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Blasted naturists! The Buddha was an English gentleman and would never have encouraged such lewd behaviour.
Here is an image of the Buddha from the lost suttas of the Spiny Nikaya:
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Ugh! Not my favourite person at the best of times.... I think he is portraying general Gordon, here, who himself was far from popular 'with the natives'... Plus he is/was so pro-gun lobby that it shamed me to listen to him spout aggressive and blinkered rhetoric on Americans and their right to bear arms.... But we'll let that go...
(See how topics meander...?!)
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@federica said: Ok, I now have clearance to reveal why exactly this thread was begun.
I was approached, via Pm, to converse with a Forum founder through the medium of email, who asked me this:
I've been thinking for some time about how to encourage more women participating in our forum... @Jayantha mentioned that your forum does pretty well at this, so: what's your secret?
If there's anything you've learned or any advice you might have, it would be greatly appreciated.
The founder is Bhante Sujato and his forum is here.
I know he has been "lurking" (in a good way!) and digesting all the responses here, so he will be along soon to contribute his own comments.
In contrast with suttacentral the main thing that stands out to me about this forum is its accessibility of the content and the breadth of the topics. Here almost anything Buddhist-related is welcome, and a lot of personal development as well. If I was looking for a forum to just discuss the sutta's I would consider his side, but I think you would find relatively fewer people who would have the deep knowledge of Buddhism to contribute, and a lot of those will be in the Far East and speaking Thai or Korean or Japanese.
It does make me wonder whether there isn't room for a meta community of English speaking Buddhist forums. A super-forum organisation made of different individual forums focussed on different facets of Buddhism
@SpinyNorman said:
Blasted naturists! The Buddha was an English gentleman and would never have encouraged such lewd behaviour.
Well said.
The Buddha being all knowing (allegedly) was clearly aware he would be part of the EU future British Empire. Also he was not sky clad like the Jains, as this would scare the horses, much as the Northern kilt wearing tribes of EU Scottishland are known to do.
I think the light and easy environment means a lot. It means we get to know each other. We've experienced death, birth, birthdays...shared in life events. That's what creates the environment of trust and that you feel you know each other....which then leads to an environment that's open to share and then open to receive advice and guidance from each other. You have to put in the time and attention to get to know people and their ways. We laugh together and praise each other, but have enough of a personal knowledge and experience of each other to 'check' each other in a productive way. A 'school' environment doesn't exactly give the feel of warmth and togetherness...you know? I think we're pretty good as a group bringing Buddhism into everything....from the small...to the huge things in life. A forum should be a group of friends that foster and feed the main thing we have in common...Buddhism. Ways to practice....ways to apply the approach of Buddhism.
Also, as women...we need to take responsibility for participating. You can't be a wallflower and then complain no one is asking you to dance. Put yourself out there....watch out for crazy guys and learn how to socially read people. If some guy keeps hitting you up on PM...ignore his butt!! Don't let anyone run you away from your own path and intentions. Pm is good for more private subjects...but this is a group! Most conversations should take place on board. That cuts down on he-say, she-say...and lends the support and protection of the group. We help each other out pretty quick when we see someone stepping on toes or being extra.
@lobster said: The Buddha being all knowing (allegedly) was clearly aware he would be part of the EU future British Empire. Also he was not sky clad like the Jains, as this would scare the horses, much as the Northern kilt wearing tribes of EU Scottishland are known to do.
Admittedly there are some doubts about the authenticity of the Spiny Nikaya. Textual analysis by scholars has revealed some dubious references to "Neapolitan ice-cream" and "Lawrence of Arabia", which they say must have been added in later. But scholars are not always right.
Thanks to Federica for helping out with this, and to Jayantha for getting us in touch. I have read all your comments and really appreciate them.
Just a couple of responses. Someone asked whether the blokes' forums had had a confab to figure out why women don't like them. Lol, no. I just chatted with a couple of the women who do use the site and wondered whether we could do anything to make it friendlier.
I posted a similar question at the meta site for our forum software, fondly imagining it was something that had been discussed and that I might get some help. You can see this here if you're interested. Suffice to say that the tech word is not getting over its gender issues any time soon.
As to what we're doing, obviously it has a more scholarly focus, and doesn't aim to replicate a more informal social forum like this one: there's no need! our community has been pretty good on the whole, so it's not like I'm seeing a huge problem. But I would like to encourage people, especially women, who are more beginners to jump in.
One possibility is to maybe start a new category, similar to your "general banter", to give people a space for more informal chat.
One possibility is to maybe start a new category, similar to your "general banter", to give people a space for more informal chat.
Sounds like a good idea!
It's up to the women to assert themselves scholarly and know the environment they are choosing to be in. Are they feeling intimated? Why? If they are choosing this environment, are they prepared to be in the ring? Do they know their book stuff and are able to debate/clap back with people who are? Or are they just there to get info from others? If so...I think questioning and talking things out should be encouraged. For example...Does anyone have a different take on this writing? How could this sutta/sutra be applied to householders? Maybe expanding on writings to reach a broader audience/different people. It has to be applicable for people to feel fed and willing to feed others.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
If I may be so bold, it's not so much the knowledge, or lack of it, that I think concerns many women, it's that unfortunately, they have encountered a great deal of not-so-covert prejudice, sexism and patronising condescension.
If we are brutally honest (and it pains me to say it), Buddhism has sexist elements to it, as has any organised Religion, and far from being open to change and adaptation, some quarters are emphatic on the exclusion of women from some areas of practice. Sadly, this is occasionally reflected in the attitudes of male forum participants, be they laypeople or the ordained. I have been "victim" of such attitudes and frankly, it stinks.
I can think of three separate incidents where I had an acrid and bitter dose of sexist discrimination on other Buddhist Forums. I'm not going to elaborate on them here, suffice to say, they left a nasty taste in my mouth. Which is why, hitherto, I have not ventured onto any other Buddhist forum for a very long while....
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@Sujato said:
I posted a similar question at the meta site for our forum software, fondly imagining it was something that had been discussed and that I might get some help. You can see this here if you're interested. Suffice to say that the tech word is not getting over its gender issues any time soon.
They do seem a little hidebound, @Sujato . But there were a few interesting things that came out of it. Forums that have a female moderating presence seem to do better - I am on another forum where this is true as well - and technical forums seem to do worse.
Also I think women look for the presence of other women, as a form of 'social validation', that they will be able to chat freely, cope with potential harassment issues and so on. I'm sure you probably have all the right tools as part of your software, like ignore features and blocking people.
One possibility is to maybe start a new category, similar to your "general banter", to give people a space for more informal chat.
I think women do enjoy a social, browsing-the-content kind of style more than a hunt-for-content, search directed experience. But having women involved in moderation and creation of the site will immediately bring these kind of issues to the fore.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Sujato said:...I posted a similar question at the meta site for our forum software, fondly imagining it was something that had been discussed and that I might get some help. You can see this here if you're interested. Suffice to say that the tech word is not getting over its gender issues any time soon.
I took a look at that thread and basically, my first thought was "I really need to come on and reply here" followed a little later by "These guys don't get it." So I abandoned the idea.
Which doesn't surprise me, because a man making sexist prejudicial remarks believing himself to be entirely logical and right - will not get that he's making sexist prejudicial remarks.
Incidentally, I don't think they know that they don't know.
This level of unconscious bias pales into insignificance, compared to what I put up with (as mentioned in my previous post).
