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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@person said: I do think there is a thing as too much immigration. I decided to look up the actual percent of immigrant population by country to see just how bad it has gotten in the UK and I see its only %11.3. The US has %14.3, @ %25 if you include immigrants born here (the US and Canada are the only countries who grant birthright citizenship), Australia %27.7, New Zealand %25.1, and most of the rest of Europe is between %11 and %15.
Those are 'official' figures, and as such should be taken with a truckload of salt.
The UK Government has admitted it has no idea whether these figures are accurate, and admits in fact that in spite of 'official' figures, it actually has no idea, or way of calculating the TRUE figure of immigrants to this country, and they admit the figure is in reality, probably much higher. I would suspect the same can be said of any of the figures you list.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited July 2016
(Only too glad to help. For corrections of more epic proportions, anyone is free to PM me with a request to modify. Remember to pass me a link to the post...like this...)
i think it's a bit easier for us "Mer'cans to feel the way @karasti feels. Speaking from a USA pov, we have a country which is stupidy, unnecessarily large. Much larger than GB. In the case of a country as large as USA taking in a large number of refugees and/ or immigrants is not as big a deal as it would be for Brits. The same number of newcomers would spread out quite a bit more over here and thus be absorbed. (But we may have a "wall" soon to take care of that... gag) anyhow... I think both of you have a good point. Being kind, generous, and welcoming doesn't necessarily mean you need to give up everything you've got. There is only so much tea in the pot to pour... once the tea is all gone, you've either got to do without, or find more tea elsewhere.
I personally think 'Merica wouldn't be so hurt by accepting more incomers..... but I can't speak on another country.
@RuddyDuck9 said:
i think it's a bit easier for us "Mer'cans to feel the way @karasti feels. Speaking from a USA pov, we have a country which is stupidy, unnecessarily large. Much larger than GB. In the case of a country as large as USA taking in a large number of refugees and/ or immigrants is not as big a deal as it would be for Brits. The same number of newcomers would spread out quite a bit more over here and thus be absorbed. (But we may have a "wall" soon to take care of that... gag) anyhow... I think both of you have a good point. Being kind, generous, and welcoming doesn't necessarily mean you need to give up everything you've got. There is only so much tea in the pot to pour... once the tea is all gone, you've either got to do without, or find more tea elsewhere.
I personally think 'Merica wouldn't be so hurt by accepting more incomers..... but I can't speak on another country.
And considering that 'Merica is almost entirely composed of multigenerational newcomers to begin with, the idea of a singular national identity is even more absurd than other countries.
'Merica also serves as a good laboratory to show how the oppressed can quickly become the oppressor. Hence, the call for international standards of human rights.
The thing I try to remember is that almost all of us are the products of immigration to some extent. A lot of the resistance is to change. But clinging to keeping things the same and aversion to things changing is exactly what Buddha is trying to teach us about. I wonder what Buddha would do/say about the refugee and immigration crises around the world. In most cases, they are people simply seeking a better life. Who can blame them? If we are uncomfortable, then is that their fault? Or can we do things to make ourselves more comfortable? If you think it's uncomfortable to you to have some people around who don't speak your language, how do you think it feels for them to leave everything they know and go to a place and culture and people they don't know or understand? I'm not blaming anyone for how they feel. I'm just saying, how can we look at any situation differently rather than from solely our point of view to complain about what we are losing or what is changing?
I'm not bothered by other languages being spoken around me... that is unless they are clearly trying to tell me something and I haven't got the foggiest... hah! Like someone else said on this thread... it's arrogant to assume I have any business at all listening in on their private matters.
@RuddyDuck9 I didn't mean to imply you specifically, just in general It doesn't bother me either, but I do know a lot of people who find it rude and it makes them really uncomfortable. But really it seems they should be working with their discomfort rather than trying to make the other people fix it for them by speaking the right language. (again just my experience) It is a challenge to try to communicate sometimes! Hand signals can help! Was it here or elsewhere I read a story about someone in an ethnic grocery store where the worker did not speak English and the shopper was looking for onions. She used hand signals to explain by using a knife chopping motion and a "crying" face and the clerk realized right away what she meant. Some things are universal, lol.
I think a lot of the people here who get so upset at people who don't speak English just are afraid of a lot of things. If our fear is a result of our lack of trust in ourselves to deal with a situation, it makes a lot of sense (and I believe that is true). But instead of recognizing it as such, we put our fear on the other person and want them to change something to make us less afraid.
I think a lot of the people here who get so upset[...] just are afraid of a lot of things. If our fear is a result of our lack of trust in ourselves to deal with a situation, it makes a lot of sense (and I believe that is true). But instead of recognizing it as such, we put our fear on the other person and want them to change something to make us less afraid.
Do we think this is why the cafe folks did what they did? I mean, they obviously thought it was the right thing to do for them.... though I don't see how declining business is good business practice. You have to be pretty stalwart about something to put your livelihood and business in jeopardy over it.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Integration would be an ideal.
There is no integration, and the crime rate is up, because due to our loose supervision of our borders, we have permitted scroungers, opportunists, murderers, rapists and criminals to come in, unchecked.
They continue to break the law, abuse the system, lie, cheat, rape, murder and assault, and steal and commit crimes because frankly they don't give a damn about where they live or with whom.
I really want you to examine this novel idea you have about living in harmony with our neighbours and being totally accepting of them because there are a lot of good people who have come here, but unfortunately, there are an awful lot of 'bad' people too.
And when these people abuse the Human Rights Act and plead that they cannot be sent home because they have a right to a family life, or that their lives would be in danger from those seeking revenge - and they win, get to stay and continue living their totally unacceptable and nefarious existence - well, if you'd like to live within a community where these people walk and roam free, living on your taxes and income, feel free to pop on over any time and swap places.
I have no objection to those who wish to come to our shores, work, earn a living and contribute to the economy and to society.
Sadly, the UK has emerged as a'Soft touch' nation.
Why do you suppose that those coming to our shores have gone through several countries before arriving here?
@Shoshin said:
Colonisation is interesting, especially when it comes to the karmic consequences...
When I think about the moaning and whinging that goes on in the world (including here in Aotearoa 'Pakeha and Maori' alike both have a whinge) for example, "The bloody foreigners coming over and taking our jobs, buying up our land/properties etc etc " and then I think about the amount of countries that Britain and other European countries had colonised where the indigenous populations became 'second class citizens' (or worse slavery or genocide) in their own land...
That was then and this is now....Two wrongs don't make things "right"... but karma is not about right & wrong...It's just cause condition effect/fallout.
When I read the bit in bold I couldn't help but think this from South Park
LOL it is blocked in my country. Which is funny. (I know why, it's just amusing to me)
@RuddyDuck9 I'm not sure if their blocking Brexit leaders is an act of fear, or if it's more for the inevitable media attention that was sure to follow. Sometimes I think people do things like that just to make a point or to get attention but it doesn't necessarily mean they are afraid, though they could be.
I think a lot of the people here who get so upset at people who don't speak English just are afraid of a lot of things. If our fear is a result of our lack of trust in ourselves to deal with a situation, it makes a lot of sense (and I believe that is true). But instead of recognizing it as such, we put our fear on the other person and want them to change something to make us less afraid.
With all do respect @karasti I don't think you understand where we are coming from. So If I get a job or live somewhere in my own country were no one can speak English I should just get by all day every day using hand signals? Going into these jobs or areas is literally like stepping into a foreign country.
I'm not against immigration, I just think there should be a control on it. And more of an effort should be made by governments and the immigrants themselves to integrate into society. I can't imagine moving to another country and not making an effort to learn the language. But apparently it is expected of me to change to suit what people who move here want? I try my best but I am not a monk and would rather not have to feel like an outsider in my own country everyday.
To reiterate, I am not talking about bumping into the odd person in the shop or whatever who can't speak English, I am talking about dealing with the vast majority of people that one would come into contact during the day who are not interested in speaking English.
I should think the clear solution to the issues @federica is referencing here would be to kick the jerks out of the country when they don't pass a background check or when they show their true colors. However, the narrative above seems to imply that the bad guys aren't being sent away as they ought to be. Why does that make sense? How are the criminal elements of the immigrant population staying in the country?
@Shoshin said:
Colonisation is interesting, especially when it comes to the karmic consequences...
