Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
^^^ I totally agree that the word Hinayana is too valuable to discard. The swastika is used in Jainism in particular and very often in Buddhism. It is nazism that needs discarding not valued symbols. With the swastika it may take a while for some of us ...
Long live the elders (Theravadins) and Mahayana upstarts!
and now a message from future Buddhas ... if they ever get out of the hell realms ...
@federica said:
I understand the term to be considered extremely derogatory.
I'd be reassured, @caz, that you in no way meant it to be....
Not at all, as a term of reference in regards to the 3 vehicles, Theravada isn't a vehicle but a school, perhaps a more appropriate turn of phrase would be Buddha's first turning teachings.
The Buddhist** path** towards sufferings cessation has many trail access points represented by its different schools and traditions.
Judging one trail to be superior or inferior to another, only announces that one is still trail bound, just as ones transcendence of such judgements suggests some experience upon the path beyond those trail accesses.
^^^ Exactly so.
It is the superior practitioner that empowers their and others liberation.
I like the idea, 'trail entry points'.
Get on the path. Stay on the path. Become the path. Kick the superiorist sect followers up the ass on your way past [in an encouraging, ahimsa, helpful manner of course]
I find myself attracted Theravada, even though the only local sanghas are Vajrayana. I appreciate the straightforward, down to earth approach that Theravada takes. I also have trouble seeing my little ol' self saving all sentient beings. And if there is a fast track to enlightenment, why did the Buddha waste everyone's time with a slow path?
But what it really comes down to is what practice is superior for you. If visualizing yourself as a deity and taking Boddhisattva vows moves your practice forward, go for it. If you haven't investigated other paths, and claim that your path is superior, then you're just speaking from ignorance.
I found myself attracted to Theravada for many of the same reasons @nakazcid lists. I've learned quite a bit studying the Pali canon and at my local Theravada temple where we have a weekly group discussion on a Sutta selected by one of the Bhantes.
This is the tradition that most appeals to me, but I could certainly see how a Tibetan or Zen tradition would be seem perfectly valid to someone else. And as a lay person, I'm not terribly interested in sectarian squabbling. Let those with venerable titles worry about what path is "correct," I'm just trying to get through this particular life in the best way I can.
All this discussion though reminds me of last week when our Sri Lankan, Theravadan monks hosted a small group of Tibetan monks at the temple. They held a Tibetan meditation retreat and performed a few traditional dances. The Sri Lankan abbot joked that he would happily dance too, but only if we all closed our eyes.
I also have trouble seeing my little ol' self saving all sentient beings.
Yes, I always found that idea overwhelming. Not even sure I can "save" myself.
Saving our little ol' self would be like trying to save our own ignorance.
That "little ol' self" is only the dream that the Buddha exhorted us to awaken from.
Tsk, tsk I think @how and @SpinyNorman might be crypto-Hinayanists ... without labels
We are all best to be Hinayanists until we have the means to help others? Only then, we can join the authentic Mahayanic will to be of service? Up till then we might as well study magical dharma? What is a gal to do?
@karasti said:I realize that back in the day there were (and perhaps still are) people who did use hinayana and/or "lesser vehicle" to put others down.
It's not always clear why people use certain words, but there are certainly people around who regard Theravada as a selfish and inferior vehicle. There's a long thread on Dharma Wheel about it strangely enough.
0
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited January 2016
Which vehicle teaches that there is no possible way to do one completely without having started the other?
A lesser vehicle would claim that one can only be saved without helping to save others or that others can only be saved by one that is not helping to save themself.
A wise practitioner of either wouldn't put the other down and would know we cannot do one without doing a bit of the other.
A matter of focus doesn't always imply a narrow intent.
Are we all in this thing together or not?
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I love Trungpa's stuff on the subject. He goes into extensive detail about how they build and yet work off of each other. And he never puts any of them down as unimportant or inferior. Vajrayana, for example (which is what my teacher is) is not just itself. It includes all of mahayana and hinayana. So how could it or mahayana put down hinayana when they rely on hinayana for their basis?