It is, whether I like it or not, intimidating to observe and realize a place is full of men. I would be less likely to participate in such a place, not out of fear but out of a lacking collective group to share with. Men and women (generally speaking) approach a lot of things differently, and when you are a minority in number in a group, and you share a very different way of seeing or doing things, you are often met with some hostility for upsetting the male applecart. There are, sadly, still a lot of men who are really uncomfortable having their views challenged by women. Regardless of the forum or topic, there is a huge lack of understanding on the part of many men, of the world women live in that has largely been created and is being upheld by them. I am in some terrific running and yoga groups, and the same issues come up.
The hard part is when women stand up and take a bit of a leadership role to discussing these things, they are shut down hard. So many female voices in the internet world have been closed down after they or their children have been horribly threatened and made to feel unsafe for sharing their views. I'm not sure how to help people move past that. We sit in the background until we are sure we are safe, and the minute we don't feel safe, we are gone. It's just not worth the risk with the information some people can so quickly find out about you.
I tend to read people pretty well, and can get a pretty good feel of a place and its inhabitants pretty quickly. Just as you can you walk into a building or a room and feel a huge change, online rooms are no different. Some have a very open, airy, welcoming feel, and some do not. I simply stay away from all the rest. It would be, I think, pretty hard to open a forum to feeling warm and welcoming without allowing general banter between the members. I think @Vastmind hit the nail on the head. I need that trust if I am going to share things with people, and if it's not there and there is no way to develop it, I have no interest. I have to have a vested interest in the people to want to participate in discussion with them, and I have to be able to relate it to real world stuff. Suttras do me no good whatsoever if I can't apply them to living my daily life. I have zero interest in studying words just to study them.
@Sujato That was the last place I'd have advised to start that discussion. Ask a site like FeverBee for community management advice.
@Sujato said:
Suffice to say that the tech word is not getting over its gender issues any time soon.
I actually work for a Discourse competitor; we build the software running this forum. I couldn't agree with you more. Our company is fairly isolated from the day-to-day of Silicon Valley and its culture. Many tech folks would see this as a disadvantage; we definitely do not.
@federica said: I can think of three separate incidents where I had an acrid and bitter dose of sexist discrimination on other Buddhist Forums. I'm not going to elaborate on them here, suffice to say, they left a nasty taste in my mouth. Which is why, hitherto, I have not ventured onto any other Buddhist forum for a very long while....
Without being too specific, could you say a bit more about this? It might be helpful to a wider audience.
@Vastmind said:
That cuts down on he-say, she-say...and lends the support and protection of the group. We help each other out pretty quick when we see someone stepping on toes or being extra.
I should add a footnote that if you ever feel you've received an inappropriate private message, you can simply add Federica or myself to the conversation directly, or quote it to us. I can selectively pull from the database to confirm if necessary. I go out of my way to avoid ever reading private messages (and don't grant anyone else the ability to do so), but I will absolutely do it in the case of abuse.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@federica said: I can think of three separate incidents where I had an acrid and bitter dose of sexist discrimination on other Buddhist Forums. I'm not going to elaborate on them here, suffice to say, they left a nasty taste in my mouth. Which is why, hitherto, I have not ventured onto any other Buddhist forum for a very long while....
Without being too specific, could you say a bit more about this? It might be helpful to a wider audience.
2 were on esangha. So that's history, and I'm quite happy to elaborate on this:
One: I attempted to join a thread where rebirth was being discussed, and the matter of reincarnation as a distinction, arose.
I began to discuss that in Theravada, such a phenomenon was not recognised as a process, (remember this was years ago) and that reincarnation was, as far as I knew, a Tibetan Buddhist concept. I was rounded on by two other (male) members, one from each tradition and the gist of their discussion was that I was only a female, had little or no right to comment if I wasn't a follower of Mahayana, and besides which, I should instead devote myself to silent study of Theravada texts, and not speak, because women would be the ruin of the Dhamma, if they were allowed to voice an opinion too frequently. (This happened over the space of around 25 posts or so, therefore please understand I am condensing....)
The second issue was when there was a clear woman-bashing thread, and I attempted to be a smartass, and give as good as I got. Of course, they cleverly disguised their woman bashing by selectively quoting passages of the Sutras/suttas and claiming that in Buddhist terms there was no question of our stupidity or inferiority. When I complained, and flagged the posts, I was banned for inciting arguments and being inflammatory in my attitude.
The third incident is only slightly more recent, and I was - I admit - in heated discussion with a male member who I believe was now ordained, who made certain deprecating remarks about women, their un predictable temperaments, volatile natures and distracting ways. He was quite abrupt and insulting, and I tried to indicate that this bias against women in Theravada was misplaced, ordination should be permitted and that men had had it their way for far too long.
A Moderator closed me down, deleted my posts and via PM, explained that the person in question had known abuse from his spouse, had suffered some injury at her hands, and that therefore his attitude was understandable.
I fired off a few home-truths, including an account of some very traumatic experiences of my own, to which he responded that, paraphrasing, his situation trumped mine, because it was far rarer, and therefore more traumatic for a man to suffer domestic violence than a woman. Women were more used to such things, and were accustomed to dealing with them.
I kid you not.
Both forums have/had issues regarding Moderation, most - if not all of which - was/is conducted by male moderators only. Esangha's ultimate demise was as a result of their Moderating methods. But that does not mean or imply that sexism played a role, or prominent part.
@Sujato said:> I posted a similar question at the meta site for our forum software, fondly imagining it was something that had been discussed and that I might get some help. You can see this here if you're interested. Suffice to say that the tech word is not getting over its gender issues any time soon.
It seems a bit chicken and egg, Bhante, and I smiled at a comment you made: "All I know so far is that here, in a forum where 98% of the discussion is by men, we've now had three men explain why gender issues are not relevant."
I read through the thread @Sujato shared the link to and I'm not sure why but I'm consistently surprised at how often someone is told "There is a problem, how can we solve it?" and their response is "Huh? There is no problem." Most women will tell you there is a problem. All around us. A big problem. To be told "There is not" is just yet another way some men continue to relegate women into the land of unimportance.
I am all for a world where gender doesn't matter. Where we can express whatever we want of ourselves any given day and no get flack for it. But we aren't in that world yet and for others to say things like "There is no gender" is just yet another way to discount that there is a problem. I might be fine with a world where the gender lines are blurred or don't exist. But most people are not and regardless of our beliefs we still have to live in this world.
The one plus I see is how much this discussion is at the forefront. I was pleased to see the internet smackdown this week when female Olympians were reduced to the men behind them. Yet there are still a lot of men who read those headlines and can't see a problem.
I guess it doesn't really matter if we are talking Buddhism or the tech world, or gaming, or sports, or work or whatever. The bottom line is there is a problem. The discussion helps. That is good, it helps at least some people see they have been wrong and to revisit the way they think and speak and act. But as with most things, it comes down to how individuals raise their children and what each of us can do to improve our households, our schools, our communities so when people spread out into the world, that message improves.
@Jayantha said:
Still trying to figure out my "roll" on places like new Buddhist, where I never to come off as "hey i'm the monk I know these things you should listen to me" but also want to be available for people who appreciate a monastic around.
Your journey of devotion and resulting insights will no doubt be of interest and use - perhaps also, in this give and take, there shall arise insights that are applicable to your journey.
@Linc said:Once upon a time, when this site was still quite small we had an extremely active member who I'll call Stan. He participated in nearly every discussion - what you'd call a "booster" in community management parlance.
On behalf of the BU ( Booster Union ), I would like to say that most of us are well-intentioned ( though easily bored ) and just trying to liven things up a bit.