When I think about the moaning and whinging that goes on in the world (including here in Aotearoa 'Pakeha and Maori' alike both have a whinge) for example, "The bloody foreigners coming over and taking our jobs, buying up our land/properties etc etc " and then I think about the amount of countries that Britain and other European countries had colonised where the indigenous populations became 'second class citizens' (or worse slavery or genocide) in their own land...
That was then and this is now....Two wrongs don't make things "right"... but karma is not about right & wrong...It's just cause condition effect/fallout.
Colonisation is still happening except we now call it "Globalization". Large multinational corporations are destroying developing nations with the help of European countries and the the United States governments. Maybe the apathy from people in these countries is where the karmic consequences arises?
@RuddyDuck9 said:
I should think the clear solution to the issues @federica is referencing here would be to kick the jerks out of the country when they don't pass a background check or when they show their true colors. However, the narrative above seems to imply that the bad guys aren't being sent away as they ought to be. Why does that make sense? How are the criminal elements of the immigrant population staying in the country?
"Cultural Marxism" is a big problem in the west. People find ways to feel sorry for rapists and murderers by saying they had a hard life and deserve more chances. There are news stories all across Europe of violent criminals getting light sentences or just set free.
Certain people (the right wing) highlight whenever migrants get light sentences or set free and this helps increase their support because left wing governments won't give harsher sentences or deport criminals. The UK were blocked by the EU in the run up to the referendum from deporting a criminal and it played right into the hands of the leave campaign.
If people feel their governments won't protect them they will vote someone else in. These governments are the ones responsible for the rise of the right. There seems to be nothing but extremes in Europe whether it is left or right and with bank failures on the cards in Italy and Germany things are going to get a whole lot more interesting.
@Boru, no. that is not what I was saying or intending at all. I was talking only about individual cases where it might come in handy if one finds themselves in such a situation on a rare basis. Not on a daily work basis or any other such things. It was just an example.
Of course you should not have to learn their language. But you will have to adapt to them being in your life as much as they have to adapt to being there, so the effort to improve understanding on all levels comes from both sides. If you read what I said in my other post, I think I made it clear that yes, if you are moving or traveling in another country it's up to you to do the work to learn how to integrate and how to communicate, not expect them to be able to understand you. However, if a government is going to accept immigrants and refugees, it is up to them to provide resources for people to be able to do so. If they can't provide the resources to help all those people integrate then they need to rethink their plan and obviously a lot of the situation in the UK and Europe in general needs an improved plan. Immigrants can't just sit down with duolingo or Rosetta stone. Everything needs a plan. Immigration is no different. I never said otherwise.
But if a whole culture of people doesn't want to integrate with the country they moved to, why? Shouldn't they be working to figure that part out? I'd guess a lot of them are thinking of it as a short term solution and hoping they can go home soon. I understand the frustration. Despite living in a rural area now, I didn't always and the city we lived in dealt then, and is still dealing with a huge jump in diversity. But growth has to come from both directions. That is my only point. HERE we deal with a lot of extremely negative reactions, and that is a lot of what I was addressing. Where someone hears someone else speaking another language to their family and confronts them and tells them to learn English. That stuff happens a lot here. I wasn't saying it happens there, as I don't know. Those are the people who on an individual basis can work on their fear to better deal with people they don't understand. THOSE are the people and situations I was addressing in my comments not the entirety of the huge problems of immigration for the whole of Europe. Most of us can't do anything about that. But we can change how we interact on an individual basis, which is what I was trying to say.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@RuddyDuck9 said:
I should think the clear solution to the issues @federica is referencing here would be to kick the jerks out of the country when they don't pass a background check or when they show their true colors. However, the narrative above seems to imply that the bad guys aren't being sent away as they ought to be. Why does that make sense? How are the criminal elements of the immigrant population staying in the country?
Because they establish themselves here, and as European citizens can rely on the Human Rights Act to underpin their rights to a family life. They bring spouses here and have children and put them in school, so then they convince the courts that deportation would disrupt their lives excessively. So they get to stay.
And this isn't just the odd criminal. It happens again, and again, and again.
The Human Rights Act protects those who need protection. And rightly so.
But as with all good things, it gets horrendously abused by those who know how to exploit it to their advantage.
@karasti said> But if a whole culture of people doesn't want to integrate with the country they moved to, why?
Presumably because they prefer their own culture to that of the host country. They want a better material quality of life, but don't want the culture that comes with it
But is that a proven assumption? Have you talked to refugee centers and the services that work with immigrants to ask? Because a lot of people make that assumption, and I"m sure there are definitely people who are like that. But overwhelmingly when I have had conversations with people in the thick of the problem here, that is not usually the answer. It is more so an extreme lack of confidence in being accepted, a worry for their safety from a new culture who often is unwelcoming and exclusionary under the surface, and seeking the comforts of the familiar. They will have to adapt if they are going to stay. But the culture they came into still has to adapt to their presence as well and deal with their own fears about what it means. There is a sizable group of people here who think immigrants and refugees are coming to take over out country and erase our culture, which isn't true. But they do need a lot of help in joining a new culture and it takes a long time.
I understand what you are saying @karasti. I misunderstood some of your comments. It's just when I read your comments saying "here" I thought you meant here as in this thread, now I understand you meant here as in the US where you are living and that you were referring to a very different situation.
I do agree that both sides need to make an effort, it's just frustrating when you need to speak to someone who can't speak English and has been in the country five years.
@Boru yes, sorry for the confusion! In the US it is definitely different as there isn't much of a way for people to just come across the border, except from Mexico (Canada doesn't want in, they might be smart to build a wall to keep us out come our election in November). So those who immigrate can only get in where we let them in, and then they are assigned to resources in communities who have agreed to take them in (at least to some extent). There is not an overflowing in any one area usually. The southern states are the ones having trouble because similar to Europe but on a smaller scale. People from Mexico and Central America and then Cuba can find ways across the border and just show up. It's kind of the same in that most often they will find help if they can manage to get across. Legal immigration is extremely expensive and time consuming and usually requires a lawyer, which is prohibitive for almost everyone who is in dire straits to change their lives. So it's a complex matter. We have people who want to help and we have people who want to shoot them on site and Trump and his followers who just want to build a wall and pretend there is no problem.
Like is often the case, a lot of the problems in the areas people are escaping are due to us fueling the drug trade and other issues. So we create problems and then don't want to deal with the fall out. Same as war. We create or contribute to problems that people have to run from, and then we don't want to help them when their lives fall apart. It's complex all around.
All we can work with is our own minds and lives though, no matter what the issue happens to be. It's quite possible many of the people you run across are working on learning English but don't know it enough to be confident in its use. If I were in their shoes, I might feel more comfortable speaking my native language because at least I know it, and I don't have to worry someone will verbally assault and insult me for doing it wrong. Which happens a lot here, too. Even if they try, they are mocked and ridiculed. Why bother? In any case, I'm not offering excuses, just saying I try to find other perspectives, as it softens the way I think of those I consider adversaries. it makes it easier to offer a smile rather than eye rolling out of frustration.
Let's say an Arab moves to some other country, speaks Arabic mostly, dresses like an Arab, eats Arabic food, etc. Basically, he follows his culture in the foreign country. What's the worst thing that could happen because of this? If anything, wouldn't this enrich the local cultures, adding more color and variety?
@techie part of the problem, I think, is that for people to feel enriched, they also need information, not just an experience. They have questions about customs, culture, etc and being completely unable to communicate means that exchange cannot happen in either direction. There are going to be places where these cultures overlap, and communication is necessary and when neither side can do so, it leads to frustration and tension. I don't think the problem is them following their culture/customs/language, but being unable to both understand and communicate to people of the other culture/customs/language. It leads to barriers being formed on both sides when communication is impossible.
Now that excluding cafe owners, inclusive Europeans and other monkey minded tribalists have had their morning rant, what now?
E=MC2 or perhaps Europe 2 run by people for people ( preferably Britain as that is my tribe )?
Basically we can export our impoverished and disenfranchised to lead a preferred life style in a second European franchise.
Those who chose to stay will have to learn to speak, think and educate their children, parents and their European neighbours. The NHS can become International Health Service. Any plans?
We are British Borg
Resistence oh Europe, is Futile.
