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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
If it's done in the right way - please answer one of these questions to tell us more about your story when you reach 25 posts, 50 posts, 75 posts for instance - then it may work. You would of course choose the questions so that they speak to motivation and one's inner life, not personally identifiable details.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
It should also be the option, not the obligation. Contribution should be entirely voluntary.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Kerome said: ...You would of course choose the questions so that they speak to motivation and one's inner life, not personally identifiable details.
Really though... what business is that, of anyone else's? And people change... some things written 'today' may be trite and meaningless a few months later.
Besides, I think you can tell an awful lot about people by how they socially interact on forum. We've had a thread recently that said more about the OP than I think he even knew it would....How people treat others in public is more revealing than an account of their aspirations, dreams, goals and desires....
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
I could be wrong I suppose you'd have to brainstorm a list of prospective features intended to make a forum female-friendly, and do some focus group testing
Heh. Kinda reminds me of back when people kept telling me I had a great marriage and asking me the secret. Not knowing what to say, I usually told them something funny like ask my wife because I wasn't allowed to have secrets anymore. I always figured I was just plain lucky to stumble across this little oasis of sanity and I like what the people here have to say. I never stopped to analyse it.
I don't understand why someone would feel the need to start a thread about sex. Sex is cool, but I don't see how it has anything to do with mindfulness or The Path... ? But yeah, as someone mentioned, it's really uncomfortable when men bring up sex, especially when you don't know them very well -- or at all.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2016
Well, It's difficult to understand from my perspective, because I, like you, don't feel it has any bearing on Mindful practice. Providing we observe the 3rd Precept skilfully, there is no reason to be in any way concerned about one's own sex life.
But I can vouch for the fact that the menfolk who begin such threads, are concerned with the amount of time they think about sex, the number of times they masturbate and their (in their minds) excessive reliance on porn, either on the internet, or through magazines...
It also has a bearing on the type of background they had before coming to Buddhism. Without steering the topic onto a new and different tangent, Christianity and its influence has a lot to answer for.
@federica said:
Well, It's difficult to understand from my perspective, because I, like you, don't feel it has any bearing on Mindful practice. Providing we observe the 3rd Precept skilfully, there is no reason to be in any way concerned about one's own sex life.
But I can vouch for the fact that the menfolk who begin such threads, are concerned with the amount of time they think about sex, the number of times they masturbate and their (in their minds) excessive reliance on porn, either on the internet, or through magazines...
It also has a bearing on the type of background they had before coming to Buddhism. Without steering the topic onto a new and different tangent, Christianity and its influence has a lot to answer for.
I don't think it is easy for women to understand just how powerful the male sex drive is. A lot of it is down to being biologically evolved to find as many partners as possible to ensure genetic survival, whereas women only need to select one partner for passing on her genes. A lot of men, even the quiet ones, can become consumed by lust. Involuntary suppression of men's sex drives can sometimes lead to disastrous consequences like suicide or depression.
In my opinion it's these reasons that porn addiction is a big problem for young men. The guys starting these thread’s are probably concerned of the hold their addiction has over them, much the same as someone who drinks too much.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
I think it's real easy to mistake that kind of problem (a real problem) for an attitude problem. Sure, sometimes it's a little of column A & B, but it is a serious issue, not to be made light of, like at all.
@federica said:
Besides, I think you can tell an awful lot about people by how they socially interact on forum. We've had a thread recently that said more about the OP than I think he even knew it would....How people treat others in public is more revealing than an account of their aspirations, dreams, goals and desires....
Exactly.
As far as I am aware 'transmission' or communication of the potential for awakening is dependent on conveying respect, empowerment, support, ice cream recipes and other qualities and behaviours through being or embodying ...
Winning an argument, arguing over who has the best meditation cushion and other childish monkey gibbering [lobster hangs head in shame] is not right speech. As we are in the environment of conveying with words, our communication ideally must illuminate, unfold and release shackles. At the very least words must not harm, except as a temporary imagined hurt but ultimately as a skilful healing bitter medicine ...
If we are skilful, we may employ challenges, conundrums and our best unopened sardine can ... It takes discernment to hear what is useful, to speak what is required and to digest what is needed. Gosh I may almost make sense ...
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I completely disagree. No forum would request that. It's a question of Privacy, discretion and data protection. There are some who post on forums who require, if not insist, on anonymity...Some people would hate to be found. And what right does a forum administrator have to encourage anyone to be more open?
No, that may seem a good idea on paper, but in practise, such encouragement would probably actually discourage membership....
I have to say I completely agree 100% with @federica on this. there can be some people, of either gender, who use their anonymity online to explore their beliefs without fear of being "caught out" by parents, partners, friends, coworkers etc who would make their lives difficult.
I don't think it is easy for women to understand just how powerful the male sex drive is. A lot of it is down to being biologically evolved to find as many partners as possible to ensure genetic survival, whereas women only need to select one partner for passing on her genes. A lot of men, even the quiet ones, can become consumed by lust. Involuntary suppression of men's sex drives can sometimes lead to disastrous consequences like suicide or depression.
Ooooh that's walking a VERY thin line there. And to be totally blunt, sounds a bit "rapey" at times. That's almost borderline explaining away inappropriate behaviour ("sorry he can't help it, he's got a strong sex drive") I'm fully aware that it is probably something unintended and it probably never even occurred to you - which can also be an issue from a societal POV but that's for another thread.
In my opinion it's these reasons that porn addiction is a big problem for young men. The guys starting these thread’s are probably concerned of the hold their addiction has over them, much the same as someone who drinks too much.
Um, no. A strong sex drive and involuntary suppression of it are NOT the reasons for porn addiction. Not those alone anyway. Again, societal views are a strong influence on ALL young people and I would suggest sexualisation of female teenagers and young women in marketing and advertising, movies and tv are more of an influence on acceptance of porn as mainstream than suppressing a strong sex drive. When was the last time you saw a show that had full frontal nudity of a man? It's extremely rare, but women are shown fully nude on a regular basis for example. Why does a scantily clad woman need to be draped across a car at a car show is another one.
I'm just saying, these blanket statements are also an example of why you may find less participation on a forum when sex is brought up. And I have to echo sentiments of a few people when I say that I too find if we actually practise what we preach, like the 4th Precept, it shouldn't even be a topic, unless it's in regard to the 3rd Precept.
@federica said:
Well, It's difficult to understand from my perspective, because I, like you, don't feel it has any bearing on Mindful practice. Providing we observe the 3rd Precept skilfully, there is no reason to be in any way concerned about one's own sex life.
