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Illusion of control
Mingle
Veteran
in Philosophy
I've heard people say and I've read that apparently us thinking we have control of our lives is just an illusion. I'm having a hard time understanding it though. I can understand that we cannot control our thoughts or state of mind infact that helps me to be more mindful knowing I dont have the responsibility of making my mind feel different.
In a more litteral sense I don't understand. Surely control comes from choice and choice is something we definitely have. I can choose to stay in bed all day or I can choose to do something. If someone who was poor has now made themselves rich surely that didn't happen without exuding his own force on the world.
Can anyone explain?
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Can anyone move this to a more appropriate category also, didn't mean to post in this one?
Well, as I understand it you only have the choices available that you can see in front of you. And that is limited by your personal inclinations and past history. So you have choice, but it is within a limited range. So you feel as if you have "control" within the vast range of possibilities of everything that you could conceivably do, but in fact the range of choice you have is much more limited.
For example, it's 20.07 on a Tuesday, I could go out to a rave in Amsterdam tonight. It's a small trek for me, but it's physically possible. Similarly I could go buy last-minute theatre tickets in The Hague and make it there just in time for the opening. However, if you look at my past history, you will see my thinking is basically constrained between "go for an evening walk along the beach" and "watch a movie". So my actual, realistic choices are much more limited than the extent of what is physically possible.
Similarly the person who was poor who made themselves rich was shaped to be that way by the people and things she or he encountered in life, which steered their range of choices to include a path which led to riches. So yes, she or he was an author of their own wealth, but in reality their path would not have been open to just anyone.
Check out the Free will.and the frustrator post someone put up a couple of days ago.
It's probably what confused him.
(I always have difficulties understanding the volition/no volition/free will or not issues myself.)
Ah, did not see that one
In theory there might be no control according to some schools. This theory does not help much in my everyday life though. It does not motivate me towards the betterment of my actions.
I think Christopher Hitchens got it right when he said we have no choice but to have free will.
There's always options open to us, but some are so far-fetched that they really aren't viable. So, we have choices to make, most choices are quite menial, but some do have far-reaching effects on ourselves, and others. For example, if you choose to get drunk, and drive home, instead of taking a cab, you can do a lot of harm, and radically change the future for yourself and others. If you choose to have soup instead of salad for dinner, I suppose you might get sick or something, but usually a choice like that is not going to have a huge impact later.
I think choices can be important, but also it's important how we react to the stuff that's out of our control.
We can refine our mind and thinking pattern which would turn in possibly in good fortune.
As a fan of Indian astrology I heard from some pundits that just hard work can not give you results , it also requires luck. First time I hated that words but later I came to conclusion that it's combination our karma in this life plus resistance of past karma which will lead us further in good or bad situation.
It's like sailer traveling in sea of hurricane.
What is going to come next easy or tough phase in intervals of life is decided may be based on past life karma but we can make it easier with proper right efforts.
You are free to choose but can never be free from the consequences of your choice. That's what kamma is about. But there's also kamma that leads to the ending of kamma. That's the promised true freedom.
The idea of the frustrator is that if you have awareness of the future you can then act in a different way. So in a practical sense the more self aware you are about your mental arisings and their inevitable outcomes the more able you are to cut off automatic, habitual reacting and act in a way that is more beneficial.
Its still deterministic, but since awareness is a cause in the present it frees us from the past and a set, fatalistic future.
That's my take anyway.
isn't it a result?
if so doesn't that knowledge feed back to future awareness?
if there is a feed back can it still be deterministic?
As a lobster it is my free will to eat fish (dead fish incidentally).
Yes I have freewill to eat only seaweed ... and die. Only the legendary vegan lobster who turned into a rainbow dolphin trancended the crustacean karma.
So as others have rightly said, free will is within the limitations of our capacity to move around within. Some have very non-free potential. Others have more choices. Humans for example. They can wake up.
That's a fair question, but is it a result or is it something always present? I guess my view is that awareness can be developed, so the amount of awareness in an individual is a result, but the essential quality of awareness is already existent. I think that is a fundamental spiritual question which is open to debate.
From my understanding feedback doesn't exclude determinism.
In the suttas it's not about free-will as such, but the fact that we do not have control over the aggregates.