You will be assimulated
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@techie said:
Let's say an Arab moves to some other country, speaks Arabic mostly, dresses like an Arab, eats Arabic food, etc. Basically, he follows his culture in the foreign country. What's the worst thing that could happen because of this? If anything, wouldn't this enrich the local cultures, adding more color and variety?
Well...You tell me. How long would this scenario be sustainable, do you think? And are you talking about one single person on his own...?
Or conversely, think of what would happen if you moved to say, Istanbul and attempted to speak English, wear Western clothes and eat the kind of food you are used to.
Try to follow your culture - on your own - and tell me what you think would happen....
My feeling is that the EU will have to rebrand or develop into a non-starbucks type cafe of one philosophy fits all. It is the imposition on our most vulnerable that is always the result.
Here are some of the competing values the E2 (The Brit Franchise) can offer. http://bbc.in/29fQtm8
First come, first served. We Brits invented and refined queueing.
Humour. We only left the EU so we could laugh about everything to do with the process.
It appears to me that immigration per se is not the problem as much as the type of people who take advantage of vague expectations and lax regulations.
I do think that a host country has the right to set certain rules like the requirement for immigrants to learn the host language, to respect freedom of speech and to respect the host county's cultural habits. (I think France and Germany have come to those conclusions.)
Those immigrants who are unwilling to adapt need to relocate someplace else, where they will fit in better. Often, I assume, it is an unwillingness to comply, not a matter of not being able to integrate. Anyone can learn a language and anyone can be expected to tolerate other cultures, esp as guest in a new country.
(As for refugees, they did not necessarily choose to live in any particular country, so different reasoning and tolerances apply, but integration would be expected just the same...)
I live in the US and I am an immigrant myself, having arrived from Europe to live in the US some 34 years ago after meeting my future husband. My biggest concern for the first 3 years was to learn the culture - language, habits, customs, jokes, lifestyles... so I could understand my new environment and fit in. I think that is how it should be. Anything less leads to alienation, a breakdown of communication and on a bigger scale a fragile community, even in the most abstract sense.
It leads to unhappiness for everyone, when the safety net of community and the sharing of common ideals gets watered down and finally destroyed. Suddenly your community is marked by holistility. This is magnified by an increase in population density (like in the UK) where you end up getting on each other's nerves constantly with no breathing room nor option of escape.
If Americans cannot grasp the problems that the Brits are describing here, then try to think of how you feel entering black areas of towns.... You are not a racist, and yet, distrust and aloofness is prevalent and communication is an uneasy effort. Resentment and otherness may never go away, much as you try to alleviate the situation. Under such circumstances there is no basis for feeling included, safe and at home, and it gets worse in a very crowded the community.
The question is, IMO, does leaving the EU really solve any of these problems? The referendum, IMO, was a stupid, ego driven idea, allowing the uninformed general public to make an enormous decision and allowing political forces with ulterior motives to feed unhappy, gullible folks bold faced lies about how things would improve....
The problems discussed here (and that linked article speaks volumes about the nature of these conflicts) would need novel solutions, independent of whether the UK is part of the EU or not. The labor market is globalised no matter where you turn, we are all in deep trouble re the global economy, the environment and big money currupting our so called democracies. These issues persist with an independent UK and with a UK attached to Europe.
As long as corporations are able to plunder the economies of poor nations, those who have been robbed the most off their abilities to make a living in their own country will seek out those places that seem to offer them hope to sustain themselves.
I have no idea how this is going to get resolved, but Brexit has taken a myopic view on the matter and the fake solution of "in/out" is just as small minded.
(The Buddhist spin on immigration: compassion yes, but not *idiot compassion".)
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Very balanced post.
I think both sides of the voting public were misled and misinformed on many important matters, and focus (as you rightly state) fell squarely (I omit 'fairly and..') on the issue of mass and excessive immigration. I believe this factor alone, is probably what carried the motion.
We are bound by Law to accept all legitimate immigration of European subjects whether we like it or not. And unless an immigrant breaks the Law on British soil, and is discovered, investigated and found to be guilty, here they can stay.
(There are several high-profile stories of immigrants with severe criminal records being permitted into the UK unchecked or unimpeded. They have since gone on to continue their lives of criminal intent, with dreadful and occasionally fatal results for their victims.)
If a person from a European community wishes to enter the UK, and they have the required valid documentation, they are permitted to enter, as Law requires.
It is a supposed and accepted premise that traffic of UK citizens exiting from the UK wishing to establish themselves elsewhere, is equally legitimate and acceptable.
However, the numbers of UK citizens taking this option are far and away much, much lower.
Why?
Because the lifestyle of these reciprocating countries is not conducive to a comfortable or profitable existence.
It can be said, therefore, with little likelihood of contradiction, that traffic of migrants in the EU is largely one way.
Those immigrants who are unwilling to adapt need to relocate someplace else, where they will fit in better.
Theoretically, that would be the ideal, and everybody's objective.
In practice, this never happens. They cannot be legitimately relocated on the premise of non-adaptation. It's not against the law.
They themselves fit in precisely as they wish. They locate communities of fellow countrymen, and integrate with them, and learn how to live in the UK by following the examples set, as they see fit.
Some - the majority, it must be said - are law-abiding, conscientious and clean-living individuals.
A small proportion, aren't.
But what they have in common, is that there is a perpetuation of a closet mind-set that states, while they can live as ~ insert specific origin here ~ and have no pressing need to do otherwise, they will prefer to do so, which results in a multi-national country (as the UK has been for centuries) attempting to house multi-cultural huddles of alien communities which, rather than creating harmony, togetherness, cooperation and understanding, do the exact opposite.
I think a lot of this talk about immigrants, crime, weird customs, fear of the unknown, etc results in and exhibits selective "compassion" (yes, those are scare quotes) based on very general ideas about very large, varying groups of people. I noticed that even the term "cultural marxism" is being thrown around here. At least here in the U.S., that word is thrown around to describe anything that falls outside the sledgehammer approach to everything that the two main parties employ, which more often than not isn't based in one iota of evidence, rather emoting and playing to emotional voter reaction. This is often done by taking anecdotal evidence ("see the horror of what this foreigner did!") and imply that it's routine. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Sorry, but human rights don't apply to just some people, because they then cease to be human rights.
From an American perspective, I can certainly tell you what _doesn'_t work for society regarding some of these things, yet I see musings about more hardline policies in Britain and some places in Europe. For sure, the U.S. is a much larger country which gives it a geographical advantage over the countries across the atlantic regarding space. It's quite huge. American politicians continue to use the same tropes.
But this is the UK! Surely, with the waves of foreign nationals, there must be dangerous criminals sliding in the cracks, roving throughout the UK!
"Whilst increases in both the number of foreign nationals entering the UK and the number of foreign nationals in UK prisons has strengthened the association between immigration and crime in the public imagination, there is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign nationals are more dangerous than British nationals."
@Deformed said:
I think a lot of this talk about immigrants, crime, weird customs, fear of the unknown, etc results in and exhibits selective "compassion" (yes, those are scare quotes) based on very general ideas about very large, varying groups of people. Even the term "cultural marxism" is being thrown around here. At least here in the U.S., that word is thrown around to describe anything that falls outside the sledgehammer approach to everything that the two main parties employ, which more often than not isn't based in one iota of evidence, rather emoting and playing to emotional voter reaction. This is often done by taking anecdotal evidence (see the horror of what this foreigner did!) and imply that it's routine. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Sorry, but human rights don't apply to just some people, because they then cease to be human rights.
From an American perspective, I can certainly tell you what doesn't work for society regarding some of these things, yet I see musings about more hardline policies in Britain and some places in Europe. For sure, the U.S. is a much larger country which gives it a geographical advantage over the countries across the atlantic regarding space. It's quite huge. And yet, American politicians continue to use the same tropes.
But this is the UK! Surely, with the waves of foreign nationals, there must be dangerous criminals sliding in the cracks, roving throughout the UK!
"Whilst increases in both the number of foreign nationals entering the UK and the number of foreign nationals in UK prisons has strengthened the association between immigration and crime in the public imagination, there is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign nationals are more dangerous than British nationals."
When I referred to "cultural Marxism", I was referring to in the media/police/government who cover up migrant sex crimes so as not to look racist and also people who are soft on violent criminals in general. The beliefs of the media and governments across the EU are at odds with the people and there is going to be a big shock for them when the far right gets more power.
