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Original mind is just a teaching that has too often been given mystical airs by ego's unable to face the threat of it's simpler truths.
"Original mind" is simply a finger pointing at that place within **all **of our meditation practices where phenomena can be allowed to arise, live and depart without being manipulated by our conditioned impulses.
Just a run of the mill example of "another pointing finger being mistaken for the moon".
@Jeffrey said:
Is original mind the same thing as Rigpa?
The Mind or Sems is the Mind of dualisms or the Mind of Karma.
To be in Rigpa is that State of Awareness which go beyond the logic and dualistic thoughts of the dualistic orientated Mind.
So it are not the objects but the dualistic Mind which causes neutral, positive and neutral karma which in turn develops the countless illusionary (temporal) bodies.
To abide in Rigpa means to be aware of ones Natural State or inherent Buddhahood.
This means that one is in a meditative state which does not follow the dualistic objects of the thoughts.
The thoughts are the tools of this dualistic karma Mind and in the Natura lState of (Rigpa)these dualistic thoughts are dissolved in Nature or Dzogchen.
So by NOT following these dualistic thoughts, one does remain in this State of meditation, which is finally not a state of meditation because we do not deal here with an object.
So out of this Nature or Dzogchen comes everything and stays and dissolves back into Nature, this Nature encompasses every thing without discriminations like good and bad etc.
The State of Rigpa is the self Expierence (self Awareness) of this Nature also called the (one`s) Natural State.
@how said: Original mind is just a teaching that has too often been given mystical airs by ego's unable to face the threat of it's simpler truths.
"Original mind" is simply a finger pointing at that place within **all **of our meditation practices where phenomena can be allowed to arise, live and depart without being manipulated by our conditioned impulses.
Just a run of the mill example of "another pointing finger being mistaken for the moon".
Exactly so.
This simplicity is found in the most basic meditation of the Hinayana, the just sitting with the breath, or 'just sitting'.
It can be found in mindfulness, in the silence after mantra. In the 'Be still and know I am God' of the Abrahamic religions.
In the sand mandala returning to dust/sand. The flower raised by the Buddha. The finger pointing of the Zennith.
@SpinyNorman said:
This is one for the Zennies. What do you understand by "Original mind" in Zen? I had a google but couldn't find a succinct description of it. I think it's sometimes also referred to as "original nature".
-My take is Original mind is the space of the mind. The mind absent the conditions of the mind. The space of the mind that just is as it is, while the conditions of the mind come and go. Original mind is what is, absent attachment to the conditions...
@Will_Baker said: -My take is Original mind is the space of the mind. The mind absent the conditions of the mind. The space of the mind that just is as it is, while the conditions of the mind come and go.
I like that approach, but could you elaborate on you mean by "conditions of the mind"? Do you just mean thoughts and feelings which arise, or do you mean it in a broader sense to include family and cultural conditioning built up over a period of time?
@Will_Baker said: -My take is Original mind is the space of the mind. The mind absent the conditions of the mind. The space of the mind that just is as it is, while the conditions of the mind come and go.
I like that approach, but could you elaborate on you mean by "conditions of the mind"? Do you just mean thoughts and feelings which arise, or do you mean it in a broader sense to include family and cultural conditioning built up over a period of time?
-Thoughts, feelings, all constructs; conditions could be love or hate, joy or loathing, etc., and yes, culturalization and experiential constructs etc. Whereas, Original mind is peaceful even though the conditions of mind might not be.
Gaaawwwddd. And folks wonder why Zen brought in the kosaku.
What is original mind in your meditation?
A mind that seeks to deify itself, or separate itself from the chaos, or rely on the same conditioned reflexes that reflect our karmic inertia, is the obfuscation of the answer.
The answer of Original mind is only found in the transcendence of this mental loop,
..or...
in the description of the raft, that having offered transport to the other shore, needs to be let go of in order to continue on ones way.
The very act of trying to contain it, is a misdirection of the teaching's intent.
I think we DO know what 'original mind' refers to....in fact that for me is the point. Original Mind refers to the mind in each of us that was originally in touch with truth. Like before the layers of misinformation, habitual assigning of personal interpretations, before we spent our life piling on the hindrances of wanting and rejecting, before all that there is mind in each of us that can see the truth....we are to 'awaken' to what already is....not 'create' in us something new. Original Mind is the ability to hear the bell. We have always had that Mind....and now we are getting glimpses of who we already ARE.
