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@federica said:
I take it you're being humorous? (Lack of emoticons leaves one wondering....)
If the pain causes pleasure, the pleasure is mutual and both parties are ready, willing, able and totally compliant, then the precept is not broken.
Basically sexual misconduct is taken to mean that as long as all parties are participating within their own free will and are happy, not coerced or made to 'perform' then it's all good.
The essence of the 3rd precept is to suspend judgement when evaluating it. That also goes for all the other precepts.
They're guides to Life, not condemnations.
I wasn't being humorous. It is quite an issue of thought to me, and, as said, has been for many years.
We all have different turn-ons. If it brings them pleasure and causes no one any harm, then why not?
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silverIn the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded.USA, Left coast.Veteran
Um...it's in the vicinity anyway.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@thickpaper said:
I have long pondered this about this precept and conceptual sadism.
If Bob and Jenny are Buddhists and Bob likes Jenny to spank him - causing much pain #owch! -is that breaking this precept?
I guess there is some distinction between pain and suffering.
A surgeon causes harm when cutting someone open but the greater purpose is helpful. I think it would be much the same in regards to sadomasochism there is infliction of harm but the greater purpose is for pleasure.
I think it comes down to awareness and trust with your partner. If spanking and such are pleasurable and consensual and aren't being used to be condescending and controlling over an unwilling partner, that's an entirely different thing. Samara definitely includes physical pain, but people who enjoy that don't consider it pain the same as others might.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@David said: The holes we use for procreation we also use to pee.
Ok, you DO know women are different, don't you.....? ;
I said holes, not the pipes that lead to the holes.
Unless I missed an upgrade... Does it come out the nose now or something?
Oh boy.
In women, urine comes out of our urethra's meatus, situated about a half-inch in front of the vagina, and duirectly under the clitoris. Neither pipes or holes are remotely connected.
Cystitis is also known as 'the honeymoon infection' because repeated and constant ~ahem!~ ...'friction' can cause a urethra inflammation.
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited January 2017
Oh ok.
Well, that's something I should have known.
It's not like I ever had a close up view (while there was peeing, lol) or anything though.
It's not like I ever had a close up view (while there was peeing, lol) or anything though.
No wonder men can't find the clitoris..... ~rolleyes~
Really....? It's basic anatomy.
It never ceases to amaze me that guys in long-term relationships with women, have little or no idea how their women are built, or what does... what.
Honestly.
I'm genuinely surprised. And a little critical, for which I make no apology.
@thickpaper said:
If Bob and Jenny are Buddhists and Bob likes Jenny to spank him - causing much pain #owch! -is that breaking this precept?
>
If so, then the characters from 50 Shades Of Grey will be reborn in a hell realm.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Good, a bit of company. I might be heading that way myself.....
1
DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
It's not like I ever had a close up view (while there was peeing, lol) or anything though.
No wonder men can't find the clitoris..... ~rolleyes~
Really....? It's basic anatomy.
It never ceases to amaze me that guys in long-term relationships with women, have little or no idea how their women are built, or what does... what.
Honestly.
I'm genuinely surprised. And a little critical, for which I make no apology.
How would they know, if one of their partners didn't show them, and tell them it's important? What amazes me is that there are still a significant number of women who fake orgasm rather than show their partner what they need, and what works. Men can't be blamed if no one ever tells them. I suppose these days, they can look it up on the internet or order a book from Amazon. But that seems like a rather impersonal way to go about learning how things work.
No one ever told me how the male body works. I still wasn't sure how sex worked, exactly, until I tried it. Thankfully my husband is happy to answer whatever random question I have about the functions of the male body. Not only for the better of our sex life but for my understanding of my sons as they grow up. I do talk to them about women as things come up, too. I am still trying to explain how women don't pee out of their vaginas to my 14 year old. That kind of stuff has always been on the table for discussion at our house, because I don't want to raise men who are clueless and "oh ewww! Periods are gross!" about the women in their lives. Understanding goes a long ways.
That's good @karasti.
I suspect most of us grew up in environments where any discussion about sex or the body was taboo.
I certainly did.
I remember we had to dissect a rat in science, draw it and write down the different body parts. One we had to write was vagina. My mum found the book and hit the roof!! I remember her demanding I rub the word out until I explained it was supposed to be there. She looked a bit dumbfounded.
