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Burkini ban in France
DairyLama
Veteran Veteran
What do you make of this?
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/24/europe/woman-burkini-nice-beach-incident-trnd/
I think it's a more complicated issue than it initially appears, partly because for some Europeans this clothing is associated with the oppression of women. Though telling people what not to wear seems at odds with the principle of Liberte.
In any case, the regularity of Islamist terrorist attacks in France is doubtless connected with the strong emphasis on secularism there, and I fear that this burkini ban will only serve to further alienate the Muslim population in France.
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Comments
Too many terrorist attacks in France.
How to stop these attacks? By going after the terrorists?
No, by going after women in burkini.
Wonderful strategy.
The funny thing is that the burkini would be considered un-islamic in all Muslim countries.
I just heard on the news that the burkini bans are being suspended/withdrawn, but not much detail as yet.
Then why are they wearing them?
May be for them it's a middle path.
https://www.rt.com/viral/357211-burkini-men-speedos-ban/
Explain how, I don't get it.
Are they not supposed to swim at all in Muslim countries then? If they are allowed, then what do they wear instead?
I think it is, as usual, a way for people to think they are having control over the insanity of the current environment but it's not going to stop anything and in the process, only cause harm to innocent people.
If safety were one of their focuses (focii? lol) that might be one thing, but it seems to be less important than forcing the moral ideal onto people instead of allowing them the choice. It does not seem reasonable to me for France to say "The burkini oppresses women, therefore we will not allow them to wear it." Once again, an attempt to control the issue rather than look at the root. If someone is standing in a cell holding onto the bars, they may not even realize you removed the wall behind them so they could leave. Because you never addressed why they were holding on to the bars to begin with. They aren't going to care that you think you gave them freedom from oppression because many of them don't think of it that way. Forcing them is unlikely to help anything, especially relations between the communities.
I'm not entirely educated about this issue.
What happens if a guy shows up on the beach in a burkini? Is he doubly punished -- once for immodesty and once for modesty? Or do the two potential penalties cancel each other out and he can swim -- but not sashay, of course -- in peace?
Oh it makes my head ache. Maybe there's a Jesuit in the crowd who can sort it all out?
Nonsense... how can this possibly assist their community - it just leads to further animosity - I'd probably think differently if they had a universal approach to all religious / religiously inspired paraphernalia but they don't - so much so that their own high court has ruled the ban as unlawful - ridiculous.
Most women in our part of the world are not comfortable with exposing their bodies in public. Irrespective of religion.
I actually agree with this.
@silver this was considered acceptable swimsuit for women in the west at one point of time.
I thought your middle way comment had to do with spirituality, @Swaroop -
Haha
They probably realized they would have to ban catholic nuns from frolicking too.
If we all went nekkid, it would drastically reduce the capacity to camouflage suicide bombs. So in the name of ... uhhh ... safety, let's all take our clothes off.
... or would that just be another version of terrorism?
Somewhat more seriously, if the burkini can be banned as too provocative or evocative, what reaction is anyone to have to T-shirts with Yin-Yang pictures, necklaces and earrings with crosses or other statement-making bling?
Tragically, at the moment, Public Enemy No. 1 is not a country, nor a person, but an ideology.
And the symbolism, the representation, the personification of that ideology, is largely carried by appearance. It manifests in different ways, either by the way the menfolk insist on dressing, or by the way the women are dressed, either by their own insistence or that of their menfolk. It is a very public, identifiable ideology.
The vast majority of people who subscribe to the essential core of this ideology are good, law-abiding, ordinary people who, through no fault of their own, have been put sharply under the spotlight and on public display by the indescribably heinous actions of a (to be honest) small proportion of so-called proponents of the extremist corner of this ideology.
Sadly, the needs of the many have been hijacked by the demands of the few. And the majority suffer.
Is it correct? Justified? Reasonable? Acceptable?
No.
Unfortunately, no matter how unblemished the skin, if the core is rotten, the remainder of the fruit is unpalatable.
We iz wooki?
Some people are offended if they see bare flesh, whilst others if they see the flesh covered...and some find it offensive either way...(so it would seem) .... Is there no middle way ???
....
So let me get this straight. This is ok on the beach?
But this is not?
While the women are swimming ... here are some Russian Muslim dervishes performing zikr (chanting) rave/running style and name calling.
Is there no end to their depravity?
I don't know, I can see both sides of the argument. In a way the Burkini is a statement of captivity. Perhaps one in which the woman has become complicit, by selling it to her as a protective clothing, but still a state in which she is captive to a certain set of garments, which is a long way from the natural state.
Culturally both those forms of dress are a statement that one hasn't adjusted to western society's norms, and isn't intending to do so. These people come and live and work here, but make a point of importing their own cultures and standards. I think some measure of reaction to that, of making clear what is and what isn't accepted, is reasonable.
Disgusting, forcing women to be chaperoned by two (probably Christian) men ...
Ban the curry!
No speaking foreign!
Compulsory skin bleaching!
Compulsory dress code!
Think of the children!
Support the war!
Trump for Caliph!
I haz plan!
[Lobster rants into the distance ...]
Nationalities can mix well.
Trying to mix cultures is all too often like trying to mix oil and water.
we need an emulsifier.....
I feel both burkha and bikney dress are absurd. There is no need to hide hair and face. If just hair and face provokes men then it is not understanding.
Bikney is too much to wear at public place. It looks ugly.
