Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Sexual Misconduct
Bunks
Australia Veteran
in Mindfulness
For a single person is sleeping with a prostitute or watching pornography sexual misconduct?
I'll be interested to hear what people have to say based on gender.
I am male in case some people weren't aware.....
0
Comments
Watching porn would definitely increase attachment. It's not misconduct, because you're not at risk of causing suffering directly to another sentient being. Unless you figure that the whole porn industry is exploitive, so paying for anything it produces would be supporting it.
Paying a prostitute? I'm sure Buddhism has something to say about that. But again, unless she works for a pimp and is getting abused when not "on the job", and as long as she's not underage or has been trafficked, there wouldn't be an issue with potentially causing harm, emotionally or otherwise. It's a straightforward transaction, no deceit or manipulation on your part involved. But I don't think it would be considered "right livelihood" for the woman.
Having a FWB wouldn't be misconduct, either. As long as both parties are clear and honest with each other regarding their expectations, it's ok (for householders). It's a matter of choice, I guess, as to how much progress you want to make in this lifetime re: overcoming attachment.
I don't think either is necessarily sexual misconduct, but I'd say that watching porn is more of a problem than visiting a prostitute. Watching porn is feeding your sexuality on passive audio-visual content, you condition it to respond to passive situations where you are really not involved. You become attached to having the content available to eyes and ears, without truly expressing yourself or having the chance to grow within the encounter.
Ideally finding a FWB would be a healthier way to fulfill the need. You'd get sexual encounters, without the moral dilemmas of dealing with a prostitute. An affair or a longer term relationship would be healthier, but I think within all of these there are different issues in how you deal with the various attachment aspects of the relationships.
Osho's take on this was that there should be a primacy of the loving emotional aspect of the relationship. In his communes relationships were encouraged to evolve naturally. You meet a woman that you feel attracted to, you form a relationship, you are together for a while, and when it comes to an end you part ways beautifully, remembering the best of each other.
I think a good question to ask generally is: "Does this behaviour cause suffering to myself, or to others?"
Prostitution is normally illegal, so going with yes on that one.
Knowing about how prostitution comes about in my state, I'd say that could be a bigger issue. It might not be, it all depends on the laws where you live and the conditions. But here, it is illegal and many, many of them are trafficked, but it's not like they are going to tell you if you ask them. There most certainly are prostitutes who are completely, consciously making the choice. But many of them, if they are making the choice at all, are making it because of drug addiction. Many are runaways. A city near me is an international industrial shipping port, and the men coming from Russia want prostitutes and it turns out most of them are Native American women who were indeed trafficked. If I was ever going to go that route, I guess I'd ask myself how I could possible know what their intentions were, and if I was contributing to their suffering. I would also be afraid of ending up in the paper during a sting. But like I said, it's illegal here. In places where it is legal these problems are probably at least somewhat fewer and it would be possible to find a reputable place where you know they are there by choice and properly care for themselves and each other.
Porn is kind of the same. Of course you aren't directly hurting anyone by watching it. Most people do at some point. I have. But I found the "experience" better when I simply used my imagination because for me porn is just entirely lacking substance, but of course as a woman (generalizing, it's not the case for every woman) I prefer an emotional connection so a fantasy that includes that does more for me than porn where the housewife is enjoying the company of the HVAC man,
Some people definitely make porn by choice. Again, many others are doing it to support their drug addictions and are very lost within themselves and suffering greatly. And causing suffering to their children and families.
On thing that I did when I was younger was read a lot of erotic literature. It did the job without involving people having to get their hands dirty (so to speak) in any way. And some people do some darn good writing. But I know men tend to be more visual so that might not be an option for you.
So for me the line would be (at least in part) how well I could discern whether the participants (prostitution or porn) were truly making a conscious and healthy choice for themselves. And how well I was truly making that choice for myself. I tend to prefer running to get rid of that energy if my husband is somehow unavailable.
This is a tough one for me.
If nobody is being hurt then I don't see the issue but for myself they go against the grain as I do see harm there. I have to stress that is just a personal view for my own conduct.
I don't like the idea of sex being used as a drug and I see it as a problem that goes almost right to the root of the disease of us vs. "them".
It is legal in Australia.
I think generally the idea is to reduce harm and suffering, so there isn't anything explicitly harmful in an exchange of some kind for sex. Most prostitution though often involves some sort of coercion of the women be it by a pimp or a trafficker or I think you could make the case of supporting a drug addiction. I've seen some documentaries on the legal prostitutes here in the US around Las Vegas and at least some of them said they like having sex and it makes them happy to please men in that way. Since it is legal in Australia maybe you have a better chance of finding someone like that.
