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Chris Crazy Question 4 The death problem.

EarthninjaEarthninja WandererWest Australia Veteran

Ok guys, here's one I like to ponder over. Really try and visualise this and imagine what it would be like. It may lead you into an insight about yourself

4 The doctor tells you that you have one day to live. You are completely terminally Ill with zero hope of survival.

There is no afterlife or rebirth. This is it, game over. End of you. Are you ok with this?
I don't mean happy, but at peace with dying. Today. If not, then what's stopping you being ok with final death?

Bunks

Comments

  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    No, I'm not ok for the following reasons:

    1. I'm not going to see my kids of this life grow up.
    2. They're not going to have a dad to support them and be there for them.
    EarthninjaNirvanaBuddhadragon
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran

    It does make me realise how much attachment to my family I have. My wife may meet another guy who is a better father to my kids than I will ever be! :)

  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    If all of humanity felt that this knowledge of death being the end of it totally, and believed that so strongly that they never questioned it, I think we would all be 'okay' with it because you can't quibble with it.

    But, humanity has seemingly always had this 'thing' about life going on - somehow. Many- if not most of humanity believes in a god of some sort - or the spirit - I think the question seems to be more about the permanent loss of our physical bodies and presence here on Earth and the old shrink question of 'How does that make you feel?'
    :glasses:

    Earthninja
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    "Today. If not, then what's stopping you being ok with final death?"

    Nothing :)

    Earthninjalobster
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran
    edited January 2016

    Chris's Crazy Scenario, #4:

    The doctor tells you that you have one day to live. You are completely terminally Ill with zero hope of survival.

    "There is no afterlife or rebirth. This is it, game over. End of you. Are you ok with this?"
    "I don't mean happy, but at peace with dying. Today. If not, then what's stopping you being ok with final death?"


    It's not the possibility of the nonexistence of anything [for me?] after "today" that would bother me —it's the abruptness of the annihilation.

    But this is not a realistic scenario, as no physician on his first consult will give you "one day to live." Therefore, to me it's more like a death sentence being imposed and you'll be out in front of the firing squad within the hour. Of course, this crosses any line of civility and becomes one of cruel and inhuman punishment. I do think that capital punishment should be outlawed due to the mental anguish it causes: One can only let go of life by degrees, as the body or mind sinks away naturally.

    Therefore, how would I deal with the above scenario on my own terms? First thing, I would instruct the doctor to leave the room immediately, with a firm and resolute "GET OUT!"

    But I know my thoughts would not be about Me; they would be about the people and projects I cared about. I know this from my early adolescence. I'd have these dreams about holding a ping-pong ball in my hand and realizing that it was really an atomic bomb I held in my hand, ready to explode in a few seconds. I'd wake up later feeling guilty for not having remembered God or Heaven or anything; all I was concerned with was my loved ones. It was then that I realized that I was basically an Atheist, no matter how much I kidded myself into believing that I believed in God.

    Ultimately, we are all agnostic, unknowing, and these stories about Heaven and such are just pious tales we tell each other to take the edge off things in troublous times.

    Earthninja
  • WalkerWalker Veteran Veteran

    For me personally, I'd be OK with it. I've had a good life. I gave up on the notion of an afterlife a long time ago. The hard part would be convincing my wife that I'd be OK with it. I don't think she'd believe me.

    EarthninjarohitBuddhadragon
  • NirvanaNirvana aka BUBBA   `     `   South Carolina, USA Veteran

    @Bunks said:
    No, I'm not ok for the following reasons:

    1. I'm not going to see my kids of this life grow up.
    2. They're not going to have a dad to support them and be there for them.

    Of course you're not going to be OK! The only thing that gives life real meaning is our relationships. Love is the only thing that makes life worthwhile and the hope (or scope) of continuing to kindle that love is what gives our existence meaning. Going on to Heaven or another life would be, in contrast, only an accomplishment. Going from point A to point B, though an accomplishment, is not something that can warm my heart.

    silverBunksEarthninja
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited January 2016

    @Earthninja said: If not, then what's stopping you being ok with final death?