@Will_Baker said:
Original mind is peaceful even though the conditions of mind might not be.
Original Mind is not contained in states. Peace is stateable and also a calm mind state. As pointed out Original Mind is not contained. Does not have attributes ... not having attributes is an attribute? Hard to describe ...
We might say it is at rest but that is not quite correct. Best to say nothing? Best really to find/experience.
@Will_Baker said:
Original mind is peaceful even though the conditions of mind might not be.
Original Mind is not contained in states. Peace is stateable and also a calm mind state. As pointed out Original Mind is not contained. Does not have attributes ... not having attributes is an attribute? Hard to describe ...
We might say it is at rest but that is not quite correct. Best to say nothing? Best really to find/experience.
Iz plan!
-As I indicated above, my take is Original mind is mind space free of conditions. When I was asked to clarify, I did. I did not use the word peaceful to describe a "state." The space of the mind has no "states" it just is, undisturbed...
@Will_Baker said:-As I indicated above, my take is Original mind is mind space free of conditions.
So unconditioned, not subject to sunyata?
-I wasn't using the word "conditions" in that sense (see the post above in the thread). Nor was I implying Original mind is free of a functional foundation. My take is Original mind is the space of the mind absent the conditions of the mind (again, as I spoke to above). Okay, someone wack me with a stick :-)
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited January 2016
For some reason, when I think of original mind I almost equate it to life before the brain.
How a flower is alive but free from the illusion of distinction and the concept of being self aware.
@Will_Baker said:My take is Original mind is the space of the mind absent the conditions of the mind (again, as I spoke to above).
So the blank canvas, so to speak?
-Imagine a hall, large room or auditorium etc. Mind space (Original mind) would be the space of the room in each moment. The things in the room: carpet, wall coverings people, furniture would be like the conditions of the mind which, in each moment arise and cease. As we practice against attachment, the conditions of the mind come and go. Whereas the space of the mind is always undisturbed. Of course, this is from a Zen perspective, as you requested. As a related aside, this would be distinct from True mind, which would be more akin to "reality." But that's a subject for another thread...
@Will_Baker said: -Imagine a hall, large room or auditorium etc. Mind space (Original mind) would be the space of the room in each moment. The things in the room: carpet, wall coverings people, furniture would be like the conditions of the mind which, in each moment arise and cease. As we practice against attachment, the conditions of the mind come and go. Whereas the space of the mind is always undisturbed. Of course, this is from a Zen perspective, as you requested.
That's much the way I think of mind generally, a space which is occupied by various mental furnishings. And rather like the actual space in a room, it feels bigger the less that is in it. I have practised noticing ( actual ) space as an element, it does feel quite similar.
@lobster said: @Will_Baker I would be interested in any thread you start on 'True Mind'. Your analogy for original mind works quite well for me. Many thanks.
-When I have a free moment you shall have your thread...
Comments
According to one whispering zafu....
Original mind is just a teaching that has too often been given mystical airs by ego's unable to face the threat of it's simpler truths.
"Original mind" is simply a finger pointing at that place within **all **of our meditation practices where phenomena can be allowed to arise, live and depart without being manipulated by our conditioned impulses.
Just a run of the mill example of "another pointing finger being mistaken for the moon".
The Mind or Sems is the Mind of dualisms or the Mind of Karma.
To be in Rigpa is that State of Awareness which go beyond the logic and dualistic thoughts of the dualistic orientated Mind.
So it are not the objects but the dualistic Mind which causes neutral, positive and neutral karma which in turn develops the countless illusionary (temporal) bodies.
To abide in Rigpa means to be aware of ones Natural State or inherent Buddhahood.
This means that one is in a meditative state which does not follow the dualistic objects of the thoughts.
The thoughts are the tools of this dualistic karma Mind and in the Natura lState of (Rigpa)these dualistic thoughts are dissolved in Nature or Dzogchen.
So by NOT following these dualistic thoughts, one does remain in this State of meditation, which is finally not a state of meditation because we do not deal here with an object.
So out of this Nature or Dzogchen comes everything and stays and dissolves back into Nature, this Nature encompasses every thing without discriminations like good and bad etc.
The State of Rigpa is the self Expierence (self Awareness) of this Nature also called the (one`s) Natural State.