If we want to stop the rise of the far right more needs to be done to protect women and children from sex offenders no matter if they are nationals or foreign. Right wing politicians shouting "see the horror of what this foreigner did!" works for them gaining support. And it is the people who refuse to see the problems and carry on like everything is ok that are pushing people to the right.
Oh, fyi your links are three/four years old. The crisis in Europe is happening for the last one/two years.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Deformed said: Sorry, but human rights don't apply to just some people, because they then cease to be human rights.
Oh, really...?
The USA's own record of adopting the Human Rights Act, is apparently highly questionable... It seems it can - and does - discriminate on many levels, whereas the UK is bound by its own commitment.
@Deformed said: Sorry, but human rights don't apply to just some people, because they then cease to be human rights.
Oh, really...?
The USA's own record of adopting the Human Rights Act, is apparently highly questionable... It seems it can - and does - discriminate on many levels, whereas the UK is bound by its own commitment.
The U.S. is a prime example of exactly what I described: selective application. I never argued otherwise. As a matter of fact, the U.S. criminal justice system should be a lesson in itself for those who would like to discriminate on many levels in other countries.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
But we're not discriminating. This has been said ad nauseam in this thread. There is no racism or discrimination. This is merely the desire of an existent population to stem the apparently unstoppable tide of immigration - both ;lawful and unlawful - because the number of people from other countries is getting overwhelming and to many, a frightening prospect.
While discrimination DOES exist - I would be the first to admit that - the majority of the indigenous population would simply like a say in the matter.
@Deformed said:
I think a lot of this talk about immigrants, crime, weird customs, fear of the unknown, etc results in and exhibits selective "compassion" (yes, those are scare quotes) based on very general ideas about very large, varying groups of people. Even the term "cultural marxism" is being thrown around here. At least here in the U.S., that word is thrown around to describe anything that falls outside the sledgehammer approach to everything that the two main parties employ, which more often than not isn't based in one iota of evidence, rather emoting and playing to emotional voter reaction. This is often done by taking anecdotal evidence (see the horror of what this foreigner did!) and imply that it's routine. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Sorry, but human rights don't apply to just some people, because they then cease to be human rights.
From an American perspective, I can certainly tell you what doesn't work for society regarding some of these things, yet I see musings about more hardline policies in Britain and some places in Europe. For sure, the U.S. is a much larger country which gives it a geographical advantage over the countries across the atlantic regarding space. It's quite huge. And yet, American politicians continue to use the same tropes.
But this is the UK! Surely, with the waves of foreign nationals, there must be dangerous criminals sliding in the cracks, roving throughout the UK!
"Whilst increases in both the number of foreign nationals entering the UK and the number of foreign nationals in UK prisons has strengthened the association between immigration and crime in the public imagination, there is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign nationals are more dangerous than British nationals."
When I referred to "cultural Marxism", I was referring to in the media/police/government who cover up migrant sex crimes so as not to look racist and also people who are soft on violent criminals in general. The beliefs of the media and governments across the EU are at odds with the people and there is going to be a big shock for them when the far right gets more power.
If we want to stop the rise of the far right more needs to be done to protect women and children from sex offenders no matter if they are nationals or foreign. Right wing politicians shouting "see the horror of what this foreigner did!" works for them gaining support. And it is the people who refuse to see the problems and carry on like everything is ok that are pushing people to the right.
Oh, fyi your links are three/four years old. The crisis in Europe is happening for the last one/two years.
I'm not sure if the sources you posted were meant to show the "far right" perspective that you're describing, but if so, they are perfect specimens, complete with specific examples. Breitbart is well-known in the US, the Gatestone Institute is relatively known (John Bolton, George W Bush's UN ambassador), and the Daily Express, which is aligned with UKIP.
I'm not sure who is advocating for letting people commit crimes like rape under the banner of "cultural marxism" that you described, but that idea is a bit extreme, wouldn't you say?
Yes, the studies on migrants in the UK that I referenced are around 3-4 years old. Are there some studies you could share that reflect what you're describing, like overall trends taht contradict the studies I cited?
@Deformed. The Guardian and the Independent aren't "far right". The police are engaged in cover ups of sex crimes and criminals are not being punished. There are loads of stories online from a wide range of news sources that report what is happening.
The reason I pointed out that the studies you linked were 3-4 years old is because the majority of those immigrants would of went through the proper legal channels. The migrants that walked into Europe weren't checked out or vetted and if they commit crimes they are unlikely to be deported or receive long sentences .
Nobody is "advocating for letting people commit crimes like rape under the banner of "cultural marxism"". My point was that there seems to be many people in positions of influence who are giving light sentences or allowing criminals to be free because the line of thought is criminals are victims of their own circumstances. Which is usually associated with far-left wing thinking.
Reflexive actions that take no attempt to understand the larger picture and trends, ignoring nuance, while picking out anecdotal events, is troubling.
I saw no mention of described coverups in your Telegraph article, but rather about rise in general violent crime (knives and alcohol mentioned) in London regarding migrants. The other two articles from the Independent and Guardian do talk about a specific coverup in Cologne, where their police chief was fired.
I also find articles about a specific case of sexual assault on a Swedish woman and leniency on perpetrators (based on the article's info alone) incredibly sad, but what I also find sad is the obviously racist display of a generic photograph of an unrelated Arab (?) male standing in public right above the article (the Breitbart article).
Reflexive actions that take no attempt to understand the larger picture and trends, ignoring nuance, while picking out anecdotal events, is troubling.
I saw no mention of described coverups in your Telegraph article, but rather about rise in general violent crime (knives and alcohol mentioned) in London regarding migrants. The other two articles from the Independent and Guardian do talk about a specific coverup in Cologne, where their police chief was fired.
I also find articles about a specific case of sexual assault on a Swedish woman and leniency on Afghan perpetrators incredibly sad, but what I also find sad is the obviously racist display of a generic photograph of an unrelated Arab (?) male standing in public right above the article (the Breitbart article).
I accept what you are saying here @Deformed. I read and watch a lot of news from many perspectives, which probably isn't such a good idea anyway. I have built up a perception of what is happening in Europe. Of people being banned from pools in Germany and Sweden to police issuing warnings to Women not to walk in certain areas and many more negative news stories. But I know the majority of migrants are most likely good people.
If this migrant crisis had been handled better, maybe accepting people from camps in Turkey and Syria to begin with and deport people who commit heinous crimes. Instead I fear that this crisis is going to lead to more problems. Political instability with people of the same mindset of Trump gaining more power and influence across Europe. More could of been done to avoid this situation and more can be done to try and fix it such as the control of the flow of people and who gets in. That is all. I do apologize for the distasteful links. They were linked in haste.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
After reading the bottom half of this page, it crosses my mind that lots of people who leave their home countries - for whatever reasons - seem to have come to a consensus that the 'big' countries that allow a lot of that - are supposed to allow it - they expect to be 'helped' or allowed in no matter what. And if anything is manipulating the whole situation, the most powerful governments would be the ones. The vote seems to be enough people saying 'enough'.
...Which brings to mind the old population control thing - If China can do it, maybe others could and should. If people won't govern themselves, something will step in and do it for them.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Ooooh, let's not bring in Chinese population control... Man, that would be inhuman... baby girls abandoned in the street and left to die of cold and starvation, and Mao Tse Tung responsible for 78 million deaths. Read that again. 78 million people died because of his direct orders.
I don't think the Chinese method of population control would be... 'acceptable'.....
Reflexive actions that take no attempt to understand the larger picture and trends, ignoring nuance, while picking out anecdotal events, is troubling.
I saw no mention of described coverups in your Telegraph article, but rather about rise in general violent crime (knives and alcohol mentioned) in London regarding migrants. The other two articles from the Independent and Guardian do talk about a specific coverup in Cologne, where their police chief was fired.
I also find articles about a specific case of sexual assault on a Swedish woman and leniency on Afghan perpetrators incredibly sad, but what I also find sad is the obviously racist display of a generic photograph of an unrelated Arab (?) male standing in public right above the article (the Breitbart article).
I accept what you are saying here @Deformed. I read and watch a lot of news from many perspectives, which probably isn't such a good idea anyway. I have built up a perception of what is happening in Europe. Of people being banned from pools in Germany and Sweden to police issuing warnings to Women not to walk in certain areas and many more negative news stories. But I know the majority of migrants are most likely good people.