Ya. It does tell everything to label others hin yana. One western monk diaciple in thialand who banned here was telling that mahayana is not pure Buddhism because it is bramhinical.
But i do think the gelapus sect of Tibet helped to remain in news worldwide due to Dalai lama. And Westerner people atleast realised that there is a religion named as Buddhism.
With all things...it's the company you keep. AFA the OP.....why continue to hang out/around people who are spreading such negative mindsets...as in one person is better than another? Neither my RL sangha or NB has this feeling or undertone, and I wouldn't be a part of it if it was.
'Is there any valid basis for these claims of superiority, or is it really just a load of tiresome sectarian rhetoric?'
That's for you to decide. But I'm betting that the whole superiority concept goes against basic Buddhist teaching.
And if it is tiresome sectarian rhetoric....well...you brought it here....so...what does that mean?
A helluvalot of gastronomical stuff in this thread. Been on retreat and away from my computer for a spell, so I come in late.
Just want to state unequivocally that there's no room in the spiritual quest for superiority. Superiority can only breed brutality, inability to observe important things, and dishonesty. I take great exception to the following:
@hermitwin said:
It is not politically correct to say that I think my schooll of Buddhism is superior to others. But if we are honest to ourselves, of course we feel our chosen school is superior. Why else would you choose to follow that particular school?
Such thinking, I think, eludes nearly everyone here.
2
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I agree, and said as much.... frankly, it borders on the outrageous....
@karasti said: Vajrayana, for example (which is what my teacher is) is not just itself. It includes all of mahayana and hinayana. So how could it or mahayana put down hinayana when they rely on hinayana for their basis?
It gives the impression that "hinayana" is basic beginners stuff, then you move onto the proper advanced stuff. I've certainly heard Vajrayana types talk like this, for example Dzogchen people.
@Spiny that doesn't jibe with what Lama Shenpen teaches. She teaches that the eight fold path is quite an advanced teaching. And that 8FP is categorized in the 1st yana.
One thing to consider is that time to study is not infinite. You can't study every teaching so you're bound to know one thing more than another.
@SpinyNorman I think those who give that impression are doing so from their own insecurities and misunderstandings, as usual. That doesn't mean that is what those teachings really are. It just means people, as always, put their own skewed perceptions on things. It is a lack of understanding and ego.
I think Hinayana is just...simple. And there is a lot of profound wisdom in simplicity. I don't think it's a jumping off point you grow out of or move on from. You never leave it behind. One retreat I was on, the teacher said (and he used a word I cannot recall) that basically people who live simply, chop wood, carry water so to speak, are often the most advanced of practitioners. More so than scholars who are always wrapped up in their ideas of everything but sure of nothing.
@hermitwin I didn't choose my school. I had no choice. It presented itself to me and it worked, so I went with it. But I didn't choose it and I certainly don't think it superior to anyone else's path. Why do people always assume that? Why is it so hard to believe that people can and do understand that one path isn't better. It's just another path and different paths suit different people? I will never understand that. Same with diet, and parenting and all life choices. What works for me cannot be expected to work for others, and just because it works for me doesn't make it "the best."
When some priest comes up with that, "I've (or we've) got a secret only those with shaved heads and robes are privy to. Therefor, only I (we) can grant you permission or enable you to obtain the priceless Jewel and you must follow me (us) or you ain't gonna' get there." Or some such gibberish, back away slowly and as soon as you reach the exit, run. Such charlatans will suck your spirit (and you pocketbook) dry. And if you actually go to them for spiritual guidance/direction, they prove more hollow than the bells they ring.
Oh, we could get into that 'lesser boat' 'greater boat' 'Who needs a boat' thing or 'what teaching is most appropriate for this age', etc.
As @karasti says, some people just don't have much of a choice.
Yes, I thought of pulling out my "big Guns" on this one. But decided it would be a terrible wast of ammo.
