Buddhists and Guns
WonderingWanderer
California New
So, I'm aspiring to become a Buddhist and really change the way I interact with the world. However, I have always enjoyed to study various wars and this ultimately lead to me collecting guns. Most of the guns I purchase are from WWII or older, and the only thing I kill is paper targets and my bank account. I enjoy collecting guns because it makes me feel connected to the men who fought in various historical battles and they are tangible reminders of the madness of war and of humanity's most trying times.
My question is, can I become a Buddhist and still collect firearms? I never intend to use them to harm anyone and I am a vegetarian so hunting is of no interest to me. To be totally honest, I don't even know if I'm approaching this whole matter correctly so any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Comments
I think what matters here is intent. If you collect firearms with the intent of never using them, I would think the karmic consequence would be minimal. Ultimately Buddhism allows you a freedom of action, with the awareness that some things are more damaging than others.
But I do think that you would do well to examine the roots of your hobby and feeling for the warriors of years past. You may find that your motivations aren't entirely logical from a Buddhist perspective.
If you've already collected a lot of guns and you're asking this question, you've become more aware of your actions and are questioning the wisdom of maintaining your gun collection, you're already sensing you need to change your courses of action about different things in your life.
You're not doing anything wrong, but ideas are percolating in your head about what might be a better thing to do in regards to your present collection and possible future continuation of it. It has already brought you joy and satisfaction to have it and to study about guns, ammo and wars.
Maybe you'd like to sell and/or donate some of them to museums so that others may enjoy the history, etc.
The only good thing about owning a gun and not using it, is that it stops some other person owning it - and using it.
Other than that, I think they're frankly a testimony to how many victims each gun might have created.
"A toast to the weapons of War: May they Rust in Peace."
@WonderingWanderer. I wonder why you want to feel a connection with warriors of the past. Is there a military connection in your family history?
It is often revealing to look closely and honestly at why we do certain things. I was briefly a member of a shooting club, and quite a lot of the members had gun collections. They seemed to have a fascination with firearms which I can understand, though in some cases it didn't seem entirely healthy.
Do you have personal or family connections to the military?
Is violence and its associated paraphenelia and entertainment potential acceptable?
How about Eastern Martial Arts with their strict ethics and conduct training?
The Buddha came from the ancient ruling/warrior class, practiced archery and wrestling and competitive spirituality before enlightenment ...
Welcome to New Buddhist, gun owners, nihilists, meat eaters and [insert untouchable Buddhist class of choice].
Top Tip
We can change
At the shooting club most people were content to shoot at paper targets, but there were a few who liked to shoot bunnies and other furry creatures. I was struck by the difference.
You can be a Buddhist and do whatever. Your Buddhism is up to you to determine. Many things you will find fall away naturally without mental distress over it as you continue to practice. My life has changed immensely and many things i questioned and clung to have fallen away. I have been a Buddhist for years. I own guns. However, it does not cause me mental distress nor does it make me question whether I am really a Buddhist. If you are feeling unsure how those things work together for you, sit with it for a while and investigate why you are concerned. There is no Buddhist council that is going to show up and tell you you are doing it wrong.
Buddhism is an individual path that you travel alone. If you feel uncomfortable, there is a reason for it. Investigate that. Don't worry what others think. Mine are family heirlooms that have been handed down for generations. We do not hunt nor do we keep them for an illusion of safety. They are triple locked, including biometrically. They would not be accessible even if someone broke in, as I have no desire to shoot anyone or protect my family with violence. We use them occasionally for target practice along with archery.
-I am a Buddhist and sleep with a loaded pistol on my bedside table...
Is having a loaded pistol on your bedside table not a little dangerous/risky?
I agree with @federica . May they all rust in peace. They are too readily available. In some parts its easier for teenagers to buy guns than alcohol. That cannot be right.
-I respect your opinions...
-so, you are a bunny? ;-)
The thing is, they will never go away. At least not in the remotely foreseeable future in the US because they are built into our constitution. So, regardless of how people feel about them, they are here to stay. I am a big proponent of major reforms to our gun ownership laws. They need to be treated similar to our driving privilege. But until they are not a guaranteed right, that is unlikely to happen. Where I live, I know more people who own guns than don't, by far. But because people are raised with them, problems are rare. Murders are few (the last murder here was in the 70s and that was by axe). It's just interesting that the major gun problems are overwhelmingly in the city, but gun ownership is highest in rural areas. Kids are raised to learn about them and respect them from early ages because everyone has them. It removes the "guns are sooo cool" aspect.