    I won't have time to eat all the ice-cream the fairy brought...oh wait, she she also granted a wish that my mind will be transferred into a cyborg, so I will live on indefinitely as a nice Terminator helping old ladies to cross the street, "Hasta la vista, granny". Good bit of forward planning there if you don't mind me saying so.

  • @Earthninja said:
    Today. If not, then what's stopping you being ok with final death?

    When I was informed I had died, I immediately wrote my obituary web page ... which is slowly dying ... O.o
    https://web.archive.org/web/20061123134122/http://pages.britishlibrary.net/lobster/rip/

    Having to die again would come as no surprise ... :p

    yagrEarthninja
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Earthninja said:
    Ok guys, here's one I like to ponder over. Really try and visualise this and imagine what it would be like. It may lead you into an insight about yourself

    I do this every day. So.....?

    4 The doctor tells you that you have one day to live. You are completely terminally Ill with zero hope of survival.

    Ain't that the truth! He's quite right....! Or put it another way, one day, he will be. I just have no heads-up as to when that day will be.
    Come to think of it, I have an appointment for a general health check-up on the 2nd of February.... :open_mouth:

    There is no afterlife or rebirth. This is it, game over. End of you.

    Erm... Not sure we're on the same street with this one. I prefer (as this is supposedly a game of hypothesis) to consider that there will be an element of 'work-in-progress'....
    So? I've changed your conditions.
    So sue me.

    Are you ok with this?

    Yeah, I'm ok with this. What, like, I got a choice...?

    I don't mean happy, but at peace with dying. Today. If not, then what's stopping you being ok with final death?

    Yama an' me, we get along fine, thanks. We're buddies. We have tea together EV-RY day.....

    Earthninja
  • @federica said:

    Yama an' me, we get along fine, thanks. We're buddies. We have tea together EV-RY day.....

    LOL
    Iz plan

    Being fine with death makes the yummy yama biscuits of life quite delicious ...

    Earthninjarohit
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    They say the only sure things in life are Death and Taxes, but if Google, Starbucks and Amazon are anything to go by, even taxes are questionable....
    That leaves Death.
    Buddy, when ol' Yama comes a-tappin' you on the shoulder, you ain't GOT no choice but to go with him.
    Might as well shrug and bear it.

    yagrVastmindEarthninja
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran

    @lobster said: When I was informed I had died, I immediately wrote my obituary web page ... which is slowly dying ... O.o

    Good bit of forward planning there. Have you bought a funeral plan? I would like a viking burial, boat set alight by fire arrows, but there is probably a council bye-law against it. Pah, those bureaucrats!

    NamadaVastmindEarthninjarohit
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Oh thanks very much, Spiny. Now I've got the Kirk Douglas/Tony Curtis Viking theme going through my head.
    I could see what I can arrange about getting you hurled off The Giant's Causeway. That would be an equally dramatic way to go....

  • lobsterlobster Veteran
    edited January 2016

    @SpinyNorman said:
    Have you bought a funeral plan?

    What a fun thread. <3 I don't expect to turn into rainbows :no_mouth:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_body

    At the moment Lidl, Aldi or the £ shop don't offer plans, so maybe it is something to think about after the event ...
    At the moment my local council does not recycle all household waste, so getting into a plastic bag and sitting out with the rubbish is not an option. Much the same problem with Viking and sky burials. I would be worried about the arrows, I might be tempted to return fire, which would be disconcerting ...
    My local funeral director who spent a long time kindly recommending a way to arrange a masonic funeral for a dog (the dog was with me at the time) also provides cardboard coffins, which seems an excellent idea.