But I can vouch for the fact that the menfolk who begin such threads, are concerned with the amount of time they think about sex, the number of times they masturbate and their (in their minds) excessive reliance on porn, either on the internet, or through magazines...
It also has a bearing on the type of background they had before coming to Buddhism. Without steering the topic onto a new and different tangent, Christianity and its influence has a lot to answer for.
I don't think it is easy for women to understand just how powerful the male sex drive is. A lot of it is down to being biologically evolved to find as many partners as possible to ensure genetic survival, whereas women only need to select one partner for passing on her genes. A lot of men, even the quiet ones, can become consumed by lust. Involuntary suppression of men's sex drives can sometimes lead to disastrous consequences like suicide or depression.
Er, no, it's not stronger. It's that kind of thinking that leads young women to think they're broken for feeling sexual desire -- the media tells us over and over that women have a lower sex drive than men and that is sooooo laughably untrue. Maybe you should read some deconstructionist feminist literature. I like this abstract on Judith Butler's Gender Trouble:
In presenting the notion of gender as performance or gender performativity in her "Gender Trouble", Judith Butler holds that forced which operate on the subject create the illusion of heterosexual integrity, that is, the myth according to which someone who is born with certain genitals (e.g., a penis) forms a certain gender identity (e.g., a man) as has sexual desire which is directed towards the opposite sex (women).** For Butler this perception assumes that there is congruence between sex (male/female), gender identity (man/women) and the object of sexual desire. Butler asks if this congruence is indeed natural, is it really stable and consistent?. Judith Butler claims that this is a fantasy which disguises itself as a law of natural development, but is in fact a regulating ideal which coerces gender identity upon subjects**.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
edited August 2016
@dhammachick said: Ooooh that's walking a VERY thin line there. And to be totally blunt, sounds a bit "rapey" at times. That's almost borderline explaining away inappropriate behaviour ("sorry he can't help it, he's got a strong sex drive") I'm fully aware that it is probably something unintended and it probably never even occurred to you..."
Fwiw, I didn't get that type of slant from @Boru's post, at all. It's miraculous enough to draw the high-functioning, intellectual, well-rounded type men to this forum, but for men in general to walk on eggshells a lot of the time because of women's oversensitivity about this topic, is asking too much. I think we have to guard against overreacting to things said. As Buddhists (casual or otherwise), we owe it to each other.
@silver No... men need to stop thinking women are emotional and "oversensitive". My brother is a feminist and he would never talk over a woman like you just did to dhammachick. She thinks it's rapey, I think it's rapey. Dude, it's rapey. There is no debate here.
ETA: Men should never contradict women's feelings or contradict them on subjects relating to gender. Ever.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
edited August 2016
Well, @IchLiebte - I was only speaking about this 'narrow' topic - I wasn't saying in general that men view women are emotional and oversensitive -(I was saying WHEN they happen to be over-emotional and oversensitive)... I'm not so sure you get what I was getting at. I don't see how we - as Buddhist aspirants - can find THE middle ground when speaking in polar opposites (never/always/ever).
In my experience, women have just as high a sex drive as men but this is neither constant nor set in stone for either sex at any particular time.
A few more for the mix:
Men's bits are accessible and relatively low maintenance - two basic functions both of which are pleasurable - maybe this helps drive a lack of awareness combined with an obsession and maybe even serves to narrow the topics of conversation.
Generally, women I think may be more comfortable with discussing sex related topics with their friends and between parent and child, there may be more guidance available for women.
Men often don't have the same approach with their friends or ready access to routes of serious discussion or ways to seek reassurance and guidance - perhaps the internet provides a way.
I have a fairly high sex drive, but it is not random. I never had a desire to hook up with random people. My high sex drive is driven by emotional connection with my partner, and it does not develop until I have immense trust and strong feelings for my partner. Not that there aren't women who are different, of course. But that is pretty typical among most women I know. Most women want a degree of trust present, while for men this does not seem to usually be a factor. They don't need to trust the woman. On the flip side, they often spend a lot of time earning a woman's trust because they know they will need it.
@Boru I'm sure most of us women can't relate to the male sex drive. But the exact things you point out are the exact things that can frighten us. I live in a very safe area. very rural. Most people here have connections to each other. We are very community oriented and we all know our neighbors. Most people don't lock their doors. But last summer I was running on a gravel road, and came across 3 young college aged men walking my way. I evaluated quickly if I wanted to go through them (it was an atv trail, so only wide enough for the 3 of them and they were not moving as I approached) or not. I turned around. Not only did I turn around, but I took a side trail and took a private driveway with houses along it to get out of their view.
We might not understand the male sex drive. But men likewise do not understand the realities of living like this. And the idea that we are simply supposed to expect that men have a strong sex drive to the point they cannot be expected to control it is exactly that idea that makes us have to turn around when we are out for a run. I don't think anyone should repress their sexuality. But there is a time and a place, and there are the proper people to express it with. "You don't understand my high sex drive and if you ask me to tone it down I might get suicidal" is unacceptable. Control is not the same as repressing.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
Hey @Karasti. You said, ""You don't understand my high sex drive and if you ask me to tone it down I might get suicidal" is unacceptable," and I think that's a strong misrepresentation of what @Boru meant by his post. I believe I read and understood what you both were trying to say. This is what he said, "I don't think it is easy for women to understand just how powerful the male sex drive is. ... A lot of men, even the quiet ones, can become consumed by lust. Involuntary suppression of men's sex drives can sometimes lead to disastrous consequences like suicide or depression.
In my opinion it's these reasons that porn addiction is a big problem for young men. The guys starting these thread’s are probably concerned of the hold their addiction has over them, much the same as someone who drinks too much."
So, what I take as the gist of what he's saying here in sum, is that it's a serious issue that he hopes men can find an appropriate and safe forum in which to discuss it.
Yes, indeed. I'm not saying those with addictions or similar problems whether it's in regards to sex directly or porn or other things shouldn't have a voice. But I also hear the same things said in excuse for using women. It is a very common reason given for adultery and even for rape.
I've participated in many of those threads, and I try to keep an open mind. But I'd be lying if I didn't say the comments made by posters and men who comment aren't scary when it comes to addressing the overall issue of how women are treated in regards to sex and boundaries and their bodies, and the whole mess. The number of men who agree with statements made here before, such as men who have commented they might leave their partner because their sexual needs -those comments are concerning. Because they make it sound like all the other qualities we have to offer isn't enough, that they'll overlook other flaws in favor of a good sex life, but if the good sex life falls away, no amount of amazing qualities is enough to save the relationship. We are consistently reduced to the ability to please a man in bed and if that isn't happening anymore, than the 'strong sex drive' is a qualifying factor in ending the relationship, even if the poor woman has a medical problem.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
Yes, the men who do use it as an excuse is clearly a valid concern. I think it takes it one step beyond - perhaps - the general nature of the issues presented by the OP. I suppose a different thread might be in order. These modern secular concerns are important to bringing Buddhism into the present - same old problems - maybe they can be looked at in a better light somehow.