KY
Mind is also naturally luminous. This is the most explained version of Mind regarding Sutra- , Tantra- and Dzogchen texts.
KY
Exactly so.
This simplicity is found in the most basic meditation of the Hinayana, the just sitting with the breath, or 'just sitting'.
It can be found in mindfulness, in the silence after mantra. In the 'Be still and know I am God' of the Abrahamic religions.
In the sand mandala returning to dust/sand. The flower raised by the Buddha. The finger pointing of the Zennith.
Original Mind. Don't leave home without it.
original mind = bhavanga citta?
the citta that we have during our sleep?
the citta that has an object which we brought forward from the last thought (cutti citta) of the previous life and the first thought of this life?
-My take is Original mind is the space of the mind. The mind absent the conditions of the mind. The space of the mind that just is as it is, while the conditions of the mind come and go. Original mind is what is, absent attachment to the conditions...
I like that approach, but could you elaborate on you mean by "conditions of the mind"? Do you just mean thoughts and feelings which arise, or do you mean it in a broader sense to include family and cultural conditioning built up over a period of time?
-Thoughts, feelings, all constructs; conditions could be love or hate, joy or loathing, etc., and yes, culturalization and experiential constructs etc. Whereas, Original mind is peaceful even though the conditions of mind might not be.
Gaaawwwddd. And folks wonder why Zen brought in the kosaku.
What is original mind in your meditation?
A mind that seeks to deify itself, or separate itself from the chaos, or rely on the same conditioned reflexes that reflect our karmic inertia, is the obfuscation of the answer.
The answer of Original mind is only found in the transcendence of this mental loop,
..or...
in the description of the raft, that having offered transport to the other shore, needs to be let go of in order to continue on ones way.
The very act of trying to contain it, is a misdirection of the teaching's intent.
True
If the theory of evolution is correct, our "original mind" was very animalistic. Aka "monkey mind".
I think we DO know what 'original mind' refers to....in fact that for me is the point. Original Mind refers to the mind in each of us that was originally in touch with truth. Like before the layers of misinformation, habitual assigning of personal interpretations, before we spent our life piling on the hindrances of wanting and rejecting, before all that there is mind in each of us that can see the truth....we are to 'awaken' to what already is....not 'create' in us something new. Original Mind is the ability to hear the bell. We have always had that Mind....and now we are getting glimpses of who we already ARE.
Nothings changed
Meh. Oi dunno.
Or reptilian mind?
Gaaawwwddd. And folks wonder why Zen brought in the kosaku.
:-)
Original Mind is not contained in states. Peace is stateable and also a calm mind state. As pointed out Original Mind is not contained. Does not have attributes ... not having attributes is an attribute? Hard to describe ...
We might say it is at rest but that is not quite correct. Best to say nothing? Best really to find/experience.
Iz plan!
-As I indicated above, my take is Original mind is mind space free of conditions. When I was asked to clarify, I did. I did not use the word peaceful to describe a "state." The space of the mind has no "states" it just is, undisturbed...
So unconditioned, not subject to sunyata?
-I wasn't using the word "conditions" in that sense (see the post above in the thread). Nor was I implying Original mind is free of a functional foundation. My take is Original mind is the space of the mind absent the conditions of the mind (again, as I spoke to above). Okay, someone wack me with a stick :-)
For some reason, when I think of original mind I almost equate it to life before the brain.
How a flower is alive but free from the illusion of distinction and the concept of being self aware.
So the blank canvas, so to speak?
-Imagine a hall, large room or auditorium etc. Mind space (Original mind) would be the space of the room in each moment. The things in the room: carpet, wall coverings people, furniture would be like the conditions of the mind which, in each moment arise and cease. As we practice against attachment, the conditions of the mind come and go. Whereas the space of the mind is always undisturbed. Of course, this is from a Zen perspective, as you requested. As a related aside, this would be distinct from True mind, which would be more akin to "reality." But that's a subject for another thread...
@Will_Baker I would be interested in any thread you start on 'True Mind'. Your analogy for original mind works quite well for me. Many thanks.
That's much the way I think of mind generally, a space which is occupied by various mental furnishings. And rather like the actual space in a room, it feels bigger the less that is in it. I have practised noticing ( actual ) space as an element, it does feel quite similar.
-When I have a free moment you shall have your thread...
Hooray