If this migrant crisis had been handled better, maybe accepting people from camps in Turkey and Syria to begin with and deport people who commit heinous crimes. Instead I fear that this crisis is going to lead to more problems. Political instability with people of the same mindset of Trump gaining more power and influence across Europe. More could of been done to avoid this situation and more can be done to try and fix it such as the control of the flow of people and who gets in. That is all. I do apologize for the distasteful links. They were linked in haste.
I think we have common ground in this. I've found this whole thing a good opportunity for practice (I must tie this in with why we're all here in the first place!), because I think times like this call for it the most.
I do understand that these crises have a cause, as the entire region where many are coming from are fleeing places that have been destabilized through my country's intervention, and it's difficult because there are no easy answers to questions on public safety. A lot is happening quickly and there is lots of confusion.
I need to practice compassion today. For the migrants, the anti-migrants, for victims of crime and the criminals.
No worries on the links, but thank you.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited July 2016
Eventually disease, famine, war will catch up with out of control population numbers. Malthus was not wrong, growth cannot continue forever.
But it is a question what will prove less pleasant in the end - that outcome, and the biosphere destruction we will have along the way, or planned population control of one sort or another.
@Deformed I was just thinking about the geographical thing, too. In the US, it is very common for people of all types of ethnicity, ancestry, cultures, to group together and live their culture in the midst of US culture. This happens a lot in MN. While the state as a whole isn't widely known for it's diversity, we have quite a large immigrant population, many Hmong, Somalis, Tibetans, and others. But you will always find them in pockets. I think that is pretty common in most of the US even in the most diverse and large cities. I imagine some of the problem in the UK and elsewhere in Europe is that there just isn't the space to allow this anymore. There are too many people living close together to allow space for pockets of other cultures where they aren't directly clashing.
I'm on the fence about whether this is good or not. Here, they seem to integrate fairly well while keeping their neighborhoods. It's certainly not uncommon for people to do this. I live in a part of the state that was settled by almost entirely Finnish and Scandinavian people. Though we have some retirees and transplants, the area is still largely generations of the families who settled her 150 years ago. There are pros and cons to it. The sense of community is much greater. Because our families relied on each other, that sense of reliance is still there, and it's nice. You're never just alone and on your own. Someone is always there to help. That is lacking in a lot of cities and urban areas, but I bet it is a lot of the reason different cultures continue to segregate. They can rely on each other and trust each other based on many shared factors from beliefs to food to holidays.
But, we have decent resources here, too. People are assigned individual volunteer or case workers and they basically have someone to hold their hand in every aspect of integrating and becoming a "useful" member of the society they find themselves in. They are required to get jobs which pretty much requires them to learn the language. Usually classes taught by volunteers are part of it. But that is a benefit of being able to pick and choose who we allow in, and where they go, usually they are settled purposely with other family members or people from their country.
I imagine that is all impossible to do with the situation in Europe. Not only are there way too many people coming in to have those resources and the people to manage everyone, but there just is not enough space, either.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@federica said:
Ooooh, let's not bring in Chinese population control... Man, that would be inhuman... baby girls abandoned in the street and left to die of cold and starvation, and Mao Tse Tung responsible for 78 million deaths. Read that again. 78 million people died because of his direct orders.
I don't think the Chinese method of population control would be... 'acceptable'.....
Ups, I didn't think too deeply about that - was thinking in terms of either women being put on birth control and men being given vasectomies. It was never a neat and clean sort of law. Sorry, didn't think that one through, BUT what needs to be done needs to be done and if it isn't, then that seems more suffering for us all.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
One thing is 100% certain: Whatever is - or is NOT done - someone will end up suffering.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
@Kerome said:
Eventually disease, famine, war will catch up with out of control population numbers. Malthus was not wrong, growth cannot continue forever.
But it is a question what will prove less pleasant in the end - that outcome, and the biosphere destruction we will have along the way, or planned population control of one sort or another.
True. Why do you think the powers that be in either gov or religion seem to have become like Siamese twins? sorry but esp catholic - more babies more inexperienced provide more cannon fodder and slaves. If a cap was put on the world's population everyone would have a lot better chance at education and wisdom - less likely for the gp to be taken advantage of.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
It seems like the EU, for better or worse, is attempting to turn nations into states. If I imagined the US where each state was its own sovereign nation that had its own language in addition to cultural differences, I don't imagine that most states would be all that happy to give up the ability to control who lives and works there. States rights vs national rights is still a hotly debated field and we were founded as a united republic. I'm on team brexit for wanting self-determination. I'm off the team for the xenophobia, its something we've seen in the US forever and have seen through its hyperbole.
Comments
Those are 'official' figures, and as such should be taken with a truckload of salt.
The UK Government has admitted it has no idea whether these figures are accurate, and admits in fact that in spite of 'official' figures, it actually has no idea, or way of calculating the TRUE figure of immigrants to this country, and they admit the figure is in reality, probably much higher. I would suspect the same can be said of any of the figures you list.
Thanks for the correction....@federica
(Only too glad to help. For corrections of more epic proportions, anyone is free to PM me with a request to modify. Remember to pass me a link to the post...like this...)
i think it's a bit easier for us "Mer'cans to feel the way @karasti feels. Speaking from a USA pov, we have a country which is stupidy, unnecessarily large. Much larger than GB. In the case of a country as large as USA taking in a large number of refugees and/ or immigrants is not as big a deal as it would be for Brits. The same number of newcomers would spread out quite a bit more over here and thus be absorbed. (But we may have a "wall" soon to take care of that... gag) anyhow... I think both of you have a good point. Being kind, generous, and welcoming doesn't necessarily mean you need to give up everything you've got. There is only so much tea in the pot to pour... once the tea is all gone, you've either got to do without, or find more tea elsewhere.
I personally think 'Merica wouldn't be so hurt by accepting more incomers..... but I can't speak on another country.
And considering that 'Merica is almost entirely composed of multigenerational newcomers to begin with, the idea of a singular national identity is even more absurd than other countries.
'Merica also serves as a good laboratory to show how the oppressed can quickly become the oppressor. Hence, the call for international standards of human rights.
The thing I try to remember is that almost all of us are the products of immigration to some extent. A lot of the resistance is to change. But clinging to keeping things the same and aversion to things changing is exactly what Buddha is trying to teach us about. I wonder what Buddha would do/say about the refugee and immigration crises around the world. In most cases, they are people simply seeking a better life. Who can blame them? If we are uncomfortable, then is that their fault? Or can we do things to make ourselves more comfortable? If you think it's uncomfortable to you to have some people around who don't speak your language, how do you think it feels for them to leave everything they know and go to a place and culture and people they don't know or understand? I'm not blaming anyone for how they feel. I'm just saying, how can we look at any situation differently rather than from solely our point of view to complain about what we are losing or what is changing?
I'm not bothered by other languages being spoken around me... that is unless they are clearly trying to tell me something and I haven't got the foggiest...
hah! Like someone else said on this thread... it's arrogant to assume I have any business at all listening in on their private matters.
@RuddyDuck9 I didn't mean to imply you specifically, just in general
It doesn't bother me either, but I do know a lot of people who find it rude and it makes them really uncomfortable. But really it seems they should be working with their discomfort rather than trying to make the other people fix it for them by speaking the right language. (again just my experience) It is a challenge to try to communicate sometimes! Hand signals can help! Was it here or elsewhere I read a story about someone in an ethnic grocery store where the worker did not speak English and the shopper was looking for onions. She used hand signals to explain by using a knife chopping motion and a "crying" face and the clerk realized right away what she meant. Some things are universal, lol.
I think a lot of the people here who get so upset at people who don't speak English just are afraid of a lot of things. If our fear is a result of our lack of trust in ourselves to deal with a situation, it makes a lot of sense (and I believe that is true). But instead of recognizing it as such, we put our fear on the other person and want them to change something to make us less afraid.
Do we think this is why the cafe folks did what they did? I mean, they obviously thought it was the right thing to do for them.... though I don't see how declining business is good business practice. You have to be pretty stalwart about something to put your livelihood and business in jeopardy over it.
Integration would be an ideal.
There is no integration, and the crime rate is up, because due to our loose supervision of our borders, we have permitted scroungers, opportunists, murderers, rapists and criminals to come in, unchecked.