If nothing else, I follow one rule on this site:** Respect choices others have made and respect your own choices.
**
The question posed in this thread could easily lead to warfare among the thoughtless.
Now where is that cocoa?
Peace to all
0
CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
@SpinyNorman said:
I hear Mahayana types going on about how their vehicle is bigger and better than Theravada. I hear Vajrayana types going on about how their vehicle is superior to both, the fast track. I hear Theravadans going on about how the suttas are the only reliable guide to the Buddha's teaching, and the rest is just unnecessary re-inventing of the Wheel. And so it goes on.
Is there any valid basis for these claims of superiority, or is it really just a load of tiresome sectarian rhetoric?
The only basis I see is if one is basing the "right" teaching on origin and authenticity. A lot of the Mahayana teachings are second hand just by comparison in reading. Or how some say watered down. I dont see that as bad. I dont know if this teaching is in other sutras, but the one I practice from says that the Buddha uses different methods for different group of people.
So, I dont believe one is superior to another but based on who the Buddha talked with and time period. Origin helps with authenticity. Authenticity helps decipher what are Not The Buddha's teachings.
If they are not his teachings, do we throw them aside?
there are different ways to understand the same "authentic" Buddha's teachings. To me, that is all other texts and teachings are-different ways to understand the same information. We also don't know that what was written does is truly authentic either, as it wasn't written until long after Buddha's death.
Also, don't forget that sutras were never written in English. How do any of us know how accurately they were translated?
0
CarlitaBastian please! Save us!United StatesVeteran
@karasti said:
there are different ways to understand the same "authentic" Buddha's teachings. To me, that is all other texts and teachings are-different ways to understand the same information. We also don't know that what was written does is truly authentic either, as it wasn't written until long after Buddha's death.
Also, don't forget that sutras were never written in English. How do any of us know how accurately they were translated?
True. That would mean either side really have no superiority. It sounds like ego kicking in.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
HHDL likes to compare different religions, and I'd assume different sects in Buddhism as like medicine. You can't really say one medicine is better than another, what determines which medicine is "best" depends on what ails the patient and what will make them better.
When I hear sectarian people arguing about why their belief is superior or why another's is inferior their own is argued with a favorable interpretation and others are interpreted unfairly, IOW there isn't an honest assessment of differing paths.
Exactly so @person
One of my local Theravadin temples offers beginner classes to all comers. This includes free walking meditation tuition, talks in english etc. I still go about once every couple of months to walk around the extensive and peaceful grounds.
Comments
^^^ I totally agree that the word Hinayana is too valuable to discard. The swastika is used in Jainism in particular and very often in Buddhism. It is nazism that needs discarding not valued symbols. With the swastika it may take a while for some of us ...
Long live the elders (Theravadins) and Mahayana upstarts!
and now a message from future Buddhas ... if they ever get out of the hell realms ...
Sorry guys
Not at all, as a term of reference in regards to the 3 vehicles, Theravada isn't a vehicle but a school, perhaps a more appropriate turn of phrase would be Buddha's first turning teachings.
The Buddhist** path** towards sufferings cessation has many trail access points represented by its different schools and traditions.
Judging one trail to be superior or inferior to another, only announces that one is still trail bound, just as ones transcendence of such judgements suggests some experience upon the path beyond those trail accesses.
^^^ Exactly so.
It is the superior practitioner that empowers their and others liberation.
I like the idea, 'trail entry points'.
Get on the path. Stay on the path. Become the path. Kick the superiorist sect followers up the ass on your way past [in an encouraging, ahimsa, helpful manner of course]
Don't stop till Nirvana.
Iz superior plan ...
I find myself attracted Theravada, even though the only local sanghas are Vajrayana. I appreciate the straightforward, down to earth approach that Theravada takes. I also have trouble seeing my little ol' self saving all sentient beings. And if there is a fast track to enlightenment, why did the Buddha waste everyone's time with a slow path?