@Jayantha said:
Still trying to figure out my "roll" on places like new Buddhist, where I never to come off as "hey i'm the monk I know these things you should listen to me" but also want to be available for people who appreciate a monastic around.
Your journey of devotion and resulting insights will no doubt be of interest and use - perhaps also, in this give and take, there shall arise insights that are applicable to your journey.
"far rarer, and therefore more traumatic for a man to suffer domestic violence than a woman."
I just don't even … like, how is it possible for thoughts like this to even assemble themselves in a human brain?
"This level of unconscious bias pales into insignificance, compared to what I put up with"
In terms of severity, sure; but I'm not sure that the overall damage from simple ignorance isn't even worse.
For me, all this relates to my experience in trying to support ordination for women. My experience was that there are a small minority of monks who are messed up about women, truly misogynistic. The vast majority were not, but they were blind to the issues and stood up for their mates.
This isn't just an absence; it's like the guys on the meta.discourse thread who say that coding is "neutral". Or, as Buddhists like to say, that's just "the way it is".
This "neutrality" enables all kinds of harmful impulses. It's what I saw in the Sangha; and in much bigger and more virulent forms, it's what's made twitter into a honeypot for assholes.
@federica said:> A Moderator closed me down, deleted my posts and via PM, explained that the person in question had known abuse from his spouse, had suffered some injury at her hands, and that therefore his attitude was understandable.
I fired off a few home-truths, including an account of some very traumatic experiences of my own, to which he responded that, paraphrasing, his situation trumped mine, because it was far rarer, and therefore more traumatic for a man to suffer domestic violence than a woman. Women were more used to such things, and were accustomed to dealing with them.
A very strange response. Clearly it would be good if there were more female mods on these forums, though it's a bit chicken and egg with forums which few women visit.
@SpinyNorman if I understood correctly, the mods in @Sujatos forum are all women. If true, that's a bit odd that a forum with so little female participation would monitor its mostly male base with nothing but women. Balance is always called for, I think. Unless of course the only people who expressed interest were the women.
@karasti said: @SpinyNorman if I understood correctly, the mods in @Sujatos forum are all women. If true, that's a bit odd that a forum with so little female participation would monitor its mostly male base with nothing but women. Balance is always called for, I think. Unless of course the only people who expressed interest were the women.
Oh, I hadn't realised that. But yes, balance is always good.
@federica said: Ok, there is a point to this, but I'm not going to reveal what it is, yet.
However, I have been asked my opinion as to why 'newbuddhist' is such a popular forum with both genders?
Bit of a digression here. Gender isn't binary; there are more than two of these things! I'm genderqueer/genderneutral and prefer gender neutral pronouns (ey/em, they/them, even it/its). I have gender dysphoria about my body and how it should be, however that dysphoria isn't pointed to either male or female forms. When I get to save some money, I'm going to get tested because I think I'm intersex (possessing different chromosomes than simply XX and XY).
ANYWAY, I'm AFAB -- Assigned Female At Birth. So people usually refer to me as a woman in real life (it's hard to convince people to do otherwise when you've got an hourglass frame).
In conclusion, I don't feel like there's any sort of gender barrier in the conversations here, is all I can say. Shrug
We are all human and we all have faults & flaws ( well @lobster is the exception to this rule on both counts... @lobsters have shells & claws ) ...
No doubt when it comes to gender bias, one's conditioning has a lot to answer for.. However I guess if one is practising the Dharma correctly there would be no discrimination ( Well apart from discriminating wisdom that is ) ...
But as we all know...Egos being egos more often than not may have their own hidden a gender.... (Pun intended)
ANYWAY, I'm AFAB -- Assigned Female At Birth. So people usually refer to me as a woman in real life (it's hard to convince people to do otherwise when you've got an hourglass frame).
I read that at first as ANYWAY, I'm FAB to which I would say yes, yes you are
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
One thing I had noticed which seems to be a very singular 'male' problem, is that at some point or another the discussion of Porn, masturbation and the suppression of sexual impulses is brought up. I think every forum I've ever belonged to has had at least one thread at any one time focusing on the issue of Male Sexual desire, and how to control/eliminate it.
Men in Buddhism obviously see this as a burning issue, which I think only serves to highlight just how influential the Porn industry is, and how fixated some men seem to be.
This isn't a criticism; it's an observation.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Given how Buddhism does point out that mastering the sexual impulse is a requirement, it's something that's bound to come up. But it's one of a range of obvious topics... Movie violence, vegetarianism, killing insects and pests are just a few of the others. I'm not sure why one would say it's a particular fixation?
Although I do have to say some men are so over-the-top attached to sexual behaviour that it can be a problem, bothering female members of forums to the point of idiocy. I think it is disrespectful.
Fortunately we don't seem to have many members here who are interested in prawn movies.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2016
@Kerome said:
Given how Buddhism does point out that mastering the sexual impulse is a requirement, it's something that's bound to come up. But it's one of a range of obvious topics... Movie violence, vegetarianism, killing insects and pests are just a few of the others. I'm not sure why one would say it's a particular fixation?
Because it's the only area where only one gender brings it up. Men and women instigate discussions about violence, vegetarianism, killing insects and pests. Almost exclusively, it's men who discuss problems regarding sexual impulse. I honestly don't recall, in all my years of frequenting Buddhist forums anywhere, a woman beginning a thread on controlling female sexual impulses.
Although I do have to say some men are so over-the-top attached to sexual behaviour that it can be a problem, bothering female members of forums to the point of idiocy. I think it is disrespectful.
I'm not so much bothered as to perplexed as to why it should be such a huge problem for men, and such an insignificant one for women.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@federica said:
I'm not so much bothered as to perplexed as to why it should be such a huge problem for men, and such an insignificant one for women.
I've heard it said that women attach more to emotion and men attach more to the sexual drive, which to me makes a lot of sense. The genders behave differently in a number of respects - approaches to social situations, shopping, home-making - so is it not reasonable that in religion too there might be differences? In many ways the search for enlightenment is a kind of exploration of the mind, and men and women do tend to think differently.
I expect there will be other topics which are mostly started by women
Mes's sexual system is rather simple, and easily triggered, and men generally have a strong sex drive. So it is not surprising that the sex facet is never far from the surface. But it would never occur to me that my sexuality is a 'problem ' or that it has any impact on whether I pursue Buddhism, bocci ball, or birdwatching.
My wife seems incapable of leaving the house, for any reason whatsoever, without first attending to her makeup and hair. This is in no way a 'problem.' It's just how she functions. It certainly is not how I function. Vive la differance.
Women seem to keep close to the surface a general awareness of personal safety and physical appearance, which I think men are more typically quite oblivious to. But the fact that these are insignificant for men has no bearing whatever on whether or how women pursue Buddhism. Why then should women's' lower sex drive be seen as a problem that men have, or anything to do with Buddhism?
Men and women simply have ways in which they are different.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2016
@Kerome said: I expect there will be other topics which are mostly started by women
Name one topic that is predominantly insistently, frequently and habitually begun by women. Alone.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Steve_B said:
Mes's sexual system is rather simple, and easily triggered, and men generally have a strong sex drive. So it is not surprising that the sex facet is never far from the surface. But it would never occur to me that my sexuality is a 'problem ' or that it has any impact on whether I pursue Buddhism, bocci ball, or birdwatching.
My wife seems incapable of leaving the house, for any reason whatsoever, without first attending to her makeup and hair. This is in no way a 'problem.' It's just how she functions. It certainly is not how I function. Vive la differance.