"Feeling, O monks, is not-self; if feeling were self, then feeling would not lead to affliction and it should obtain regarding feeling: 'May my feeling be thus, may my feeling not be thus'; and indeed, O monks, since feeling is not-self, therefore feeling leads to affliction and it does not obtain regarding feeling: 'May my feeling be thus, may my feeling not be thus."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.mend.html
In western culture, there seems to be a mythology of "free will" and individualism that distorts how we perceive reality. The reality is that there are far, far more variables at work that shape our lives (and perceptions) that are completely out of our control than in our control.
Sure, we have choices, but did we choose what choices we have in the first place? That's not free will. For us to just sit here and converse, a seemingly endless series of events had to happen to make that possible. Other people had to invent the technology to do so, and even that had to be done over multiple generations of people.
Those people also had to have the conditions to do so; conditions largely out of their control. Prior knowledge had to exist to build on.
The mere fact we are even here, now, is because of a series of events before we were even born. Our life expectancy is vastly improved because events before we were born had to happen to make that possible.
Even the things that formed our consciousness were out of our control. We don't choose where we are born, and what family (or not) we are born into. Those variables shape our lives a great deal.
There simply isn't even enough time to go through all the conditions outside of our personal choices that had to happen to make those choices possible in the first place.
@Walker said, "I think Christopher Hitchens got it right when he said we have no choice but to have free will."
Agreed. I think most feel that if they didn't have choices they'd be too demoralized and feel like they're in a prison. And all the folks and eons that came before, can be viewed as if we're all just particles and parts of the waves of some gigantic universal ocean, BUT each particle and part CHOSE to be interested in creating the different forms of communications, transportation, etc. I don't think much of anybody stops and thinks about how futile it is to have the audacity to think they have free will and can choose what they do in their lives. Well...maybe it is, but what a set-up that is/would be.
At worst I think it can be said that the way conditions and our brains makes decisions isn't the way we perceive them to happen in our mind. If our brains are akin to the hardware of a computer and our conscious mind like the computer screen (this model might not be correct), just because the processing happens in the computer before it appears on the screen and not on the screen itself doesn't mean decisions aren't happening.
When I was 23, I had my life under control. I had it figured out. I was happily married and knew my marriage would last because I'd watched the crappy way men treated their wives and knew the secret to a happy marriage was to keep your wife happy. I was in the military and going to college at night and my career was going fine. After all, there were no wars going on and the one thing you have in the military if you behave is job security. You retire after 20 years and have all that extra income. I had my life under control. It was a happy life.
A year later, I was divorced because my wife ran off with her lover while I was at work one day, stripping the house and bank account bare, and I never had one suspicion. I became so depressed that I said to hell with my military career, refused to re-enlist, and just bummed around for a year getting in trouble. It was the most miserable time of my life.
The illusion of control."If I just do this then this will happen." If I just show my spouse love and work hard for our life together, she'll love me in return. If I work hard, my boss will notice and reward me. If I raise my kids right, they'll grow up to be good people and stay out of trouble. Need I go on?
Sooner or later, in spite of your best efforts and planning, you'll look around and ask yourself, "What the hell happened?" Then you understand control of your life is an illusion.
I still refer to my favourite quotation (although I don't know who originally said it):
"Life is like a shopping trolley; you go partly where you want to, and partly where the damn thing takes you."
Summary: We iz in full control; we haz no control - iz fun!
So how can the screen be responsible for things that appear on it? When things no longer appear, can the mental screen be discerned at all?
No experiencer without the experiences. No thinker without thought. So how is there free will when no one is actually in charge?
I would like to take my retirement now. Aww man no control wins again.
Yes it does kind of change the calculation in the justice system. I think it becomes less punishment oriented and more reform and public safety oriented.
Good question, my computer and TV screens look black when they are on without any input or off but there is a noticeable difference there, not that the analogy necessarily works. There is the notion of bare attention and the clear-light nature of mind which is said to be able to be experienced free from thoughts and bodily sensations, so maybe.
The science of emergence explains that better than I can.
The observer/subject is inseparable from the observed/object. Or maybe the great illusion is that of a subject/self experiencing sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch and thoughts/feelings.
One of the great advantages of attaining jhànas is that as soon as you’ve got into a jhàna five “television sets” have completely vanished — not just popped out of existence for a moment, but popped out of existence for many hours. It’s not as if there’s nothing on the screen; there’s no screen any more! There is no sight. There is no sound. There’s not even any hearing. There’s no smell. There’s no taste. There’s no touch. This is because there’s no body when you’re in jhàna. It is pure mental consciousness.