Having said that as a Buddhist you should also look at how engaging in such behaviors and emotions affects you. It can be hard to see sometimes when certain emotions are strong. I've found success with taking regular day long vows, maybe one day a week to start working up to every other day or several days in a row. In combination with a meditation practice this allowed me to get familiar with the difficulty of strong cravings without having to engage in them because I knew I could the next day. Over time it has helped me let go.
I think this information age is a blessing and a curse.
You have access to all manner of Dharma from all traditions.
You also have access to all manner of sense pleasures.
The only monk I've ever met was a Kadampa Buddhist who told me something I never forgot: "We try to do only virtuous things."
Watching porn is not virtuous.
But, the monk didn't say, "We do only virtuous things."
He said, "We TRY to do only virtuous things."
I think by beating yourself up over it then you'd get the whole package of suffering . . . Ill will toward yourself. Sense pleasures. And possibly harming those in the sex industry.
I think if anything gives you personally cause for concern, it's harming YOU. Address the why and wherefore of it.
The first precept is "Do no harm" (or words to that effect) and it also counts for the remaining 4 of the 5 we normally adhere to. It's really mainly about what you end up doing to, and for, yourself....
Thanks for the input guys. I do think it comes down to how it affects me and my peace of mind.
Often after watching porn or sleeping with a prostitute (which I have done a number of times) I don't feel particularly at ease.
Maybe that is the answer.
That depends entirely on the country; in some parts of Europe, for example, it's legal.
As in Buddhism, I think both are Sexual Misconduct.
In the video below, it lists some of the Sexual Misconducts in Buddhism.
What is Sexual Misconduct?
"...If one trades sex for money, or trades money for sex... this is also sexual misconduct...".
Another one listed as one should not have sex on birthdays. The reason is because that day our mothers had gone through the pain and gave birth to us.
A Mi To Fo.
Holy Mother of Buddha. Dukkha is not compulsory. We are lay Buddhists, we are allowed to have presents, cake and be a little frisky once a year ...
>
I'm pretty sure that half of these things the Buddha never said.
It is customary please, @NMADDP to provide reference links to suttas/sutras when making claims to Buddhist teachings. The video has no reference to any of the Suttas, it's just someone's opinion and interpretation.
Please indicate the sutta where the Buddha teaches the caveat on having sex on your birthday??
The video also states that oral or anal sex is sexual misconduct along with masturbation.
Forgive me but for a lay person that doesn't sound right to me.
Yeah, that sounds a lot like someone with a fundamentalist bent making stuff up to fit their world view.
That's it. I quit!
In some Western countries prostitution and porn are the norm, and some such as NZ, prostitution is legal and is a taxable business...
Sexual misconduct in this setting, would be if you actually forced yourself upon the person whom you wanted to have sex with...However it would seem in this case it was just another 'business as usual' transaction on the part of the Professional providing the service....
However, doing things that fall within the laws of the land, may not always sit well with one conscience... , ....
I think when it comes to sexual misconduct one must also take cultural practices into account ie, traditional and customary practices of certain ethnic groups/countries in which Buddhism took hold....
As for people who freely prostituting themselves, that is, not forced into it, but do it for business and or pleasure... I tend to mind my own business
different strokes of the paddle for different folks on the raft
@federica, sorry, in this case, I do not have any sutta/sutra/lecture link related specifically to this.
I agree with you some of these probably not come from the Buddha. I heard different lectures from different masters through out the years that mentioned some of these subjects. I remembered one lecture I heard awhile back from one of the masters that we should not have sex on that day to pay respect to our mothers and also to remember our mothers, because when our mothers gave birth to us, it was not always easy. Of course, we can have a beer and a cake on that day, but @lobster no presents, too much attachements :-).
I found this video which kind list most of I listened from lectures before, so I posted it.
I think some of these probably coming from past Buddhist Masters as teachings/guidelines to help us from craving for it. Each of us have to decide for ourselves what to do.
Of course, as Lay Buddhist we do what we think it is ok or not. We just try our best to practice. @Bunks, regarding masturbation, I used think similar. I just enjoyed myself. I do not hurt anybody, nothing wrong with it. Also, I can almost do it anywhere/anytime when I want, when I have craving for it or after watching some porno. With these teachings is to help us to take a step back and watch our action.
As we practicing Buddhsim, we learn to let go of these things and other attachments little by little..... if we can..... then we will become Buddha (to-be) :-)
A Mi To Fo
Oh, I remember this, now. The Dalai Lama says you're only supposed to use the "hole" that's for procreation, as that's what it's for, whereas the other ones (I'm not making this up) are obviously for purposes other than creating life, and therefore only contribute to attachment if one uses them for sex. In other words, in the context of sex, they're for "recreational" purposes. When he's not speaking to a Western audience, he sounds very "Catholic" about these things. He modifies his views when he's speaking to Westerners vs. Tibetans.