Fwiw, I didn't get that type of slant from @Boru's post, at all. It's miraculous enough to draw the high-functioning, intellectual, well-rounded type men to this forum, but for men in general to walk on eggshells a lot of the time because of women's oversensitivity about this topic, is asking too much. I think we have to guard against overreacting to things said. As Buddhists (casual or otherwise), we owe it to each other.
Thank you for making my point for me.
I might add you conveniently left out the part where I said to Boru: __I'm fully aware that is something probably unintended__ - you know, giving Boru the benefit of the doubt whilst giving my opinion.......
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
Your welcome - although I'm either too tired or too duh to know what that point was, heh..
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
Fwiw, I didn't get that type of slant from @Boru's post, at all. It's miraculous enough to draw the high-functioning, intellectual, well-rounded type men to this forum, but for men in general to walk on eggshells a lot of the time because of women's oversensitivity about this topic, is asking too much. I think we have to guard against overreacting to things said. As Buddhists (casual or otherwise), we owe it to each other.
Thank you for making my point for me.
I might add you conveniently left out the part where I said to Boru: __I'm fully aware that is something probably unintended__ - you know, giving Boru the benefit of the doubt whilst giving my opinion.......
I tried to whittle the quote down and at the time didn't think it was important to what I was trying to explain. Once upon a time, I used to think it was all that to make points in arguments in forums, but not any more. (I had no idea what that unintended part might be.)
Oh yeah, @silver , I spoke in absolutes. I hate when I do that. On the other hand, one should never kill. That's an absolute.
I just got worked up about the walking on eggshells comment -- I think being sensitive comes before worrying about being put out to make a group of people comfortable.
It comes down to that throughout the course of history, men have lead the conversation about sex and gender and I don't really think it's appropriate anymore.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
Well, if you mean that men led conversations about sex etc. but amongst themselves. Y'know the old men only clubs/groups. I think we have to stop pretending that we know everything about the past and all the different paths that men/women have taken. See? You even take what I said and turn it to extremes. I don't feel I said anything to the effect of females making males more comfy. Why ask men to take our feelings into consideration if we don't return the favor when it's appropriate, huh?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2016
The comments made by @Boru being discussed or criticised as being unconsciously insensitive are similar to those I detailed in a post a short while back, regarding commentators in the current Olympic games. (see links at bottom of post).
The big problem seems to be (in a nutshell) that over the millennia, both men and women have become so used, and inured to sexism in everyday situations, that once shortcomings are highlighted the response is either that people are being overly touchy and taking offence at nothing, or that finally, people are waking up to just how insidious and insensitive such discussion is. @silver saw nothing wrong with what @Boru said. @dhammachick on the other hand, felt a nerve scratched.
Poor Boru, I'm sure, had no intention whatsoever of conveying condescension, or making allowances for creepy sex stalkers... but it's just a further indication of how we have been programmed over thousands of years, to take this kind of male "sexual supremacy" as a given, and that 'boys will be boys' when it comes to sexual drive and gratification.
In a nutshell, it's "I'm a sexual animal, I can't help it."
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Really interesting discussion, to see women airing their views on this so frankly and comfortably is not something you come across every day. It's been educational
I don't think you can get away from it being a genuine problem for many young men. The Internet bringing porn to the forefront of sex education for young males has been a problem, it has probably stimulated rape culture and fetishism, which seem to have become more mainstream in the media, but it has also been a boon, in exposing just how poor the control and maturity of many men is when dealing with their sex drive.
In my opinion it is sex education that is at fault here. It is just bad practice to leave young men uneducated and unaccompanied when they are starting to encounter the most powerful biological drive they know, with porn as the major source of examples of sexual practice which opens up the door for porn addiction. This is not the way to develop a healthy relationship to a powerful sex drive.
Tackling this problem would hopefully also at least partially solve the problem for women. But it is structurally deeply embedded in Western culture, very little time is given to it in families, and even less on a community level. Back in the Stone Age this would be dealt with on the tribal level, and a young guy of sixteen or eighteen would be considered a man, a hunter with those in their twenties and thirties as his peers, but nowadays we just let our youngsters muddle along together.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2016
Some good points there @Kerome... Similarly, a lot of attention is given to the female menopause, and now research suggests men go through a similar phase. However, that's the stage at the senior end of life. Scant attention is paid to the time when kids (who arguably are at a critical educational stage and need to focus on studying and getting good scholastic results!) are going through the opposite transition: Everything is waking up and raging; yet it's all put down to typical teenage behaviour and lack of direction from their parents.
I feel similar allowances should be made, and people should be more understanding.
I have often felt I would have benefited from education had it come later in life - I was more mature and able to concentrate and focus, in a slightly older period, that I was in my biological developmental stage. I could have done with a better framework of personal support then!
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
Wow. Whatever happened to sex as a means for reproduction and expressing love?
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@David said:
Wow. Whatever happened to sex as a means for reproduction and expressing love?
Human sexual mores and traditions have kind of a mixed heritage in that area. I don't know any men who start a sexual relationship with the purpose of reproducing... And love and mere sexual attraction are so often confused in popular culture that I'm sure that many young men don't even know what love is anymore, unless they are lucky enough to have sprung from a couple whose own emotional bond has stood the test of time.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
@David said:
Wow. Whatever happened to sex as a means for reproduction and expressing love?
Human sexual mores and traditions have kind of a mixed heritage in that area. I don't know any men who start a sexual relationship with the purpose of reproducing... And love and mere sexual attraction are so often confused in popular culture that I'm sure that many young men don't even know what love is anymore, unless they are lucky enough to have sprung from a couple whose own emotional bond has stood the test of time.
I was the only one I knew of as well and I found it as strange then as I do now. I did go through lustful stages but would always sabotage my own efforts by sticking to my morals and ruining the mood by talking about feelings and how sex means more than a buzz.
It just makes me shake my head when I see the little tell tale signs of a repressed populace with misplaced priorities. God forbid little Jimmy sees a boob on tv but hey if Daffy is getting his head shot off by Buggs then pass the popcorn and isn't that cute?
I was a virgin til 23 and at times I felt shame for it. Mostly though I just wasn't attracted unless I figured she would be a good mom.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited August 2016
@David said:
God forbid little Jimmy sees a boob on tv but hey if Daffy is getting his head shot off by Buggs then pass the popcorn and isn't that cute?