But what it really comes down to is what practice is superior for you. If visualizing yourself as a deity and taking Boddhisattva vows moves your practice forward, go for it. If you haven't investigated other paths, and claim that your path is superior, then you're just speaking from ignorance.
No they're just tiresome sectarian rhetoric...coming from discontented minds....
I found myself attracted to Theravada for many of the same reasons @nakazcid lists. I've learned quite a bit studying the Pali canon and at my local Theravada temple where we have a weekly group discussion on a Sutta selected by one of the Bhantes.
This is the tradition that most appeals to me, but I could certainly see how a Tibetan or Zen tradition would be seem perfectly valid to someone else. And as a lay person, I'm not terribly interested in sectarian squabbling. Let those with venerable titles worry about what path is "correct," I'm just trying to get through this particular life in the best way I can.
All this discussion though reminds me of last week when our Sri Lankan, Theravadan monks hosted a small group of Tibetan monks at the temple. They held a Tibetan meditation retreat and performed a few traditional dances. The Sri Lankan abbot joked that he would happily dance too, but only if we all closed our eyes.
Yes, I always found that idea overwhelming. Not even sure I can "save" myself.
I also have trouble seeing my little ol' self saving all sentient beings.
Yes, I always found that idea overwhelming. Not even sure I can "save" myself.
Saving our little ol' self would be like trying to save our own ignorance.
That "little ol' self" is only the dream that the Buddha exhorted us to awaken from.
... we poor 'dream dharma' followers ...
https://www.wolfson.ox.ac.uk/~ben/writings/TheClothsofHeaven.html
Tsk, tsk I think @how and @SpinyNorman might be crypto-Hinayanists ... without labels
We are all best to be Hinayanists until we have the means to help others? Only then, we can join the authentic Mahayanic will to be of service? Up till then we might as well study magical dharma? What is a gal to do?
Long live the Enlightened! Death to Ignorance!
Iz Buddha's plan.
It's not always clear why people use certain words, but there are certainly people around who regard Theravada as a selfish and inferior vehicle. There's a long thread on Dharma Wheel about it strangely enough.
Which vehicle teaches that there is no possible way to do one completely without having started the other?
A lesser vehicle would claim that one can only be saved without helping to save others or that others can only be saved by one that is not helping to save themself.
A wise practitioner of either wouldn't put the other down and would know we cannot do one without doing a bit of the other.
A matter of focus doesn't always imply a narrow intent.
Are we all in this thing together or not?
Booh-yah!
I love Trungpa's stuff on the subject. He goes into extensive detail about how they build and yet work off of each other. And he never puts any of them down as unimportant or inferior. Vajrayana, for example (which is what my teacher is) is not just itself. It includes all of mahayana and hinayana. So how could it or mahayana put down hinayana when they rely on hinayana for their basis?
Ya. It does tell everything to label others hin yana. One western monk diaciple in thialand who banned here was telling that mahayana is not pure Buddhism because it is bramhinical.
But i do think the gelapus sect of Tibet helped to remain in news worldwide due to Dalai lama. And Westerner people atleast realised that there is a religion named as Buddhism.
With all things...it's the company you keep. AFA the OP.....why continue to hang out/around people who are spreading such negative mindsets...as in one person is better than another? Neither my RL sangha or NB has this feeling or undertone, and I wouldn't be a part of it if it was.
'Is there any valid basis for these claims of superiority, or is it really just a load of tiresome sectarian rhetoric?'
That's for you to decide. But I'm betting that the whole superiority concept goes against basic Buddhist teaching.
And if it is tiresome sectarian rhetoric....well...you brought it here....so...what does that mean?
A helluvalot of gastronomical stuff in this thread. Been on retreat and away from my computer for a spell, so I come in late.
Just want to state unequivocally that there's no room in the spiritual quest for superiority. Superiority can only breed brutality, inability to observe important things, and dishonesty. I take great exception to the following:
Such thinking, I think, eludes nearly everyone here.