I also remember my dad finding a fairly soft core porn book my mate and I had as teenagers and demanding we get such filth out of the house!
Might go a little way to explaining some of the issues I developed later in life......
Sex is more horrific than violence where I'm from.
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Dakini said: How would they know, if one of their partners didn't show them, and tell them it's important?
I didn't wait to be told. I chose to be curious and to find out for myself. I think it disrespectful to be with a person, have sex with them on a regular basis, and have not a clue how their plumbing actually works! If you don't know - find out - either be up front and ask, or do your own research! It's not up to others to give me basic knowledge - technique is another matter entirely.
What amazes me is that there are still a significant number of women who fake orgasm rather than show their partner what they need, and what works.
Most women who do this actually do it to appease the man's ego. So I was told, on many an occasion....
Men can't be blamed if no one ever tells them.
Yes they can, just as women can apparently be blamed for faking orgasm.
I suppose these days, they can look it up on the internet or order a book from Amazon. But that seems like a rather impersonal way to go about learning how things work.
But the most precise, thorough and accurate.
We learn about Buddhism predominantly by first reading about it, mostly - don't we?
@Dakini said: How would they know, if one of their partners didn't show them, and tell them it's important?
I didn't wait to be told. I chose to be curious and to find out for myself. I think it disrespectful to be with a person, have sex with them on a regular basis, and have not a clue how their plumbing actually works! If you don't know - find out - either be up front and ask, or do your own research! It's not up to others to give me basic knowledge - technique is another matter entirely.
What amazes me is that there are still a significant number of women who fake orgasm rather than show their partner what they need, and what works.
Most women who do this actually do it to appease the man's ego. So I was told, on many an occasion....
Men can't be blamed if no one ever tells them.
Yes they can, just as women can apparently be blamed for faking orgasm.
I suppose these days, they can look it up on the internet or order a book from Amazon. But that seems like a rather impersonal way to go about learning how things work.
But the most precise, thorough and accurate.
We learn about Buddhism predominantly by first reading about it, mostly - don't we?
I think communication is key in any relationship. Both participants have a responsibility to ask, to share, to guide. Book learning in this context will only take one so far. There's so much individual variation in physical response when it comes to applying the theory...
No wonder men can't find the clitoris..... ~rolleyes~
Really....? It's basic anatomy.
looks at spilt Coke on her desk I made the unwise decision - in hindsight - to take a mouthful of my drink while reading this. But it's ok fede, I swallowed because I you
runs far away and hides under all of lobster's cushions
1
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Running and hiding are two different things to me.
Run = yes.
Hide = no.
2
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
"Sex is terrible, sinful, aberrant, disgusting, degrading.....Now be fruitful and multiply, and repopulate the earth."
Did the Earth even need repopulating? I think the rhinoceroses, chimps, lions, elephants and so on were getting along perfectly well without a hugely expanded human population.
"Sex is terrible, sinful, aberrant, disgusting, degrading.....Now be fruitful and multiply, and repopulate the earth."
Did the Earth even need repopulating? I think the rhinoceroses, chimps, lions, elephants and so on were getting along perfectly well without a hugely expanded human population.
"Go forth and populate the Earth so you may spread the only one true faith!" is what I've gotten out of that. I doubt it had anything to do with an attempt to better the planet or the human race.
@karasti said:
"Go forth and populate the Earth so you may spread the only one true faith!" is what I've gotten out of that. I doubt it had anything to do with an attempt to better the planet or the human race.
Go forth and multiply, said my math teacher. She was Christian.
I come from a Pagan background (still consider myself Pagan) and the Wiccan Rede states, "And if it harm none, do what thou wilt." (attributed to Aleister Crowley).
I'm pretty much down with that line of morality. You do need to stop and consider what you're doing...are you harming anyone, including yourself? The pornography debate is a contentious one but I personally don't have a problem with it if it doesn't get out of hand and doesn't promote unhealthy attitudes toward sex and women. I've been reading a lot of negative data about the effects of porn on men, particularly young men these days when Tindr and the "hookup" culture has rendered them unable to do much other than push in, pull out, repeat.
