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Is Buddhism just like the others?
Mingle
Veteran
I am a person who is very critical of religion. Yet, I can't help but feel am I any better being a Buddhist (probably not a great one though)?It feels like faith to me . I am satisfied that meditation may bring certain benefits but things like Nirvana and enlightenment I just don't know. They feel like a belief to me. Are people achieving this today? Have any of you guys felt anything like it? Sorry for bad articulation I'm having to be brief.
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I've had moments of Vipassana, I know for definite that the body is not self or belongs to me, there was a joy in it that lasted for hours. Like the Buddha said test the teachings. Sometimes I feel like giving up on it for a few hours or a day or two but I always come back.
I think the difference for me -- particularly after a very recent very bad time in my life -- is that more than ever before I realized that God does nothing for you between your birth and your death. Buddhism puts the responsibility on myself, and whether I thrive or suffer is, to a large extent, up to me. No more fairy tales.
As long as we keep the foundational teachings and practices in mind, everything else is immaterial. It can be important to us and help guide us in learning and exploring, but it's of no use to really being mindful and compassionate. But we can do both I believe
Moments of clarity like nothing else, yes, I've experienced that. So far, in my experience, meditation helps to bring them about more frequently and for longer duration. Why worry about enlightenment? Or faith? or belief? It's not necessary.
When I realised emptiness I had a feeling of joy flow through me that I had never experienced before or since. It lasted about 30 seconds.
If that's enlightenment, I'd like to order some more please
@Bunks, yeah I've experienced that, however I heard from a teacher that if the mind was purer their would be no joy, just a calm appreciation.
That's not what I have heard.
A Mahayana teacher said when someone realises emptiness they'll experience either great joy or great fear. I had the former obviously!
They did say that this would then go away and the mind settle into calmness.
Buddhism encourages you to explore your thoughts and beliefs. You don't have to accept anything you are not comfortable with or do not find to be true. You are free to accept or reject any aspect of the religion while still being a part of it. By learning its fundamentals, you become much more open minded and open to the possibility that the more 'out there' ideas might not be as inconceivable as they once appeared. You also learn that you don't need to accept OR reject an idea, you can just let it be.
Other religions tell you what you should believe, they're black and white and you either go all in or not at all.
In that respect they are very different. The other key difference for me is that in Buddhism there is no deity or creator being at the head of the religion, this very thing gives other religions an element of the supernatural to me and makes them impossible to believe in.
Sure! Until you actually attain it, it can't be anything other than a faithful belief, in your own mind anyway. However, faith in Buddhism normally arises from accumulated experiences rather than blindly following. So, it is like the others, but at the same time, it's not.
For example, you can personally verify in your own life that clinging causes suffering and when you stop clinging, the suffering goes away. Therefore, it's quite reasonable to conclude that if all clinging was stopped, then all suffering would go away, because you have already personally witnessed that clinging is the cause of suffering. Now you believe (AKA have faith) that all suffering can go away (AKA enlightenment) even though it hasn't happened yet.
Even traditional teachings (the one I remember) says different people practice for different reasons. This tradition mentions 3 that are typical. One of them is just to have a good life. To try to have a good life. That's fine to have that as your motivation and purpose. The other two if I recall are to escape being reborn again in samsara after death. The third is to help all beings to escape rebirth/suffering and be happy.
Other religions encourage you to cling to them, and them alone. They discourage questioning most facets of the teachings in them. They tell you what you are supposed to be. Buddhism is largely what you make it. Buddhism doesn't care if you believe in it or not. It doesn't care if you arrive at the same conclusions and experiences Buddha did. It says "This guy did this. Here's what he found. Try it out, see what you think. If it's not for you shrug that's ok." I don't know of any major religion that is like that. They often tell you "This is the one right way, and if you aren't on it, you are screwed."
"Ehipassiko" @Mingle ...(Thus have I heard)
We, according to Sufism and some aspects of Buddhism are not yet a Real person. Being critical of religion is just what some do to be a person ...
Some are not much of anything ... In Buddhism our feelings and experience leading to persona are empty of inherent existence.
Then we have made it in our own image. God?
Benefits? Not really a satisfactory understanding or depth of experience is possible through surface skimming. Nirvana/enlightenment is beyond 'benefits'.
People including some here have gone beyond belief. If not, there is a solution. Where others are will not help us with our nature. That is up to us.