And that is exactly the kind of remark that body-shames women and coerces them to dress the way YOU want. Not the way THEY want. Convincing women to wear something - or not - that goes against their desire, is constrictive and dehumanising.
When men stop caring what women wear, then women really will be free to self-express.
While remarks like yours, @rohit, are acceptable, then women will always be classed by what they look like. Not who they are.
Sorry if it offences. @federica
That's ok. I think you probably wrote, if I may say so, without thinking....
We come from different cultures, @rohit.
you are used to one particular environment, a lifestyle and daily activity that must in all probability be very different to mine.
but examine what you wrote, because what you wrote is what binds women to an image and tradition described and imposed by men. It makes them prisoners of an ideology that, if they fall outside the bounds of, they are labelled as imperfect, and are criticised and insulted.
Do you see what I mean?
Requiring women to bare themselves beyond their comfort level is very creepy, inappropriate, and potentially a slippery slope. I wouldn't want to live in a country where I was required to wear a conventional bathing suit; I often prefer to wear shorts and a T-shirt for swimming. No one has the right to demand that I strip down.
Really weird.
Why should women be required to dress in order to please your personal aesthetic? Requiring women to disrobe for men's pleasure is just as bad as requiring them to cover up.
I think he said what he felt. His comments shouldn't be banned or shamed any more than certain clothing should be. I think he was trying to say more than what came out. Should everybody be comfortable and at ease in a nudist colony or nude beach? I sure wouldn't be. Is that personal 'preference' or what? I tell you one thing - I wouldn't want to sit where a nudist sat, that's fer sure.
Well you won't be coming round to my house then....!
As I stated in my original response to his gracious apology, I think he maybe spoke hastily without putting massive thought into his words, but certainly personal habitat and culture plays a huge part....
The salient point is though, @silver, that everyone should be free and comfortable to wear as much - or as little - as they want, without being ridiculed, insulted, vilified, ostracised or condemned for their looks, appearance, shape or choice. Naturally, decorum plays a part: there's a time and a place for everything. One would not readily accept a scantily-clad young lady in a church. It's a question of 'form' as my late papa would say.... But on a beach, anything should go....
And Orthodox Jewish women
THIS ^^
I'm not a bikini fan - and not just because my beautiful little boddhisatva left stretch marks that would make a map of Sydney's train system look simple on my abdomen upon her entrance into the world, I've always detested them. Plus since I'm whiter than a sheet of A4 Reflex copier paper, I'd be constantly shepherded out to sea - or send the whole world blind
I usually wear a kaftan over a full piece costume and a big wide brimmed hat on the beach - I only have two colours when it comes to tanning, albino and tomato, no in between
But I admire the women who wear a bikini with confidence and enjoy themselves. When on a beach, women - and men - should wear what works for THEM. It's not a fashion parade or court of law ffs. And in Australia we have had for years a campaign for sun safety that has a really irritating jingle of "slip,slop, slap" to prevent melanomas and skin cancer so I have to ask France"wtf dudes??"
fun trivia fact The original Slip Slop Slap campaign started in 1980 in Australia and was spearheaded by the Victorian Anti Cancer Council. In 2001 it was revised to this (cue cringing at broad Aussie accent):
https://youtu.be/nztHSVvZUoU
Hah..... Now I know why you have a fly problem in your house
I BEG YOUR PARDON - ?!
What I meant was that biting insects love bare skin. No need to get ice maiden with me @federica
That's why I wanted clarification! It could have been taken in different ways, right? And flies do not bite humans. So actually, no wonder I didn't get what you meant.... I wondered why I would have 'a fly problem'....
Perhaps because you're 'supafly', to use slightly out of date hip-hop parlance
Oh, no doubt about it....
Just saying, we have lots of biting flies here. And they have scissor mandibles so they bite hard. They remove chunks of skin and suck the blood out. They are the one creature I have trouble with the whole compassion bit with. When they bite, they get swatted, it's still my natural reaction. No bug spray works to deter them. They are awful. The big ones are an inch long. Horse flies, deer flies, and little ankle biters that look like houseflies but sting the dickens out of your ankles at the beach. A burkini type outfit would be ideal for outside time in July here for that reason! (no, I'm not suggesting to take on religious clothing to avoid bugs, I was kidding, lol)
Actually, we have horse flies here too, but usually only out in the open countryside, or where there is livestock... and yes, boy, they sure do bite! In Italy, we call them 'tafani'.
In the summer, they come to the lake (Lago Maggiore) because of the fishermen, and their catches and the nets, which often smell, after being left wet in the sun... The lake, fed by mountain rivers, is cool... and on a hot day, a welcome dip.
As kids, the adults, to play tricks on us, would yell "Tafano!!" and we'd rush into the water for the protection it afforded us. Often, there was no tafano in sight....
Everyone has a right to dress the way they wish. There are always consequences for our actions right or wrong good or bad. If you don't like what someone is wearing then it is really your problem and not theirs. If you impose upon their free will the consequences are often rebellion. One day people will learn this hopefully. If people focused on their own issues rather than everyone else's the world would be more tolerable. That said, my advice would be find something constructive to rather than telling people what they can or cannot wear. The reason they are wearing what they are wearing is their business and not anyone else's. If they seek help because they feel they are victims it is better to help them and not to judge them.
Hello @Phiremonkey , yes, I think essentially, most of us have the same opinion....