Lol, I live near the beach in the Netherlands and here it's not that unusual for women to sunbathe topless. There's a nudist beach at the other end of the boulevard. It's in some ways a much less repressed society and women seem to be more open for it, although it's far from perfect and needs more work in some areas. There's about 40% women in our parliament.
Some fascinating posts. I think for the OT, one problem that has to be addressed in a mixed forum or any Sangha is that Buddhism traditionally doesn't address gender roles or equal rights for women, and the only thing about sex is, "If you're a monk, don't do it. For the rest of you, here's a Precept. Good luck."
. The tendency to check the Suttas for guidelines only makes it worse, because some of those old monks who put words in Buddha's mouth didn't have a very enlightened attitude about women at all. I guess if you have a legalistic Buddhist who thinks Buddhism should only be about what the sacred scriptures tell you it is, that can create a problem. I don't remember, but we probably struggled with it in the past here too, going by the posts above.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@Cinorjer said:
Buddhism traditionally doesn't address gender roles or equal rights for women
However, it does in places give the quote that "Buddhism would have lasted a thousand years if they hadn't admitted women, and only 500 years with". That and the many extra rules for bikkhunis does make me wonder - if you were viewing the genders as equal, wouldn't you have some rules that were meant for males, and some for females, rather than just saying, here is a ton of extra rules for females?
I don't remember, but we probably struggled with it in the past here too, going by the posts above.
So perhaps female-friendly communities are grown over time? Let's hope that is not too discouraging for the OP.
I am not all that familiar with the OPs forum, just what I read in the link he provided. But I do remember him saying in that thread that it was obvious to him based on profile picture (and maybe other information, I can't recall) who was female and who was male. When I think about this place, and a few other places that have successfully allowed male/female open discussion, most of them have had that anonymity in place. Perhaps that helps, where people can let their gender be know when they are ready, but nothing gives it away ahead of time. You can get your feet wet and be judged more on your words than anything else. We've even had a couple of people suggest here that we have to put our gender in our header info because they find it hard not to know how to read the words when they can't assign a gender to them. But perhaps that is exactly what makes so many discussions as open as they are here. Or contributes to it. Rather than having to dig in heels and fight that gender perception from the start. Or maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet!
@Kerome I think education is a big part of it that is lacking. We offer sex ed in many states here, in schools, but it is biological information and has nothing to do with managing relationships or anything else. It is a topic I have discussed with my kids from the time they were babies (my oldest is almost 20 now) and because we kept it open when they asked basic questions as little kids, their heavier questions are easier to answer now. Nothing is off the table in our house, and our discussions about sex have been extensive, including discussing rape from both points of view. I've had discussions about porn with my 2 older kids. I want them to be as aware as they can about all that sex entails and how they are expected to consider women in their lives. And how porn and movies completely skew the realities of sex. And many other things. It's not always a comfortable topic, but we do pretty well and I answer fully honestly. And my husband as well. But I chose to do so because I knew nothing about it going into puberty and my first relationships. I knew nothing about what to actually expect because sex ed was useless and I had no idea what was going on with my body. I didn't want my kids to be in that boat. They also hear all about periods and tampons and how all that works, too, to take the mystery out of it and to be supportive of their friends and girlfriends by at least being informed of what happens to them every month and why. I cannot control their choices but at least they come to me with their questions. I have no doubt they go to the internet and friends, too, lol. But they do ask me quite a few questions, and for that I am grateful for their willingness to do so.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2016
@Cinorjer said:Buddhism traditionally doesn't address gender roles or equal rights for women
Actually according to some scripture it does (see further links below).
Tara, the First Feminist
The story tells us that Tara was a princess named Wisdom Moon, who was very devoted to the dharma and had a deep meditation practice. She was close to enlightenment, raising the intention to reach enlightenment for the benefit of all beings, when a monk approached her and said what a pity it was that she was in the body of a woman, because she would have to come back as a man before she could become enlightened. The princess answered back brilliantly, demonstrating her understanding of emptiness and absolute truth, saying, “Here there is no man; there is no woman, no self, no person, and no consciousness. Labeling ‘male’ or ‘female’ is hollow. Oh, how worldly fools delude themselves” (Taranatha, Origin of the Tara Tantra).
She went on to make the following vow: “Those who wish to attain supreme enlightenment in a man’s body are many, but those who wish to serve the aims of beings in a woman’s body are few indeed; therefore may I, until this world is emptied out, work for the benefit of sentient beings in a woman’s body.”
@Kerome said: However, it does in places give the quote that "Buddhism would have lasted a thousand years if they hadn't admitted women, and only 500 years with". That and the many extra rules for bikkhunis does make me wonder - if you were viewing the genders as equal, wouldn't you have some rules that were meant for males, and some for females, rather than just saying, here is a ton of extra rules for females?
First of all, in some quarters this passage is interpreted as a reflection of how easily distracted men are, not that women are detrimental to the Dhamma. It is apparently (according to some) illustrative of how easily men are led by their sexual drives, passions and lust. It is the men who will bring the Dhamma to a speedier end. Not the women.
Judging by discussion on this forum, with regard to how some young men are driven by their sexual urges, it's not difficult to accept this interpretation as a possible....
With regard to the number or rules, initially, bikkhunis certainly had more regulations, but these were more numerous in order to protect them from unwanted male attention.
It is thought that so many more additional rules were subsequently added to discourage women from ordaining.
@Kerome said: So perhaps female-friendly communities are grown over time? Let's hope that is not too discouraging for the OP.
Yes, it took time here, too, to establish not only a prominent female profile, but over time, the membership has 'settled down' and there is a good group of regular participants all of whom certainly help to keep the checks and balances, I would say.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
edited August 2016
You're attributing @Cinorjer's words to me, i'll just mention for correctness. Honestly I don't know if there are supernatural, non-historically-patriarchal reasons for Buddhas to be portrayed as mostly male, it's certainly an interesting question. I like Tara a lot, though from a more cynical point of view it whiffs slightly of tokenism. There is probably enough material in that for another 100-post thread
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
I never expected that I would have to clarify after making my previous comment that I do not condone rape or sexual harassment in any way and that it was not my intention to give that impression. I won't be making any more comments on that topic or this thread.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Nobody's blaming you @Boru. No clarification needed.... We get it.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
...And this is what I mean by women who overreact and how it affects the 'good' men.^
This attitude won't help anyone.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
It takes two things, @Silver: A speaker and a hearer.
