In regards to your study or practice, do you ever wonder, "What's the point?"
karasti
BreathingMinnesota Moderator
I guess I am feeling nihilistic or something today. Yesterday, I enjoyed working through my preliminaries, today, while I was going through one of them, I got distracted by a pink unidentified bird at the feeder. So I put down the mala and I sat on my dining room floor and watched the birds for a while. Then the squirrel came in and gave me a dirty look, lol. I went back to my recitations and thought "What the &*%$ is the point of this? I am not enjoying this. I don't feel like it's going to GET me anywhere in my spiritual development. Why on earth am I doing this? I'd rather sit on the floor and watch the birds."
I go through this every so often, it always changes as do all things of course.
I am trying to trust the process, but I think "am I really better off spending time doing this stuff instead of watching the birds?" The answer today is an emphatic no, lol.
I get burn out from anything I jump into and do too much. I have a hard time finding balance.
Do you ever just get tired of it? Whatever it is, study, preliminaries, meditation or whatever.
Comments
So watching the birds became your meditation. Don't give up hope.
Yes! ^ ^ ^
I think so
But then I get irritated with myself for not sticking with the routine I set in place. Then I start to doubt the entire process and think is all the time I will spend doing all these reciting mantras and stuff doing me any good? I think watching the birds does more good.
I think it's just an irritable sort of day. Tomorrow will be better. Or later today will be better. It's not quite 10am here and my dad has called 6 times already. I'm losing my patience, lol.
Maybe it's the full moon rousting you a bit. (It often does that to me - even if I don't know it's full moon - sneaky divil) but I luvs the full moon.
I can't say as I blame you and I feel that way myself sometimes.
If meditation is a chore right now and you have time to sit on the floor and watch the birds, what's the harm in that?
Is there a lot of difference between watching thoughts come and go and watching birds come and go?
@karasti -- Welcome to the REAL world!
More seriously, I think everyone who was ever serious about their practice has feelings of the sort you describe. Actually, I think they are a good thing since those who don't have those concerns are often in a state of la-la-land denial, glue-y grin and all.
So serene! So compassionate! So understanding! Buddhism the beautiful!
Stick it in your hat!!!!!!!
To play the let's-explain game, most often the feelings you describe arise out of expecting too much. Since not expecting anything takes a lot of practice (or a lobotomy), I think expecting something is par for the human course ... and keeps you on course. As my teacher once put it, "without ego, nothing gets done." As the Japanese say, "fall down seven times, get up eight." The only choice is to keep going, keep falling, keep getting up, keep cussing.
The funny part is that even when everything goes haywire, still, something happens. It's like the scent of roses ... mostly you don't smell anything and then suddenly you realize you smell them.
A friend and I used to get together now and then, sit for an hour and then go out to dinner. One night, after we finished sitting, I asked him, "Did you ever notice that whether it's a good sitting or a shitty sitting, still, something good happens?" He looked at me and replied, "Yup." And since neither of us could think of anything else to say, we went out to dinner.
It's not always easy.
Keep on keepin' on.
@genkaku yes. Thank you. A lot of the time I feel something, I can't say it's always joy, or even progress, but something that indicates a sort of forward movement that is nice in some way. But other times, it's not there and you're right, it's that expectation. Thank you for the reminder. Not everything can be roses all the time. Sometimes it's manure instead.
I want my practice (whether meditation or study) to bring joy and peace, and boy, some days it really does not! Darn it anyway! Supposedly one should be able to cultivate joy just from the effort of the practice but the effects aren't always immediate. Like cleaning the bathroom, I hate the process but I like the end result. Except this process takes much, much longer, lol. The funny thing is, the fact we are overly spoiled by immediate gratification is one of the things I dislike about the current state of the world, but I'm stuck in it as much as anyone!
@silver that could be, too. I tend to be greatly affected by weather patterns as well, so who knows. We've been stuck in a mostly quite cold period for a month now and cabin fever is a horrid thing! Thankfully this weekend I get to go out of town so that'll be a nice break.
