Advice please
Bunks
Australia Veteran
Hello wise Sangha! More advice requested please 
I work with a colleague who is quite difficult at times (the word irascible springs to mind).
Anyway, yesterday he was unnecessarily aggressive toward another colleague of mine and I overheard it. It wasn't really terrible but it was rude and uncalled for.
I got called in to an office by his manager a few moments ago and asked if I would put something in writing to bear witness to what I heard. No pressure - I can choose not to.
I believe they're building up a dossier to possibly get rid of this guy and I am not sure if I am comfortable being part of that. You may remember I had a similar experience last year.
My gut feeling is that I should do it but I am interested to hear others opinions?
Thanks!
Comments
Choose not to. It is the way of the dude, dude.
Does he have a wife and children ?
Could he be having issues on the home front ?
Are you close enough to actually sit down and have a talk with him ?
Oh hang on a minute.
I'm sorry, but the above is totally irrelevant now.
You are overstepping the mark if you take matters into your own hands and speak with him yourself.
Whether he has children, or is having personal problems no longer matters.
The time for looking into this situation in this way, has passed. Such things should have been handled long ago.
The guy has obviously gone a step too far. And management are now dealing with it.
First of all, if you have been asked to put something in writing about the situation, you have a right to seek clarification.
Ask the Manager to what end you are being asked to provide a statement?
Request a reason for this document.
find out whether the person has been warned already, or if it means they will be dismissed or disciplined?
Arm yourself with the information so you can make a clearer choice.
Ultimately, what happens to this man is not entirely within your control.
The Management are the ones making the final decision, and this man's own Kamma is of his making.
But if you've been asked to provide a statement, then frankly, if it's in the hands of management, and it's no longer your decision.
But make sure that what ever decision you make, is based on sound knowledge and well-grounded information.
And remember: if you intend to remain employed by this company, even if this man goes, what you do now, will determine and indicate your cooperation and willingness to support the company and work towards 'the greater good'.
Thank you @federica
@Bunks...
My advice (well it's not advice really) was just what "I" would do in a similar situation, this person is 'suffering' why else would he be behaving in such a manner... I look beyond the unskillful 'behaviour' and at the 'person'.... bearing in mind people can change...
Please note ...This is how I personally would deal with the situation ie, practice the Dharma, but as you can see it's different strokes for different folks you do what you 'feel' is the right thing to do...If it feels right then do it .... with no regrets ......
Metta
Thank you @Shoshin.
It is a difficult one. I will be asking for clarification from his manager as federica suggested.
I am 99% sure he has been spoken to in the past about his aggressive behaviour and I would be a liar if I said there hasn't been times when I wished he wasn't around.
But do I want to possibly contribute to his sacking?
That's not your call any more. And for all you currently know, it may not be sacking they have in mind. But Bullying in the workplace should never be tolerated, and his manner is questionable. It's happened before and finally something is being done about it. You've mentioned it before, you agree this current incident is unacceptable. I'm sorry, sometimes doing the right thing may feel wrong, but it doesn't make it any less right.
This situation cannot be handled without 'tears before bed time'. it would be wonderful if things could be resolved in a 'let's all kiss and make up' way. But Life isn't like that, and we have to take the downs with the ups.
His Fate is out of your hands, and not for you to make any decision on.
But inform yourself, and be open to what you are told.
However, as a person with managerial training myself, you have to separate the emotional from the practical.
Your bosses are viewing this in a business-related manner.
And rightly so.
Yes it is difficult ....Everything we do affects other people...That's Dependent Origination for ya...
However if you're under no pressure to comply with this manager's request...then don't...
If he is going to get the boot, he will get the boot, regardless of whether or not you put the boot in......so to speak ....
I would be inclined to find out more about what your statement will actually be used for, and who will see it. It could be used as part of a disciplinary procedure for example.
If you do decide to make a statement, be careful about the wording and stick to the facts. I used to be a union steward, and these situations can sometimes get complicated.
@shoshin, you have to understand the underlying message in Business-speak. Simply because he's under no pressure, doesn't mean they'll be completely happy if he doesn't comply. This situation is creating ripples in a pond.
And I can tell you, F**k 'Company Loyalty'. Company Loyalty only EVER works one way. Employee---> Company. It never, ever works the other way around. The first and best way for a company to save money, is to get rid of staff, so no company is going to shed tears for long if employees have to take the rough end of the stick.
It's all noted. It's all digested and lodged FFR. (For Future Reference).
Sure, @Bunks can choose to not contribute. And that's fine. Ultimately, the choice is his. He initially felt as if it was the right way to go, and as I have tried to indicate before, sometimes, our Buddhist ideals of Compassion, do not always gel with the situation. We may want to think and feel that acting in a particular way is the right way but sadly, no matter what Bunks sees as the right way, the ultimate decision of what to do with this guy is not - his - choice. He could do "the Right Thing" and the final decision may still not go the way he feels is right.