    Gosh so many choices. :dizzy: Funnily enough I was looking at green funerals only the other day
    http://www.goodfuneralguide.co.uk/find-a-funeral-director/what-is-a-green-funeral/

    Today is a good day to die
    Klingon - traditional

    Bunks
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    edited January 2016

    @lobster said: At the moment my local council does not recycle all household waste, so getting into a plastic bag and sitting out with the rubbish is not an option.

    You should be OK in a black wheelie bin, they send that stuff to landfill, so anything goes ( but ideally remove any plastic or metal from your body for recycling ). Alternatively I heard about a family firm called "Kray Brothers" in the East End of London, apparently they arrange free burials in concrete foundations.

    lobsterEarthninja
  • Do you like to go to bed every night, or do you stay up late, and dont want to sleep?

    We are dying everyday, so going to bed after a long day its maybe a small test for how it is to die?

    Often I think, ohh this day passed very fast...and feel like I didnt do enough, I should have done some more.

    BunksVastmindEarthninjarohit
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    Wow. Death is such an interesting topic. I'm tempted to start another thread about it. But...there's probably one or more of them around, although I don't know how recent they are. Hmm.

    Earthninjarohit
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    'Death' is not a problem...thinking about it 'is'... :wink:
    So my advice....

    silverWalkerEarthninjalobster
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    Love it - esp the lyrics 'the jokes on you.'

    It's been a long time since I could look on the bright side. :bawling:

    o:)

    ShoshinEarthninjalobsterrohit
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @silver said:
    Love it - esp the lyrics 'the jokes on you.'

    It's been a long time since I could look on the bright side. :bawling:

    o:)

    And may these bright side moments continue for you @silver <3

    silverDavidWalker
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    Love and curiosity mostly.

    If you asked me twenty years ago I would likely have said "Are you kidding? Let's get this over with already!" and now there's so much to experience still.

    By the end of the day I'd like to think I'll have accepted it even if I'm a bit anxious still.

    Just for fun though and even though it was somehow revealed that this is the final round, I'd aim.

    ShoshinEarthninja
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    aim?

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited January 2016

    Well, if I were terminally ill, I'd probably FEEL very ill, so the thought that there could be an end to my feeling lousy in the near future might be a comfort. But yes, I'd be at peace, knowing I've done my best to help people in this lifetime. Though there's always the potential to do more, but not if one is seriously ill. I still have some projects on my "to do" list, but whether or not I'll be able to pull them off remains to be seen. Humanity is in such straights, that there's always more work to be done. At some point, one has to let go of the doing-ness, and realize that one made the best use of one's time under whatever circumstances one has faced in life.

    EarthninjaNirvana
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran

    @genkaku said:
    Does anyone know anybody who died and then came back to complain about it?

    There was a teacher from the Shambala group who was (according to doctors) clinically dead for a period of time and he spoke about his 'unpleasant' experience in the hell realm...

    I can remember going to one of his talks when he was visiting NZ a few years ago, but for the life of me (pun intended) I can't remember his name ...It might have been someone "Katz" ... :)

    Earthninja
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Actually, with reference to the original question - you don't NEED a doctor to tell you that you have one day to live.
    If we all got up in the mornings with that thought in mind - we'd all be a lot more receptive to the idea.

    @dhammachick while you have been struggling with the concept of dying, for two years - look at how many people have died.
    Two most prominent ones in the past week - David Bowie and Alan Rickman, both with cancer. Bowie diagnosed just 18 months ago.

    So while you have been trying to make peace with the concept - others, also afflicted by medical conditions - have succumbed before you.

    Maybe you don't need to 'make peace' with it. Maybe you just need to give it the nod and accept it.
    Medical condition or not, some day, somehow, it will come for you too, just as it will for everyone else.

    The only difference between you and me (currently) is that you actually KNOW you have a potentially life-threatening condition.

    I don't. And AFAIK, I'm not on the cards for a predictable one, either.
    But I - like you - am dying.
    Right now.
    Every moment that goes past, takes me one step closer to my final one.

