Something is missing?
Jeroen
Luminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlands Veteran
What my buddhist practice has brought me is a lot of peace and insight into my negative qualities, a deeper understanding of suffering and a great deal of compassion for others. These are things I am grateful for, and it has returned me to a certain quiet space which has been very appropriate to the phase my life has been in.
But at the same time I feel something has been missing. It’s only been recently that reading a book of Osho’s has been helpful in putting it into words. In that book Osho talks about saying “yes!” to existence, celebrating it, and that one of the things he looks forward to is seeing his sannyasins become “blissful, ecstatic, fulfilled”. That passage made me realise that that aspect of celebration was something I missed in buddhism.
I think in many ways they are strangely complimentary, the dharma and what Osho teaches. I certainly wouldn’t want to miss the words of the Buddha, but sometimes it feels a little dry compared to the teachings of the sufi’s or the poetry of a Kahlil Gibran.
Have you ever found something in the words of another teacher which made you think, I miss that in buddhism?
Comments
I stayed at a Hare Krishna place for six months, and they were very celebratory. It wasn't my style. I much prefer the calm, stillness and austerity in Buddhism. I think the problem with the 'YEAH' lifestyle is that, if it's not based on deep realisations, i.e. if your bliss belongs to samsara and not Nirvana, then it is temporary, it will pass, you'll probably feel more down when the high passes because of the high, and you'll probably be more motivated to strive to have it again and then cling to it... in other words, it encourages all the mental traits that will prevent you from true realisations. That is, if it comes from samsara. If, however, such bliss and joy comes from an awakened, then, well, there's nothing to be said, and, of course, crack on and enjoy the show! For now, I prefer a mind of equanimity... no highs, no lows, no chasing, and no clinging. That's why Buddhists be how Buddhist be.
Yeah. That's part of my interest in things like Christian monasticism, liberation theology, and writers like Thomas Merton.
Buddhism can be dry, unemotional (Dispassionate - pah ... who are we kidding?) but it is a head based system ...
I would encourage passion for dharma, love for the Boddhisatvas, body based meditation and the influence of mystical paths, psychological and secular well being etc.
I was involved with Secular Sufism, which is heart based.
My feeling is dharma changes according to what is missing and what is required. A bit like us ...
That is true, and clinging is something to beware of. At the same time, bliss is not something to be avoided, it is generally a good sign if you’re not forcing things. So I don’t think celebration is necessarily a bad thing.
Yes, exactly. In Buddhism the learning all goes into the head, and the practice then goes beyond.
Sounds great, but I’ve found that falling in love is something you don’t really control. If you’re lucky you get to fall in love with a teacher, what Osho calls the “master-disciple love affair”, otherwise you can try and fish love out of the tangle of a romantic involvement.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there. I don’t think that what a person needs is strictly defined by one path, we are all individuals and some people may need a little of this and a little of that. I think you have to be sensitive to what you are drawn to
The Dharma
Very much so... Change is inevitable...Suffering is optional
I don't have the time these days to comment as much as I want. But I wanted to mention I've found that, while Buddhist and Christian monastic traditions share similar practices and insights, Christianity's focus on charity community, social justice, and loving others as ourselves helps to balance out the strictness and austerity of my Theravada practice. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with finding other teachers and traditions that inspire you and help you have a happier life. And I also don't think there's anything wrong with enjoying being alive. There is suffering. And we can address the causes of that suffering and suffer less. But we can also enjoy the beauty, joy, and love that life also has to offer, and share that with others.
I recall a young Sri Lankan guy staying at my local Monastery stating that we Westerners "take the dhamma too seriously" or words to that affect.
Ajahn Brahm said something similar to me when I met him...
We need to (en)lighten up a little!!!
Agree with both of you, I love my Bodhisattvas and mystical writings and poetry of all creeds. I feel that Buddhism is a constantly evolving and wonderfully creative source, and whatever floats your raft is cool!
That’s very likely part of it, that we perhaps take the 4NT and get disheartened by the suffering, having been conditioned by centuries of Christianity to treat spirituality as something very serious? Who knows what it is in the western psyche which encourages that.
Maybe that’s why I’m interested in traditions which encourage an inner celebration, because it seems so counter to the engineer’s mindset in which I was educated. Being sensible all the time is also a kind of quiet death, I’m beginning to realise.
I began my Buddhism in the Tibetan tradition and generally they are very happy, exuberant and often outgoing.
With the Theravada tradition I'm involved in now everything seems to be about being mindful or done in silence and generally oriented towards intellectual culture. I'm not an extrovert so I only really care to socialize around an activity, where that can carry the interactive load. They have things like book clubs and writers groups, activities oriented towards intellectual culture, so if something is missing for me it would be a Dudeist bowling night at the bowling alley a block away from the center, or maybe a game night where we play table top games with a Buddhist theme.
They're starting remodeling on their newish retreat property, so I'll be volunteering a week there, its going to be done in a mindful manner with 3 sittings a day and I don't know if it will be done in silence or not. I'd like to be able to get to know people in a manner that is somewhat comfortable for me so I hope not.
Odd coincidence @kerome, I am reading 'advice not given' by Dr Mark Epstein at present. He talks a lot about the way meditation can be used to shut down feelings and how this is sometimes encouraged by the idea of them being 'defilements' - a quote;
'in the guise of openess emotions are shut down. Feelings are pushed away. A kind of joylessness masquerades as equinamity.'