One of my yoga teachers likes to say "Sometimes it seems we're doing nothing, but that is when everything begins to change." So difficult some days
Then watch the birds.
I sometimes get the feelings of looking at things in a 'get real here and get real now' mind-frame, and actually, if you stop to think about it (oh, the irony!!) that moment you had, that 'what's the point?' instant, was probably closer to your True Nature than any forced, contrived or obligated practice.
Because 'bird-gazing' was practice without the practice. Effort without the Effort.
You were probably closer to "doing it right', at that moment, than at any other deliberate motivated moment of meditation.
I remember in Rigpa there seemed to be a long list of practices to do each day which came to feel like a burden. These days I keep it very simple, so it's much more manageable. I tend to think of meditation as the priority with everything else somewhat secondary.
Where are you trying to get to "Spiritually" that requires you doing anything that you do not want to do?
Teachers/Guides do not ride bikes to your house, deliver literature and ask for your time to persuade you, people go to them to ask questions and receive insight. It's your path, your pace.
I have put aside meditating and learning about Buddhism, but eventually my mind wanders back and I find myself picking it back up, not as a goal, but to fulfill a curiosity or desire... nothing forced.
Also I wonder if an attitude of "I must say X number of mantras per day, speak Y number of prayers, etc in order to reach the goal in Z amount of time" is actually more appropriate to a program of physical exercise ("Lose 10 pounds in 10 days!") than spiritual practice.
Yes, and nature is so revealing.
-Perhaps mindfully watching those bird's was part of todays practice. Could it be those birds and even the squirrel were amazing gifts? As far as burn-out goes, taking a break from any aspect of your practice; without guilt, is always an option...
It is my pace, yes, but in working through a path laid by my teacher, there are numerous things to tick off a list, basically, and the list is overwhelming. I do myself no favors and assign an arbitrary date/time that I'd like to complete this list, and then on days I don't feel like doing it, it messes up my planned pace, lol. It is something I have to let go of, indeed. It doesn't really matter if it takes my whole life to complete it. But it seems like it matters.
I know that everything I need to really know is already there. I know my teacher can only help to point the way, and in that case he can only point the way that he knows. I don't really have an idea of where I am trying to get to. I find joy in moments like the bird watching, or hugging my kids or whatever. But my day is largely the same every day, and the key, supposedly, is finding joy in all those moments. Cleaning the toilet, emptying the ferret litter box, making lunches every morning, and so on.
It's one of those things I understand the intellectual, logical part of, but I'm not able to walk it as much as I'd like. That is what frustrates me. I can't force it, obviously, but it bothers me to know something and not be able to put it into practice for more than a random second here or there. I know it's a process and a life long path (or beyond) but some days, knowing that doesn't matter. Today is one of those days, lol. So I'm just not going to worry about it. Tomorrow it'll be different just as today is so different from yesterday. I want to feel confident in the practice I've chosen. Yesterday I did. Today I do not. I don't like that discomfort
So clearly there is a lesson in there. Just something to sit with for today.
Yes...I have.
Aunt Fede explained it best...... That was the moment you let go...you just didn't know it at the time.
Hello @karasti !!
Sometimes I feel the same. I've began my daily meditation practice 3 weeks ago (even though I'm into buddhism since 2012 I didn't meditate daily) and yes, sometimes it's tough.
My mind is extremely creative and it easily leads to restlessness. As a musician and a computer/mobile programmer, I am always having ideas for new projects and songs, and 95% I think... I end up not doing it. That's when I realized my mind was being a crazy monkey. Sometimes it's really hard to sit down to meditate with it. But I have a few tips that could help you:
That is all that comes to mind right now. Be aware you are not alone in this journey! ha
peace!