Neither may be intentionally offensive, and certainly, @Boru had absolutely no intention of causing offence or being deliberately thoughtless.
But if some women take offence, it is not for you to insist they shouldn't be. They gave reason. And there was nothing wrong with that reason, you simply took it differently.
Everybody's contribution is as a result of their conditioning and experience.
Boru is not to blame for thinking the way he did, nor expressing himself the way he did.
He did so in all innocence and with every positive intention.
But rather than suddenly take offence and cry off further contribution, perhaps taking a step back and observing, absorbing and trying to understand different views, will broaden the mind and deepen the understanding.
It's a little like once calling someone a spastic, or a mongol.
Once upon a time, socially, they were completely acceptable and unquestioned.
Then someone, somewhere, began to outline why such terminology was dismissive and disrespectful.
The majority of people had never considered it that way, nor had they intended any condescension or insult.
But now, people are referred to as physically disabled, or they have Down Syndrome.
Because it's more correct and socially acceptable.
Please understand: Women did NOT 'over-react'. They resisted.
They resisted the archetypal description of an aspect of masculinity which hitherto has been considered the acceptable norm. And they expanded with a justification of that.
Simply because you do not think or see things as they do, does not make them wrong.
And 'Good men' are two a penny on here. We got more good men than many forums. More than you could shake a stick at.
But even 'Good men' don't always have the perfect mind-set.
We are all here to learn, and to exchange views.
Not point divisive fingers of blame.
Because in this instance, there is no 'blame'.
Just experience.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
I generally agree, @Federica. It's just that you saying no divisive fingers of blame, but ... hmm. How to put it. In so many words, you say accurately: no blame/no one to blame and yet...there it is. I just don't think we can roll up all our opinions in one cigarette and call it a good smoke. PEOPLE overreact sometimes. Even women, heheh.
. The tendency to check the Suttas for guidelines only makes it worse, because some of those old monks who put words in Buddha's mouth
Which reminded me of this
"A young monk arrives at the monastery. He is assigned by the abbot to helping the other monks in copying the old sacred text by hand.
He notices, however, that all of the monks are copying from copies, not from the original manuscript. So, the new monk goes to the abbot to question this, pointing out that if someone made even a small error in the first copy, it would never be picked up! In fact, that error would be continued in all of the subsequent copies.
The Abbot, says, "We have been copying from the copies for over a thousand years, but you make a good point, my son."
He goes down into the dark caves underneath the monastery
where the original texts are held as archives in a locked
vault that hasn't been opened for hundreds of years. Hours go
by and nobody sees the old abbot.
So, the young monk gets worried and goes down to look for him. He sees him banging his head against the wall and wailing,
"We missed the "R" ! , we missed the "R" !"
His forehead is all bloody and bruised and he is crying
uncontrollably. The young monk asks the old abbot, "What's wrong, master?"
With A choking voice, the old abbot replies, "The word was,
CELEBRATE!!!""
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2016
@silver said:
I generally agree, @Federica. It's just that you saying no divisive fingers of blame, but ... hmm. How to put it. In so many words, you say accurately: no blame/no one to blame and yet...there it is. I just don't think we can roll up all our opinions in one cigarette and call it a good smoke. PEOPLE overreact sometimes. Even women, heheh.
I didn't say that people - even women - don't over-react. I just don't think their opinions here can be dismissed as mere over-reaction.
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
We do often speak in very broad terms (pardon that potential pun), so, I just want to say that I wasn't dismissing it, just a warning of sorts. It's too easy to see just how touchy a subject sex is. I want to suggest that people take up an appropriate form of self defense for one. Staying on an even keel in all ways as much as possible - physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually is of the utmost importance in Life.
Comments
If it's done in the right way - please answer one of these questions to tell us more about your story when you reach 25 posts, 50 posts, 75 posts for instance - then it may work. You would of course choose the questions so that they speak to motivation and one's inner life, not personally identifiable details.
It should also be the option, not the obligation. Contribution should be entirely voluntary.
Really though... what business is that, of anyone else's? And people change... some things written 'today' may be trite and meaningless a few months later.
Besides, I think you can tell an awful lot about people by how they socially interact on forum. We've had a thread recently that said more about the OP than I think he even knew it would....How people treat others in public is more revealing than an account of their aspirations, dreams, goals and desires....
I could be wrong
I suppose you'd have to brainstorm a list of prospective features intended to make a forum female-friendly, and do some focus group testing
Heh. Kinda reminds me of back when people kept telling me I had a great marriage and asking me the secret. Not knowing what to say, I usually told them something funny like ask my wife because I wasn't allowed to have secrets anymore. I always figured I was just plain lucky to stumble across this little oasis of sanity and I like what the people here have to say. I never stopped to analyse it.
I don't understand why someone would feel the need to start a thread about sex. Sex is cool, but I don't see how it has anything to do with mindfulness or The Path... ? But yeah, as someone mentioned, it's really uncomfortable when men bring up sex, especially when you don't know them very well -- or at all.
Well, It's difficult to understand from my perspective, because I, like you, don't feel it has any bearing on Mindful practice. Providing we observe the 3rd Precept skilfully, there is no reason to be in any way concerned about one's own sex life.
But I can vouch for the fact that the menfolk who begin such threads, are concerned with the amount of time they think about sex, the number of times they masturbate and their (in their minds) excessive reliance on porn, either on the internet, or through magazines...
It also has a bearing on the type of background they had before coming to Buddhism. Without steering the topic onto a new and different tangent, Christianity and its influence has a lot to answer for.
I don't think it is easy for women to understand just how powerful the male sex drive is. A lot of it is down to being biologically evolved to find as many partners as possible to ensure genetic survival, whereas women only need to select one partner for passing on her genes. A lot of men, even the quiet ones, can become consumed by lust. Involuntary suppression of men's sex drives can sometimes lead to disastrous consequences like suicide or depression.
In my opinion it's these reasons that porn addiction is a big problem for young men. The guys starting these thread’s are probably concerned of the hold their addiction has over them, much the same as someone who drinks too much.
I think it's real easy to mistake that kind of problem (a real problem) for an attitude problem. Sure, sometimes it's a little of column A & B, but it is a serious issue, not to be made light of, like at all.
Exactly.
and other qualities and behaviours through being or embodying ...
As far as I am aware 'transmission' or communication of the potential for awakening is dependent on conveying respect, empowerment, support, ice cream recipes
Winning an argument, arguing over who has the best meditation cushion and other childish monkey gibbering [lobster hangs head in shame] is not right speech. As we are in the environment of conveying with words, our communication ideally must illuminate, unfold and release shackles. At the very least words must not harm, except as a temporary imagined hurt but ultimately as a skilful healing bitter medicine ...
