A conflict of fools-suffer them or ditch them?
karasti
BreathingMinnesota Moderator
The past few days since the attacks in Paris, I've run into a conflict. I wonder what you fine people think, or what you do in your own lives.
Buddha has that famous quote, something about being better off alone than keeping the company of fools.
Verse 61. Do Not Associate With The Ignorant
If a wayfarer fails to find one better or equal, steadfast he should fare alone for a fools no fellowship.
But as we discuss almost every week in our local sangha, all of these challenging people in our lives are our best teachers.
Where do you draw the line? I am not talking about surrounding yourself only with people like you. I have friends and family from other beliefs, religious,political and otherwise. But there are some local classmates and acquaintances who have been posting horrifically racist, bigoted comments about Muslims. I know that this is based in fear, and when mixed with anger it just becomes so insidious. When a guy I grew up with called me an idiot and told me he hopes the Muslim wolves come here to burn my children alive to teach me a lesson about how compassion isn't the answer, well, I unfriended him. We live in a small town, but I rarely see him. I'm hoping it stays that way. Another man who I don't know and lives in a neighboring town friended me after offering to buy an item I had for sale. After seeing his Aryan Brotherhood posts and again with the anti-Muslim, anti-refugee posts, I refused to sell him my item, unfriended him and blocked him. I was not comfortable meeting him in person.
But it honestly wasn't all that easy to decide to do that. I wondered if it was a missed opportunity to engage them and perhaps participate in discussions that would have opened a door. But they appear much like "lost causes" and I just couldn't stand to see their ignorant, hateful, hurtful comments anymore. I have friends who are Muslims, from when we lived in another city. I just could not stand to associate with people while at the same time trying to support my friends.
Of course, we all have to make decisions based on a lot of factors. But do you ever run into this conflict? Do you suffer the fools or walk away from them? I wondered if maybe our daily lives offer enough challenging teachers to fulfill those practices. And also if perhaps letting go of people who are not open to listening is part of learning, too.
Comments
I usually end up being the one they block.
Just recently my oldest brother blocked me for pointing out the lies in the propaganda he posted in support of Stephen Harper.
It's disheartening when family members turn out this tired rhetoric about Muslims in general and so against the refugees when pretty much all of us came from refugees, wanderers and war mongers. That's any of us that have bloodlines that left Africa.
I like to think the tide is turning and the majority of us see ourselves in those we would label "other".
Btw, did you ever notice how small Africa was always depicted on the world maps before Google Earth? They always showed it as just a bit bigger than South America but it's freaking massive.
In these two situations, I think you did the right thing, @karasti. Most all the stuff you post demonstrates a very level-headed individual.
To @ourself - It's a touching, heart-felt hope you have that the tide is turning; but the only thing we can know is if the tide is turning in our own individual hearts and minds. Just staying with our own 'here and now' is quite the challenge. And no, I never did notice how maps made Africa look less impressive, size-wise.
Welcome to picnicking in the lesser hell realms ...
Great question @karasti
I'm bad
It is all good 
Other cliches by request ...
@karasti
The problem with dividing a line between those you think are OK and those who you think are fools is that we are** all** actually both OK and fools.... and the only thing supporting such a drawn line is the human ego.
Look to your meditation. It's the boundary's drawn between self and others, that truly supports ignorance.
This is SO RELEVANT to me right now.
Metta,
_ /\ _
@karasti -- With respect, it is hard not to notice that sometimes Buddhists lean over backwards so far that they are bound to fall on their ass.
"Best teachers?" Well, maybe what such people are teaching is a lesson not so much in humility as in duck-and-cover. Is there some law that says only those who are unpleasant are "our best teachers?" That's a bit much, don't you think?
Who or what, precisely, is not "our best teacher?" Does the fact that anyone might recognize his or her own capacity for foolishness imply that foolishness in another is any less foolish?
I was once talking with my Zen teacher about another Zen instructor who was something of a sociopath. I was surprised at my teacher's openness about this other fellow: After relating a couple of anecdotes that sketched a self-centered foolishness, my teacher commented simply, "I am finished with him."
And that struck me as a pretty good teaching: "I am finished with him."