When I was younger and dating younger men (it was, erm, awhile ago!) I didn't get too bent if I found the occasional Playboy or Penthouse. I liked Playboy myself. For the articles, really! (Hey, I'm a female. Women don't do it for me.) As long as a guy wasn't addicted or displayed misogyny, I was okay with it. (Never a problem.)
As for prostitution, that's a little stickier...I have no moral problem for it as a service...what the hell is wrong with selling sex in and of itself?...but you are arguably objectifying the woman...using her orifices as masturbation devices. And, we all know most women are in prostitution because they have to or have been forced. Although I know there are some who are doing it because they WANT TO AND LIKE IT. I don't know how many really do, but it got me thinking that it wasn't all evil when I read The Happy Hooker, the Mayflower Madam and Dolores French (I think that was her name. The name of the book I think was Working Girl.)
I don't have a problem with pleasure and I'm a bit put off by TNH's teachings a little, because he pushes what sounds like a little too much asceticism with the mindfulness teachings. I'm not even real keen on TNH's "You must be in a loving and committed relationship." Not always, I don't think. I do wonder about silly rules (not TNH) where "you can't have sex on your birthday" and "you can't have anal or oral sex," which sounds like someone's personal hangups rather than a real rule. I like to say, "Is there a rational reason why this rule is in place?" "Because that's the day your mother went through a lot of pain for you," is not a good reason.
I would say just always be mindful of what you're doing, and make sure you're not harming yourself or others (particularly prostitutes...and I' don't mean physically, I mean think of what you're doing if she has to do this for a living because she has a crack habit and a pimp who will beat her if she doesn't bring in her quota.)
@ZenCanuck said:
I come from a Pagan background (still consider myself Pagan) and the Wiccan Rede states, "And if it harm none, do what thou wilt." (attributed to Aleister Crowley).
It was actually Vivienne Crowley who wrote it. If you can find the full version it's absolutely beautiful. I'm of the opinion ol' Aleister ride her coat tails a lot. I was never popular in my Coven or community for that view but shrugs What do you do?
_ /\ _
0
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@ZenCanuck said:
I come from a Pagan background (still consider myself Pagan) and the Wiccan Rede states, "And if it harm none, do what thou wilt." (attributed to Aleister Crowley).
It was actually Vivienne Crowley who wrote it. If you can find the full version it's absolutely beautiful. I'm of the opinion ol' Aleister ride her coat tails a lot. I was never popular in my Coven or community for that view but shrugs What do you do?
_ /\ _
Where do you get that? I've never seen it attributed to her first, only him. But hey, who knew the Internet lies?
I've also read it was Uncle Al in numerous books, but is there new info on this? History changes!
What do I do? Not much, anymore...kinda fell away from Paganism a bit. But I may get back into it now that I'm getting all Buddhisty The spiritual centres are awakening again after being shut down for about fifteen years
@ZenCanuck said:
I come from a Pagan background (still consider myself Pagan) and the Wiccan Rede states, "And if it harm none, do what thou wilt." (attributed to Aleister Crowley).
It was actually Vivienne Crowley who wrote it. If you can find the full version it's absolutely beautiful. I'm of the opinion ol' Aleister ride her coat tails a lot. I was never popular in my Coven or community for that view but shrugs What do you do?
_ /\ _
Where do you get that? I've never seen it attributed to her first, only him. But hey, who knew the Internet lies?
British Traditional Wicca. It was several years ago but there were bibliography links on their "official" website
What do I do? Not much, anymore...kinda fell away from Paganism a bit. But I may get back into it now that I'm getting all Buddhisty The spiritual centres are awakening again after being shut down for about fifteen years
Sorry the question "What do you do" was more like "Oh well what can you do?" Sorry, it's my bad Strine (Australian) not translating properly.
But it's only fair to share - I'm a second degree Gardnerian and like yourself I fell away from it about ten or eleven years ago. My reason for leaving was more clashing egos in the local community. I do miss the Esbats and Sabbats at times. But I'm focusing on Buddhism with mainly good progress.
Comments
Once a year?! Sheer luxury!
I wasn't being humorous. It is quite an issue of thought to me, and, as said, has been for many years.
We all have different turn-ons. If it brings them pleasure and causes no one any harm, then why not?
Um...it's in the vicinity anyway.