Life is like that.
Buddhism is many sided, it has many traditions... if you want to approach it from a secular angle, that is totally fine. And inherent in the saying of "test the teachings, and if you find them not to be true discard them" there is the idea that any part of the teachings can be discarded.
Within any one of the major teachings of Buddhism can be found all the others, supposedly. So it doesn't matter very much whether you start with mindfulness, suffering, metta meditation or something else. Although there does come a point where you need to actually practice, meditation rather than just knowledge.
Do you see Buddhism as a religion ? You may want to look into "Secular Buddhism"
"Some secular Buddhists believe Buddha was a historical figure and his authenticity is of importance to their practice.
Some secular Buddhists don’t believe Buddha was a historical figure, and view Gotama as a myth and the teachings as full of wisdom, and some nonsense.
Some secular Buddhists have never thought about whether Gotama is a historical person or a myth, and some don’t care either way.
Some secular Buddhists practice rituals they learned in traditional Buddhism, while other secular Buddhists reject those very same rituals.
Some secular Buddhists believe all the teachings should be approached with scientific scrutiny, tested out in the Lab of Life, and they let go of anything in the suttas that can not be practiced in life.
Some secular Buddhists believe in rebirth or reincarnation, while many do not.
Some secular Buddhists believe one can reach a fixed state of enlightenment and end suffering completely, while others do not.
Some secular Buddhists view enlightenment as moments of being awake, mindful in the present without mental embellishments and the suffering that creates.
Some secular Buddhists believe it’s unBuddhist to call oneself a Buddhist of any sort."
Which for the most part is similar to "Natural Buddhism"
"for those not inclined to believe in the supernatural, natural Buddhism points to a practice and an awakening that does not require believing in rebirth, ultimate realities, miracles, heavens, and hells, but instead teaches about the value of peace and letting go. While supernatural beliefs may be useful for some people, for those who cannot believe what they don’t believe, both natural Buddhism and The Book of Eights teach that to be at peace, one must let go of all clinging, including clinging to both natural and supernatural Buddhism"
As a 'self' no "I" personally have not...However as 'non-self' yes often....
......Also....
~Sensei Sevan Ross~
_"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."
Never give up the fight @Mingle
Just when we thought it was safe/straightforward/easy ... Dharma deconstructs itself. Emptiness is form and form is emptiness, or to put it another way ...
When bad omens arise, receive them as auspicious;
Whatever thoughts arise are the treasury of bliss.
When illness arises, this brings benefit;
Whatever arises are a treasury of Bliss.
When Death occurs, take it onto the path;
The Lord of Death is a treasury of bliss.
Mahasiddha Padampa Sangye
https://www.lionsroar.com/when-the-teacher-fs-up-whats-a-buddhist-to-do/
... ay caramba. Easy for you to experience Mx Padampa, you are obviously some kind of Buddhist fanatic brought back to Life ...
@lobster Great video. It reminded me of this one I watched the other day from a Pure Land buddhist I follow:
This is my humble understanding which uses the trikaya (i like triads):
This entrusting is not a belief. Other Power is trusting in the dharmakaya. Self Power is trusting in the ego. the dharmakaya is manifested in Amida Buddha (who is by then the sambhogakaya). the nembutsu brings it all together, turning human beings into a vehicle of the sambhogakaya, which helps us realize the dharmakaya.
(and how did we come to find Amida? through the nirmanakaya Siddhartha)
i do not think it is a belief in something ephemeral. it is an abstracted way of looking at the ultimate dharma. by using this viewpoint we use love and prostration to attain peace, instead of trying to use the self which isn't there anyway. despite its convoluted facets, there is a reason Pure Land is popular among "simple/different" people. it was made for us.
he reads that nothing is as evil to mitigate the effects of the nembutsu. i do not think that means the nembutsu is all powerful and mystical. rather the nembutsu is the greatest equalizer. no one is so evil to mitigate the fact they are a suffering being. they are still included in Amida's vow.
I think the big deal about Buddhism, is when those who've had especially trying times (big or small) see for themselves the rational, practical reasons why they went through what they did, and that it's not only okay to send a search party down into the depths of one's self, and how to keep calm and maintain. That is what studying and reading about the Buddha has done for me (and the job is never really done). It's not to worry about 'enlightenment'. It'll probably happen when I'm not looking, heheh.