Women seem to keep close to the surface a general awareness of personal safety and physical appearance, which I think men are more typically quite oblivious to. But the fact that these are insignificant for men has no bearing whatever on whether or how women pursue Buddhism. Why then should women's' lower sex drive be seen as a problem that men have, or anything to do with Buddhism?
Men and women simply have ways in which they are different.
I'm not the one making it into a problem. Men are.
Men seem to believe it's an impact on their practice.
Not any that I've met. But we all travel in different circles and have different experiences, so all's fair.
But in any event, it seems unperplexing that different people have a spectrum of experiences with different manifestations of our makeups. I have no difficulty with suppressing rage, because I don't generally experience any. There definitely exist those who do, though, and I find it not at all perplexing if they have trouble suppressing it or if they bring it up in conversation.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
You're missing the point.
This isn't a case of different people having a spectrum of experiences, and to use your example, women also have anger issues.
My point is that on every Buddhist forum I have been on, there seems to be a regular occurrence of a discussion at one point or another, on the manifestation of sexual desire, its suppression, or the use of porn, and this subject matter is exclusively put forward by men alone. Consistently.
That's what I find perplexing. It seems to be a singularly male issue, frequently brought up as a problem, by men, alone.
It's just odd that women do not have any issue with this side of their persona, regardless of how many women frequent the particular forum....
Yes, I do see that you are perplexed. But I don't seem to have enough commonality with you in vocabulary or perspective for me to be of much usefulness to you in this topic.
Sorry.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Maybe none is needed. as I said, it wasn't a criticism. Just an observation.
Wow, I go away for a few days and the thread has certainly taken a right turn onto a new path. Sex. I suppose men and women Buddhists do have (in general, of course) different attitudes about that particular Precept and men in particular are afraid it will cut into their sex life (such as it is). The honest attitude I see repeated by fellow men is, "But I like sex. I mean I really, really like it. I like fantasizing about it, too. Why do I have to give that up? Did I mention I like sex?"
I never really thought about how that sounds to women Buddhists. I know they've read in the Suttas about how they're blamed at the beginning for tempting the Arahants with their sexy bodies into lustful thoughts. Even these enlightened disciples of the Buddha struggled with keeping their pants zipped, so to speak. I always pictured the women in town they meet on their begging route giggling as they tease the monks because they know about the vow of chastity.
So is there a different area that women Buddhists struggle with more than men? The only one I can think of is the obvious one of women not being treated as equal to men in the temples or even in Buddha's first Sangha. I have seen women on the forum new to Buddhism struggle with the very real discrimination in a supposedly enlightened religion, but men tend to take it as just the reality of the world.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited August 2016
@Cinorjer said:
Wow, I go away for a few days and the thread has certainly taken a right turn onto a new path. Sex.
LOL!!
I suppose men and women Buddhists do have (in general, of course) different attitudes about that particular Precept and men in particular are afraid it will cut into their sex life (such as it is). The honest attitude I see repeated by fellow men is, "But I like sex. I mean I really, really like it. I like fantasizing about it, too. Why do I have to give that up? Did I mention I like sex?"
I think actually that's a worthwhile point to consider. Sex seems to matter a lot more to men, in its suspension or abstinence, than it does to women....? Maybe?
I never really thought about how that sounds to women Buddhists. I know they've read in the Suttas about how they're blamed at the beginning for tempting the Arahants with their sexy bodies into lustful thoughts. Even these enlightened disciples of the Buddha struggled with keeping their pants zipped, so to speak. I always pictured the women in town they meet on their begging route giggling as they tease the monks because they know about the vow of chastity.
I think the general argument against such male sentiments was the same then, as it is today: "Why, when men cannot suppress lewd thoughts, comments and actions, does it always become OUR fault that they can't control themselves?"
So is there a different area that women Buddhists struggle with more than men? The only one I can think of is the obvious one of women not being treated as equal to men in the temples or even in Buddha's first Sangha. I have seen women on the forum new to Buddhism struggle with the very real discrimination in a supposedly enlightened religion, but men tend to take it as just the reality of the world.
That's a very good point, except that there are many men supporting women and joining the ranks of assenters, protesting alongside women, that they absolutely SHOULD be equal in every way. Yes, it is singularly a feminine issue. But it's also an indication of the kind of discrimination women, everywhere have been subjected to, and still are.
But I honestly brought it up as a mere point of curious interest.
The main topic of this thread was to question why newbuddhist is so good at enrolling and keeping such a high number of female members, in comparison to other forums.
Bhante Sujato mentioned a thread he took this discussion to, with somewhat sobering, and somewhat negative consequences.
I think even when they don't mean to be, men can be sexist in their attitude... And this is a problem some women have, in attempting to point it out to guys. Because men who speak in sexist terms without seeing the terms are sexist are unlikely to either see or accept that what they are saying is sexist, because of a "Well, if you want to take it that way, you're just being a typical feminist."
remember: these are not necessarily deliberately sexist remarks. They're merely thoughtless foot-in-mouth speak-before-you-think moments.... But they're indicative of a subliminal attitude....
@federica I have to agree with you there. My own enlightenment about the struggles of women in male dominated societies was long and painful at times. And it's the thoughtless actions and words that seem normal and harmless to us men that point out we have far to go. I can't say I am immune to falling into old habits, but maybe I'm getting there.
In my case, I might have been a bit dismissive on the forums when someone asks where the enlightened women Buddhists are in the sutras. It's not a problem for me because I can identify with the monks as fellow men. But I hope we don't let guys here try to say it's because women aren't as capable or that Buddha didn't want women to hold equal places in the Sangha.
I think when men do bring it up it reminds us women just how often men do think about it, and how important it is to them. In the climate we live in sometimes, that realization can be a little concerning because it helps add to the big picture of sex and how women are treated over it. It sometimes leaves us feeling like we always have to be on the watch for men who seem to think about sex so much that we're only a means to an end rather than a partner in it.
I think of the men I know, they are more interested in the frequency of sex. That most of them really do just want to get off. And they will do it as often as they possibly can because it feels good. Not that sex doesn't feel good to women, but we are often looking for something else out of it and don't want to feel like we are just what allows the guy to get off. Quality over quantity. The number of men I see post memes with the theme of "don't care, had sex!" is astounding. I know memes aren't representative of real life, lol, but the type of guys and the number of them posting such things leads me to believe there is an element of truth in it. They don't care what a lot of the other factors are, as long as they had sex. And these are the men who are in long term, happy, loving relationships.
I have a lot of male friends, and from pastors to medical professionals to skateboarders and even a couple of homeless guys-sex is at the forefront A LOT, around the clock. Every single male friend I have complains that he does not get enough sex from his partner, even if they have sex frequently. It's like most men cannot get enough and sometimes that idea is scary to women.
I am part of a large running group on FB, and the number of women who carry mace or weapons because they fear sexual attacks is astounding. Women are terrified of running across a man alone when they are running, to the point they have a weapon concealed in their sleeve or hand as man passes them. Many carry guns. Several men in the group are afraid to run across lone women on runs because of this. They won't want to scare them and end up attacked. It's a strange dynamic. But there are a lot of women who truly live in fear of being randomly attacked (at least 3 female runners in the last 10 days have been attacked, raped, and killed). And even though we might realize that most men don't do this kind of thing, knowing how much men think and talk about sex makes us cautious, and even afraid. Because even if we know it's not right, we will generalize to assume a lot of men will take the chance to take sex from us if they want to. And then they won't even go to jail for it.