Just thinking out loud here.
@karasti
"Verse 61. Do Not Associate With The Ignorant"
Ignorant means without knowledge. Such a condition would remain so without teaching, which to a degree means to involve oneself (if you are to be the teacher). If you are the student, you would have no teachers if the above verse were taken literally.
Of course, there will be those who remains "fools", long after the ignorance has been resolved. Those are two different things. Yet, I wonder...would the fool remain a fool for long, should they continue to view enlightenment in action? For even after knowledge has been gained, a certain amount of experience is needed to forge it into wisdom.
As with all things, be mindful of your action and words. There is no one correct answer here as all people have varying levels of understanding, compassion, patience and resolve.
When people go so far as to post bigoted messages on social media or otherwise make overt displays of intolerance, they are often already quite determined in their views. Debate seldom changes their viewpoints. And the only thing you can do is to refuse to associate with them.
You go to a shoe shop.
You buy a pair of elegant, beautiful, practical day-to-day shoes.
They're really lovely.
But.
They begin to pinch at the toe.
Then the heel rubs.
And you get blisters, and they smart.
So you leave the shoes at the back of the wardrobe.
Do you take them out a week or two later, just to see whether the fit is better now?
I don't think so....You'd LIKE to try....
But....
You don't want to risk it.
But they're good shoes.
They're nice. Elegant. You hate to dispose of them, when you've invested so much....
So you put them at the back of the wardrobe, and keep them, even though the fit isn't good, and even though they pinch and give you blisters....
What would really be the most sensible thing to do....
Really?
Here is a nice excerpt by Gil Fronsdal about equanimity:
Source: Equanimity, adapted from a talk by Gil Fronsdal, May 29th, 2004
The traditional phrase from cultivating equanimity as a brahmavihara is: "All beings are the owners of their own karma. Their destination (in a Hell realm, a Heaven realm, or Nirvana) results from their own actions, and not my intentions for them."
If you see some possibility that this person will change their position, then by all means speak. The Buddha never meant for his followers to sequester themselves in an echo-chamber. Throughout the Pali canon, he and his followers regularly chided, criticized, and tried to educate ignorant individuals. But you can only do so much. Even the Buddha couldn't convince everyone, and he didn't lose sleep over those who chose to ignore his wisdom. Sometimes those individuals realized that they were perpetuating suffering for themselves and others, and sometimes they did not.
We know that hatred, wrath, blood lust, vengefulness, fear, etc. are all manifestations of ignorance and aversion, and they result in suffering. They have been around forever. They are inherent to an uncultivated human mind in the face of the Eight Worldly Winds. In fact, the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta begins with King Ajatasattu swearing war upon his enemies:
Doesn't sound too different from our modern-day war rhetoric, does it? It's as old as time. See it as such. Know that sometimes you are better off investing your daily karma in things that affect real, material change in the situations that trouble you. For example, arguing with someone on the internet drunk on the bittersweet liquor of ill-will is not likely to make much change in the world. Volunteering or donating to Doctors Without Borders probably will be a better use of your time.
Many thanks @Glow
Good info. Right Speech.
This idea of equanimity, which does develop, without doubt. Many here are aware of its increasing 'Middle Way' centering.
It means in time and with mindfulness we can increasingly deal with more conflicted people and situations.
Starting from our maintained balance and equanimity ...
Bodhisattva Prayer for Humanity
May I be a guard for those who need protection
A guide for those on the path
A boat, a raft, a bridge for those who wish to cross the flood
May I be a lamp in the darkness
A resting place for the weary
A healing medicine for all who are sick
A vase of plenty, a tree of miracles
And for the boundless multitudes of living beings
May I bring sustenance and awakening
Enduring like the earth and sky
Until all beings are freed from sorrow
And all are awakened.
Shantideva Indian Buddhist sage 700 A.D. Prayer performed each morning by His Holiness the Dalai Lama
http://www.worldhealingprayers.com/3.html
Sounds like good plan ...