I wouldn't have missed this trip for the world. Amen.
I have also never been one to follow blindly. It is encouraged and even considered appropriate to question teachings and teachers. Having an open mind and being receptive I think is also important.
Realizations that happen when I am not “looking” tend to be the most powerful. Little bits of clarity that present themselves to me will leave me with a smile and a very peaceful feeling. I never know when, where or how they might happen but they do happen. It is these realizations of truth, the little pieces of the puzzle falling into place that drive me to continue my practice.
For some reason I keep thinking of those pictures that look like a blur of color, that if you squint at them long enough a 3D picture forms.
Like Richdawson I do not follow blindly. My acceptance of Buddhism has been a slow realization of truth meditating on my pillow one breath at a time.
I agree with the not-blind leading those who want to see.
So for example it is perfectly sensible to study, listen to sangha, gurus, lamas, a tree
etc. but we must also keep our wits about us or we could end up with shaved head, orange robes and one begged meal a day considering lilies... 
Matthew 6:25-34
In dharma we verify by pillow/experience/taste.
Don't worry about Nirvana or enlightenment. We are taught that until we have becomed enlightened, we cannot conceive of what it is like.
Also, as a Buddhist, don't be "goal-oriented" (focused on the end-result). Rather, pay attention to the process of practicing Buddhism .. to where you are in this very moment and how you are relating to yourself, to others, to all that is around you. Because this IS what Buddhism is about.
As for belief .. belief is not knowledge. And often has nothing to do with knowledge. After all, centuries ago people believed the Earth was flat .. but it wasn't and belief did not make it so.
As for my understanding of Buddhism ... every 5 to 10 years, as I continue my practice, my understanding of it changes. Not so much a complete alteration, as a deeper understanding, like peeling off layers of an onion.
Am I enlightened? No no. But I have changed so much, internally and externally, as a result of my practices. In ways that are more valuable than anything else life can offer me.
So find your teacher, follow their instructions on doing the practice. And be patient. Buddhism is about now, not about some possible achievement in some future.
No.
"Bhikkhus [monks, the Buddha said, holding a fleck of dung on his fingernail], if even if that much of permanent, everlasting, eternal individual selfhood/metaphysical being (Pali: attabhava), not inseparable from the idea of change, could be found, then this living the holy life could not be taught by me."
Samyutta Nikaya III 144
Looking at Buddhism from a historical perspective, it is easy to find commonalities between Buddhism and other religions. Are there elements of faith present in many Buddhist sects? Unquestionably yes. Just as the Christian saints are often polytheistic gods in disguise (St. Brigid of Ireland, for example is likely a Christianization of a Celtic goddess), so too does every Buddhist tradition have its own degree of corruption. It is inevitable.
I am not a religious person. But you don't have to be a religious person to consider the ideas, thoughts, and perspectives that are presented in a particular faith. You can weigh them yourself and see what makes sense to you. Most Buddhist sects in particular are open to this sort of secular inquiry. Unlike the Abrahamic religions, Buddhism welcomes scrutiny, questioning, and critical thinking.
You do not have to believe in nirvana or enlightenment to agree with the idea that the mind creates the world we inhabit, that craving leads to suffering, and that it is possible to achieve a state of mind where these influences are lessened or eliminated.
First, understand that everything you think you know about Buddhism is very highly likely a misunderstanding of sorts. Compound that realization with all the tips and quips you receive in an online discussion group and your confusion is off to the races. Second, Buddhism, although it is called a religion, is only religious by virtue of the "people" who practice it. Buddhism can be taken as a theistic hullabaloo or as a practical secular/psychological path to awaken from the ignorance that got us to this point. That is not meant to be pejorative, rather empathetic. For over 2500 years practitioners have been using the techniques of Buddhism to work with the mind to overcome - well - the mind. And, okay, overcoming may cause some to bridle and insist that acceptance holds more sway than overcoming. Either way, there is no supreme being central to Buddhism and the emphasis is upon learning, self reliance and disciplined, sustained practice on and off the cushion. For all that, there is a promise of enlightenment or awakening with the caveat that one should not expect anything. I.E., do it for doing its sake and you might be surprised by the results. When the surprise wears off, resume practice - go back to work. We come to Buddhism from an ingrained Judeo-Christianized culture that has had its influence on even the staunchest atheist among us. Taking that into consideration is important when trying to understand what this "enlightenment" shit is all about. It ain't about paradise and the pearly gates or salvation! Maybe we in the West don't really get it as the Tathagata intended, but Western Buddhists along the complete spectrum will die trying. Don't give up. It isn't certain that these are actually Siddhārtha Gautama's actual words, but they certainly carry some weight.....