When men talk about how much they love sex, it puts us on alert, basically.
Disclaimer: This is a very generalized post. There are of course men who are different, as well as women. It is not meant to cover the whole of human sexuality and only a very generalized observation.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@Kerome said: I expect there will be other topics which are mostly started by women
Name one topic that is predominantly insistently, frequently and habitually begun by women. Alone.
If you look on YouTube, you will find many thousands of video topics on make-up which are started and populated almost exclusively by women. Similarly on Instagram there are many posters specialising in bags, shopping and so on. On mental health forums, self harm topics and eating disorder topics are almost entirely by women. There are many print magazines and websites which are almost exclusively by women, for women. That implies to me the thought exists, even though it may not be expressed on the New Buddhist forum.
It is forum-specific, topics on sex are rarely seen on a technical forum, but do come up on a Buddhist one. But I am not at all bothered by these things, it's just a facet of life. As @Steve_B said earlier, vive la differance.
I find @Sujato's original problem much more to the point, how do you encourage female participation in forums? I think besides providing women moderators to help steer the community, good solutions for harassment and a place for banter and interaction, also women are more interested in the stories behind posters... Perhaps a forum could encourage posters to disclose more of themselves in their profiles.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@karasti said: ... When men talk about how much they love sex, it puts us on alert, basically.
The whole post is very insightful, but this point in particular caught my attention and made me realise that actually, there's a lot of truth in it.
I had to think about this for a moment: And I just came up with a couple of conclusions, which I'm just putting out as personal perspective. I'm not suggesting I am right or that others agree with me ...
One, it reinforces the objectification of women, because when men discuss sex and porn, in most cases (but by no means all, It's not exclusive) it has a lot to do with the imagination, and maybe without realising it (in their desire to reduce their sexual impulses), they relegate women to a secondary role.
Although to be fair, I have been involved in the odd discussion where men found their own attitudes in the objectification of women, something they felt ashamed of.
Secondly, yes; I think women may feel intimidated by the subject. And I cannot once remember a male member involved in any discussion come a point where he - or other men - felt it appropriate to apologise to fellow women members for their discussion and comments regarding their sexual excess, for want of a better phrase...
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Kerome said: If you look on YouTube, you will find many thousands of video topics on make-up which are started and populated almost exclusively by women. Similarly on Instagram there are many posters specialising in bags, shopping and so on. On mental health forums, self harm topics and eating disorder topics are almost entirely by women. There are many print magazines and websites which are almost exclusively by women, for women. That implies to me the thought exists, even though it may not be expressed on the New Buddhist forum.
But I am not at all bothered by these things, it's just a facet of life. As @Steve_B said earlier, vive la differance.
I take some of your points, particularly the matter highlighted by me, in bold above. But I can't help feeling you're still missing my point somewhat. We're talking specifically, at the moment, about the sexual aspect of forum participation, and how men and women view the aspect of sexual addiction, abstinence, celibacy, and porn, on different levels. Forums for women by women, are not what I'm talking about. At all. And I'm not really sure what it says about women, their circumstances or coping mechanisms, when the discussion on mental health forums is dominated by them...
I find @Sujato's original problem much more to the point, how do you encourage female participation in forums? I think besides providing women moderators to help steer the community, good solutions for harassment and a place for banter and interaction, also women are more interested in the stories behind posters... Perhaps a forum could encourage posters to disclose more of themselves in their profiles.
I completely disagree. No forum would request that. It's a question of Privacy, discretion and data protection. There are some who post on forums who require, if not insist, on anonymity...Some people would hate to be found. And what right does a forum administrator have to encourage anyone to be more open?
No, that may seem a good idea on paper, but in practise, such encouragement would probably actually discourage membership....
Comments
Blasted naturists! The Buddha was an English gentleman and would never have encouraged such lewd behaviour.
![](https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M52d414032a49dc5943680a3156df399fo2&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300"")
Here is an image of the Buddha from the lost suttas of the Spiny Nikaya:
Ugh! Not my favourite person at the best of times.... I think he is portraying general Gordon, here, who himself was far from popular 'with the natives'... Plus he is/was so pro-gun lobby that it shamed me to listen to him spout aggressive and blinkered rhetoric on Americans and their right to bear arms.... But we'll let that go...
(See how topics meander...?!)
In contrast with suttacentral the main thing that stands out to me about this forum is its accessibility of the content and the breadth of the topics. Here almost anything Buddhist-related is welcome, and a lot of personal development as well. If I was looking for a forum to just discuss the sutta's I would consider his side, but I think you would find relatively fewer people who would have the deep knowledge of Buddhism to contribute, and a lot of those will be in the Far East and speaking Thai or Korean or Japanese.
It does make me wonder whether there isn't room for a meta community of English speaking Buddhist forums. A super-forum organisation made of different individual forums focussed on different facets of Buddhism
Well said.
The Buddha being all knowing (allegedly) was clearly aware he would be part of the EU future British Empire. Also he was not sky clad like the Jains, as this would scare the horses, much as the Northern kilt wearing tribes of EU Scottishland are known to do.
Not only was the Buddha part British, Greek, Nepalese and dream elephant. He was also green fingered/footed as a baby.
I think the light and easy environment means a lot. It means we get to know each other. We've experienced death, birth, birthdays...shared in life events. That's what creates the environment of trust and that you feel you know each other....which then leads to an environment that's open to share and then open to receive advice and guidance from each other. You have to put in the time and attention to get to know people and their ways. We laugh together and praise each other, but have enough of a personal knowledge and experience of each other to 'check' each other in a productive way. A 'school' environment doesn't exactly give the feel of warmth and togetherness...you know? I think we're pretty good as a group bringing Buddhism into everything....from the small...to the huge things in life. A forum should be a group of friends that foster and feed the main thing we have in common...Buddhism. Ways to practice....ways to apply the approach of Buddhism.
Also, as women...we need to take responsibility for participating. You can't be a wallflower and then complain no one is asking you to dance. Put yourself out there....watch out for crazy guys and learn how to socially read people. If some guy keeps hitting you up on PM...ignore his butt!! Don't let anyone run you away from your own path and intentions. Pm is good for more private subjects...but this is a group! Most conversations should take place on board. That cuts down on he-say, she-say...and lends the support and protection of the group. We help each other out pretty quick when we see someone stepping on toes or being extra.
Admittedly there are some doubts about the authenticity of the Spiny Nikaya. Textual analysis by scholars has revealed some dubious references to "Neapolitan ice-cream" and "Lawrence of Arabia", which they say must have been added in later. But scholars are not always right.
Hey guys,
Thanks to Federica for helping out with this, and to Jayantha for getting us in touch. I have read all your comments and really appreciate them.
Just a couple of responses. Someone asked whether the blokes' forums had had a confab to figure out why women don't like them. Lol, no. I just chatted with a couple of the women who do use the site and wondered whether we could do anything to make it friendlier.
I posted a similar question at the meta site for our forum software, fondly imagining it was something that had been discussed and that I might get some help. You can see this here if you're interested. Suffice to say that the tech word is not getting over its gender issues any time soon.
As to what we're doing, obviously it has a more scholarly focus, and doesn't aim to replicate a more informal social forum like this one: there's no need! our community has been pretty good on the whole, so it's not like I'm seeing a huge problem. But I would like to encourage people, especially women, who are more beginners to jump in.
One possibility is to maybe start a new category, similar to your "general banter", to give people a space for more informal chat.