A surgeon causes harm when cutting someone open but the greater purpose is helpful. I think it would be much the same in regards to sadomasochism there is infliction of harm but the greater purpose is for pleasure.
I think it comes down to awareness and trust with your partner. If spanking and such are pleasurable and consensual and aren't being used to be condescending and controlling over an unwilling partner, that's an entirely different thing. Samara definitely includes physical pain, but people who enjoy that don't consider it pain the same as others might.
Oh boy.
In women, urine comes out of our urethra's meatus, situated about a half-inch in front of the vagina, and duirectly under the clitoris. Neither pipes or holes are remotely connected.
The urethra in men is around 9cm long, from the bladder. In women, it is around 4.5cm long, from the bladder, which is why it is so much easier for women to contract urinary infections.
Cystitis is also known as 'the honeymoon infection' because repeated and constant ~ahem!~ ...'friction' can cause a urethra inflammation.
Oh ok.
Well, that's something I should have known.
It's not like I ever had a close up view (while there was peeing, lol) or anything though.
Honeymooners, note that 9 cm = 3 1/2" .
It's on the internet, it must be true.
No. It's in your body, and anatomically, IS true.
Sadly, the length of a man's urethra is no 'measure' of his sexual prowess.....
as I'm sure you must have realised by now.
No wonder men can't find the clitoris..... ~rolleyes~
Really....? It's basic anatomy.
It never ceases to amaze me that guys in long-term relationships with women, have little or no idea how their women are built, or what does... what.
Honestly.
I'm genuinely surprised. And a little critical, for which I make no apology.
>
If so, then the characters from 50 Shades Of Grey will be reborn in a hell realm.
Good, a bit of company. I might be heading that way myself.....
You poor thing.
Oh no, worry not....I have no problem with that side of things.
You should read the sutra on Parting The Roast Beef Curtains.
Read it...?I think you'll find I wrote it!
I knew if had to be someone in this sangha . . .
Where I come from, nice people don't talk about sex...
It causes trouble not to talk about sex. One should at least be aware, though without gossiping.
How would they know, if one of their partners didn't show them, and tell them it's important? What amazes me is that there are still a significant number of women who fake orgasm rather than show their partner what they need, and what works. Men can't be blamed if no one ever tells them. I suppose these days, they can look it up on the internet or order a book from Amazon. But that seems like a rather impersonal way to go about learning how things work.
No one ever told me how the male body works. I still wasn't sure how sex worked, exactly, until I tried it. Thankfully my husband is happy to answer whatever random question I have about the functions of the male body. Not only for the better of our sex life but for my understanding of my sons as they grow up. I do talk to them about women as things come up, too. I am still trying to explain how women don't pee out of their vaginas to my 14 year old. That kind of stuff has always been on the table for discussion at our house, because I don't want to raise men who are clueless and "oh ewww! Periods are gross!" about the women in their lives. Understanding goes a long ways.
That's good @karasti.
I suspect most of us grew up in environments where any discussion about sex or the body was taboo.
I certainly did.
I remember we had to dissect a rat in science, draw it and write down the different body parts. One we had to write was vagina. My mum found the book and hit the roof!! I remember her demanding I rub the word out until I explained it was supposed to be there. She looked a bit dumbfounded.
I also remember my dad finding a fairly soft core porn book my mate and I had as teenagers and demanding we get such filth out of the house!
Might go a little way to explaining some of the issues I developed later in life......
Umm which remind me...
"Sex is terrible, sinful, aberrant, disgusting, degrading.....Now be fruitful and multiply, and repopulate the earth."
Is it any wonder that many Westerners in bible-centric societies are f@#ked up (pun intended
) when it comes to being open about sex........Go figure 
Sex is more horrific than violence where I'm from.
I didn't wait to be told. I chose to be curious and to find out for myself. I think it disrespectful to be with a person, have sex with them on a regular basis, and have not a clue how their plumbing actually works! If you don't know - find out - either be up front and ask, or do your own research! It's not up to others to give me basic knowledge - technique is another matter entirely.
Most women who do this actually do it to appease the man's ego. So I was told, on many an occasion....
Yes they can, just as women can apparently be blamed for faking orgasm.
But the most precise, thorough and accurate.
We learn about Buddhism predominantly by first reading about it, mostly - don't we?