I would say Buddhism is not like the others. It is non-theistic, it is inquiry-based, it focuses on the nature of mind. These things set it apart from other religions, and my experience has been it is transformational even if you don't make it to Nirvana. Peace is within reach on this path.
Most major, prominent and currently-followed Religions = "Out There".
Buddhism = "In Here".
Ideally.
As I said to the Buddha only this morning, 'I don't talk to dead people'.
I have met some closed minded and unwelcoming Buddhists. Not on Newbuddhist incidentally ... Fortunately I am trained by Bodhi Mathew http://biblehub.com/matthew/10-14.htm
However I have nothing to evangelise or criticise, except my thinking ... As the Buddha said to me before he died:
(see previous quotes from @IronRabbit)
Well not according to Buddhist scholars Robert E. Buswell Jr. and Donald S. Lopez Jr
"Many great Buddhist figures state unequivocally that enlightenment is accessible only to those who follow the Buddhist path. One can get only so far (generally, rebirth in heaven) by following other religions; only Buddhism has the path to liberation from suffering. All roads may lead to the base camp, but only Buddhism leads to the summit."
"Link" (kindly provided by none other than our very own @lobster ...from another thread)
I can't speak about anything but Theravadan Buddhism, but the Buddhism I see on this site, as compared to the Buddhism I see at an authentic Theravadan temple...well, the two environments bear little resemblance to each other. It may be the difference between conceptual Buddhism and Buddhism as practiced, just as the monks I know are quick to point out the difference between Buddhism and "culturism" (my term).
Well... it doesn't seem to be strictly true... there are those who reach through non-Buddhist Tantra, there are those who appear to reach through advaita Vedanta, there are people like Ramana Maharshi of whom it is not clear - there seem to be a few different paths. It was once said of Osho by a Japanese visitor that he was a master of the seven paths.
True @Kerome ....
http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/dharma.html
"The Buddha gave some remarkably modern-sounding advice just before his passing away on how to approach the teachings, called the Four Reliances:"
""Rely on the teaching, not on the person;
Rely on the meaning, not on the words;
Rely on the definitive meaning, not on the provisional;
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary mind."
"The ten aspects that one should consider when listening to spiritual teachings"
"Do not believe a spiritual teaching just because:
1. it is repeatedly recited,
2. it is written in a scripture,
3. it was handed from guru to disciple,
4. everyone around you believes it,
5. it has supernatural qualities,
6. it fits my beliefs anyway,
7. it sounds rational to me,
8. it is taught by a respectable person,
9. it was said to be the truth by the teacher,
10. one must defend it or fight for it.
However, only when it agrees with your experience and reason, and when it is conducive to the good and gain of oneself and all others, then one should accept the teachings, and live up to them."
So yes it's possible that others teachers may have reached enlightenment through a slightly different approach and what they taught may also sets their followers on the path to enlightenment....
I guess The proof of the Dharma comes out in the Practice
It is what you make it.
I've been exploring Buddhism for nearly 40 years and I still feel like I'm scraping the surface.
Perhaps it means that you're approaching things from the wrong end? I.e. Learning rather than working on oneself? Although I know what you mean, the body of Buddhist knowledge is vast, I took a first serious look at the Lankavatara Sutra this morning.
If i look at how far I've come though, then Buddhism has had a significant impact in the last three years, I've renounced a few things and let go of others, and am working on better mental happiness habits and reducing my anxieties. That makes me feel a lot more positive.
I think it's more that I have practised in a wide range of different schools and traditions, and they are actually very different, like different perspectives on.... something. I'm still not sure what the "something" really is, I've had the odd glimpse but it is very elusive. I'm not complaining though, it's been a fascinating journey.
https://www.thoughtco.com/tathata-or-suchness-450014
As a western consumer, Iam always looking for the best product that are best suited for my needs.