Thank you for this conversation. I needed it after reading one too many news stories today. We must, as Thich Nhat Hanh also reminds in his take on Buddhism's Five Precepts, learn both deep listening but also to protect ourselves in what we "consume", including the aggression recounted in the media and social media. Somewhere between the two, lies a healthy equanimity:
Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful speech and the inability to listen to others, I vow to cultivate loving speech and deep listening in order to bring joy and happiness to others and relieve others of their suffering. Knowing that words can create happiness or suffering, I vow to learn to speak truthfully, with words that inspire self-confidence, joy, and hope. I am determined not to spread news that I do not know to be certain and not to criticize or condemn things of which I am not sure. I will refrain from uttering words that can cause division or discord, or that can cause the family or the community to break. I will make all efforts to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small.
Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful consumption, I vow to cultivate good health, both physical and mental, for myself, my family and my society, by practicing mindful eating, drinking, and consuming. I vow to ingest only items that preserve peace, well-being, and joy in my body, in my consciousness, and in the collective body and consciousness of my family and society. I am determined not to use alcohol or any other intoxicant, or to ingest foods or other items that contain toxins, such as certain TV programs, magazines, books, films, and conversations. I am aware that to damage my body or my consciousness with these poisons is to betray my ancestors, my parents, my society, and future generations. I will work to transform violence, fear, anger, and confusion in myself and in society by practicing a diet for myself and for society. I understand that a proper diet is crucial for self-transformation and for the transformation of society.
http://www.buddhistbootcamp.com/2011/09/five-wonderful-precepts.html
I'm having this problem too. My Facebook newsfeed is pretty conflicted right now. So much redneck crap to wade thru. For now I've decided to keep my intolerant friends.
I had some luck yesterday with causing a friend to remove his ignorant posts. I guess he didn't think about how some of the stuff he was posting was being received. I really think he is not a bigot but just didn't think it thru.
I don't think I should ignore the problem. We need to talk about it.
Ignorant people you can find everywhere, the best solution is to stay away from them if its possible. If you have to be with them for a certain time, try to see that they suffer, and dont know how to handle their suffering in a proper way.
Afterall we are all ignorant sometimes, so try to forgive them for their unskillfull actions, dont blame them to hard.
Dhammapada 78 - The Wise
You're not wrong. Just like some things I struggle with. Say hi if spoken to. Lend help if needed. Beyond that, don't seek out, don't involve yourself in matters.
If its NOT a co worker....or someone about some other type of business......I ditch. Quick. Not hatefully....just an indifference. It's alot more complicated I know...but ..my inner circles I would like to keep more like minded. In various ways. If its business...I keep it that way. Especially if I feel you want my head on a platter...hahaha....for whatever reason....haha....I limit who I call friend and/ or associate. The older I get...I find myself spotting people that should only be around for a season....or two. Some are lifetimes.
Disclosure...I don't do any social media .....
And yet, I still talk to myself.
Thank you everyone for taking the time to read and reply. Yes, I agree, we are all ignorant sometimes. But there are some here who seem to be ignorant most of the time.
I was reminded last night by a non-local sangha member to remember that their expressions, their anger, their ignorance, isn't really who they are. I know that, of course, but it was a good time for a reminder.
Rather than focus on the negative and the people who are being so hurtful and hateful (I just read on the FB wall of an acquaintance (not friends but a friend commented on it) that we should bomb the entire country of Syria so we don't have to worry about any of them. Sigh. Anyhow, I contacted the director of refugee services in my state and am waiting to hear back about what can be done to help whether in resources, letter writing, or whatever. I wrote my governor and politicians in support of refugees. As the saying goes, I'd much rather support something I care about than bash something I don't. I feel better today. I try to remember also that everyone spouting off their fearful, angry opinions doesn't mean it will change anything. President Obama is pretty set on bringing refugees here. I just hope that what they arrive to isn't groups of angry rednecks.
We've settled a lot of refugees over the years. Hundreds of thousands of them. Not a single one has committed a terrorist act. Which is more than I can say for some of the born and raised Americans.
While I wish conflict on no one, I am glad I am not the only one going through this conflict at least.
@genkaku Indeed, yes. I agree.
Who shared the Bodhisattva poem? @lobster? One of my favorites. I look at that verse in the bodhisattva guide often. It was part of why I decided to change the channel from being upset with neighbors to focusing on something more positive.