This is an important part of buddhsim (at least I think)
I love this
@karasti I'm curious, if I were to ask you right now, "What is the point of your practice?" what would be your honest, immediate answer? In your posts above, you mention wanting it to "bring peace and joy into your life". But when you were watching the birds at the feeder, just watching without inner comment or purpose, didn't you have that peace? And if you hadn't been practicing, would you have taken the time from your busy schedule to just sit and experience this?
So you already have peace and joy. These are transient, fleeting emotions that come and go and what you're trying to learn is not to cling to them. Same with chores and work. The bathroom needs cleaned so you sigh, pick up a mop and clean it. A clean floor is also transient and fleeting. The birds will be back tomorrow and so will the dirty floor.
Do you see the point I'm trying to make? The purpose of practicing anything is to get better at it, whatever "it" is, and learn to do it automatically. If it helps, I can say from my experience it eventually stops being a practice and becomes something you just do.
It's funny you should ask. I met my son for lunch at school and then met my husband for second lunch after that. Little kids are such fun, they are all over and so very open with who they are. One girl I barely know ran up and gave me a big hug. Another little boy told me in secret that his favorite zombi movie is one where a zombie and a human fall in love, lol. My son waved and blew me kisses even though I was right next to him. Blissful moments
On the way to meet my husband, I realized "really, the unsatisfactoriness of life includes Buddhism." Of course, I've known that for a long time. But to realize it and to known it logically are 2 different things. So I was grateful for that.
Yes, I see your point @Cinorjer, thank you.
As far as whether I'd stop and watch the birds normally, I'm not sure I can say. I'd like to say that yes, I would. I grew up in nature and that is where I am most at home, even just watching from my patio door. But perhaps it is more about taking it in than simply trying to observe and record facts about how things work. More just with being there rather than looking at it scientifically which is how I used to view things like that. Yes, there is peace and joy and appreciation in just being and watching. Likewis in a cafeteria filled with 6 and 7 year old kids, even if it's extremely loud! They live and love life in the moment all the time. It's all they know. Time isn't even a concept to them quite yet.
Yes, I know it's a practice and that with time it gets better. I've seen that myself. I don't know why I felt so side-swiped by how I felt this morning. I should have known better not to force the issue with my preliminary practice and just gone on with my day, which is what I did eventually. I should have set it down more gently and just recognized it wasn't happening. Instead I tried to fight it and just ended up mad and overwhelmed. Sometimes I lose my grip, apparently, with the idea that life IS practice, and there is no better practice than that.
Obviously I have a very different life than my monk teacher. He has made it his life goal to do preliminaries constantly. Just every day, day in, day out, year in year out, that is what he does with complete dedication. Sometimes I wish I had that level of dedication to anything. I don't, lol. I get bored and want to do something else. But later when I went back to watching the birds, a quote of Trungpa's popped in my mind. Something like "It's hard, but once we realize it is hard and accept it, it becomes easy." So perhaps that is part of it.
thank you, everyone, always for reading my ramblings and taking the time to respond
once I got to the point in my practice where it was getting somewhere and where I developed confidence in the buddha, I never had those issues since.
if you are burned out on a rite and ritual you may actually be becoming a sotapanna!
I wiki'd it - had no idea what sotapanna was:
In Buddhism, a Sotāpanna (Pali), Srotāpanna (Sanskrit; ch: rùliú 入流, Tib. རྒྱན་ཞུགས rgyun zhugs[1]), or "stream-winner"[2] is a person who has eradicated the first three fetters (sanyojanas) of the mind, namely self-view (or identity), clinging to rites and rituals, and skeptical doubt (in Buddhadharma or the teachings of the Buddha).
Sota-apanna literally means "one who entered (āpanna) the stream (sota)", after a metaphor which calls the Noble Eightfold Path, 'a stream' which leads to Nibbana or Nirvana (SN 55.5). Stream-entry (Sota-apatti) is the first of the four stages of enlightenment.
cool
LOL my stream is filled with sewage, I must have made a wrong turn!
I don't think I can turn back now, I do still have days where I don't want to be introverted. So I jump on the play station. Anything to escape self inquiry right?