If we are skilful, we may employ challenges, conundrums and our best unopened sardine can ... It takes discernment to hear what is useful, to speak what is required and to digest what is needed. Gosh I may almost make sense ...
....For once.
Ok let me get settled...........
I have to say I completely agree 100% with @federica on this. there can be some people, of either gender, who use their anonymity online to explore their beliefs without fear of being "caught out" by parents, partners, friends, coworkers etc who would make their lives difficult.
Ooooh that's walking a VERY thin line there. And to be totally blunt, sounds a bit "rapey" at times. That's almost borderline explaining away inappropriate behaviour ("sorry he can't help it, he's got a strong sex drive") I'm fully aware that it is probably something unintended and it probably never even occurred to you - which can also be an issue from a societal POV but that's for another thread.
Um, no. A strong sex drive and involuntary suppression of it are NOT the reasons for porn addiction. Not those alone anyway. Again, societal views are a strong influence on ALL young people and I would suggest sexualisation of female teenagers and young women in marketing and advertising, movies and tv are more of an influence on acceptance of porn as mainstream than suppressing a strong sex drive. When was the last time you saw a show that had full frontal nudity of a man? It's extremely rare, but women are shown fully nude on a regular basis for example. Why does a scantily clad woman need to be draped across a car at a car show is another one.
I'm just saying, these blanket statements are also an example of why you may find less participation on a forum when sex is brought up. And I have to echo sentiments of a few people when I say that I too find if we actually practise what we preach, like the 4th Precept, it shouldn't even be a topic, unless it's in regard to the 3rd Precept.
Just my view,
_ /\ _
Er, no, it's not stronger. It's that kind of thinking that leads young women to think they're broken for feeling sexual desire -- the media tells us over and over that women have a lower sex drive than men and that is sooooo laughably untrue. Maybe you should read some deconstructionist feminist literature. I like this abstract on Judith Butler's Gender Trouble:
Fwiw, I didn't get that type of slant from @Boru's post, at all. It's miraculous enough to draw the high-functioning, intellectual, well-rounded type men to this forum, but for men in general to walk on eggshells a lot of the time because of women's oversensitivity about this topic, is asking too much. I think we have to guard against overreacting to things said. As Buddhists (casual or otherwise), we owe it to each other.
@silver No... men need to stop thinking women are emotional and "oversensitive". My brother is a feminist and he would never talk over a woman like you just did to dhammachick. She thinks it's rapey, I think it's rapey. Dude, it's rapey. There is no debate here.
ETA: Men should never contradict women's feelings or contradict them on subjects relating to gender. Ever.
Well, @IchLiebte - I was only speaking about this 'narrow' topic - I wasn't saying in general that men view women are emotional and oversensitive -(I was saying WHEN they happen to be over-emotional and oversensitive)... I'm not so sure you get what I was getting at. I don't see how we - as Buddhist aspirants - can find THE middle ground when speaking in polar opposites (never/always/ever).
del. On second thought not worth getting uptight about
In my experience, women have just as high a sex drive as men but this is neither constant nor set in stone for either sex at any particular time.
A few more for the mix:
Men's bits are accessible and relatively low maintenance - two basic functions both of which are pleasurable - maybe this helps drive a lack of awareness combined with an obsession and maybe even serves to narrow the topics of conversation.
Generally, women I think may be more comfortable with discussing sex related topics with their friends and between parent and child, there may be more guidance available for women.
Men often don't have the same approach with their friends or ready access to routes of serious discussion or ways to seek reassurance and guidance - perhaps the internet provides a way.
I have a fairly high sex drive, but it is not random. I never had a desire to hook up with random people. My high sex drive is driven by emotional connection with my partner, and it does not develop until I have immense trust and strong feelings for my partner. Not that there aren't women who are different, of course. But that is pretty typical among most women I know. Most women want a degree of trust present, while for men this does not seem to usually be a factor. They don't need to trust the woman. On the flip side, they often spend a lot of time earning a woman's trust because they know they will need it.
@Boru I'm sure most of us women can't relate to the male sex drive. But the exact things you point out are the exact things that can frighten us. I live in a very safe area. very rural. Most people here have connections to each other. We are very community oriented and we all know our neighbors. Most people don't lock their doors. But last summer I was running on a gravel road, and came across 3 young college aged men walking my way. I evaluated quickly if I wanted to go through them (it was an atv trail, so only wide enough for the 3 of them and they were not moving as I approached) or not. I turned around. Not only did I turn around, but I took a side trail and took a private driveway with houses along it to get out of their view.
We might not understand the male sex drive. But men likewise do not understand the realities of living like this. And the idea that we are simply supposed to expect that men have a strong sex drive to the point they cannot be expected to control it is exactly that idea that makes us have to turn around when we are out for a run. I don't think anyone should repress their sexuality. But there is a time and a place, and there are the proper people to express it with. "You don't understand my high sex drive and if you ask me to tone it down I might get suicidal" is unacceptable. Control is not the same as repressing.
Hey @Karasti. You said, ""You don't understand my high sex drive and if you ask me to tone it down I might get suicidal" is unacceptable," and I think that's a strong misrepresentation of what @Boru meant by his post. I believe I read and understood what you both were trying to say. This is what he said, "I don't think it is easy for women to understand just how powerful the male sex drive is. ... A lot of men, even the quiet ones, can become consumed by lust. Involuntary suppression of men's sex drives can sometimes lead to disastrous consequences like suicide or depression.
In my opinion it's these reasons that porn addiction is a big problem for young men. The guys starting these thread’s are probably concerned of the hold their addiction has over them, much the same as someone who drinks too much."
So, what I take as the gist of what he's saying here in sum, is that it's a serious issue that he hopes men can find an appropriate and safe forum in which to discuss it.
Yes, indeed. I'm not saying those with addictions or similar problems whether it's in regards to sex directly or porn or other things shouldn't have a voice. But I also hear the same things said in excuse for using women. It is a very common reason given for adultery and even for rape.
I've participated in many of those threads, and I try to keep an open mind. But I'd be lying if I didn't say the comments made by posters and men who comment aren't scary when it comes to addressing the overall issue of how women are treated in regards to sex and boundaries and their bodies, and the whole mess. The number of men who agree with statements made here before, such as men who have commented they might leave their partner because their sexual needs -those comments are concerning. Because they make it sound like all the other qualities we have to offer isn't enough, that they'll overlook other flaws in favor of a good sex life, but if the good sex life falls away, no amount of amazing qualities is enough to save the relationship. We are consistently reduced to the ability to please a man in bed and if that isn't happening anymore, than the 'strong sex drive' is a qualifying factor in ending the relationship, even if the poor woman has a medical problem.