Sounds like a good idea!
It's up to the women to assert themselves scholarly and know the environment they are choosing to be in. Are they feeling intimated? Why? If they are choosing this environment, are they prepared to be in the ring? Do they know their book stuff and are able to debate/clap back with people who are? Or are they just there to get info from others? If so...I think questioning and talking things out should be encouraged. For example...Does anyone have a different take on this writing? How could this sutta/sutra be applied to householders? Maybe expanding on writings to reach a broader audience/different people. It has to be applicable for people to feel fed and willing to feed others.
If I may be so bold, it's not so much the knowledge, or lack of it, that I think concerns many women, it's that unfortunately, they have encountered a great deal of not-so-covert prejudice, sexism and patronising condescension.
If we are brutally honest (and it pains me to say it), Buddhism has sexist elements to it, as has any organised Religion, and far from being open to change and adaptation, some quarters are emphatic on the exclusion of women from some areas of practice. Sadly, this is occasionally reflected in the attitudes of male forum participants, be they laypeople or the ordained. I have been "victim" of such attitudes and frankly, it stinks.
I can think of three separate incidents where I had an acrid and bitter dose of sexist discrimination on other Buddhist Forums. I'm not going to elaborate on them here, suffice to say, they left a nasty taste in my mouth. Which is why, hitherto, I have not ventured onto any other Buddhist forum for a very long while....
They do seem a little hidebound, @Sujato . But there were a few interesting things that came out of it. Forums that have a female moderating presence seem to do better - I am on another forum where this is true as well - and technical forums seem to do worse.
Also I think women look for the presence of other women, as a form of 'social validation', that they will be able to chat freely, cope with potential harassment issues and so on. I'm sure you probably have all the right tools as part of your software, like ignore features and blocking people.
I think women do enjoy a social, browsing-the-content kind of style more than a hunt-for-content, search directed experience. But having women involved in moderation and creation of the site will immediately bring these kind of issues to the fore.
I took a look at that thread and basically, my first thought was "I really need to come on and reply here" followed a little later by "These guys don't get it." So I abandoned the idea.
Which doesn't surprise me, because a man making sexist prejudicial remarks believing himself to be entirely logical and right - will not get that he's making sexist prejudicial remarks.
Incidentally, I don't think they know that they don't know.
This level of unconscious bias pales into insignificance, compared to what I put up with (as mentioned in my previous post).
It is, whether I like it or not, intimidating to observe and realize a place is full of men. I would be less likely to participate in such a place, not out of fear but out of a lacking collective group to share with. Men and women (generally speaking) approach a lot of things differently, and when you are a minority in number in a group, and you share a very different way of seeing or doing things, you are often met with some hostility for upsetting the male applecart. There are, sadly, still a lot of men who are really uncomfortable having their views challenged by women. Regardless of the forum or topic, there is a huge lack of understanding on the part of many men, of the world women live in that has largely been created and is being upheld by them. I am in some terrific running and yoga groups, and the same issues come up.
The hard part is when women stand up and take a bit of a leadership role to discussing these things, they are shut down hard. So many female voices in the internet world have been closed down after they or their children have been horribly threatened and made to feel unsafe for sharing their views. I'm not sure how to help people move past that. We sit in the background until we are sure we are safe, and the minute we don't feel safe, we are gone. It's just not worth the risk with the information some people can so quickly find out about you.
I tend to read people pretty well, and can get a pretty good feel of a place and its inhabitants pretty quickly. Just as you can you walk into a building or a room and feel a huge change, online rooms are no different. Some have a very open, airy, welcoming feel, and some do not. I simply stay away from all the rest. It would be, I think, pretty hard to open a forum to feeling warm and welcoming without allowing general banter between the members. I think @Vastmind hit the nail on the head. I need that trust if I am going to share things with people, and if it's not there and there is no way to develop it, I have no interest. I have to have a vested interest in the people to want to participate in discussion with them, and I have to be able to relate it to real world stuff. Suttras do me no good whatsoever if I can't apply them to living my daily life. I have zero interest in studying words just to study them.
What I like about this place is no one has to be any thing. Male and Female included.
@Sujato That was the last place I'd have advised to start that discussion. Ask a site like FeverBee for community management advice.
I actually work for a Discourse competitor; we build the software running this forum. I couldn't agree with you more. Our company is fairly isolated from the day-to-day of Silicon Valley and its culture. Many tech folks would see this as a disadvantage; we definitely do not.
Without being too specific, could you say a bit more about this? It might be helpful to a wider audience.
I should add a footnote that if you ever feel you've received an inappropriate private message, you can simply add Federica or myself to the conversation directly, or quote it to us. I can selectively pull from the database to confirm if necessary. I go out of my way to avoid ever reading private messages (and don't grant anyone else the ability to do so), but I will absolutely do it in the case of abuse.
2 were on esangha. So that's history, and I'm quite happy to elaborate on this:
One: I attempted to join a thread where rebirth was being discussed, and the matter of reincarnation as a distinction, arose.
I began to discuss that in Theravada, such a phenomenon was not recognised as a process, (remember this was years ago) and that reincarnation was, as far as I knew, a Tibetan Buddhist concept. I was rounded on by two other (male) members, one from each tradition and the gist of their discussion was that I was only a female, had little or no right to comment if I wasn't a follower of Mahayana, and besides which, I should instead devote myself to silent study of Theravada texts, and not speak, because women would be the ruin of the Dhamma, if they were allowed to voice an opinion too frequently. (This happened over the space of around 25 posts or so, therefore please understand I am condensing....)
The second issue was when there was a clear woman-bashing thread, and I attempted to be a smartass, and give as good as I got. Of course, they cleverly disguised their woman bashing by selectively quoting passages of the Sutras/suttas and claiming that in Buddhist terms there was no question of our stupidity or inferiority. When I complained, and flagged the posts, I was banned for inciting arguments and being inflammatory in my attitude.
The third incident is only slightly more recent, and I was - I admit - in heated discussion with a male member who I believe was now ordained, who made certain deprecating remarks about women, their un predictable temperaments, volatile natures and distracting ways. He was quite abrupt and insulting, and I tried to indicate that this bias against women in Theravada was misplaced, ordination should be permitted and that men had had it their way for far too long.
A Moderator closed me down, deleted my posts and via PM, explained that the person in question had known abuse from his spouse, had suffered some injury at her hands, and that therefore his attitude was understandable.
I fired off a few home-truths, including an account of some very traumatic experiences of my own, to which he responded that, paraphrasing, his situation trumped mine, because it was far rarer, and therefore more traumatic for a man to suffer domestic violence than a woman. Women were more used to such things, and were accustomed to dealing with them.
I kid you not.
Both forums have/had issues regarding Moderation, most - if not all of which - was/is conducted by male moderators only. Esangha's ultimate demise was as a result of their Moderating methods. But that does not mean or imply that sexism played a role, or prominent part.
It seems a bit chicken and egg, Bhante, and I smiled at a comment you made: "All I know so far is that here, in a forum where 98% of the discussion is by men, we've now had three men explain why gender issues are not relevant."
I read through the thread @Sujato shared the link to and I'm not sure why but I'm consistently surprised at how often someone is told "There is a problem, how can we solve it?" and their response is "Huh? There is no problem." Most women will tell you there is a problem. All around us. A big problem. To be told "There is not" is just yet another way some men continue to relegate women into the land of unimportance.