What you have to remember it's all your mind. Some days the mind likes Buddhism, some days it doesn't. Don't take it personally
If you had ultimate control you would be forever happy, and always love meditation. But we don't!
Again it helps me to remember that we are living in an illusion. This spurs me on.
I have a hunch that somewhere beyond all the illusion, there is an answer for everything, and the point in practicing is because we communicate what we see and learn. We are who we are. What is...is. Anyways back to my wild hunches.
@zenguitar I just saw your comment about exercise and I laughed, because it's so true. I track my exercise and nutrition similarly and am similarly hard on myself if I feel I failed to meet my expectations. But with my exercise, I let go of a lot of that. I found a better place of letting be and acceptance. The funny part about exercise is, once I get to the end of crossing each day off, then it's like "ok...now what?" Same old, chop wood, carry water, I suppose! Thanks for pointing out the similarities
I totally agree.
@Karasti
Perhaps it might not work for you but..
My solution to the "what's the point?" question simply dissolves
when ever I've moved the question over to "who's really asking?.
"In regards to your study or practice, do you ever wonder, "What's the point?""
It cuts to the chase, taking one from the conventional into the 'ultimate' in one fell swoop....
You were lucky.
We dreamed of being distracted by unidentified squirrels and birds that give us dirty looks.
All we had for distraction was our mind.
Well we had it tough. We never had minds etc.
Perhaps this public information film will help . . .
Excellent! One of my favourites.
It's like 'watching the birds' with the mind you had at that time could be a manifestation of that goal you seek? If you can call it a 'goal'. Being able to be taken up in the moment, fascinated by the birds is a beautiful episode, considering how fast paced and driven we can get.
I don't do anything but meditate, and not daily, but sometimes more than once a day, but it's not 'formal' or formal feeling as it used to be. Just remembering to get quiet and 'feel' the space is how I describe it. I do pick up ways of thinking about something or relating to something, and it's very interesting for a while, but then I catch myself wondering what the heck I'm doing. I don't know if I'm just bored and undisciplined (likely) or if I've sort of 'incorporated' the new idea and it's become part of the background. I'll hope for the latter and plan for the former
.
In the past several months I've noticed I drop 'doing' more "Buddhist" things than I pick up. It bothered me at first, but I have to admit my whole frame of reference has shifted into a place of less suffering, whatever "Buddhist-ey" stuff that I did daily gets dropped off, inevitably, eventually. The 'stuff' might have dropped off but my frame of mind remains attuned to the Dharma, whatever that is in the moment.
I've pretty much stopped studying and reading, it feels like a distraction now. More like trying to experience the moment and hopefully enjoying some of it!
When I first posted, I was pretty vague in what was causing a problem (mostly because I didn't see the point of getting into it because it's not something most people here practice). But just for clarity's sake, it's not my meditation that was/is the problem. I have been meditating daily for several years (well, mostly daily) and that is as much part of my routine as showering is. Some are "better" than others, but I have no issues doing it every day.
My problem yesterday was with preliminary practices, also known as Ngondro. My teacher is a vajrayana teacher, and he encourages his Buddhist students, if they are interested in those higher level teachings, to work towards them. Part of the process is to take refuge vows, then later Bodhisattva vows, then later, Vajrasattva vows. To take the Vajrasattva vows, you must complete Ngondro. Other Tibetan schools also use Ngondro (I believe) as a foundational practice, too. I do not know if they have the same requirements or not.
It consists of outer and inner preliminaries. For my teacher, the recommendation is to do 40 hours of meditation on the outer preliminaries, which are a contemplation on precious human birth, karma, impermanence, and samsara/suffering and understanding what they are and the benefits of liberation from them. I have completed these, though I still contemplate them often.
After that, there are inner preliminaries of which there are 5. They are a series of practices, and each requires 100,000 recitations of various vows and/or prayers along with visualizations and an understanding of what you are doing in each. They are meant to be recited with a quality and dedication, not simply reciting them for the sake of saying the words. Refuge vows, arousing bodhicitta, Vajrasattva 100 syllable mantra, mandala offering, and guru yoga. Along with that, we are recommended to do 100,000 prostrations which we can do along with refuge vow or guru yoga if we prefer.