So I suggest he arms himself with all the information he can, then contribute something purely based on what he heard and saw. Impartial, unemotional, factual. That's it. It is already out of his hands.
Laws and standards of practice may vary from country to country. If this were happening in a large company in my country, it might mean that HR is preparing for a future legal defense against a wrongful termination suit. They could have a checklist of actions, items, documents, etc that they want to make sure they have in place before proceeding to the next step.
It's all about the money. Failure to follow the checklist can make things more expensive for the company. And if there is an HR Investigation under way, you may find that you can't obtain full honest information about the specifics of this case.
I completely agree. Confidentiality is big in situations like this, which is why I said it was really, at this stage, out of @Bunks' hands. But I think he should garner whatever information he can, with an accent on "I realise this may contain elements of confidentiality to which I cannot be party..."
I should add that if their actual intention is to help and guide the employee, they probably wouldn't need a written document from you.
@Bunks This is when ones practice is really important , ie, should be put into practice... a decision should not come from a place of fear...
Meditate on it ....
Metta
I'd also add that not contributing to the company's dossier could be construed as standing in the way of karmic retribution... If the guy has been aggressive on enough cases to be warned or terminated over it, then surely that is just and a lesson he has to learn?
I think it is all very well to be Buddhist and compassionate about it, but at some point the effects of his actions will have to be felt, otherwise he could turn into an unpleasant bully towards the rest of the staff ruining what might otherwise be a good, constructive atmosphere. By contributing to the process you are standing up and letting your voice be heard, and to do otherwise could be construed by some as being intimidated by this man, if they read a full report of the incident.
If you do wish to be more compassionate, you could send a warning to the aggressive guy that things are about to turn serious, although I wouldn't mention that you had been asked to write a statement against him. That might give him a chance to mend his ways.
@Kerome I agree with the majority of your post, but maybe warning him - presumably in secret - may not be wise. That's embroiling yourself (one's self) in a situation that it may not be comfortable to exist in. Providing one aspect of information and withholding other things may come back to kick him in the ass, particularly as one line of discussion might well be "We have received a number of complaints, and statements to the effect that you...."
The guy is going to want to know who contributed. He won't be told, of course, but the resentment will be strong. Remember, a bully like this, in the workplace, perceives such incidents to be everyone else's fault, and not theirs....
I agree, it's a delicate line to walk, but if your conscience is motivating you to do something more than just participate in the company's procedures, then it is an option. Of course by doing so you are potentially paying a price - "no good deed goes unpunished" - but that is the choice you have made. There is also the possibility that your warning may come to be seen or heard about by management, if they snoop the company email. Something else to work around.
I know, it's not easy, is it?
There's another name for what this man is, and that is a bully.
Having been on the receiving end of an aggressive, rude coworker in the past, I can say that most people here are focusing too much on enabling the bully. Both refusing to do your part in recounting, truthfully and accurately, the incident or thinking of warning the guy is only enabling his behavior.
True compassion is realizing the many people he is hurting from having to endure his behavior. If he is not called on it and face the consequences, he will continue to inflict damage on people in the workplace. He's well aware he is a bully. It's been his way of dealing with people since he was a kid being a bully to other kids. They just don't care. You may have compassion for them, but that doesn't mean allowing them to inflict their behavior on others just because they might get in trouble if you say something.
If you wanted to help the man, the time came and went. You could have stepped in when you saw him being rude and a bully and pointed out that wasn't right. If he turned his behavior on you, then so what?
Suppose you saw a man trying to pressure a female coworker for sex in the office before he'd help her do her job. Would you be so reluctant to give an accurate account to the company then because he had a wife and kids who might suffer if he was fired?
^^This^^. All of this and more.
I mentioned earlier that he's a bully. And that Bullying in the workplace should not be tolerated.
All those crying for compassion for this guy are enabling his behaviour and illustrating sympathy for the perpetrator and none for the victims.
Frankly, so what if he has a family and kids to support?
Do we know he isn't this rude, manipulative and abusive to them?
And if he does have a family to support, and he is going to be disciplined, then good. maybe that will teach him that his behaviour is unacceptable, and that it has consequences.
Yes, the more I read this thread, the more I think "Nike." (Just do it.)
I agree with ^^^^^^ @federica. This is a management problem, not (in the first instance) a co-worker problem. If management can't handle it and take responsibility for the staff it allegedly manages, in what way can they be considered effective managers? The Yuppie's whiny response that s/he is 'gathering evidence' and hence handling things is undercut by the presentation and transparency of that evidence.