I agree, and said as much.... frankly, it borders on the outrageous....
It gives the impression that "hinayana" is basic beginners stuff, then you move onto the proper advanced stuff. I've certainly heard Vajrayana types talk like this, for example Dzogchen people.
@Spiny that doesn't jibe with what Lama Shenpen teaches. She teaches that the eight fold path is quite an advanced teaching. And that 8FP is categorized in the 1st yana.
One thing to consider is that time to study is not infinite. You can't study every teaching so you're bound to know one thing more than another.
@SpinyNorman I think those who give that impression are doing so from their own insecurities and misunderstandings, as usual. That doesn't mean that is what those teachings really are. It just means people, as always, put their own skewed perceptions on things. It is a lack of understanding and ego.
I think Hinayana is just...simple. And there is a lot of profound wisdom in simplicity. I don't think it's a jumping off point you grow out of or move on from. You never leave it behind. One retreat I was on, the teacher said (and he used a word I cannot recall) that basically people who live simply, chop wood, carry water so to speak, are often the most advanced of practitioners. More so than scholars who are always wrapped up in their ideas of everything but sure of nothing.
@hermitwin I didn't choose my school. I had no choice. It presented itself to me and it worked, so I went with it. But I didn't choose it and I certainly don't think it superior to anyone else's path. Why do people always assume that? Why is it so hard to believe that people can and do understand that one path isn't better. It's just another path and different paths suit different people? I will never understand that. Same with diet, and parenting and all life choices. What works for me cannot be expected to work for others, and just because it works for me doesn't make it "the best."
When some priest comes up with that, "I've (or we've) got a secret only those with shaved heads and robes are privy to. Therefor, only I (we) can grant you permission or enable you to obtain the priceless Jewel and you must follow me (us) or you ain't gonna' get there." Or some such gibberish, back away slowly and as soon as you reach the exit, run. Such charlatans will suck your spirit (and you pocketbook) dry. And if you actually go to them for spiritual guidance/direction, they prove more hollow than the bells they ring.
Oh, we could get into that 'lesser boat' 'greater boat' 'Who needs a boat' thing or 'what teaching is most appropriate for this age', etc.
As @karasti says, some people just don't have much of a choice.
Yes, I thought of pulling out my "big Guns" on this one. But decided it would be a terrible wast of ammo.
If nothing else, I follow one rule on this site:** Respect choices others have made and respect your own choices.
**
The question posed in this thread could easily lead to warfare among the thoughtless.
Now where is that cocoa?
Peace to all
The only basis I see is if one is basing the "right" teaching on origin and authenticity. A lot of the Mahayana teachings are second hand just by comparison in reading. Or how some say watered down. I dont see that as bad. I dont know if this teaching is in other sutras, but the one I practice from says that the Buddha uses different methods for different group of people.
So, I dont believe one is superior to another but based on who the Buddha talked with and time period. Origin helps with authenticity. Authenticity helps decipher what are Not The Buddha's teachings.
If they are not his teachings, do we throw them aside?
there are different ways to understand the same "authentic" Buddha's teachings. To me, that is all other texts and teachings are-different ways to understand the same information. We also don't know that what was written does is truly authentic either, as it wasn't written until long after Buddha's death.
Also, don't forget that sutras were never written in English. How do any of us know how accurately they were translated?
True. That would mean either side really have no superiority. It sounds like ego kicking in.
HHDL likes to compare different religions, and I'd assume different sects in Buddhism as like medicine. You can't really say one medicine is better than another, what determines which medicine is "best" depends on what ails the patient and what will make them better.
When I hear sectarian people arguing about why their belief is superior or why another's is inferior their own is argued with a favorable interpretation and others are interpreted unfairly, IOW there isn't an honest assessment of differing paths.
Exactly so @person
One of my local Theravadin temples offers beginner classes to all comers. This includes free walking meditation tuition, talks in english etc. I still go about once every couple of months to walk around the extensive and peaceful grounds.
As medicinal as any haven ...