Here is a list of the top 20 most widely practiced religions in the world today:
Christianity (2.1 billion)
Islam (1.3 billion)
Nonreligious (Secular/Agnostic/Atheist) (1.1 billion)
Hinduism (900 million)
Chinese traditional religion (394 million)
Buddhism 376 million
Primal-indigenous (300 million)
African traditional and Diasporic (100 million)
Sikhism (23 million)
Juche (19 million)
Spiritism (15 million)
Judaism (14 million)
Bahai (7 million)
Jainism (4.2 million)
Shinto (4 million)
Cao Dai (4 million)
Zoroastrianism (2.6 million)
Tenrikyo (2 million)
Neo-Paganism (1 million)
Unitarian-Universalism (800,000)
Of all the religions listed above, I dont have enough knowledge to judge them (what is Zoroastrianism?).
Maybe there is a better option out there? Maybe tripadvisor could help us out, reading all the reviews from happy and frustrated consumers?
I did read dhammpada when I was 14 years old, and after that I got a crush on buddhism, because it was so "down to earth" and with tons of good advices that you can use right away, and with no need to belive in a special GOD.
After all @Mingle its your choice
@vinlyn Just curious here, but is it really possible to compare what Buddhism you can "see" here versus what you can see and sense and pick up in person at a temple? If you were to try to compare the 2, what would true Buddhism look like on an internet forum? Is it possible to see it only in text? Just curious your thoughts, not making any assumptions or anything. What does Buddhism look like when you can only view it online?
I, too, find it very different when I am in the presence of my teacher or other monks and dedicated students. But I don't find Buddhism lacking here, it just depends (in part) on which topics you happen to be reading. It would be pretty hard for me to judge my own Buddhism just by reading my own posts. To attempt to do so for anyone else would be near impossible for me.
@Namada do you think it is appropriate to choose a religion according to the same criteria that you would use to choose a consumer product?
I think finding the right religion is something like choosing a book of poetry - it has to be something that appeals to the heart. The difficult part is, you don't know your needs, and the views of others are going to be very little help.
My view is that the spiritual journey is something between unfolding and discovering what you are, letting go of very many things, and feeding those impulses that are beneficial to your journey.
Good point. Internet Buddhism is really a rather strange thing, and there are some rather strange people, me included!
@Kerome dont take it litteraly, religion and a consumer product is not the same ofcourse, but my point was to put all the religons like a menu you can choose from, all the information is out there and avilabel for everyone. But it is easy to get lost. Better to dig deep in one you "belive" in.
I'm not too sure, choosing a religion as if it's from a menu just feels wrong. You might pick the biggest one, but something like Christianity is much more difficult to get something worthwhile out of. You can point at the mystics and people like Meister Eckhart who have blazed a trail, but if you've been caught up in say Protestantism it can be quite a long journey.
You'd almost have to do a study in comparative religion just to make a choice. And I doubt many schools teach comparative religion to their kids.
I know HHDL says it's better to stay as something you're born into, but it seems to me there is much to be learnt from a form of Buddhism or even an Advaita master such as Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj.
Still I am on a not-judging jag so will leave it there.
Just curious.
The world has changed since various religions were first invented. Science has discovered new things, based on which all religions have had to make adjustments. Buddhism has to change a few things based on neuroscience, Xtianity has to change a few things because of cosmology, etc. Point is, no religion is static. All religions have been forced to change based on scientific advancement.
Is this not proof that no religion is either entirely true or false? That being the case, would it not be better to choose from ALL religions instead of claiming to belong to ONE religion?
Just food for thought.
Good point @techie
For example I will have:
Sounds like a plan ...
Next time you're in a shopping mall/crowded place, just shout "HEY WEIRDO! " and see how many people stop and look to see whose calling "them"
We are all a little weird.... some more weirder than others...
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya"
~The Buddha~ (Perhaps this was his preemptive 'mind' strike at those who cling)
Also... ~Nietzsche~ said something along similar lines....
"Everything evolves will come to mean nothing is true"
And what I've personally taken from the Buddha Dharma......
"Change is inevitable...Suffering is optional"
So if you can't beat it...join it and just go with the flow of change...
Perhaps it is best not to cling to any religious doctrine .... and just "Ehipassiko" see for oneself
You can't have 'more weirder'.
You can have 'more weird'.
You can have 'weirder'.
But you can' use the term 'more' with something that is intended to already BE 'more'.
Said the weirdest Mod of all.
Um...that's weird