Yes, the men who do use it as an excuse is clearly a valid concern. I think it takes it one step beyond - perhaps - the general nature of the issues presented by the OP. I suppose a different thread might be in order. These modern secular concerns are important to bringing Buddhism into the present - same old problems - maybe they can be looked at in a better light somehow.
Thank you for making my point for me.
I might add you conveniently left out the part where I said to Boru:
__I'm fully aware that is something probably unintended__ - you know, giving Boru the benefit of the doubt whilst giving my opinion.......
I tried to whittle the quote down and at the time didn't think it was important to what I was trying to explain. Once upon a time, I used to think it was all that to make points in arguments in forums, but not any more. (I had no idea what that unintended part might be.)
Oh yeah, @silver , I spoke in absolutes. I hate when I do that. On the other hand, one should never kill. That's an absolute.
I just got worked up about the walking on eggshells comment -- I think being sensitive comes before worrying about being put out to make a group of people comfortable.
It comes down to that throughout the course of history, men have lead the conversation about sex and gender and I don't really think it's appropriate anymore.
Well, if you mean that men led conversations about sex etc. but amongst themselves. Y'know the old men only clubs/groups. I think we have to stop pretending that we know everything about the past and all the different paths that men/women have taken. See? You even take what I said and turn it to extremes. I don't feel I said anything to the effect of females making males more comfy. Why ask men to take our feelings into consideration if we don't return the favor when it's appropriate, huh?
The comments made by @Boru being discussed or criticised as being unconsciously insensitive are similar to those I detailed in a post a short while back, regarding commentators in the current Olympic games. (see links at bottom of post).
The big problem seems to be (in a nutshell) that over the millennia, both men and women have become so used, and inured to sexism in everyday situations, that once shortcomings are highlighted the response is either that people are being overly touchy and taking offence at nothing, or that finally, people are waking up to just how insidious and insensitive such discussion is.
@silver saw nothing wrong with what @Boru said. @dhammachick on the other hand, felt a nerve scratched.
Poor Boru, I'm sure, had no intention whatsoever of conveying condescension, or making allowances for creepy sex stalkers... but it's just a further indication of how we have been programmed over thousands of years, to take this kind of male "sexual supremacy" as a given, and that 'boys will be boys' when it comes to sexual drive and gratification.
In a nutshell, it's "I'm a sexual animal, I can't help it."
Really interesting discussion, to see women airing their views on this so frankly and comfortably is not something you come across every day. It's been educational
I don't think you can get away from it being a genuine problem for many young men. The Internet bringing porn to the forefront of sex education for young males has been a problem, it has probably stimulated rape culture and fetishism, which seem to have become more mainstream in the media, but it has also been a boon, in exposing just how poor the control and maturity of many men is when dealing with their sex drive.
In my opinion it is sex education that is at fault here. It is just bad practice to leave young men uneducated and unaccompanied when they are starting to encounter the most powerful biological drive they know, with porn as the major source of examples of sexual practice which opens up the door for porn addiction. This is not the way to develop a healthy relationship to a powerful sex drive.
Tackling this problem would hopefully also at least partially solve the problem for women. But it is structurally deeply embedded in Western culture, very little time is given to it in families, and even less on a community level. Back in the Stone Age this would be dealt with on the tribal level, and a young guy of sixteen or eighteen would be considered a man, a hunter with those in their twenties and thirties as his peers, but nowadays we just let our youngsters muddle along together.
Some good points there @Kerome... Similarly, a lot of attention is given to the female menopause, and now research suggests men go through a similar phase. However, that's the stage at the senior end of life. Scant attention is paid to the time when kids (who arguably are at a critical educational stage and need to focus on studying and getting good scholastic results!) are going through the opposite transition: Everything is waking up and raging; yet it's all put down to typical teenage behaviour and lack of direction from their parents.
I feel similar allowances should be made, and people should be more understanding.
I have often felt I would have benefited from education had it come later in life - I was more mature and able to concentrate and focus, in a slightly older period, that I was in my biological developmental stage. I could have done with a better framework of personal support then!
Wow. Whatever happened to sex as a means for reproduction and expressing love?
Human sexual mores and traditions have kind of a mixed heritage in that area. I don't know any men who start a sexual relationship with the purpose of reproducing... And love and mere sexual attraction are so often confused in popular culture that I'm sure that many young men don't even know what love is anymore, unless they are lucky enough to have sprung from a couple whose own emotional bond has stood the test of time.
I was the only one I knew of as well and I found it as strange then as I do now. I did go through lustful stages but would always sabotage my own efforts by sticking to my morals and ruining the mood by talking about feelings and how sex means more than a buzz.
It just makes me shake my head when I see the little tell tale signs of a repressed populace with misplaced priorities. God forbid little Jimmy sees a boob on tv but hey if Daffy is getting his head shot off by Buggs then pass the popcorn and isn't that cute?
I was a virgin til 23 and at times I felt shame for it. Mostly though I just wasn't attracted unless I figured she would be a good mom.
Lol, I live near the beach in the Netherlands and here it's not that unusual for women to sunbathe topless. There's a nudist beach at the other end of the boulevard. It's in some ways a much less repressed society and women seem to be more open for it, although it's far from perfect and needs more work in some areas. There's about 40% women in our parliament.
Some fascinating posts. I think for the OT, one problem that has to be addressed in a mixed forum or any Sangha is that Buddhism traditionally doesn't address gender roles or equal rights for women, and the only thing about sex is, "If you're a monk, don't do it. For the rest of you, here's a Precept. Good luck."
. The tendency to check the Suttas for guidelines only makes it worse, because some of those old monks who put words in Buddha's mouth didn't have a very enlightened attitude about women at all. I guess if you have a legalistic Buddhist who thinks Buddhism should only be about what the sacred scriptures tell you it is, that can create a problem. I don't remember, but we probably struggled with it in the past here too, going by the posts above.
However, it does in places give the quote that "Buddhism would have lasted a thousand years if they hadn't admitted women, and only 500 years with". That and the many extra rules for bikkhunis does make me wonder - if you were viewing the genders as equal, wouldn't you have some rules that were meant for males, and some for females, rather than just saying, here is a ton of extra rules for females?
So perhaps female-friendly communities are grown over time? Let's hope that is not too discouraging for the OP.
