out", but for me at least, it's a step forward from being biased.

  • HamsakaHamsaka goosewhisperer Polishing the 'just so' Veteran

    @Telly03 said:
    I can see where I'm viewed as a "Cop Out", but for me at least, it's a step forward from being biased.

    Not by me anyway. I relate to your 'reluctance' to take a strong stance either way. That would be my default position too, and absolutely no offense or even disagreement is meant to those who DO take a strong stance, either way.

    I can't make myself take a strong stance because I rarely get enough factual information or evidence to take a strong stance on a lot of high conflict issues. I look at those who do take a strong stance and wonder how they are so convicted -- but oftentimes in asking, I get painted with the black brush. Not here necessarily, but in general. So unless I do find a strong conviction in me somewhere, I stay out of it to avoid getting painted. Once painted, I've 'lost' credibility in the discussion and then I'm getting distracted by ad hominems. Eff that :disappointed:

    EarthninjaTelly03
  • pegembarapegembara Veteran
    edited January 2015

    @Telly03 said:

    My thought is that it is possible for the black male and the white male to both be right, even though their views differ, if they are being honest in conveying their human experience.

    I am finding that I am capable of being more compassionate, understanding and forgiving when I realize that my reality of this world is tied to my personal experience, so my opinions naturally would not fit into the reality of others, and if pushed, I should not be surprised by resistance, as they are just as right in their views as I am in mine.

    Now if I'm asked to pick a corner to stand behind and support, hopefully my stance will be "I don't see a corner, it's a circle, and we are all in it"

    Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind.

    One said to the other, “The flag is moving.”

    The other replied, “The wind is moving.”

    Huineng overheard this. He said, “Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving.”

    Hamsaka
  • @pegembara said:
    Huineng overheard this. He said, “Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving.”

    Thanks for that, I think you nailed it:

    So I decided to view taking stances on issues as "attachments", and I worked it all out in my head, but I think I fell for a silly trap... I have made a stance to not take a stance. I have only accomplished relabeling my attachment. Time that could have been better served on the cushion.

    Thinking and talking are the same. How can I pay attention if I'm not listening?

    Sorry for the rambling

    lobster
  • JeongjwaJeongjwa Explorer
    edited January 2015

    Hi @Telly03‌, I share the following (disturbing) link a yet another example of police abuse in hopes to simply educate. I was going to leave this stuff alone, but this case illustrates a lot of details and shows how this stuff usually happens :( :

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/daniel-holtzclaw-alleged-sexual-assault-oklahoma-city#.hwxJ3JOwA

  • Telly03Telly03 Veteran
    edited January 2015

    @‌Jeongjwa I don't know what lesson I'm suppose to gain from this, except that Cops are people too. It's imperative that they are held to high standards due to their positions.

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