    There was a tragic story in the UK news a while ago, about a cyclist, murdered during a fit of road-rage, by a motorist.
    The irony is that the cyclist had successfully finished a course of chemo treatment for cancer, which had been successful, and the cancer was gone, or in remission (see comment under last photo)...

    See, it may not be what ails you, that brings about your end....

    Struggling against the concept of breathing your last, when ill, is about as futile as struggling against the concept of breathing your last, when well.

    EarthninjaKundo
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @federica dharmachick is in constant pain which makes things much much worse but you are right with that comment.
    Any one if us could be game over in a heartbeat.
    I'm going to enjoy the sunset and my dinner tonight!
    <3

    Shoshin
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I know she is in constant pain. I really do understand that. I adore @dhammachick. I've known her a while. Her kindness and generosity is boundless, her heart and loving Kindness are immense....
    She often hides it all behind a mask of no-nonsense abbrasiveness, but I know how she rolls....

    The saying 'Pain is inevitable but Suffering is optional' is trite and fatuous, and could be seen as making light of her situation.
    Please know, nothing could be further from the truth.

    EarthninjalobsterStraight_ManKundo
  • MetaphasicMetaphasic NC, USA Explorer

    I would not be ok with death, as proposed by the thread starter.

    The main reason is that I believe life has a purpose. If we are not expected to carry on, or persist our experiences and what we've learned, then there is no point. Life would just be one long bio-chemical reaction with no real reason to harbor consciousness.

    Assuming that persistence is possible, then I'd be ok with it.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited January 2016

    @Metaphasic said:
    I would not be ok with death, as proposed by the thread starter.

    Let me just clarify something for you:
    Do not assume it is proposed by the thread-starter.
    Try to consider that the proposal is absolutely on-point and accurate.
    Tomorrow, you will die..

    Well. Ok. Maybe not exactly, specifically, really 'tomorrow'.... But, let me be blunt - one of your 'tomorrows' will be your last. Can you guarantee, which 'tomorrow' it will be, for sure?

    The main reason is that I believe life has a purpose. If we are not expected to carry on, or persist our experiences and what we've learned, then there is no point. Life would just be one long bio-chemical reaction with no real reason to harbor consciousness.

    Have you worked out precisely what the purpose of your life is?
    And would you be able to accomlish that purpose, by tomorrow?

    Ok, well if not, how long do you need?

    Assuming that persistence is possible, then I'd be ok with it.

    We assume a great deal, all of us, don't we?
    We take for granted that we have this supreme choice of being able to delay death; to put it at the back of our minds, because the further back it goes, the less we have to think about it. Ergo, the longer we'll live.

    Look, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, here, be a party-pooper, or be depressing.

    But LIVING the Buddhist Path means completely acknowledging and realising that Life IS 'suffering' - and Life, includes dying.
    And we have to face that 'suffering' and realise, admit to ourselves, and live with the reality of the extreme brevity and often-inconsequential effect of being alive....
    The majority of us do not make a massive, seismic difference to the existence of others.
    Most of us are ordinary Joes (and Jills) whose influence extends to family, friends and loved ones.

    I'm being totally realistic, here.
    I've had good friends and relatives die on me.
    I don't think of all of them every day, because so far, only one of them has made a huge impact on my life; and that was my father.
    Out of about 15 people I know personally, who have died, that's a relatively normal attitude...

    In 20 years' time, I doubt very much I will be on this forum as Moderator, or that everyone here with me today, will be here either.
    (That said, I've been here 11 years, so, who knows...?)

    That's my point.
    Who knows?
    I sure as hell don't, and am making NO assumptions.
    One way or the other....

    Walkerlobster
  • ShoshinShoshin No one in particular Nowhere Special Veteran
    edited January 2016

    4 The doctor tells you that you have one day to live. You are completely terminally Ill with zero hope of survival.

    If the clinging and grasping mind is dominant on that day, then one is bound to suffer...