They continue to break the law, abuse the system, lie, cheat, rape, murder and assault, and steal and commit crimes because frankly they don't give a damn about where they live or with whom.
I really want you to examine this novel idea you have about living in harmony with our neighbours and being totally accepting of them because there are a lot of good people who have come here, but unfortunately, there are an awful lot of 'bad' people too.
And when these people abuse the Human Rights Act and plead that they cannot be sent home because they have a right to a family life, or that their lives would be in danger from those seeking revenge - and they win, get to stay and continue living their totally unacceptable and nefarious existence - well, if you'd like to live within a community where these people walk and roam free, living on your taxes and income, feel free to pop on over any time and swap places.
I have no objection to those who wish to come to our shores, work, earn a living and contribute to the economy and to society.
Sadly, the UK has emerged as a'Soft touch' nation.
Why do you suppose that those coming to our shores have gone through several countries before arriving here?
When I read the bit in bold I couldn't help but think this from South Park
One of my favourite South Park clips!
LOL it is blocked in my country. Which is funny. (I know why, it's just amusing to me)
@RuddyDuck9 I'm not sure if their blocking Brexit leaders is an act of fear, or if it's more for the inevitable media attention that was sure to follow. Sometimes I think people do things like that just to make a point or to get attention but it doesn't necessarily mean they are afraid, though they could be.
With all do respect @karasti I don't think you understand where we are coming from. So If I get a job or live somewhere in my own country were no one can speak English I should just get by all day every day using hand signals? Going into these jobs or areas is literally like stepping into a foreign country.
I'm not against immigration, I just think there should be a control on it. And more of an effort should be made by governments and the immigrants themselves to integrate into society. I can't imagine moving to another country and not making an effort to learn the language. But apparently it is expected of me to change to suit what people who move here want? I try my best but I am not a monk and would rather not have to feel like an outsider in my own country everyday.
To reiterate, I am not talking about bumping into the odd person in the shop or whatever who can't speak English, I am talking about dealing with the vast majority of people that one would come into contact during the day who are not interested in speaking English.
I should think the clear solution to the issues @federica is referencing here would be to kick the jerks out of the country when they don't pass a background check or when they show their true colors. However, the narrative above seems to imply that the bad guys aren't being sent away as they ought to be. Why does that make sense? How are the criminal elements of the immigrant population staying in the country?
Colonisation is still happening except we now call it "Globalization". Large multinational corporations are destroying developing nations with the help of European countries and the the United States governments. Maybe the apathy from people in these countries is where the karmic consequences arises?
"Cultural Marxism" is a big problem in the west. People find ways to feel sorry for rapists and murderers by saying they had a hard life and deserve more chances. There are news stories all across Europe of violent criminals getting light sentences or just set free.
Certain people (the right wing) highlight whenever migrants get light sentences or set free and this helps increase their support because left wing governments won't give harsher sentences or deport criminals. The UK were blocked by the EU in the run up to the referendum from deporting a criminal and it played right into the hands of the leave campaign.
If people feel their governments won't protect them they will vote someone else in. These governments are the ones responsible for the rise of the right. There seems to be nothing but extremes in Europe whether it is left or right and with bank failures on the cards in Italy and Germany things are going to get a whole lot more interesting.
@Boru, no. that is not what I was saying or intending at all. I was talking only about individual cases where it might come in handy if one finds themselves in such a situation on a rare basis. Not on a daily work basis or any other such things. It was just an example.
Of course you should not have to learn their language. But you will have to adapt to them being in your life as much as they have to adapt to being there, so the effort to improve understanding on all levels comes from both sides. If you read what I said in my other post, I think I made it clear that yes, if you are moving or traveling in another country it's up to you to do the work to learn how to integrate and how to communicate, not expect them to be able to understand you. However, if a government is going to accept immigrants and refugees, it is up to them to provide resources for people to be able to do so. If they can't provide the resources to help all those people integrate then they need to rethink their plan and obviously a lot of the situation in the UK and Europe in general needs an improved plan. Immigrants can't just sit down with duolingo or Rosetta stone. Everything needs a plan. Immigration is no different. I never said otherwise.
But if a whole culture of people doesn't want to integrate with the country they moved to, why? Shouldn't they be working to figure that part out? I'd guess a lot of them are thinking of it as a short term solution and hoping they can go home soon. I understand the frustration. Despite living in a rural area now, I didn't always and the city we lived in dealt then, and is still dealing with a huge jump in diversity. But growth has to come from both directions. That is my only point. HERE we deal with a lot of extremely negative reactions, and that is a lot of what I was addressing. Where someone hears someone else speaking another language to their family and confronts them and tells them to learn English. That stuff happens a lot here. I wasn't saying it happens there, as I don't know. Those are the people who on an individual basis can work on their fear to better deal with people they don't understand. THOSE are the people and situations I was addressing in my comments not the entirety of the huge problems of immigration for the whole of Europe. Most of us can't do anything about that. But we can change how we interact on an individual basis, which is what I was trying to say.
Because they establish themselves here, and as European citizens can rely on the Human Rights Act to underpin their rights to a family life. They bring spouses here and have children and put them in school, so then they convince the courts that deportation would disrupt their lives excessively. So they get to stay.
And this isn't just the odd criminal. It happens again, and again, and again.
The Human Rights Act protects those who need protection. And rightly so.
But as with all good things, it gets horrendously abused by those who know how to exploit it to their advantage.
Presumably because they prefer their own culture to that of the host country. They want a better material quality of life, but don't want the culture that comes with it
But is that a proven assumption? Have you talked to refugee centers and the services that work with immigrants to ask? Because a lot of people make that assumption, and I"m sure there are definitely people who are like that. But overwhelmingly when I have had conversations with people in the thick of the problem here, that is not usually the answer. It is more so an extreme lack of confidence in being accepted, a worry for their safety from a new culture who often is unwelcoming and exclusionary under the surface, and seeking the comforts of the familiar. They will have to adapt if they are going to stay. But the culture they came into still has to adapt to their presence as well and deal with their own fears about what it means. There is a sizable group of people here who think immigrants and refugees are coming to take over out country and erase our culture, which isn't true. But they do need a lot of help in joining a new culture and it takes a long time.
I understand what you are saying @karasti. I misunderstood some of your comments. It's just when I read your comments saying "here" I thought you meant here as in this thread, now I understand you meant here as in the US where you are living and that you were referring to a very different situation.
I do agree that both sides need to make an effort, it's just frustrating when you need to speak to someone who can't speak English and has been in the country five years.
@Boru yes, sorry for the confusion! In the US it is definitely different as there isn't much of a way for people to just come across the border, except from Mexico (Canada doesn't want in, they might be smart to build a wall to keep us out come our election in November). So those who immigrate can only get in where we let them in, and then they are assigned to resources in communities who have agreed to take them in (at least to some extent). There is not an overflowing in any one area usually. The southern states are the ones having trouble because similar to Europe but on a smaller scale. People from Mexico and Central America and then Cuba can find ways across the border and just show up. It's kind of the same in that most often they will find help if they can manage to get across. Legal immigration is extremely expensive and time consuming and usually requires a lawyer, which is prohibitive for almost everyone who is in dire straits to change their lives. So it's a complex matter. We have people who want to help and we have people who want to shoot them on site and Trump and his followers who just want to build a wall and pretend there is no problem.
Like is often the case, a lot of the problems in the areas people are escaping are due to us fueling the drug trade and other issues. So we create problems and then don't want to deal with the fall out. Same as war. We create or contribute to problems that people have to run from, and then we don't want to help them when their lives fall apart. It's complex all around.
All we can work with is our own minds and lives though, no matter what the issue happens to be. It's quite possible many of the people you run across are working on learning English but don't know it enough to be confident in its use. If I were in their shoes, I might feel more comfortable speaking my native language because at least I know it, and I don't have to worry someone will verbally assault and insult me for doing it wrong. Which happens a lot here, too. Even if they try, they are mocked and ridiculed. Why bother? In any case, I'm not offering excuses, just saying I try to find other perspectives, as it softens the way I think of those I consider adversaries. it makes it easier to offer a smile rather than eye rolling out of frustration.
'Wall building' can lead to ghettos and we all know what happens when ghettos are made/built...