Once all of that is done, you can take vajrasattva vows and work with the teacher directly on receiving Dzogchen teachings (among other things). My initial goal (which today makes me laugh at myself) was to do 108 of each of the 5 inner preliminaries every day. Which means to completely all 500,000 recitations plus prostrations, would take me 2.5 years if done daily.
My mistake was in assigning a timeline for such a large practice. My meditation and daily living needs to come first, though I am still dedicated to completing Ngondro practices. It's going to take longer than 2.5 years. A lot longer. Even saying our refuge vow/prayer is time consuming to do 108 times. Nevermind all the rest of it. It's rather extensive so I need to be patient.
Anyhow, I'm sure most people don't care, lol, I just thought I'd explain better where I am coming from since so many thought I meant my meditation
That part is going well, thankfully.
On the plus side a senior student found a good Vajrasattva mantra on youtube for me to follow along with so I can learn it faster than trying to work through the Tibetan myself. It definitely helps. I really like the mantra
These are probably the qualms we people in Tibetan traditions might have once in a while.
I personally love to dabble in different Buddhist traditions, and reading the suttas, doing lojong or lam-rim meditation, for instance, all make sense to me.
But when it comes to the insistence on performing prostrations or reciting certain mantras or being told about accumulation of merits, there are also moments when I come to hault and wonder: "Why am I doing this?"
Seems odd to me - one who has no defined Buddhist path - that a philosphy that sees clinging as a root of suffering sets such rituals as a pre-requisite to enlightenment. Am sure I am missing something!
Grateful that birds and bird-song again and again bring me back to the one-ness of the present moment
While Tibetan Buddhism does look to me like Mexican Catholicism gone mad, I am sure that my Zen must look like a bunch of twits making up Buddhism as they go along..
All traditions have developed their own checks and balances.
One can not fairly focus on just one aspect of a tradition without taking into account it's whole offering.
Exactly the question I used to ask. Unfortunately I never got an answer I could really understand. I think "purification" was mentioned, but I couldn't get an intelligible explanation of how gabbling 100,000 repetitions of a load of mantras would actually achieve that. It had the feel of jumping through hoops in the end.
The Vajrasattva mantra is meant to be a purification ritual, but more so in a healing sense (as I understand) rather than repenting in a more Catholic sense. Mostly a way to say "oops, I made a mistake. This is what I did, I regret having done it, I'll try not to do it again, and in order to avoid doing it again, I will do positive actions instead." Of all the rituals, I find Vajrasattva the most helpful, and guru yoga the most difficult. We did a 5 day retreat on guru yoga and now the practice has to be squeezed into so many quite brief recitations.
In talking with those in my sangha who are doing ngondro, the sense I have, being relatively new to it, is that you do change and grow as you go through the process. Eventually there is more realization within what you do rather than just going through the motions. It is, I think, about connecting with the meaning behind the words and rituals, and not simply about performing the ritual/prayers/vows. If I thought it was a negative thing, I wouldn't be doing it. But I'm not a place yet of realizing what it can or will do for me one day. My teacher has been doing them for his entire life, because he finds them so important and so helpful. 30+ years! I do enjoy some of the mantras and find them enjoyable, though being entertained isn't really the point of the process, lol.
@SarahT These are not required practices for enlightenment. Not at all. They are required to get teacher transmission of the Vajrayana teachings. I could just get books by various people online that claim to teach the same information. But to actually get to the point of receiving the more advanced teachings from my teacher, which is what I want, this is what is required. It is not required to be one of his students. He is a Vajrayana practitioner himself but he does not require his students to be. Some of his students are not even Buddhist.