    For me the whole idea of practice is "prevention is better than cure" "be prepared"..... Each and every day tie up the loose ends, learn to live with no regrets, having compassion and forgiveness is the key, forgive those around you and forgive yourself "Each and every day"...

    Far too often people carry around the imaginary crap of others, they accumulate other people imaginary crap, the clinging and grasping mind feeds on it...If ones mind is still full of other people's crap, suffering at the time of ones death will be near on inevitable...It can be liken to going to bed and trying to sleep after having an argument with somebody...the argument can continues in ones head long after the event, disturbing ones sleep pattern no end...

    I guess from a Buddhist perspective if one can keep in mind the nature of suffering and know/understand that "Hurt people hurt people" (thank you forum member for this most useful quote :) ) it's possible ones compassion will grow, enabling one to see things differently, releasing the grip/grasping/clinging, so to speak...
    "Practice makes perfect and perfect practice makes perfect practice!"

    Oopss I've started to ramble on a bit... (Thanks a bloody lot @Earthninja :lol: )

    EarthninjasilverlobsterBuddhadragon
  • EarthninjaEarthninja Wanderer West Australia Veteran

    @robot congratulations !!!! Twins!!

    Shoshin
  • @Earthninja said:
    @robot congratulations !!!! Twins!!

    Thanks. I'm stoked!

    silver
  • MetaphasicMetaphasic NC, USA Explorer

    @federica said:

    @Metaphasic said:
    I would not be ok with death, as proposed by the thread starter.

    Let me just clarify something for you:
    Do not assume it is proposed by the thread-starter.
    Try to consider that the proposal is absolutely on-point and accurate.
    Tomorrow, you will die..

    Well. Ok. Maybe not exactly, specifically, really 'tomorrow'.... But, let me be blunt - one of your 'tomorrows' will be your last. Can you guarantee, which 'tomorrow' it will be, for sure?

    The main reason is that I believe life has a purpose. If we are not expected to carry on, or persist our experiences and what we've learned, then there is no point. Life would just be one long bio-chemical reaction with no real reason to harbor consciousness.

    Have you worked out precisely what the purpose of your life is?
    And would you be able to accomlish that purpose, by tomorrow?

    Ok, well if not, how long do you need?

    Assuming that persistence is possible, then I'd be ok with it.

    We assume a great deal, all of us, don't we?
    We take for granted that we have this supreme choice of being able to delay death; to put it at the back of our minds, because the further back it goes, the less we have to think about it. Ergo, the longer we'll live.

    Look, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, here, be a party-pooper, or be depressing.

    But LIVING the Buddhist Path means completely acknowledging and realising that Life IS 'suffering' - and Life, includes dying.
    And we have to face that 'suffering' and realise, admit to ourselves, and live with the reality of the extreme brevity and often-inconsequential effect of being alive....
    The majority of us do not make a massive, seismic difference to the existence of others.
    Most of us are ordinary Joes (and Jills) whose influence extends to family, friends and loved ones.

    I'm being totally realistic, here.
    I've had good friends and relatives die on me.
    I don't think of all of them every day, because so far, only one of them has made a huge impact on my life; and that was my father.
    Out of about 15 people I know personally, who have died, that's a relatively normal attitude...

    In 20 years' time, I doubt very much I will be on this forum as Moderator, or that everyone here with me today, will be here either.
    (That said, I've been here 11 years, so, who knows...?)

    That's my point.
    Who knows?
    I sure as hell don't, and am making NO assumptions.
    One way or the other....

    What a long reply to such a simple statement. Let me make it simpler.

    If we are nothing more than an affect of biology, then life is pointless.
    In which case, I would probably just end it early.

    rohit
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @federica said:

    The saying 'Pain is inevitable but Suffering is optional' is trite and fatuous, and could be seen as making light of her situation.
    Please know, nothing could be further from the truth.