I think communication is key in any relationship. Both participants have a responsibility to ask, to share, to guide. Book learning in this context will only take one so far. There's so much individual variation in physical response when it comes to applying the theory...
Proceed with caution. Slippery when wet.
^^ ... and 'LOL'... ^^
looks at spilt Coke on her desk I made the unwise decision - in hindsight - to take a mouthful of my drink while reading this. But it's ok fede, I swallowed because I
you
runs far away and hides under all of lobster's cushions
Running and hiding are two different things to me.
Run = yes.
Hide = no.
Did the Earth even need repopulating? I think the rhinoceroses, chimps, lions, elephants and so on were getting along perfectly well without a hugely expanded human population.
Don't ask me...I'm just the messenger :w
"Go forth and populate the Earth so you may spread the only one true faith!" is what I've gotten out of that. I doubt it had anything to do with an attempt to better the planet or the human race.
Go forth and multiply, said my math teacher. She was Christian.
Now I know what she really meant.
I come from a Pagan background (still consider myself Pagan) and the Wiccan Rede states, "And if it harm none, do what thou wilt." (attributed to Aleister Crowley).
I'm pretty much down with that line of morality. You do need to stop and consider what you're doing...are you harming anyone, including yourself? The pornography debate is a contentious one but I personally don't have a problem with it if it doesn't get out of hand and doesn't promote unhealthy attitudes toward sex and women. I've been reading a lot of negative data about the effects of porn on men, particularly young men these days when Tindr and the "hookup" culture has rendered them unable to do much other than push in, pull out, repeat.
When I was younger and dating younger men (it was, erm, awhile ago!) I didn't get too bent if I found the occasional Playboy or Penthouse. I liked Playboy myself. For the articles, really! (Hey, I'm a female. Women don't do it for me.) As long as a guy wasn't addicted or displayed misogyny, I was okay with it. (Never a problem.)
As for prostitution, that's a little stickier...I have no moral problem for it as a service...what the hell is wrong with selling sex in and of itself?...but you are arguably objectifying the woman...using her orifices as masturbation devices. And, we all know most women are in prostitution because they have to or have been forced. Although I know there are some who are doing it because they WANT TO AND LIKE IT. I don't know how many really do, but it got me thinking that it wasn't all evil when I read The Happy Hooker, the Mayflower Madam and Dolores French (I think that was her name. The name of the book I think was Working Girl.)
I don't have a problem with pleasure and I'm a bit put off by TNH's teachings a little, because he pushes what sounds like a little too much asceticism with the mindfulness teachings. I'm not even real keen on TNH's "You must be in a loving and committed relationship." Not always, I don't think. I do wonder about silly rules (not TNH) where "you can't have sex on your birthday" and "you can't have anal or oral sex," which sounds like someone's personal hangups rather than a real rule. I like to say, "Is there a rational reason why this rule is in place?" "Because that's the day your mother went through a lot of pain for you," is not a good reason.
I would say just always be mindful of what you're doing, and make sure you're not harming yourself or others (particularly prostitutes...and I' don't mean physically, I mean think of what you're doing if she has to do this for a living because she has a crack habit and a pimp who will beat her if she doesn't bring in her quota.)
It was actually Vivienne Crowley who wrote it. If you can find the full version it's absolutely beautiful. I'm of the opinion ol' Aleister ride her coat tails a lot. I was never popular in my Coven or community for that view but shrugs What do you do?
_ /\ _
(Which brings us neatly to @Silver's thread....)
Where do you get that? I've never seen it attributed to her first, only him. But hey, who knew the Internet lies?
I've also read it was Uncle Al in numerous books, but is there new info on this? History changes!
What do I do? Not much, anymore...kinda fell away from Paganism a bit. But I may get back into it now that I'm getting all Buddhisty
The spiritual centres are awakening again after being shut down for about fifteen years 
British Traditional Wicca. It was several years ago but there were bibliography links on their "official" website
Sorry the question "What do you do" was more like "Oh well what can you do?" Sorry, it's my bad Strine (Australian) not translating properly.
But it's only fair to share - I'm a second degree Gardnerian and like yourself I fell away from it about ten or eleven years ago. My reason for leaving was more clashing egos in the local community. I do miss the Esbats and Sabbats at times. But I'm focusing on Buddhism with mainly good progress.
_ /\ _