I suspect some of it (going through all these practices) has some to do with weeding out less serious students who perhaps shouldn't have access to the more advanced teachings without being properly prepared. I have never been told that, but it is a sense I get about it. One can certainly be a Tibetan Buddhist and "become" enlightened without going into Vajrayana. Enlightenment isn't something we become or do, but something we already are if we can just manage to realize it. Just different paths to getting to the realization.
My dear you do not wander. Are you in pain? Then what is the real question you ask and how do you help. We archive as we all see together. I've learned the hard way that most people just want to sit. If people stand it is generally in a circle as if someone was the nucleus. Personally me I cry when I realise I'm having a good laugh. Personally I enjoy playing stupid. Personally me I live just like you. Life is presus but such a waist. I'm scared but do not hide. I'm ignorant but do not hide. I'm dying but will not kill
This is natural, normal. Don't hold on too tight, even to "Buddhism". Let the birds teach you.
Some days my pilgrims sandals fit just right. Other days they rub a hot spot. At this time my focus is less concentrated on practice. Much more on cooling down. Perhaps in more ways than one.
Perhaps wondering to yourself 'what in the heck am I doing this for?' is a thought stream of valid questioning, rather than an interference?
It could be interpreted (at least) two ways . . . what a dork, what are you DOING chanting Tibetan words and moving around in certain ways?
Or, what in the heck am I doing? The wide open question
Today is a full moon. For me, I have terrible time concentrating (on anything) during the couple days leading up to and during the full moon. It took me a few years to pick up on this, but now I basically have a 2-3 days a month that I am just not on point with anything. I view it as a natural process that binges and purges with/on my psyche at its will. Maybe today your psyche was just purging. Or it binged. Full moon style?
Last time I looked, still human. So yes. Tired, distracted, angry, euphoric, afraid etc.
For example afraid and confused happened today as I dealt with my response to somone who was drunk and abusive towards a woman pushing a baby with pram. It turned out well but the energy or situation was not easy to move beyond the limitations.
We have to work within our capacity. That capacity, or the present arisings are in flux . . . as ever
Yes, it's not a bad question to ask.
It's an understandable question, it wouldn't come up unless an answer was needed. The answer may be 'shut up and get back on the cushion'. It might be something else, or even an idea trying to make its way into consciousness.
I've never been much of a ritual person, and I know plenty of people get great benefit and satisfaction from ritual. Maybe it's just a temperament thing, but I've wished I had more of a knack for it as well as a bunch of other things I didn't get born with either lol.
I used to spend an hour or two listening to dharma talks, and/or reading a few chapters from the collection of 'dharma' books I've accumulated. Then suddenly (it felt sudden) I just . . . didn't want to. It was uncomfortable. I didn't think "What am I doing here?" so much as "I don't feel like it".
Since I couldn't MAKE that 'I don't feel like it' go away by forcing myself to listen or read, I just let it go, not knowing what else to do. I still meditate and many times throughout the day am 'aware' I am working a path or practice. Then, 'other things' started catching my attention, things that weren't traditionally "Buddhism". I became interested in Eckhart Tolle, then Katie Byron, then Sam Harris (including his book Waking Up) and lately, the nuts and bolts of reason and logic. Fascinating stuff. I don't feel 'farther away' from my year long immersion in Buddhist everything I could get my hands on. It's like stuff I get interested in is 'building' on top of it. What we have of the Buddha's teachings (and those of the monks/nuns/students) is pretty consolidated, and doesn't say much about modern life, or the lay life. But that is the life I am living.
So it follows in my sensibilities to take what I've 'gotten' from the basics, and with this new awareness, explore whatever comes up next.
Yes, Ajahn Chah used to talk about embracing uncertainty, the willingness to be open to experience, to keep exploring, to let go of the need for "answers".
I've never had any major doubts about the usefulness of meditation and mindfulness, but I did grow to question the purpose ( benefit? ) of ritual, mantra recitations and so on. I'm not saying these things aren't of value, but they didn't really work for me.
K.I.S.S.
Absolutely, though I think we all have to find our own version of it!