Anyhow, of course everyone has their opinion and should share it. But it's hard to understand when you are from another country. I think the monarchy is archaic and stupid, but that is because I don't live with it. It really is all about what you grow up with and learn. However, I don't tend to believe the monarchy is going to go anywhere just because of what I think about it. Nor do I even think it should. It's not my country so I certainly can't use my lack of experience or knowledge there to tell them what I think they should do with it. Tons of room for improvement in our gun ownership laws. But I'd be surprised to see it any time soon.
And I respect your opinions too.
Thank you for your answer. Appreciated. I hope you never have reason to use it.
No, I just like to rabbit. But seriously, how would these bunny-murderers feel if somebody was taking potshots at them while they were out having a picnic, innocently munching on their cucumber sandwiches?
I saw a jolly hunter
I saw a jolly hunter
with a jolly gun
Walking in the country
In the jolly sun
In the jolly meadow
sat a jolly hare
saw the jolly hunter
took jolly care
Hunter jolly eager
sight of jolly prey
forgot gun pointing
wrong jolly way(!)
Jolly hunter jolly head
over heels gone
jolly old safety catch
not jolly on!
Bang! went the jolly gun
Hunter jolly dead
Jolly prey got clean away -
Jolly good I said!
@federica - should not laff ... but I did
No sentient beings were harmed in reading this poem ...
-I haven't hunted/fished/trapped for food in a very long time; "Today I undertake to refrain from killing..." However, in my part of New England (North West Vermont) there are many folks of modest means who hunt/fish/trap to put food on the family table. Were it not for the venison/rabbit/trout/partridge etc, the family would have less food to eat. For these folks, it isn't about sport, it's about nutrition. But your point is well taken; that's why I don't hunt...
-That is my sincere hope...
I eat meat. At this point that is how it will stay at least for a while. I would actually prefer to hunt myself and take on that karma myself rather than think there is less sense of being responsible for the killing of animals because they are purchased neatly packaged from the store. When you have to do all the work yourself, the appreciation for what it takes to bring meat to your table is much higher. And the overall harm far less because you are not harming the entire environment with poor farming practices. If I had the time, I would subsist on my own power as much as I could with large gardens and hunting/fishing. I feel it is more honest even if it means I take on that karma rather than pass it on to someone else.
The 10th of the secondary precepts of the Brama Net sutra forbids the keeping of guns.
Of course laypeople can voluntarily follow it, as they do any precept.
also, you best get rid of your kitchen knives, and not worry about cutting your wood for the winter I guess. Good luck cutting open squash without a sharp instrument!
Lay the squash on a large sheet of plastic, on your bedroom floor.
Climb up onto the wardrobe, and jump on it. You'll get plenty of chunky pieces, @karasti . Honestly, you're not very enterprising for a self-sufficient lass, are you? Do I have to show you everything - ?!
Before enlightenment: Carry water, chop wood
After enlightenment: Carry water, uhhh...
@federica I would break something, and probably not make a mark on the squash! I actually usually put squash for a couple minutes in the pressure cooker, it softens it up well so I don't worry I will lose appendages trying to cut it with a large knife.
The precept doesn't prohibit kitchen knives or axes to chop wood. Even the monks have those.
It is not the possession of the items that is the problem then. It is the intention behind their use. If one can own a knife to cut vegetables despite the precept saying you cannot own things that can kills sentient beings then the same has to apply to everything else on that list. Including guns. I don't kill anything with my guns. So this precept would be no different in intent between my axe and kitchen knives or my guns. It is only when you consider it a weapon that is it problematic (assuming you happen to be taking this precept).
Guns are weapons and only weapons, whereas a kitchen knife is not. Guns were invented for one purpose and one purpose only, to kill. A kitchen knife was not. That's why kitchen knives are allowed and guns are not. A gun is a weapon and can't be considered anything other than a weapon. This is also why owning a gun store would be wrong livelihood and a owning a kitchen store that sells knives would not be.