Five “television sets” disappear, and you’ve just got this mind left. Be aware though that you can get stuck there. Some people with weak wisdom will think, “That’s it - the mind is the ultimate ‘television set’ that doesn’t disappear.” However you can either use inference or you can take those jhànas deeper, and you can see parts of that last “television set” get hacked away. From first jhàna to second jhànas you hack away at half the “television set”, initial and sustained application of mind (vitakka and vicàra). From second to third to fourth jhànas you hack away a heap more of that “television set”. You hack away at more of the “television set” and you get into the Immaterial Absorptions (àrupa jhànas). You keep hacking away until you get to cessation (nirodha samàpatti), when the whole of that last “television set” is gone. Consciousness has disappeared. That which knows has vanished. You come out of that experience, and there is no way that you can miss the meaning. That which we thought to be real, pervasive and stable, that which knows is a mirage!
http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/articles/item/1193-the-ending-of-things.html
We're working from different models (Theravada/Mahayana) so we may be talking past and around each other. That being said this is a pretty fuzzy area for me so I could be off the mark.
Relating it back to the original point, I'm not sure how awareness arising from past causes affects my idea of present knowledge affecting our ability to choose.
I believe we have no control over the changing circumstances of life. Save for how we respond to them. Whatever daydreams I once had were left on the battlefield.
@Cinorjer said, "A year later, I was divorced because my wife ran off with her lover while I was at work one day, stripping the house and bank account bare, and I never had one suspicion. I became so depressed that I said to hell with my military career,....
The illusion of control."If I just do this then this will happen." .... Need I go on?
Sooner or later, in spite of your best efforts and planning, you'll look around and ask yourself, "What the hell happened?" Then you understand control of your life is an illusion."
One thing this reminds me of is why I like Buddhism so much because it's got a far more realistic outlook on Life - seems like everyone has these Expectations that have no rhyme nor reason to start with - I mean, why trust anyone or expect certain behavior when faced with a total history of individuals changing their minds and just generally being such fickle mush heads? I don't think your scenario was one of lack of control or choice, but more of misplaced expectations. I think it's a mistake to think that we have no control at all. If it is true, we should all just plunk ourselves down in front of the TV and call it a day.
Clever girl she was.
@silver I had to laugh. As I remember, of all the things I called my ex after that, "clever girl" wasn't on the list. But yes, I suppose I could be using control in the meaning of expectations. But in the case of a marriage, for instance, you can and should expect to have a successful marriage, or else why get married? Yet whether you do or not is out of your control because it also depends on the other person.
To act without expectations, well that's kind of a Zen thing, isn't it? I try to do what the situation calls for, without demanding the result conform to my desires. Not easy to do. But if I plant a plum, I expect a plum tree will grow. I have no control over how fast it grows or when it starts giving fruit. And I realize I've just quoted Kung Foo Panda to make a Zen point so I'm going to stop myself right now and lie down.
A practitioner who believes they have no control has submitted to the scalpel of Dhamma. This leads neither inaction or pointlessness. It simply means going on without one of our more cherished delusions.
No, I believe that is the behaviour of a fatalist, not a Buddhist.
After 51 yrs of practice it would be a shame to have missed the mark.
Important difference. Fatalism means you believe you have no power to affect the future. I'm talking about knowing you can never be certain what future your actions will bring because there will always be elements outside of your control.
Choice is the illusion had...."I am just a thought who thinks I am thinking ie, "choosing" I am just a thought !"
Kind of like the chaos theory. We can control our actions but we cannot control the actions of others nor can we account for every variable.
I cannot do whatever I want or I'd sprout wings so that is not an option. The closest we can do there is build planes and stuff.
I don't buy into there being no control whatsoever but we are limited to the options at our disposal.
If it's a question of free will I figure if the future was set then that implies some kind of creator or programmer with nothing better to do than make pointless and redundant messes.
Whether we sit around all day or keep striving is not the point. The point is - lazing around or striving hard is actually not a choice that one makes but only appear to be so.
Our response is the result of multiple causes and conditions both known and unknown. Nothing is random in this case.
The choice that one makes is not conscious - so how can there be free will?