What if he/she is your family member?
@AjeevakDharmana I would have the same conflict. I have family who I am "estranged" from because I have made a conscious choice not to see them or interact with them. I don't associate with them any more than random people I see. I live in a very small town, so these are people I know and see every day, people I grew up with, I know their kids, their parents, their coworkers, everything. They aren't just faceless random people online like so many interactions.
Anyhow, if one of my children behaved that way? I don't know, I guess. But even if I love somebody it doesn't necessarily have to mean inflicting pain on myself just to stay in interaction with them. Racism and other things tend to run in familial beliefs, thankfully I was not raised that way so neither are my kids. But perhaps if one went off the rails and turned into a huge racist spouting this same kind of stuff, I would probably have to distance myself from them, too. Not saying it would be easy to do so, and I can't say for sure without being in that position. But I would rather distance myself than to continue the circle of arguments which eventually no doubts leads to more intense arguments and saying hurtful things. I'd rather say nothing and walk away than to hurt them back.
Tee Hee.
What if it is you! Ay curumba ...
I will not be posting my usual list of faults, ignorance etc. People might mistake it for humility ...
The first wheel, the starting right spoke, the Hinayana wheel of compassion starts with ... [did you guess ...] ourself.
Not maybe, not later on, not dismissively or as pass over.
Long Live the Hinayana! Down with cushions! Praise the three jewels! [lobster rants into the distance ... ]
Isnt there a diff between being ignorant and being downright venomous?
On a case by case basis so it's hard to say where the line is without the particulars of the individual situation. For the people you mentioned, I would have ditched them.
I don't think so. "Venomous" would just be a large amount of ignorance IMO.
I used to have a lot of ex-army friends as facebook friends too. Over time I've just binned them. Racist post = binned. Bigoted post = binned.
I know racism (etc) exists, I just don't feel the need to be subjected to it when I'm having a cup of coffee and chilling.
The internet adds another layer of difficulty. Even amongst people who live just down the road, we communicate mainly online. It's a funny thing. In "real" life, we aren't friends. (me and this guy from the other day, my old classmate). We never were friends. But after our class reunion last year, many of us friended the others, even though we never spend time together or anything. He would never say such things to my face. Ever. He would consider it rude and impolite. Yet the internet world allows us to spout every random thought and fear without regards to manners or who it hurts.
I mostly stay calm, I don't get worked up over people online. But I do think about it a lot. If I didn't use social media, these problems would be reduced 100% because it's so very rare that they come up in normal life. Only online. But at the same time I find it interesting the ways we are all hypocrites and how we judge and compare our hypocrisies.
Yes, and no. There are no end of challenging folks to teach us - I think it is foolish to cling to specific fools. I can probably be accurately described as a social isolationist. I love people and loathe being around them...for a multitude of reasons that are basically all the same and encompassed in your post. I would rather hang out here and watch all of you fine people on their best behavior and pretend that you don't have the same ugliness inside you as everyone else - including me.
And they are exactly the same people they were yesterday. Well, if we ignore the fact that we are not who we were even a moment ago...but until this Paris attack, it was hidden from you. If the attack had happened a month ago, they would have demonstrated this fear and anger last month instead - and you would have been forced to face this ugliness about them sooner. I began to write, "You would have learned about his ugliness sooner" but think maybe you already knew.
How many of your family, friends and acquaintances are not capable of allowing fear and anger to bring them to such a point - if not towards you, towards someone else?
Though they are from a television show, I love these exchanges so much, I have memorized them:
"'Master, do we seek victory in contention?'
'Seek rather not to contend.'
'But shall we not then be defeated?'
'We know that where there is no contention, there is neither defeat nor victory. The supple willow does not contend against the storm, yet it survives.'"
and
"But Master, how do I not contend with a man that would contend with me?"
"In a heart that is one with nature, though the body contends, there is no violence."
All the time.
My lifestyle and choices are called into question a lot - even within this forum. I cling to my raft, ahem... my wife - and I cling to myself, but I am working on that one. Everyone else is a teacher in passing. I respond and react, or rather, I try to respond and react to them in the essence of a quote by Ram Dass who said once, "Right now, in this moment, I love you more than I've ever loved anyone...and I don't care if I ever see you again."