All of those things are simply tools until the intent of the person handling them comes into play. A kitchen knife is a tool or a weapon. A gun is a tool or a weapon. Same with virtually anything else you can think of, including our own bodies. When I have a gun when I am in the woods, and I shoot it to scare a bear, my intent is not to hurt the bear, because I am not aiming at the bear, or even making it possible to hit the bear. I shoot it to scare the bear to protect myself and my children. And the bear runs. If an intruder knows you have a gun even if you don't have bullets in it, it acts as a powerful deterrent. But there is still no intent to kill. Intention is what creates the problem (and followed by action, of course). Assuming people who have guns in order to kill other beings simply isn't a true assumption.
It doesn't matter if it's true or not, it's still against the precept whereas a kitchen knife is not.
It does matter. Because you are leaving room and exceptions that are not in the precept but refuse to accept the same exception for something else that falls in the same category. It is owning something with the intent to use it to harm others that is what the precept is talking about. Just owning a gun doesn't' assume the intent to use it for harm any more than any other tool does.
That doesn't matter either. Gun = weapon = prohibited. Kitchen knife = kitchen knife = allowed. That's all there is to it really. This is how it's been done for a thousand years and it's not going to change. There are no monks out there who own a gun and say "Well hey, it's ok because I personally don't consider it a weapon" because that would be ridiculous.
Zen Buddhism has a tradition of keeping/using/training with weapons; including monks (e.g. Shaolin). It is also a fact that, due to political unrest and drug related criminal activity there were/are pistol toting Buddhist monks in, among other places, Thailand. The stipulation is the weapons must be used defensively...
And obviously they aren't keeping this precept. But them not following it doesn't change anything regarding it. Thai Buddhism is mostly Theravada anyway, so Mahayana precepts would not apply.
-I should make the point Shaolin is certainly not Theravada. As to whether another Buddhist (monk or lay person) is keeping the precepts, speaking for myself, who am I to say...
Shaolin is a chan temple. What is interesting about Shaolin is there are different levels of ordination. The "warrior monks" don't take all the precepts. They only take 5. Fully ordained monks, aka 200+ precepts, normally don't engage in martial arts training.
how is it that this translates to gun = weapon (since it can't even specifically be named because of the time) but knife /= weapon even though it says it does here? If it's useful for something other than violence, then it's useful, even if other people kill with it. Like knives.
For the same reason why owning a gun store is wrong livelihood whereas owing a kitchen store is not.
Indeed.
Your attitude can resonate or expand from this potential.
http://www.buddhasutra.com/files/potthapada_sutta1.htm
As a very angry, aggressive and at least partially mad practitioner, I also connect to the Greats of Dharma:
https://kappatsupatchi.wordpress.com/2016/02/17/a-very-exceptional-man-bozo-the-screever/
@seeker242 @karasti is actually correct. Read it again -
Kitchen knives and utensils fall into that category.
Besides, it's monks we're talking about, as you pointed out yourself, not a layperson, so I fail to understand why you keep pushing the point. AFAIK, @karasti isn't ordained...
Not for the purposes of the precept they don't. If they did, then a monk could not keep kitchen utensils. But they do keep kitchen utensils and it's not considered a broken precept. Therefore, kitchen knives and utensils don't fall into that category. The fact that monks are not given an offense, for having kitchen knives, is proof of that. A gun would always be considered breaking it. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about it, that's just the way it works in real life.
It's not just monks that keep these precepts. Laypersons also take such precepts if they want.
Nope. The precept quite clearly states "...or devices that can be used to kill sentient beings."
A kitchen knife is very definitely such a device. Have you seen 'fatal attraction'...?
So really, it's the monks who are choosing to break the precept. It's quite clear they do.
And as laypeople we have -entirely acceptably - chosen to not follow those precepts, quite clearly laid down predominantly for Monks, so I really can't see the point in you continuing to argue this, all the while trying to move the goalposts to prove yourself right.
Enough of this, already.
(The Mod has spoken).
Worth noting that dealing in guns would be wrong livelihood for a Buddhist.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.177.than.html
But selling kitchen utensils is OK.
The mind can also be used as a "Weapon of Mass Destruction"
Pass the carrots.....
Sorry, that's not how it's followed...by anyone...anywhere. The number of monasteries that interpret it that way, is zero. Including anything that could be used to kill sentient beings would be ridiculous. You could kill a sentient being with a pencil, that doesn't mean a pencil breaks the precept....