So did you choose to eat ice cream or was the decision already made before you become conscious of making that decision?
https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/03/25/yet-another-experiment-eroding-free-will/
Really good insights everyone.
I particularly liked:
I try to do what the situation calls for, without demanding the result conform to my desires. Not easy to do.
Our plans would always work out if not for ourselves, others and circumstances. Circumstances and others are not as easy to effect as ourselves ... yet those working with their monkey mind, know how even that most pragmatic starting practice of self change and awakening is not easy ...
We haz abandoned planning. Iz plan.
Good comments, Mr. Lobster - made me laugh (the last line abt abandoning plan).
Mr. Pegembara, I'm not the type to read really long involved articles, but to me, it doesn't matter what situations happened before I made up my mind to watch tv or wash dishes or whatever. In the moment, we all make our choices. That's my scientific theory and I'm sticking with it.
(I just chose to look out the window and think "God, I wish I lived somewhere warmer." Mind you, I've been doing that every day for the past 5 months.....Thinking is habit-forming.)
Fair enough. Perhaps one day if you care to look a little deeper into the choices we made, you might uncover something different.
It is your choice after all.
With ice-cream there is no need for a decision.
@pegembara said, "Fair enough. Perhaps one day if you care to look a little deeper into the choices we made, you might uncover something different."
I choose not to look into it because I choose not to be depressed which will lead to having no motivation. I choose to be a happy little _____.
@SpinyNorman said, "With ice-cream there is no need for a decision."
You must be big as a barn by now!
Jess kiddin'
I have cut back quite a lot, just a couple of litres a day ( only kidding ).
The problem with believing we have no choice is that a predetermination would have to take into account every cause and effect there ever was, is or ever will be.
This would mean that this is just another replay of events unfolding the exact same way every time. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense unless one subscribes to the big crunch theory as well as a single and unfractured timeline.
In a fractured timeline there could be time travelers and we wouldn't know it... We couldn't know it because as soon as a traveler goes back a new vein in the leaf is formed. They aren't changing this timeline, they are creating a fork in the road.
It's possible (and makes more sense really) that every time we make a decision we are creating the future and not following a path already set.
It seems at least some of the illusion of control comes from hindsight. I can look back to any point in my life, and wish or wonder where I'd be had to made Y choice instead of X choice. But the only thing that matters is that at that exact moment in my life, X choice was the only choice I could make. I can't use years of experience later to wish I had made a different choice earlier because I didn't have that information then. No matter how much we consider a choice, we're going to make that choice based on the information we have. It appears as if I always have a choice to do X or Y, but really I don't. Because whatever choice I make is the only choice there is.
I have a choice to make after tomorrow (a minor thing but important to me) and I've been stressing about it, worried I will regret my choice no matter which choice I make. I'm fighting for control but there is nothing to control.
I believe the idea of no control has more to do with ignorance and samsara than anything else. The concept of no control is just a concept or an idea than anything else. A free mind could possibly just be the key.
Apparently science has proved that there is no such thing as free will, and that every decision we make is actually mentally predetermined...That is to say, we think we've made a choice, but in fact, our brain has already chosen.
I think this is just another way of saying our thought process is not as fast as our mental impulses.
In all honesty that sounds like psuedo science and it certainly hasn't been proven that we only think we make decisions.
It sounds almost plausible until all factors are considered. It ultimately would mean the future is set.
This leads to all kinds of logical problems.
Ah, but that is saying something completely different and it takes a leap to conclude against free will because of that.
I cannot decide whether it's pseudo science or not.
Pseudo or not, read, mark, inwardly digest and choose which one you are most drawn to. That I think, determines whether you DO have free will, or not...
https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2013/09/25/no-you-dont-have-free-will-and-this-is-why/
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/scientists-say-free-will-probably-doesnt-exist-but-urge-dont-stop-believing/
I could see that, @federica. It's interesting to consider. I have moments where I seem to "separate" from parts of my brain and consider a different decision but the pull to follow the decision my brain has made is incredibly strong. I don't really know that that is. "They" talk about making decisions from the heart instead of the head, and I think there are times that has happened. But they are rare, and perhaps they aren't what I thought they were. The old "my heart says one thing, my brain says another" except not in relation to romantic love. It takes a very concentrated effort to try to operate from that space. But I'm not sure it's impossible.