And for what it is worth, I don't find you challenging at all - and you are one my more beloved teachers. It doesn't always take a @$%# to be a good teacher.
@yagr, aww, thank you
I was thinking today about an exchange along the same lines (a friend of a friend who declared himself heartless when it comes to Muslims). I was talking to our sangha leader about why I get upset. It really wasn't about being mad at him. Yes, I didn't like what he said. But it is more so upsetting to me that people live so far apart from their true nature. The clouds covering their sun are stormy ones. Some don't even seem to realize the sun is there, storm clouds is all they know. Which is sad, and I wish I could help them to understand there is something so much better, and that it is worth looking for the sun. But they are like Howie on Benchwarmers, terrified of it.
OP, are you learning anything constructive from those screeds by the bigots and racists? If not, they're not your teachers. I can't imagine they'd have anything to teach, plus, they can be a real drain on one's energy. Better to spend your time in uplifting pursuits. Life is too short, really.
If every moment of this lifetime is precious, and we have no way of knowing which day will be our last, shouldn't we be discerning in how we spend that precious time? Seeking out Aryan Brotherhood posts and other harangues, why would anyone do that? To what end? If someone approaches you and dumps on you, that's different. You can see they're caught up in samsara. You can hope they give up the hatred someday, and go on your way. But there's no need to actively seek out negativity, on the internet or elsewhere. There are so many better ways to spend one's time precious and limited time.
It's not as if I am seeking them out. I'm not posting on random news pages or anything. These are conversations happening on the walls of friends and relatives, with local people who I see every day.
I don't usually take much away from them. But I learn more about myself in what I am saying to them, if that makes sense. The Aryan issues are going on in the school my children attend, so they are there whether I seek them or not. I don't bury myself in it or anything, but they are also people I live with in our community and it's not avoidable without significant effort.
I try not to draw lines, thats ego.
either I act or I dont act based upon my moral principles.
In this case, I woud have sold my item to the arian brotherhood, for it is just trAde. Unless it was a gun or bomb or poison they would use on muslims or others.
The muslim wolf comment Guy...I would have removed his comment on MY post. For it is my post and my perspective and his insult was just rude. I would not have Blocked him.
We all are wise and stupid sometimes. I try to create karma on the wise and ignore the stupid so it slowly fades.
It was not simply that he commented once and that was it. Most of what he shares on FB is extremely denigrating to various groups of people by race, sexuality, religion. He has nothing positive to share and does not want to have conversations about what he posts. There was no value in our remaining "friends" and we would never be friends in normal life. There was no value to reading his hateful posts every day. I didn't block him, but I 'unfriended' him so our paths online would no longer cross.
The Aryan guy, I was not comfortable driving to another town to meet him. After he friend requested me (which is common, I admin a page and people frequently friend the admins to make communication easier) not only did I see what he was posting, but he saw me posting in support of Muslims and refugees. He is only available during the day when my husband cannot accompany me. We live in very small, rural towns. So even meeting in a parking lot doesn't guarantee anyone is around. The extremeness of what he was posting and the language he was using led me to feel unsafe meeting him.
Not justifying just trying to explain. Not saying my reasoning was correct. It just is what it is.
Even though my neck of the woods is a bit "redneck" most of the people, despite their lip flapping, are good at heart. There are some, whoever, who are quite scary in their confederate flag waving and gun carrying. A neighbor kid (well, he is 21) beat the crap out of a friend of his brother's in order to gain entry into an Aryan brotherhood group. Several other people the same age have done the same. Our town only has 3000 people. I'm not interjecting myself into that when I see people posting sympathy towards those groups.
I do however practice tonglen for all of them and wish that their hearts will open.
Point is, there is a diff. between a guy who has silly stereotypes about certain people and a guy who openly wishes ill upon another (as in karasti's former fb friend). In the case of thelatter, is there any need to even think about staying awaay from such ppl?
How sensitive are we to homophobia, sexism, islamphobia, dharma fanboys?