So, again, it all depends on how quickly you want to progress to Enlightenment, and modify your attachment-generating activities accordingly. At some point one could start to wonder why we bother practicing Buddhism at all, if we're not "all in", but that's a whole other topic of discussion.
Bunks....since I've known you here (several years)...sex has been your thing/topic.
I'm not judging....just stating. I agree with those that seem to be implying/suggesting that you
Figure out the degree of suffering this is causing and then if you want to work on it....or not. Are you attached? Either way...own it. We can't confirm or deny if you lose your Buddha badge, haha. This just seems to be something that's been leading you instead of the other way around.
Well, given that we're householders, not monks, I think the OP has a valid question of where we draw the line. I know in the sutras, the Buddha had some householder followers, a couple of whom did reach Enlightenment. I'm not familiar with those passages, but it raises the questions: were the householders expected to eschew sex with their partner, and did the ones who reached Enlightenment do that, or did they become enlightened while living the family life and having relations with their wife?
For the sake of our readership, who would benefit from examining these questions, I think the OP's query deserves a fair shake.
I agree. I didn't mean to come across dismissive. I thought I was adding to the examination.
Bunks will always get a fair shake from me
Bunks...where do you draw the sex line? What does sex mean to/for you?
If you do, indeed, think this is an attachment for you,
What's the underlining delusion that's manifesting in this way?
Sometimes, it is really easy to go around with ourselves in our mind and then to go to others trying to make sense of that experience. Nothing wrong with that! But sometimes I stop and ask myself "If I ask my teacher, what would he say?" And then I am humbled by the tricks my mind plays on me when I realized what those answers would be. I thought I'd see if Thubten Chodron had anything to say on it, since she is your teacher and you respect her (I assume so, lol). There is a lot of good information here.
http://thubtenchodron.org/1994/06/kind-sexuality-benefit-others-employment/
One of the things she says:
At a conference that the Western Buddhist teachers had with His Holiness, it was mentioned that Thich Nhat Hanh had said that he felt any kind of sexual contact where there was the possibility of a committed relationship was fine. But when it was just frivolous sex, then Thich Nhat Hanh considered it an unwise sexual behavior. His Holiness’ response to this was, “Well, that’s not the way it is traditionally defined in the scriptures.” But the next day His Holiness came back and he said, “Well I was thinking about that and actually I think that’s good. I think that’s right.” I thought it was quite interesting that he came around to that.
There is also this, which is more recent
http://thubtenchodron.org/2015/09/killing-stealing-sexual-misconduct/
She has stuff on porn as well if you are interested to see what she thinks.
"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great"
Thanks @karasti - I should have looked at that too in the first instance!
Hi @Vastmind - you are correct.
Some people have strong attachment (addiction?) to food.
Some to alcohol.
Some to shopping.
Some to the internet etc.
Mine is to sexual gratification.
Couple that with intimacy issues and you get what I would consider to be an unhealthy relationship with sex.
What about after a vasectomy?
What steps could you take to make it more healthy?
What things could you avoid that are leading to the unhealthy?
@person posts on delaying gratification are usually right on. (see above)
Just try to keep working on it. You're not alone in it . Attachments/addictions are a bitch to work through. That's why most people avoid the work. After my daughter was incarcerated, I went back to smoking. I'm using delaying gratification tactics....and I'm seeing progress. Anyway...hang in there Brother Bunks. It's all a process.
Thanks for sharing and being open with what's going on inside you. That takes courage.
Is it lobotomised?
You know, as a woman, I personally don't see anything wrong with @Bunks indulging with a prostitute or porn. To me personally, a prostitute is paid to have sex with people, Bunks isn't using someone who thinks that a relationship may come of it. I see Bunks being more honest than a LOT of people who are only after one thing but hide behind a facade of something else to appease their own feelings shrugs'
YMMV of course
_ /\ _
Indeed, I always find @Bunks honesty and willingness to share openly refreshing. Everything about either topic is very generalized. But the question becomes, is there a way to know for sure, or even to a reasonable degree, that either of those things is not contributing to suffering? I seems in what Bunks has said, that it is contributing at the very least to some values conflict and questioning on his part, and that alone is reason to step back until there is better clarity. He has stated he feels it is not a healthy relationship with his sexual nature.
Of course, there is a lot in the sexual realm we have been made to believe we should feel badly or guilty about. That's a whole other thing we have to work through and determine on our own. But when it comes to other people, IMO, the utmost care should be involved in ensuring there is no harm (which I think is where TNH was coming from where Chodron talked about what he said to HHDL about premarital sex) to anyone, including yourself. And to me, that doesn't mean guessing. It means knowing. And if you don't know, then you are taking a pretty big chance that their is, considering all that goes into prostitution and porn industries.