Let's say an Arab moves to some other country, speaks Arabic mostly, dresses like an Arab, eats Arabic food, etc. Basically, he follows his culture in the foreign country. What's the worst thing that could happen because of this? If anything, wouldn't this enrich the local cultures, adding more color and variety?
@techie part of the problem, I think, is that for people to feel enriched, they also need information, not just an experience. They have questions about customs, culture, etc and being completely unable to communicate means that exchange cannot happen in either direction. There are going to be places where these cultures overlap, and communication is necessary and when neither side can do so, it leads to frustration and tension. I don't think the problem is them following their culture/customs/language, but being unable to both understand and communicate to people of the other culture/customs/language. It leads to barriers being formed on both sides when communication is impossible.
Now that excluding cafe owners, inclusive Europeans and other monkey minded tribalists have had their morning rant, what now?
E=MC2 or perhaps Europe 2 run by people for people ( preferably Britain as that is my tribe
)?
Basically we can export our impoverished and disenfranchised to lead a preferred life style in a second European franchise.
Those who chose to stay will have to learn to speak, think and educate their children, parents and their European neighbours. The NHS can become International Health Service. Any plans?
We are British Borg
Resistence oh Europe, is Futile.
You will be assimulated
The EU are the Borg!
EU commission:
Well...You tell me. How long would this scenario be sustainable, do you think? And are you talking about one single person on his own...?
Or conversely, think of what would happen if you moved to say, Istanbul and attempted to speak English, wear Western clothes and eat the kind of food you are used to.
Try to follow your culture - on your own - and tell me what you think would happen....
Thanks @SpinyNorman
My feeling is that the EU will have to rebrand or develop into a non-starbucks type cafe of one philosophy fits all. It is the imposition on our most vulnerable that is always the result.
Here are some of the competing values the E2 (The Brit Franchise) can offer.
http://bbc.in/29fQtm8
It appears to me that immigration per se is not the problem as much as the type of people who take advantage of vague expectations and lax regulations.
I do think that a host country has the right to set certain rules like the requirement for immigrants to learn the host language, to respect freedom of speech and to respect the host county's cultural habits. (I think France and Germany have come to those conclusions.)
Those immigrants who are unwilling to adapt need to relocate someplace else, where they will fit in better. Often, I assume, it is an unwillingness to comply, not a matter of not being able to integrate. Anyone can learn a language and anyone can be expected to tolerate other cultures, esp as guest in a new country.
(As for refugees, they did not necessarily choose to live in any particular country, so different reasoning and tolerances apply, but integration would be expected just the same...)
I live in the US and I am an immigrant myself, having arrived from Europe to live in the US some 34 years ago after meeting my future husband. My biggest concern for the first 3 years was to learn the culture - language, habits, customs, jokes, lifestyles... so I could understand my new environment and fit in. I think that is how it should be. Anything less leads to alienation, a breakdown of communication and on a bigger scale a fragile community, even in the most abstract sense.
It leads to unhappiness for everyone, when the safety net of community and the sharing of common ideals gets watered down and finally destroyed. Suddenly your community is marked by holistility. This is magnified by an increase in population density (like in the UK) where you end up getting on each other's nerves constantly with no breathing room nor option of escape.
If Americans cannot grasp the problems that the Brits are describing here, then try to think of how you feel entering black areas of towns.... You are not a racist, and yet, distrust and aloofness is prevalent and communication is an uneasy effort. Resentment and otherness may never go away, much as you try to alleviate the situation. Under such circumstances there is no basis for feeling included, safe and at home, and it gets worse in a very crowded the community.
The question is, IMO, does leaving the EU really solve any of these problems? The referendum, IMO, was a stupid, ego driven idea, allowing the uninformed general public to make an enormous decision and allowing political forces with ulterior motives to feed unhappy, gullible folks bold faced lies about how things would improve....
The problems discussed here (and that linked article speaks volumes about the nature of these conflicts) would need novel solutions, independent of whether the UK is part of the EU or not. The labor market is globalised no matter where you turn, we are all in deep trouble re the global economy, the environment and big money currupting our so called democracies. These issues persist with an independent UK and with a UK attached to Europe.
As long as corporations are able to plunder the economies of poor nations, those who have been robbed the most off their abilities to make a living in their own country will seek out those places that seem to offer them hope to sustain themselves.
I have no idea how this is going to get resolved, but Brexit has taken a myopic view on the matter and the fake solution of "in/out" is just as small minded.
(The Buddhist spin on immigration: compassion yes, but not *idiot compassion".)
Very balanced post.
I think both sides of the voting public were misled and misinformed on many important matters, and focus (as you rightly state) fell squarely (I omit 'fairly and..') on the issue of mass and excessive immigration. I believe this factor alone, is probably what carried the motion.
We are bound by Law to accept all legitimate immigration of European subjects whether we like it or not. And unless an immigrant breaks the Law on British soil, and is discovered, investigated and found to be guilty, here they can stay.
(There are several high-profile stories of immigrants with severe criminal records being permitted into the UK unchecked or unimpeded. They have since gone on to continue their lives of criminal intent, with dreadful and occasionally fatal results for their victims.)
If a person from a European community wishes to enter the UK, and they have the required valid documentation, they are permitted to enter, as Law requires.
It is a supposed and accepted premise that traffic of UK citizens exiting from the UK wishing to establish themselves elsewhere, is equally legitimate and acceptable.
However, the numbers of UK citizens taking this option are far and away much, much lower.
Why?
Because the lifestyle of these reciprocating countries is not conducive to a comfortable or profitable existence.
It can be said, therefore, with little likelihood of contradiction, that traffic of migrants in the EU is largely one way.
Theoretically, that would be the ideal, and everybody's objective.
In practice, this never happens. They cannot be legitimately relocated on the premise of non-adaptation. It's not against the law.
They themselves fit in precisely as they wish. They locate communities of fellow countrymen, and integrate with them, and learn how to live in the UK by following the examples set, as they see fit.
Some - the majority, it must be said - are law-abiding, conscientious and clean-living individuals.
A small proportion, aren't.
But what they have in common, is that there is a perpetuation of a closet mind-set that states, while they can live as ~ insert specific origin here ~ and have no pressing need to do otherwise, they will prefer to do so, which results in a multi-national country (as the UK has been for centuries) attempting to house multi-cultural huddles of alien communities which, rather than creating harmony, togetherness, cooperation and understanding, do the exact opposite.
I think a lot of this talk about immigrants, crime, weird customs, fear of the unknown, etc results in and exhibits selective "compassion" (yes, those are scare quotes) based on very general ideas about very large, varying groups of people. I noticed that even the term "cultural marxism" is being thrown around here. At least here in the U.S., that word is thrown around to describe anything that falls outside the sledgehammer approach to everything that the two main parties employ, which more often than not isn't based in one iota of evidence, rather emoting and playing to emotional voter reaction. This is often done by taking anecdotal evidence ("see the horror of what this foreigner did!") and imply that it's routine. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Sorry, but human rights don't apply to just some people, because they then cease to be human rights.
From an American perspective, I can certainly tell you what _doesn'_t work for society regarding some of these things, yet I see musings about more hardline policies in Britain and some places in Europe. For sure, the U.S. is a much larger country which gives it a geographical advantage over the countries across the atlantic regarding space. It's quite huge. American politicians continue to use the same tropes.
But this is the UK! Surely, with the waves of foreign nationals, there must be dangerous criminals sliding in the cracks, roving throughout the UK!
"Whilst increases in both the number of foreign nationals entering the UK and the number of foreign nationals in UK prisons has strengthened the association between immigration and crime in the public imagination, there is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign nationals are more dangerous than British nationals."
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2311.2010.00655.x/abstract
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/2193-9039-2-19
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/REST_a_00337#.V30C3BXyuUk
Oh.
When I referred to "cultural Marxism", I was referring to in the media/police/government who cover up migrant sex crimes so as not to look racist and also people who are soft on violent criminals in general. The beliefs of the media and governments across the EU are at odds with the people and there is going to be a big shock for them when the far right gets more power.
Cover up:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that-covers-up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/
Epidemic:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7557/germany-rape-migrants-crisis
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/11/06/teenage-muslim-migrants-let-off-wrist-slap-violent-gang-rape/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/646052/Horror-migrants-film-raping-male-teen-asylum-centre-Norway
If we want to stop the rise of the far right more needs to be done to protect women and children from sex offenders no matter if they are nationals or foreign. Right wing politicians shouting "see the horror of what this foreigner did!" works for them gaining support. And it is the people who refuse to see the problems and carry on like everything is ok that are pushing people to the right.