Part of management's job is to kick a worker's butt when necessary. Finding someone else to do it for you is irresponsible ... or what used to be called sniveling and cowardly.
Business management these days seems increasingly to rely on claiming success without assuming any of the blame. So, for example, unnamed critics claim Joe Blow was acting like a douche bag. And perhaps he was -- but Joe has the right to hear the complaints and know the sources. Second-hand opinion and gossip is not enough.
Why does management want you to make a statement? What have they done to make a statement of their own? To what extent is what management wants is to gauge your willingness to play on the company team ... sometimes called kissing ass?
Just thinking out loud.
@Bunks Same thing happend to me at my job. I was new at my job, and I ended up on the same shift With a guy that hated his job, and his life aswell.
He complained on me all the time, I was new in this job and I also came direct from the School bench so I was a easy target.
I worked With him for a one year, and it didnt end very well, it was actually terrible, but I had endurance.
I just avoided him as best I could, but other colleauges noticed how bad he treathed me. So they told this to our manager, how ugly this person was towards me.
He almost lost his job, If he threats People bad again one more time he will surley loose his job. He is now much more quiet, and threats people better then he did before, because he is afraid for loosing his job.
I also got promoted few months after, and I dont work With him anymore.
So telling how things are to the manager should be a good thing , People With a bad attitude need to be punished to get a wake up call..
Sure sounded like a simple enough question, ey, @Bunks?
I would respond warily if my superiors asked me to put something like that in writing, fer sure, but maybe you could ask them off-hand if they've gotten any input from other co-workers - just to test the waters a bit first. I think I'd agree to put something in writing - probably something as brief as possible - like the comments you said in your op.
Very true, from what I have seen, and well said. I've watched from nearby as a number of people tried to construct a spotless reputation out of a mixture of success and failure, and in the end lasting not-very-long in top jobs.
It's not as simple as that, because the employer also has a duty of care to this person's colleagues. If there is a pattern of bullying by one employee ( say ) they really can't ignore the effect this has on other employees. One way of meeting that responsibility is to institute disciplinary proceedings against the "offender", in which case a request for supporting statements from co-workers could be quite reasonable, particularly if the offender is a barrack-room lawyer type.
If you do have a union rep, a chat with them might be quite useful.
Thanks everyone. No union rep Spiny.
The general concencus here seems to be that I should put something in writing.
I am still not 100% sure what I will do but I will be asking his manager two questions:
Watch this space.
3. What will your statement be used for?
4. Who else will see what you write?
There are more questions, but basically trust your instincts.
It depends on so many things, OP. We have no information to go on, here; we don't know what kind of a job it is, whether he's only difficult toward colleagues, or if his interactions affect students, patients, clients, customers. Does the behavior hinder his work, or the image of the team/department/organization? Is it confined to behind-the-scenes gruffness and rudeness? If the disciplinary action is about giving the colleague a warning, then it sounds like he needs it, and that would be a good thing.
We work in an IT environment and he is a SQL developer.
There is a small element of client contact in his role but I know for a fact the business avoids it as much as possible with him because they are worried about how he might act.
I have thought about it for a while on the train this morning and come to the conclusion that I only have one question for his manager:
Has he been spoken to in the past about his behaviour? If he has (and I am 99% sure this is the case) then I will be putting in writing what I witnessed. As far as I am concerned that means he has had the opportunity to reflect on his behaviour and change it but has chosen not to. That is his choice and he must live with the consequences.
What the business chooses to do with the email is their decision.
Thanks for the input everyone.
No
if you do, you are making a new reason for you to suffer lately
as a person following Buddha's Teaching what you have to do is 'do nothing'
there is Nothing happens without a reason, and that reason also 'we' have made without doubt
in this case 'your' own doing/mistake (you may not know at the moment, but it is for sure) brought the situation you are in now and if you are not wise enough now, the next time it will bring you a worse situation
(if we practice Buddha's Teaching, why can't we apply it to day to day life? that is because we have still doubt about Buddha's Teaching and we are still on the way to understand Buddha's Teaching)
Sorry @upekka , this is completely out of whack. Really. Just so much wrong with it, I don't know where to start.
I can think of one-thousand-and-one reasons why the above advice is probably the poorest you're likely to ever hear, but I'll just say that this is probably the poorest advice you're ever likely to hear.
Don't worry @federica - I would dismiss such advice without a second thought.
As the father of two small children I understand that "compassion" doesn't always mean being nice. Sometimes it means speaking up against poor behaviour that is causing suffering for many people.
So @upekka, are you honestly telling me that you would stand by and let someone harrass, bully and intimidate others without speaking out against it? Do you think that is what the Buddha would have done?
I'd also make sure this is all very confidential.
Yes, you'll be helping get rid of a bad egg but how will the other eggs perceive it?