Of course, but not every person involved in prostitution and porn is there because of circumstances beyond their control or drug addiction. Out here in Australia, as Bunks said, prostitution is legal. I personally know people who worked in the industry whilst studying at Uni to earn some extra money and they are not worse off for it. In Australia's case, our sex workers have very good conditions and I daresay a lot more control and respect than in most other countries. The same goes for our adult film stars. So that's where my opinion is based on.
_ /\ _
@dhammachick Totally understand. Indeed, we are a long ways from that sort of environment in the US and prostitution is only legal in very small area of one state. As usual, the nature of the forbidden brings about a huge and dangerous underground with all sorts of associated problems. Here, the legal brothels are by far the exception and not even really considered because they are so few and inaccessible by 99% of people. So the connection to drugs, desperation, people disowned by their families, runaway children, human trafficking, kidnapping, sexual abuse, parents selling their children on craigslist etc is what we deal with. I'm glad things are much better where you are.
I have taken some steps towards coping with my attachment.
I have filters on all my electronic devices that are managed by someone else so I can't turn them off. This has helped me quite a bit.
As @person stated and @vastmind mentioned, I am going to start having some days of abstaining from any sexual activity and see what the results are.
Thanks all again! You guys are awesome! I'll let you know how things go.
I think sexual morality is given way much too importance in most religions. Maybe it is a way to control people ... by making them feel guilty? I don't know, just saying.
There are many enlightened masters who believe that as laypersons (as opposed to monks), we should focus on becoming more and more mindful, more compassionate. That way sexual morality (for lack of a better term) may come about naturally.
Seriously though that kind of thing makes me wonder. There is a part of me that thinks sex is for procreation and that doing it strictly out of desire goes against the grain. The other part wonders how that could be since women still feel a need for that kind of intimacy after their child bearing years.
It leads me to the conclusion that sex isn't just for making babies and that perhaps I'm a bit of a prude. I'm working on it though as I don't like the idea of my wife feeling neglected.
Maybe you and I both need to find the middle way here.
Strange logic he uses sometimes and I love the guy. We breathe through our mouths but we also eat and speak through that hole too. Should we only be using it to breathe and eat?
The holes we use for procreation we also use to pee.
I feel there is a lot to be said for thinking of sex as a natural and social activity in the tribe. If you look at how some of our monkey cousins do these things - for instance the bonobo's - perhaps in ancient times we did things quite differently from the "pairing" strategies we use these days. Perhaps there was a natural progression from saying hello to grooming to kissing to let's have sex, without much of the structure and complication that has grown up around it.
Perhaps it's because we know for a fact that sex leads to life.
Bonobos probably don't have unwanted children in their society either.
As a whole I think we need to be a little more responsible.
Vasectomy has no effect on the desire to have sex. My husband had one 7 years ago. (not saying anyone suggested that, just sayin').
I think for humans, because of our complex emotions, sex just for procreation goes more against the grain than the opposite. It can be an incredibly mindful way of connecting with your partner and it enhances trust when you do that and mindfully give yourself to the other person in that way. I had a couple of casual sexual relationships when I was in college. They were not for me, at all. Joining bodies together just is too personal of an act to me to do with just anyone. I enjoy sex, but most of that enjoyment (for me) comes from the relationship and trust with my partner. When that is lacking it's just sacks of flash slapping together and making a mess, LOL.
Actually, bonobo's are a lot more promiscuous than modern humans. They don't seem to have much of a concept of family planning, and orgies are a regular feature. And next to chimpanzees they are one of mankind's closest relatives...
Bonobo sexuality and social life
In Buddhism, it's part of the overall "do no harm" ethos. I find Buddhism's take on sexual morality very interesting, since it allows things that the Big 3 don't, or didn't used to. Like pre-marital sex, for example.
I think what David meant is that the children that result from all that sex are wanted, i.e. cared for and accepted by the group.
Tell me about it.....
Ok, you DO know women are different, don't you.....?
I have long pondered this about this precept and conceptual sadism.
If Bob and Jenny are Buddhists and Bob likes Jenny to spank him - causing much pain #owch! -is that breaking this precept?
I guess there is some distinction between pain and suffering.
I take it you're being humorous? (Lack of emoticons leaves one wondering....)
If the pain causes pleasure, the pleasure is mutual and both parties are ready, willing, able and totally compliant, then the precept is not broken.
Basically sexual misconduct is taken to mean that as long as all parties are participating within their own free will and are happy, not coerced or made to 'perform' then it's all good.
The essence of the 3rd precept is to suspend judgement when evaluating it. That also goes for all the other precepts.
They're guides to Life, not condemnations.
I said holes, not the pipes that lead to the holes.
Unless I missed an upgrade... Does it come out the nose now or something?