I am not all that familiar with the OPs forum, just what I read in the link he provided. But I do remember him saying in that thread that it was obvious to him based on profile picture (and maybe other information, I can't recall) who was female and who was male. When I think about this place, and a few other places that have successfully allowed male/female open discussion, most of them have had that anonymity in place. Perhaps that helps, where people can let their gender be know when they are ready, but nothing gives it away ahead of time. You can get your feet wet and be judged more on your words than anything else. We've even had a couple of people suggest here that we have to put our gender in our header info because they find it hard not to know how to read the words when they can't assign a gender to them. But perhaps that is exactly what makes so many discussions as open as they are here. Or contributes to it. Rather than having to dig in heels and fight that gender perception from the start. Or maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet!
@Kerome I think education is a big part of it that is lacking. We offer sex ed in many states here, in schools, but it is biological information and has nothing to do with managing relationships or anything else. It is a topic I have discussed with my kids from the time they were babies (my oldest is almost 20 now) and because we kept it open when they asked basic questions as little kids, their heavier questions are easier to answer now. Nothing is off the table in our house, and our discussions about sex have been extensive, including discussing rape from both points of view. I've had discussions about porn with my 2 older kids. I want them to be as aware as they can about all that sex entails and how they are expected to consider women in their lives. And how porn and movies completely skew the realities of sex. And many other things. It's not always a comfortable topic, but we do pretty well and I answer fully honestly. And my husband as well. But I chose to do so because I knew nothing about it going into puberty and my first relationships. I knew nothing about what to actually expect because sex ed was useless and I had no idea what was going on with my body. I didn't want my kids to be in that boat. They also hear all about periods and tampons and how all that works, too, to take the mystery out of it and to be supportive of their friends and girlfriends by at least being informed of what happens to them every month and why. I cannot control their choices but at least they come to me with their questions. I have no doubt they go to the internet and friends, too, lol. But they do ask me quite a few questions, and for that I am grateful for their willingness to do so.
Actually according to some scripture it does (see further links below).
From HERE.
First of all, in some quarters this passage is interpreted as a reflection of how easily distracted men are, not that women are detrimental to the Dhamma. It is apparently (according to some) illustrative of how easily men are led by their sexual drives, passions and lust. It is the men who will bring the Dhamma to a speedier end. Not the women.
Judging by discussion on this forum, with regard to how some young men are driven by their sexual urges, it's not difficult to accept this interpretation as a possible....
With regard to the number or rules, initially, bikkhunis certainly had more regulations, but these were more numerous in order to protect them from unwanted male attention.
It is thought that so many more additional rules were subsequently added to discourage women from ordaining.
This is an extremely informative article.
Yes, it took time here, too, to establish not only a prominent female profile, but over time, the membership has 'settled down' and there is a good group of regular participants all of whom certainly help to keep the checks and balances, I would say.
You're attributing @Cinorjer's words to me, i'll just mention for correctness. Honestly I don't know if there are supernatural, non-historically-patriarchal reasons for Buddhas to be portrayed as mostly male, it's certainly an interesting question. I like Tara a lot, though from a more cynical point of view it whiffs slightly of tokenism. There is probably enough material in that for another 100-post thread
Apologies, you are quite right. Rectified.
I never expected that I would have to clarify after making my previous comment that I do not condone rape or sexual harassment in any way and that it was not my intention to give that impression. I won't be making any more comments on that topic or this thread.
Nobody's blaming you @Boru. No clarification needed.... We get it.
...And this is what I mean by women who overreact and how it affects the 'good' men.^
This attitude won't help anyone.
It takes two things, @Silver: A speaker and a hearer.
Neither may be intentionally offensive, and certainly, @Boru had absolutely no intention of causing offence or being deliberately thoughtless.
But if some women take offence, it is not for you to insist they shouldn't be. They gave reason. And there was nothing wrong with that reason, you simply took it differently.
Everybody's contribution is as a result of their conditioning and experience.
Boru is not to blame for thinking the way he did, nor expressing himself the way he did.
He did so in all innocence and with every positive intention.
But rather than suddenly take offence and cry off further contribution, perhaps taking a step back and observing, absorbing and trying to understand different views, will broaden the mind and deepen the understanding.
It's a little like once calling someone a spastic, or a mongol.
Once upon a time, socially, they were completely acceptable and unquestioned.
Then someone, somewhere, began to outline why such terminology was dismissive and disrespectful.
The majority of people had never considered it that way, nor had they intended any condescension or insult.
But now, people are referred to as physically disabled, or they have Down Syndrome.
Because it's more correct and socially acceptable.
Please understand: Women did NOT 'over-react'. They resisted.
They resisted the archetypal description of an aspect of masculinity which hitherto has been considered the acceptable norm. And they expanded with a justification of that.
Simply because you do not think or see things as they do, does not make them wrong.
And 'Good men' are two a penny on here. We got more good men than many forums. More than you could shake a stick at.
But even 'Good men' don't always have the perfect mind-set.
We are all here to learn, and to exchange views.
Not point divisive fingers of blame.
Because in this instance, there is no 'blame'.
Just experience.
I generally agree, @Federica. It's just that you saying no divisive fingers of blame, but ... hmm. How to put it. In so many words, you say accurately: no blame/no one to blame and yet...there it is. I just don't think we can roll up all our opinions in one cigarette and call it a good smoke. PEOPLE overreact sometimes. Even women, heheh.
....
Which reminded me of this
"A young monk arrives at the monastery. He is assigned by the abbot to helping the other monks in copying the old sacred text by hand.
He notices, however, that all of the monks are copying from copies, not from the original manuscript. So, the new monk goes to the abbot to question this, pointing out that if someone made even a small error in the first copy, it would never be picked up! In fact, that error would be continued in all of the subsequent copies.
The Abbot, says, "We have been copying from the copies for over a thousand years, but you make a good point, my son."
He goes down into the dark caves underneath the monastery
where the original texts are held as archives in a locked
vault that hasn't been opened for hundreds of years. Hours go
by and nobody sees the old abbot.
So, the young monk gets worried and goes down to look for him. He sees him banging his head against the wall and wailing,
"We missed the "R" ! , we missed the "R" !"
His forehead is all bloody and bruised and he is crying
uncontrollably. The young monk asks the old abbot, "What's wrong, master?"
With A choking voice, the old abbot replies, "The word was,
CELEBRATE!!!""
I didn't say that people - even women - don't over-react. I just don't think their opinions here can be dismissed as mere over-reaction.
We do often speak in very broad terms (pardon that potential pun), so, I just want to say that I wasn't dismissing it, just a warning of sorts. It's too easy to see just how touchy a subject sex is. I want to suggest that people take up an appropriate form of self defense for one. Staying on an even keel in all ways as much as possible - physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually is of the utmost importance in Life.