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Counterpart sign
Zania
Explorer
I have never noticed any counterpart sign during meditation but from what I understand this is meant to become apparent. Have you seen one? Any idea why I haven't? Shouldn't I have seen by now?is it possible that it's there but I'm not noticing it?
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What is a counterpart sign?
it's part of Jhana...stuff. I had to look it up, as Jhanas are not a focus of meditation for me. My understanding is that it is a clear and unwavering mental image that the meditator achieves and can hold even when not in meditation. It signifies suppression of the senses and the ability to fully concentrate thus allowing someone to achieve the fisrt jhana. But like I said it is not something I practice so my understanding might be incorrect.
Here it is discussed in parts 3 and 4
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyadhamma/bl115.html
And explained a bit further in this book
https://books.google.com/books?id=lQ_ZzFgJ1AwC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=what+is+counterpart+sign+meditation&source=bl&ots=Ngk-QcydcT&sig=QwgmDQLblXd2bIl-JfT16M3WWp4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil_5m0k5TPAhXHsh4KHYS3BooQ6AEISTAH#v=onepage&q=what is counterpart sign meditation&f=false
This is called the nimitta It appears when you have a certain level of concentration. For me the nimitta has been consistent throughout the years. To make it simple when the nimitta appears its indicates a certain level of access concentration. I don't follow the Jhanas but I would not be surprised the nimitta would also appear. Its nothing other than a checkpoint to let you know where you are.
I'm very interested to know what it is (your nimitta) and is it a feeling or a visual or a vision or what? How do you best describe this thing? I've never heard of this stuff but it's right up my alley. (Maybe it will motivate me to meditate 'better', ha ha.)
It is an image. In the beginning the nimitta will probably be a bit unsteady/unclear. Later on it will be steady and very clear. It can be very colorful and intense so much that you may become overly involved. The image varies widely amongst persons. It may be or not a Dharma image. Don't worry what it is. At this point I won't discuss the image. It would not be so good to accidentally influence another.
I am a sporadic Meditator. Never seen one.
Just rang a friend of mine in France, who is dedicated meditator, and extremely well-versed in Buddhism, a follower of the path (though he purports to not call himself Buddhist, I tell him he is...He just smiles, Mona Lisa like, and shakes his head, bemused....)
He hasn't ever experienced such a phenomenon either.
I think it's probably not worth concerning yourself over it, too much, but leaving it aside.
If it happens, it happens. Whoopee-do.
If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. Whoopee-do.
I have known few experienced meditators that haven't. But for ease of investigation it is spoken more often of in Therevada. Its not hard to find. Pity those monks in Sri Lanka that have deceived us all. As well as the respected Burmese teacher Ven U Silananda. Let us not forget the great deceivers Nyanatiloka and Nyanaponika.
I don't think people were saying it doesn't exist. What I was hearing is that not everyone experiences it. It's not a focus of many traditions so their probably not even looking and isn't a required attainment.
Shunryu Suzuki sees things this way....
Perhaps @Zania you should take a leaf out of his Dharma book...and just 'sit' with no expectations whatsoever .....(Not even having the expectation of not having expectations ).
I haven't experienced nimittas, though that might be because I meditated with eyes open for many years.
I understand what you are saying but then what are the use of books, scriptures, teachers etc etc if in the end all you have to do is sit there with no expectations and let go? I have tried to cultivate that kind of "letting go" attitude and it's very helpful at times but at the moment I am at a point where I need some guidance and some kind of support or validation that I'm on the right path and doing things not perfectly but somewhat correctly, otherwise I might sit here for 20 years and waste a lot of time doing something in a way that is not skillful and leads to nothing but confusion and unhappiness. Do you see what I'm saying?
I have never been the type of person to have blind faith in anything. I need to see evidence this activity I spend so much of my life doing is in fact taking me to where I think it is taking me and for me that is about equanimity, kindness, deep sense of happiness and peace despite external circumstances and ultimately enlightenment. I guess I'm just not so sure anymore and need to talk with someone about my practice to check I'm on track.
Because that is ultimately what Practice is about. Learning, understanding, absorbing, accepting, then letting go, and letting be. Relaxing into it. Being comfortable with it. Letting it rest lightly on your head, like a humming bird, instead of on your shoulders like an ostrich.
Then don' 'try' to cultivate it. Just let go. Trying to let go, is like trying to pick a book up. Not actually picking it up, but just trying to. See? it's just too difficult a concept to take in.
You either do, or you don't. There is no in-between. If you're 'trying' then it won't work.
You just let go.
Look at all the guidance and support you are gaining here. We're all trying to provide you with exactly that kind of support and guidance, but it sounds to me as if we are giving you what you DON'T want to hear. So if you sit in front of a cross-legged Guru, wearing robes and of shaven head, and he repeats everything we have said - would you listen? Would you consider their words (exactly like ours) to be any wiser, more profound, more experienced?