Buddha for Queen! Know Dharma, No Peace! Bodhisattvas Unite!
More slogans on request
Wow, that does sound challenging! How are your kids handling this? I assume you talk to your kids about this and help strengthen healthy values in them.
IDK. Now that you know what some of your townfolk and neighbors are thinking, now that they've revealed their hidden nature, you can put up a kind of psychic shield, and also build a cocoon around you and your family of friends who share your values. You can be polite to people, but keep your interactions superficial with the ones you disagree with. I don't think people like that can be persuaded, so I think trying to talk to them about those matters would be pointless and ultimately, aggravating.
The Buddha had criteria to guide him in practicing "right speech": is what you want to say timely, truthful, likely to be constructive or productive, and well-intentioned? Look up the sutras on "right speech", and see if the guidance helps you.
I agree. The difference is the degree and amount of their ignorance.
If you want to try to help them somehow, or examine your own responses to them, then thinking about it would make sense IMO.
For me, the question is whether to confront/engage or just ignore it. A close relative recently made a disparaging post about refugees, dismissing them with "who cares about a bunch of crappy refugees?" (obscenities removed.) While this may not be as hateful as "kill them all", it's still dehumanizing. Do I challenge this or just ignore it? If I ignore it, I feel like a coward, yet challenging him may lead to ill will and closed doors. "Challenging" may be the wrong approach too, but I doubt that I'm subtle or wise enough to show him how self-destructive such an attitude is.
Hey @nakazcid - I think if you're hesitant to speak up at this time, it may be your instincts are right - and there will always be another opportunity in the future, should it come up again. Timing can be important in these matters for various reasons.
Such good questions are being raised on this thread! I see exactly what you mean, nakazcid. To acquiesce could be construed as giving tacit approval. Sometimes it's important to speak out, to convey the message that racist or sexist speech is not mainstream and isn't to be tolerated. (I'm reminded of my own participation in threads on this forum in years past, on the topic of "speaking out". ) And yet, I just advised the OP that to do so would be pointless and would only lead to anger and aggravation!
I think each type of situation needs to be evaluated independently, as to whether speaking out would constructively advance a cause, and whether it's safe to do so. It can be a hard call.
But in your case with your relative, I think that voicing your opinion calmly, vs. in a challenging manner, might help you feel better and could also offer food for thought. Something like: (In response to "why care about....?") "Because it could be you someday, who may require the kindness of strangers in a time of distress in your life. I don't want to live in a world where people routinely turn their back on each other, do you?"
I guess for me, when people are posting their opinion (no matter how offensive it might be) I largely ignore. If I see a whole lot of it I might either unfriend them or stop seeing posts in my feed. It's when people share an offensive picture, but add their own horribly incorrect facts onto it that I jump in. Not necessarily in the hopes of changing their entire course of thought, but so that at least other people who read (again, many of whom I share the community with) don't latch onto the completely wrong information when forming their own opinions. In the case of my classmate, he shared a meme but added his own take that "All of the attackers in Paris were from Syria!" which of course is not at all true.
@Dakini Yes, we do talk about it at home. I'm thankful to have a small local sangha community with some parents who have kids about the same age. The kids are mostly really supportive of each other, it's just the random few causing trouble and the community pretends it's not happening. Small town politics and social stuff just gets really weird sometimes.
It's just so easy to get coiled up in an internet corner and wait for passing comments to strike at. I like a challenging discourse, lol. But when I do the things that make me feel grounded I have a much easier time letting stuff go and choosing wisely what and who to interact with and how to do so. Not every random post online needs a response by me, and I remember that much better when my yoga and meditation is in place before I turn on the computer.
On the plus side there was a 3 way conversation yesterday evening with a local guy who is a distant family member (my dad's cousin) who is extremely conservative and hard to talk with because he just does not listen. But at the end, he sent me a message saying he's glad there are people with good spirits and good hearts, it gives him hope for the world he thought he had lost. So just that small interaction with him changed my perspective of how he sees the world. He sees himself as a lost cause, but he recognizes it so there is hope for him yet
But it gave him a new way to see things, too. Which makes it all worth while.
I love this!
Way to go! There's hope for the world, yet! 