I am all for a world where gender doesn't matter. Where we can express whatever we want of ourselves any given day and no get flack for it. But we aren't in that world yet and for others to say things like "There is no gender" is just yet another way to discount that there is a problem. I might be fine with a world where the gender lines are blurred or don't exist. But most people are not and regardless of our beliefs we still have to live in this world.
The one plus I see is how much this discussion is at the forefront. I was pleased to see the internet smackdown this week when female Olympians were reduced to the men behind them. Yet there are still a lot of men who read those headlines and can't see a problem.
I guess it doesn't really matter if we are talking Buddhism or the tech world, or gaming, or sports, or work or whatever. The bottom line is there is a problem. The discussion helps. That is good, it helps at least some people see they have been wrong and to revisit the way they think and speak and act. But as with most things, it comes down to how individuals raise their children and what each of us can do to improve our households, our schools, our communities so when people spread out into the world, that message improves.
Your journey of devotion and resulting insights will no doubt be of interest and use - perhaps also, in this give and take, there shall arise insights that are applicable to your journey.
On behalf of the BU ( Booster Union ), I would like to say that most of us are well-intentioned ( though easily bored ) and just trying to liven things up a bit.
True!
@federica :
I just don't even … like, how is it possible for thoughts like this to even assemble themselves in a human brain?
In terms of severity, sure; but I'm not sure that the overall damage from simple ignorance isn't even worse.
For me, all this relates to my experience in trying to support ordination for women. My experience was that there are a small minority of monks who are messed up about women, truly misogynistic. The vast majority were not, but they were blind to the issues and stood up for their mates.
This isn't just an absence; it's like the guys on the meta.discourse thread who say that coding is "neutral". Or, as Buddhists like to say, that's just "the way it is".
This "neutrality" enables all kinds of harmful impulses. It's what I saw in the Sangha; and in much bigger and more virulent forms, it's what's made twitter into a honeypot for assholes.
A very strange response. Clearly it would be good if there were more female mods on these forums, though it's a bit chicken and egg with forums which few women visit.
@SpinyNorman if I understood correctly, the mods in @Sujatos forum are all women. If true, that's a bit odd that a forum with so little female participation would monitor its mostly male base with nothing but women. Balance is always called for, I think. Unless of course the only people who expressed interest were the women.
Oh, I hadn't realised that. But yes, balance is always good.
Bit of a digression here. Gender isn't binary; there are more than two of these things! I'm genderqueer/genderneutral and prefer gender neutral pronouns (ey/em, they/them, even it/its). I have gender dysphoria about my body and how it should be, however that dysphoria isn't pointed to either male or female forms. When I get to save some money, I'm going to get tested because I think I'm intersex (possessing different chromosomes than simply XX and XY).
ANYWAY, I'm AFAB -- Assigned Female At Birth. So people usually refer to me as a woman in real life (it's hard to convince people to do otherwise when you've got an hourglass frame).
In conclusion, I don't feel like there's any sort of gender barrier in the conversations here, is all I can say. Shrug
We are all human and we all have faults & flaws ( well @lobster is the exception to this rule on both counts... @lobsters have shells & claws
) ...
) ...
No doubt when it comes to gender bias, one's conditioning has a lot to answer for.. However I guess if one is practising the Dharma correctly there would be no discrimination ( Well apart from discriminating wisdom that is
But as we all know...Egos being egos more often than not may have their own hidden a gender.... (Pun intended)
I read that at first as ANYWAY, I'm FAB to which I would say yes, yes you are
_ /\ _
SUCH a dad joke!
One thing I had noticed which seems to be a very singular 'male' problem, is that at some point or another the discussion of Porn, masturbation and the suppression of sexual impulses is brought up. I think every forum I've ever belonged to has had at least one thread at any one time focusing on the issue of Male Sexual desire, and how to control/eliminate it.
Men in Buddhism obviously see this as a burning issue, which I think only serves to highlight just how influential the Porn industry is, and how fixated some men seem to be.
This isn't a criticism; it's an observation.
Given how Buddhism does point out that mastering the sexual impulse is a requirement, it's something that's bound to come up. But it's one of a range of obvious topics... Movie violence, vegetarianism, killing insects and pests are just a few of the others. I'm not sure why one would say it's a particular fixation?
Although I do have to say some men are so over-the-top attached to sexual behaviour that it can be a problem, bothering female members of forums to the point of idiocy. I think it is disrespectful.
Fortunately we don't seem to have many members here who are interested in prawn movies.
Because it's the only area where only one gender brings it up. Men and women instigate discussions about violence, vegetarianism, killing insects and pests. Almost exclusively, it's men who discuss problems regarding sexual impulse. I honestly don't recall, in all my years of frequenting Buddhist forums anywhere, a woman beginning a thread on controlling female sexual impulses.
I'm not so much bothered as to perplexed as to why it should be such a huge problem for men, and such an insignificant one for women.
I've heard it said that women attach more to emotion and men attach more to the sexual drive, which to me makes a lot of sense. The genders behave differently in a number of respects - approaches to social situations, shopping, home-making - so is it not reasonable that in religion too there might be differences? In many ways the search for enlightenment is a kind of exploration of the mind, and men and women do tend to think differently.
I expect there will be other topics which are mostly started by women
Mes's sexual system is rather simple, and easily triggered, and men generally have a strong sex drive. So it is not surprising that the sex facet is never far from the surface. But it would never occur to me that my sexuality is a 'problem ' or that it has any impact on whether I pursue Buddhism, bocci ball, or birdwatching.
My wife seems incapable of leaving the house, for any reason whatsoever, without first attending to her makeup and hair. This is in no way a 'problem.' It's just how she functions. It certainly is not how I function. Vive la differance.
Women seem to keep close to the surface a general awareness of personal safety and physical appearance, which I think men are more typically quite oblivious to. But the fact that these are insignificant for men has no bearing whatever on whether or how women pursue Buddhism. Why then should women's' lower sex drive be seen as a problem that men have, or anything to do with Buddhism?
Men and women simply have ways in which they are different.
Name one topic that is predominantly insistently, frequently and habitually begun by women. Alone.
I'm not the one making it into a problem. Men are.
Men seem to believe it's an impact on their practice.
Not any that I've met. But we all travel in different circles and have different experiences, so all's fair.
But in any event, it seems unperplexing that different people have a spectrum of experiences with different manifestations of our makeups. I have no difficulty with suppressing rage, because I don't generally experience any. There definitely exist those who do, though, and I find it not at all perplexing if they have trouble suppressing it or if they bring it up in conversation.
You're missing the point.
This isn't a case of different people having a spectrum of experiences, and to use your example, women also have anger issues.
My point is that on every Buddhist forum I have been on, there seems to be a regular occurrence of a discussion at one point or another, on the manifestation of sexual desire, its suppression, or the use of porn, and this subject matter is exclusively put forward by men alone. Consistently.
That's what I find perplexing. It seems to be a singularly male issue, frequently brought up as a problem, by men, alone.
It's just odd that women do not have any issue with this side of their persona, regardless of how many women frequent the particular forum....
Yes, I do see that you are perplexed. But I don't seem to have enough commonality with you in vocabulary or perspective for me to be of much usefulness to you in this topic.
Sorry.
Maybe none is needed. as I said, it wasn't a criticism. Just an observation.
Wow, I go away for a few days and the thread has certainly taken a right turn onto a new path. Sex. I suppose men and women Buddhists do have (in general, of course) different attitudes about that particular Precept and men in particular are afraid it will cut into their sex life (such as it is). The honest attitude I see repeated by fellow men is, "But I like sex. I mean I really, really like it. I like fantasizing about it, too. Why do I have to give that up? Did I mention I like sex?"