Oh, fyi your links are three/four years old. The crisis in Europe is happening for the last one/two years.
edit:
Fallout from Cologne attacks
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/08/cologne-violence-suspects-include-asylum-seekers
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-police-ordered-to-remove-word-rape-from-reports-into-new-year-s-eve-sexual-assaults-a6972471.html
Oh, really...?
The USA's own record of adopting the Human Rights Act, is apparently highly questionable... It seems it can - and does - discriminate on many levels, whereas the UK is bound by its own commitment.
The U.S. is a prime example of exactly what I described: selective application. I never argued otherwise. As a matter of fact, the U.S. criminal justice system should be a lesson in itself for those who would like to discriminate on many levels in other countries.
But we're not discriminating. This has been said ad nauseam in this thread. There is no racism or discrimination. This is merely the desire of an existent population to stem the apparently unstoppable tide of immigration - both ;lawful and unlawful - because the number of people from other countries is getting overwhelming and to many, a frightening prospect.
While discrimination DOES exist - I would be the first to admit that - the majority of the indigenous population would simply like a say in the matter.
I'm not sure if the sources you posted were meant to show the "far right" perspective that you're describing, but if so, they are perfect specimens, complete with specific examples. Breitbart is well-known in the US, the Gatestone Institute is relatively known (John Bolton, George W Bush's UN ambassador), and the Daily Express, which is aligned with UKIP.
I'm not sure who is advocating for letting people commit crimes like rape under the banner of "cultural marxism" that you described, but that idea is a bit extreme, wouldn't you say?
Yes, the studies on migrants in the UK that I referenced are around 3-4 years old. Are there some studies you could share that reflect what you're describing, like overall trends taht contradict the studies I cited?
@Deformed. The Guardian and the Independent aren't "far right". The police are engaged in cover ups of sex crimes and criminals are not being punished. There are loads of stories online from a wide range of news sources that report what is happening.
The reason I pointed out that the studies you linked were 3-4 years old is because the majority of those immigrants would of went through the proper legal channels. The migrants that walked into Europe weren't checked out or vetted and if they commit crimes they are unlikely to be deported or receive long sentences .
Nobody is "advocating for letting people commit crimes like rape under the banner of "cultural marxism"". My point was that there seems to be many people in positions of influence who are giving light sentences or allowing criminals to be free because the line of thought is criminals are victims of their own circumstances. Which is usually associated with far-left wing thinking.
@Boru
Reflexive actions that take no attempt to understand the larger picture and trends, ignoring nuance, while picking out anecdotal events, is troubling.
I saw no mention of described coverups in your Telegraph article, but rather about rise in general violent crime (knives and alcohol mentioned) in London regarding migrants. The other two articles from the Independent and Guardian do talk about a specific coverup in Cologne, where their police chief was fired.
I also find articles about a specific case of sexual assault on a Swedish woman and leniency on perpetrators (based on the article's info alone) incredibly sad, but what I also find sad is the obviously racist display of a generic photograph of an unrelated Arab (?) male standing in public right above the article (the Breitbart article).
I accept what you are saying here @Deformed. I read and watch a lot of news from many perspectives, which probably isn't such a good idea anyway. I have built up a perception of what is happening in Europe. Of people being banned from pools in Germany and Sweden to police issuing warnings to Women not to walk in certain areas and many more negative news stories. But I know the majority of migrants are most likely good people.
If this migrant crisis had been handled better, maybe accepting people from camps in Turkey and Syria to begin with and deport people who commit heinous crimes. Instead I fear that this crisis is going to lead to more problems. Political instability with people of the same mindset of Trump gaining more power and influence across Europe. More could of been done to avoid this situation and more can be done to try and fix it such as the control of the flow of people and who gets in. That is all. I do apologize for the distasteful links. They were linked in haste.
After reading the bottom half of this page, it crosses my mind that lots of people who leave their home countries - for whatever reasons - seem to have come to a consensus that the 'big' countries that allow a lot of that - are supposed to allow it - they expect to be 'helped' or allowed in no matter what. And if anything is manipulating the whole situation, the most powerful governments would be the ones. The vote seems to be enough people saying 'enough'.
...Which brings to mind the old population control thing - If China can do it, maybe others could and should. If people won't govern themselves, something will step in and do it for them.
Ooooh, let's not bring in Chinese population control... Man, that would be inhuman... baby girls abandoned in the street and left to die of cold and starvation, and Mao Tse Tung responsible for 78 million deaths. Read that again. 78 million people died because of his direct orders.
I don't think the Chinese method of population control would be... 'acceptable'.....
I think we have common ground in this. I've found this whole thing a good opportunity for practice (I must tie this in with why we're all here in the first place!), because I think times like this call for it the most.
I do understand that these crises have a cause, as the entire region where many are coming from are fleeing places that have been destabilized through my country's intervention, and it's difficult because there are no easy answers to questions on public safety. A lot is happening quickly and there is lots of confusion.
I need to practice compassion today. For the migrants, the anti-migrants, for victims of crime and the criminals.
No worries on the links, but thank you.
Eventually disease, famine, war will catch up with out of control population numbers. Malthus was not wrong, growth cannot continue forever.
But it is a question what will prove less pleasant in the end - that outcome, and the biosphere destruction we will have along the way, or planned population control of one sort or another.
@Deformed I was just thinking about the geographical thing, too. In the US, it is very common for people of all types of ethnicity, ancestry, cultures, to group together and live their culture in the midst of US culture. This happens a lot in MN. While the state as a whole isn't widely known for it's diversity, we have quite a large immigrant population, many Hmong, Somalis, Tibetans, and others. But you will always find them in pockets. I think that is pretty common in most of the US even in the most diverse and large cities. I imagine some of the problem in the UK and elsewhere in Europe is that there just isn't the space to allow this anymore. There are too many people living close together to allow space for pockets of other cultures where they aren't directly clashing.
I'm on the fence about whether this is good or not. Here, they seem to integrate fairly well while keeping their neighborhoods. It's certainly not uncommon for people to do this. I live in a part of the state that was settled by almost entirely Finnish and Scandinavian people. Though we have some retirees and transplants, the area is still largely generations of the families who settled her 150 years ago. There are pros and cons to it. The sense of community is much greater. Because our families relied on each other, that sense of reliance is still there, and it's nice. You're never just alone and on your own. Someone is always there to help. That is lacking in a lot of cities and urban areas, but I bet it is a lot of the reason different cultures continue to segregate. They can rely on each other and trust each other based on many shared factors from beliefs to food to holidays.
But, we have decent resources here, too. People are assigned individual volunteer or case workers and they basically have someone to hold their hand in every aspect of integrating and becoming a "useful" member of the society they find themselves in. They are required to get jobs which pretty much requires them to learn the language. Usually classes taught by volunteers are part of it. But that is a benefit of being able to pick and choose who we allow in, and where they go, usually they are settled purposely with other family members or people from their country.
I imagine that is all impossible to do with the situation in Europe. Not only are there way too many people coming in to have those resources and the people to manage everyone, but there just is not enough space, either.
Ups, I didn't think too deeply about that - was thinking in terms of either women being put on birth control and men being given vasectomies. It was never a neat and clean sort of law. Sorry, didn't think that one through, BUT what needs to be done needs to be done and if it isn't, then that seems more suffering for us all.
One thing is 100% certain: Whatever is - or is NOT done - someone will end up suffering.
True. Why do you think the powers that be in either gov or religion seem to have become like Siamese twins? sorry but esp catholic - more babies more inexperienced provide more cannon fodder and slaves. If a cap was put on the world's population everyone would have a lot better chance at education and wisdom - less likely for the gp to be taken advantage of.
It seems like the EU, for better or worse, is attempting to turn nations into states. If I imagined the US where each state was its own sovereign nation that had its own language in addition to cultural differences, I don't imagine that most states would be all that happy to give up the ability to control who lives and works there. States rights vs national rights is still a hotly debated field and we were founded as a united republic. I'm on team brexit for wanting self-determination. I'm off the team for the xenophobia, its something we've seen in the US forever and have seen through its hyperbole.