    I totally understand where @federica is coming from and take no offence or (hopefully) misunderstanding. She raises some good points I hadn't thought of. Which also supports my own idea that at times I am simply too self absorbed <3

    _ /\ _

    federicaEarthninja
  • KundoKundo Sydney, Australia Veteran

    @Metaphasic said:

    If we are nothing more than an affect of biology, then life is pointless.
    In which case, I would probably just end it early.

    That's not Buddhism, that's nihilism

    lobsterfederica
  • LionduckLionduck Veteran
    edited January 2016

    We are born, we mature, we age, we die.

    @Earthninja said:
    Ok guys, here's one I like to ponder over. Really try and visualise this and imagine what it would be like. It may lead you into an insight about yourself

    4 The doctor tells you that you have one day to live. You are completely terminally Ill with zero hope of survival.

    There is no afterlife or rebirth. This is it, game over. End of you. Are you ok with this?
    I don't mean happy, but at peace with dying. Today. If not, then what's stopping you being ok with final death?

    24 hours to live, no after life or rebirth. Just that someone is going to reach back and flip the switch..CLICK! Game over..I ROBOT is no more.

    This question and this thread remind me of a scene from 'Forest Gump". He has just rescues his friend, Bubba;

    "What happened, Forest?"
    "You got shot."
    

    No spoiler here, Bubba dies.

    Another scene, closer to point went something like this: (Not exact, but close)
    Forest's mother is dying and he just entered the room:

    "What's wrong...mamma?"
    "I'm dying, Forrest."
    "Oh, mama!"
    "It's OK, Forrest, that's part of life."

    Of course there is a recent movie, I forget the title, where a lawyer is defending a spy.
    The spy could face death and he knows it. (Yes Tom Hanks is the Lawyer)
    The lawyer asks the spy, "Are you worried?"
    The spy answers, "Would it help?"

    Real life: We don't know what the next moment will bring. Each moment is a gift and each day stands alone. Death is a part of life. If you live in fear of death, you are not living.

    Getting fuddle brained here...fernwkfnsczwqizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  • 'Bridge of Spies' is the movie @Lionduck

    If we are nothing more than an affect of biology, then life is pointless.
    In which case, I would probably just end it early.

    I find that statement wasteful, cruel and ... the world is not all about us IMO
    'Would it help?'
    Now we find the value of developing compassion for others ...
    Nothing more? Miracle of nature. Potential. We might even become enlightened just at the point of wasting our existence.

    That would be ironic o:)

    federica
  • @lobster said:
    'Bridge of Spies' is the movie @Lionduck

    Now we find the value of developing compassion for others ...

    Thanks.

    As we develop compassion for others, we develop compassion for ourselves as well. As we develop love for ourselves, we develop love for others.
    As we develop compassion and love, purpose in life becomes clear, our path opens and our capacity for compassion, love and life continues to expand.
    It is always a two way street, path, avenue.
    Light the lamp for others and your way is illuminated as well.

    Peace to all

    lobsterrobotShoshin
  • MetaphasicMetaphasic NC, USA Explorer

    @dhammachick said:

    @Metaphasic said:

    If we are nothing more than an affect of biology, then life is pointless.
    In which case, I would probably just end it early.

    That's not Buddhism, that's nihilism

    Yup. Fortunately, I do believe in spiritual persistence. I was just answering the question.

    Shoshinlobster
  • UpaliUpali Rochester New

    There is no afterlife or rebirth.

    if there is only one birth then suffering will end in death
    so the cessation of suffering is death

    No need to learn the 4 noble truths then since problem of suffering is solved in death.

    Why do you think that Gottema is suffering living in luxurious life with his dad making sure he does not suffer in any ways?

    Who would have leave such a life just to find out all suffering ends in death?

    It would be better for Gottema to become a wheel turning monarch if the cessation of suffering is death.

    what is there to worry about for all must end in death and no more birth no more suffering

    Jeffreyrohit
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran

    @Earthninja said:
    Are you ok with this?

    I don't know, it hasn't happened yet! :)

    lobster
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