I never really thought about how that sounds to women Buddhists. I know they've read in the Suttas about how they're blamed at the beginning for tempting the Arahants with their sexy bodies into lustful thoughts. Even these enlightened disciples of the Buddha struggled with keeping their pants zipped, so to speak. I always pictured the women in town they meet on their begging route giggling as they tease the monks because they know about the vow of chastity.
So is there a different area that women Buddhists struggle with more than men? The only one I can think of is the obvious one of women not being treated as equal to men in the temples or even in Buddha's first Sangha. I have seen women on the forum new to Buddhism struggle with the very real discrimination in a supposedly enlightened religion, but men tend to take it as just the reality of the world.
LOL!!
I think actually that's a worthwhile point to consider. Sex seems to matter a lot more to men, in its suspension or abstinence, than it does to women....? Maybe?
I think the general argument against such male sentiments was the same then, as it is today: "Why, when men cannot suppress lewd thoughts, comments and actions, does it always become OUR fault that they can't control themselves?"
That's a very good point, except that there are many men supporting women and joining the ranks of assenters, protesting alongside women, that they absolutely SHOULD be equal in every way. Yes, it is singularly a feminine issue. But it's also an indication of the kind of discrimination women, everywhere have been subjected to, and still are.
But I honestly brought it up as a mere point of curious interest.
The main topic of this thread was to question why newbuddhist is so good at enrolling and keeping such a high number of female members, in comparison to other forums.
Bhante Sujato mentioned a thread he took this discussion to, with somewhat sobering, and somewhat negative consequences.
I think even when they don't mean to be, men can be sexist in their attitude... And this is a problem some women have, in attempting to point it out to guys. Because men who speak in sexist terms without seeing the terms are sexist are unlikely to either see or accept that what they are saying is sexist, because of a "Well, if you want to take it that way, you're just being a typical feminist."
Which is ironic, really...
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/health-fitness/news/a62634/sexist-moments-2016-rio-olympics/
And this, too...
https://www.buzzfeed.com/gracespelman/and-the-gold-medal-in-mansplaining-goes-to-this-guy?utm_term=.eorwNYRYk#.cw0Lg2m24
remember: these are not necessarily deliberately sexist remarks. They're merely thoughtless foot-in-mouth speak-before-you-think moments.... But they're indicative of a subliminal attitude....
@federica I have to agree with you there. My own enlightenment about the struggles of women in male dominated societies was long and painful at times. And it's the thoughtless actions and words that seem normal and harmless to us men that point out we have far to go. I can't say I am immune to falling into old habits, but maybe I'm getting there.
In my case, I might have been a bit dismissive on the forums when someone asks where the enlightened women Buddhists are in the sutras. It's not a problem for me because I can identify with the monks as fellow men. But I hope we don't let guys here try to say it's because women aren't as capable or that Buddha didn't want women to hold equal places in the Sangha.
I think when men do bring it up it reminds us women just how often men do think about it, and how important it is to them. In the climate we live in sometimes, that realization can be a little concerning because it helps add to the big picture of sex and how women are treated over it. It sometimes leaves us feeling like we always have to be on the watch for men who seem to think about sex so much that we're only a means to an end rather than a partner in it.
I think of the men I know, they are more interested in the frequency of sex. That most of them really do just want to get off. And they will do it as often as they possibly can because it feels good. Not that sex doesn't feel good to women, but we are often looking for something else out of it and don't want to feel like we are just what allows the guy to get off. Quality over quantity. The number of men I see post memes with the theme of "don't care, had sex!" is astounding. I know memes aren't representative of real life, lol, but the type of guys and the number of them posting such things leads me to believe there is an element of truth in it. They don't care what a lot of the other factors are, as long as they had sex. And these are the men who are in long term, happy, loving relationships.
I have a lot of male friends, and from pastors to medical professionals to skateboarders and even a couple of homeless guys-sex is at the forefront A LOT, around the clock. Every single male friend I have complains that he does not get enough sex from his partner, even if they have sex frequently. It's like most men cannot get enough and sometimes that idea is scary to women.
I am part of a large running group on FB, and the number of women who carry mace or weapons because they fear sexual attacks is astounding. Women are terrified of running across a man alone when they are running, to the point they have a weapon concealed in their sleeve or hand as man passes them. Many carry guns. Several men in the group are afraid to run across lone women on runs because of this. They won't want to scare them and end up attacked. It's a strange dynamic. But there are a lot of women who truly live in fear of being randomly attacked (at least 3 female runners in the last 10 days have been attacked, raped, and killed). And even though we might realize that most men don't do this kind of thing, knowing how much men think and talk about sex makes us cautious, and even afraid. Because even if we know it's not right, we will generalize to assume a lot of men will take the chance to take sex from us if they want to. And then they won't even go to jail for it.
When men talk about how much they love sex, it puts us on alert, basically.
Disclaimer: This is a very generalized post. There are of course men who are different, as well as women. It is not meant to cover the whole of human sexuality and only a very generalized observation.
If you look on YouTube, you will find many thousands of video topics on make-up which are started and populated almost exclusively by women. Similarly on Instagram there are many posters specialising in bags, shopping and so on. On mental health forums, self harm topics and eating disorder topics are almost entirely by women. There are many print magazines and websites which are almost exclusively by women, for women. That implies to me the thought exists, even though it may not be expressed on the New Buddhist forum.
It is forum-specific, topics on sex are rarely seen on a technical forum, but do come up on a Buddhist one. But I am not at all bothered by these things, it's just a facet of life. As @Steve_B said earlier, vive la differance.
I find @Sujato's original problem much more to the point, how do you encourage female participation in forums? I think besides providing women moderators to help steer the community, good solutions for harassment and a place for banter and interaction, also women are more interested in the stories behind posters... Perhaps a forum could encourage posters to disclose more of themselves in their profiles.
The whole post is very insightful, but this point in particular caught my attention and made me realise that actually, there's a lot of truth in it.
I had to think about this for a moment: And I just came up with a couple of conclusions, which I'm just putting out as personal perspective. I'm not suggesting I am right or that others agree with me ...
One, it reinforces the objectification of women, because when men discuss sex and porn, in most cases (but by no means all, It's not exclusive) it has a lot to do with the imagination, and maybe without realising it (in their desire to reduce their sexual impulses), they relegate women to a secondary role.
Although to be fair, I have been involved in the odd discussion where men found their own attitudes in the objectification of women, something they felt ashamed of.
Secondly, yes; I think women may feel intimidated by the subject. And I cannot once remember a male member involved in any discussion come a point where he - or other men - felt it appropriate to apologise to fellow women members for their discussion and comments regarding their sexual excess, for want of a better phrase...
I take some of your points, particularly the matter highlighted by me, in bold above. But I can't help feeling you're still missing my point somewhat. We're talking specifically, at the moment, about the sexual aspect of forum participation, and how men and women view the aspect of sexual addiction, abstinence, celibacy, and porn, on different levels. Forums for women by women, are not what I'm talking about. At all. And I'm not really sure what it says about women, their circumstances or coping mechanisms, when the discussion on mental health forums is dominated by them...
I completely disagree. No forum would request that. It's a question of Privacy, discretion and data protection. There are some who post on forums who require, if not insist, on anonymity...Some people would hate to be found. And what right does a forum administrator have to encourage anyone to be more open?
No, that may seem a good idea on paper, but in practise, such encouragement would probably actually discourage membership....