Lunch could get lonely depending on the sort that work with you.
Otherwise, I'd write it up.
I should think if the other eggs have been victims of the bad egg, then they'll be eggstremely happy someone's thought outside the box.
(sorry.
)
@Bunks - I think if I were involved in this situation, I would wish to first see the totality of the evidence in the matter.
In terms of a complaint, the account between the perpetrator and victim are sufficient in the absence of a denial of a particular circumstance.
If such a denial were present and this did not conform with my first hand observation then I would put forward the factual statement of the first hand observation.
It's all good @David - trust me! There'll be no one in this office upset if he is dismissed (and that is still an "if" at this stage).
I was put in a similar situation a year or two ago when a colleague made the statement "If I had a gun I would bring it in and shoot her" about someone in the office. I made it clear to him that I found what he said offensive. When he repeated it several months later I felt I had no choice but to raise it with management. I was asked to put my statement in writing which I did. Turns out he had been warned numerous times about his intimidating behaviour. He was dismissed a couple of days later.
If I was going to be shunned by my colleagues it would have already happened.
Thanks @Zero - I have already stated the decision I have made above.
Appreciate your advice though.
I can only knowledgeably comment as related to work environments I've personally been in. I have never worked in Australia, or for an Australian company. But what you are describing would certainly not have taken place in any of the US-based companies I've worked in the last few decades. Individual "bad actor" employees are counseled and otherwise "managed" but these actions are held in the strictest confidence, to protect the privacy of the employee involved. Input would not be actively solicited from coworkers in that circumstance (unless there is individual inter-employee conflict -- then both parties would be queried). I realize this may not be at all what you'd wish, especially considering the deleterious impact a bad actor can have on the collective work environment, but it is in fact quite a standard practice here.
In any event, Bunks appears at peace with his decision. I would be, too. If workplace cultures are broadly comparable, there probably has been considerable private effort already invested in corrective actions. This last outburst may have signaled that the efforts were unfortunately not successful, and the employee in question now very likely has a significant adverse action in his very near future. And hopefully everyone in the office can then take a deep breath and move on.
I spoke briefly this morning to a manager (not his manager but another) who told me he has been spoken to "many, many times. Far too many times" about his behaviour.
They have now made the decision to accept written statements and formally warn him (as they should have done some time ago according to this manager).
that is what you think, and that does not mean what you think is correct
honestly it depends
if i be mindful and wise enough at the moment i would let it be
but
since still i am not 100% mindful and wise i would react differently
if not
why did Buddha teach about Dependent Origination?
Yes, this manager is right. The behavior absolutely will not improve without intervention. They are very late to the party.
Oh well, at least they're started now.
The purpose for their request could be twofold: They need to finally do something about this guy, and they might be trying to find out if you're manager material.
Perhaps but just to make it clear that is not my motivation. I have already been asked if I would like to manage staff and said I do not.
musta missed that - or plum forgot
No you didn't miss it sorry - my wording was confusing - I just wanted to make sure people understood I wasn't trying to climb the corporate ladder by dobbing on colleagues.
The days of workplace bullying being acceptable are over. If someone is verbally warned continually but doesn't heed these warnings then let's hope a written warning may curb this behaviour. It'll be interesting to see......
I agree with the general consensus here, to participate and be honest. I've worked with several similar people in the past, and regardless of the reasons for their misbehavior, it almost always escalates, and makes things much worse at work. A lot of people don't want to deal with reporting, so they just leave. So a company with good employees can find them leaving over a workplace bully no one will do anything about.
That said, compassion is always called for, and having compassion for someone is NOT enabling them. That would be idiot compassion and they are not the same thing. But having compassion, like everything else, needs balance. Compassion for both parties, and the rest of the workplace. And realizing that it's quite possible that the most compassionate thing for this rude man is for him to learn a hard lesson before he makes things even worse.
It's good to consider things like "maybe he's having a hard time at home" in terms of how you choose to react to him. But that doesn't mean one should turn a blind eye to his behavior and its effect on the other person/people. I use those kinds of phrases when I find myself frustrated with slow drivers, for example. "Maybe they are a new driver/having an emergency" or whatever. But it's one thing to be minorly inconvenienced and seeing myself overreacting and working on that issue in myself. It would be quite different if the driver were instead engaging in dangerous behavior that might put others at risk. I might still wonder his reasons, but I would still appropriately and honestly report him to help protect others, and himself from his abuses.
Great example/metaphor, K.
Slightly too slow, annoying? Chill.
Actually dangerous? Call it in.
Most of the time, with a little reflection we should be able to reliably tell those two circumstances apart. In cars, in coworkers, wherever.
Thanks @karasti
I have worked with this guy for a few years and it has been a consistent issue.
This is not someone having a bad day.