Everything I have ever clung to, both tangibly and mentally, I am letting go of.
Because there is nothing to be clung to.
And you are clinging to this desire to find someone special, unique,, wise and masterly - who will in absolutely no doubt whatsoever - tell you the same thing.
You need to let go. Because you're not getting it.
) but we are not what you think you need.
You, yourself are the greatest obstacle you have to understanding that which you seek.
We're talking to you until we're blue in the face (Like the Blue Medicine Buddha!
"When the student is ready, the Teacher will appear."
We're all knocking on your door, ("Special delivery!!") but you seem reluctant to open it....
Is it because you ordered noodles, but we're giving you rice?
Mine is the special chow mein
...
oh only a cyber meal. Yum enough ...
Should I expect visions of Neapolitan?
Their use is simply to guide the intellect to a point from which one goes beyond intellectual understanding to just experience...
In a nutshell this is the result when one puts into practice what's been taught by the teachers...(in whatever form they take)
Remember all a good teacher can do is point the way....the travel arrangements are left up to the traveller
Yes I do @Zania , however what have you learnt in the last five years of your meditation practice ? ( or better still unlearnt )
@Zania it can be quite difficult to describe ones 'experience' in words that everyone would easily understand, much of Buddhist teaching come across as somewhat paradoxical and for good reason....
"There is really no permanent "I" to be found amongst what is just mind and matter
Only a continuous state of energy flux that really likes to chatter
And when one thinks one’s found this elusive self. it immediately fades away
Leaving no trace only an empty space and a body that will decay"
Are there any Buddhist centres near to where you are living ?
If not, then perhaps this "link" will be of some help....it's an online Buddhist study guide which covers a wide range of topics ...
From all I have read, studying and practicing the jhana's is a key part of the Buddha's teachings, so it's a good thing to at least be aware of these things. They are a key part of the Buddha's path to enlightenment, although it is a more advanced practice. It's on my to-do list
The thing about finding a teacher is that it is a very special relationship, if you can find an appropriate teacher. It's not so much about checking whether you are on track as it is being sure you are introducing the right elements at the right time, it is difficult to learn these things just from books.
Federica no offence meant here but your tone comes across really quite harsh, controlling and judgemental. You seem to be very irritated by my questions and confusion.
It may all be very simple to understand and just about "letting go" for you but I'm not you and I'm looking for some gentle guidance. To me "letting go" is such a vague abstract concept. What does it even mean in reality.
Nobody is perfect. I'm quite a slow learner and I'm also going through some very big painful tumultuous changes in my life right now so if you do want to try and help me please try to be more patient and understanding otherwise you will just frighten me off somewhere else. The internet is a big place and when people are mean to me or I perceive them as such I move on.
And no I'm not looking for a guru in robes etc. That is very sarcastic to imply such a thing.
@Zania. If you can talk about those painful changes then maybe you may find more comfort here.
No and no.
If you are not noticing it, then in every sense that matters it is not there.
Dharma is not a time based endeavour. If you consider yourself 'not a beginner', then what advice would you offer us who have no interest in seeing things? As you are only prepared to take our efforts in a way that suits you - What is it you require? Guarantees? Not from this cructacean. [too harsh? too bad! You claim you are not a beginner, then so be it ... oh I iz very wikid ...]
Remember not to judge me ... oh wait ...too late 
Thanks. You helped me realise this is not the place for me. It's just yet another place I do not feel a sense of belonging but instead feel unwelcome and judged. Even so I wish you peace and happiness. Goodbye.
@Zania Perhaps you should realise that those emotions are annica, dukkha and anatta instead of just reacting to them.
I give up.
Everyone, remind me not to talk to anyone, any more, any time.
I'll just sit on the sidelines and ban the occasional spammer.
I hope things work out for you @Zania
I was on the verge of becoming more irritated by this until I took my own advice and let it go. Meh.
Bon Voyage @Zania, wherever your searching may take you, I hope you find what it is you are seeking....
On the off chance you come back and read, @Zania, Buddhism isn't about finding someone who did it right and doing exactly what they did so you can be just like them. Buddhism is more of a guide, and you have to decide how to use it.
Say someone travels the world, and writes a guide to it. And you want to travel the world, too. Do you follow their exact path, standing at the top of a cliff, unsure which way that other person went, worried about doing the trip wrong? Or do you look through the guide, and find out which way you want to travel the world, using their information but not following it literally step by step because maybe in your life you don't need to stand on that cliff, but the person who wrote the guide did. Buddhism is much the same. You are too worried about doing it right or wrong. And your concern for that is clouding your ability to let Buddhism work for you.