He is both a psychotherapist and a Buddhist, I find it interesting how he combines them! Great book.
I want to visit wise rabbi but usually settle for our local wild rabbits. I find the wise druids are now feeding the trees they once grew, grove and grooved to. My local Christian monasteries and convents have mostly closed. Maybe I would speak more silence if I listened ... Time to draw the curtains and let the Light speak ...
Talking of wise rabbis, 'from the book to the book' is full of them!
'thus I would circle the earth in order to die of my images. There are truths that rule over sunny estates. I would meet them all. For the time it takes to formulate a question I would take advantage of their sound company. I would adopt their reason and their perspective. '
Edgmond Jabes, a wonderful writer for the mystical inclined
I am sure it is a better read than 'The Book of the Book' by Idries Shah, which is one of the few of his books I never had time for ...
Something regurgitated for the fish eaters ...
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/20919/question-for-christian-buddhists-or-buddhists-christians
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/16681/gnostic-christianity
Thanks @kando, I am interested in a perspective without or beyond reason, which in this sense is unreasonable ...
So what about Buddhist mysticism? No such thing? Missing?
https://m.wikihow.com/Be-a-Mystic
Personally I think that waiting for bliss or practicing Buddhism to attain bliss, or enlightenment or anything else, is a mistake. For me, Buddhism is not about getting something or somewhere but is learning about and removing the "layers" the prevent us from experiencing reality. Bliss is an emotion that may come and go. And that is that. We suffer waiting for it to come and we suffer waiting for it to leave. Reality is boring only if you think about it.
IMO bodhicitta = noetic faculty.
My partner is an Anglican but he reads Bodhisattvacharyāvatāra and sees little difference between it and a contemplative Christian text.
Dharma Practice ( along with other things) is a Path to Bliss
...and Bliss just being one of many by-products of the practice....nothing more ...nothing less....when it comes to the Buddha Dharma ...nothing is missing ...well for me anyhow ...but I have been known to miss the mark
There is Dukkha! There is the cause of Dukkha ! There is the cessation of Dukkha! The 8FP !
Kabbalah - and not the crap Madonna peddles. My Wednesday night classes are a treat for me (plus our festivals are generally very joyful - aside from Yom Kippur, which was last Tuesday)
That’s a line of thinking that I stuck to as well for a while, until I realised that the not-pursuing of bliss was also a choice that I was making that was limiting how I lived my life. And when presented with living with some bliss in life or only equanimity, I preferred experiencing some bliss. It is tricky sometimes to see how you limit yourself.
Lots of mystical thinking in Tibetan Buddhism @lobster, at least I find so, there is for me a heavy dose of Shamanism and magic in their reading of psychological states. In Chan and Zen nature becomes a mystical experience, even everyday life does, but then that is probably true of all such intense experiences. Poetry manages, at its best, to map out those strange territories
No nothing missing in the teaching of Sakyamuni
@Kerome, I think it also helps to understand that in some quarters, Osho is not only disregarded as an Buddhist teacher worth his salt, but he is also derided and heavily criticised.
On another Buddhist forum, he is positively vilified and one might even say ridiculed.
He is certainly, whatever opinion exists, not a teacher of Buddhism in the traditional, conventional or even respected sense.
He does tend to meld, mix and mash up some diverse views from other traditions, schools of thought or even religions, and presents them in palatable, ear-pleasing ways.
While his words may seem agreeable, they shouldn't be taken as verified transmission or educated and well-informed accurate teachings.
They are more a blend of messages focused on his own interpretations and views, and need to be
assessed by comparison to the Buddha's teachings and what Buddhism tells us.
if you feel that 'something is missing' I would venture to suggest that "listening" to osho hs served merely to confuse you, rather than reveal anything.
While his comment is somewhat relatively blunt and direct, I tend to agree with @Amanaki.
There's nothing Missing in Buddhism. If you feel there is, either you're missing it, or you may not have fully understood it.
It’s perfectly understood that Osho’s words are nobody’s but his own, and though he has spoken on some Buddhist teachings he is not affiliated with any Buddhist stream.
The fact that he may be vilified on another Buddhist forum does not particularly surprise me, as his viewpoints are often counter to the established order.
But if I look at Buddhists in their many and varied incarnations, I see learned people looking for enlightenment but with an eyepoint to escaping suffering, not looking to celebrate life and love. It’s dry and focused on the negative aspects of life. That is the point I was making, and to my mind, still a valid one.
It’s interesting that modern Buddhist teachers such as Thich Nhat Hanh and Matthieu Richard have moved somewhat away from teaching about suffering, and instead have chosen to focus on mindfulness and happiness.
To really find the happiness and joy one must let go of the attachments to human life, meaning letting go of what make one suffer, example letting go of gree, anger, dispear, jealosy, clinging and so on. when one has let go then the true happiness arise.
I don't know. I've never found joy to be lacking in the teachings except as an opposite to -and so a catalyst for- suffering.
It's the emptiness of things that let them happen at all. If things didn't pass, we wouldn't arise and we would never get the chance to take a sunset for granted and poo-poo its beauty for the sake of all that is wrong in the world.
All we have to do is get over the disease of us and "them". The distinction of self as separate from the world is an illusion. This is not the end of self awareness but the beginning.
Then you have completely misinterpreted or misunderstood the Buddha's teachings, while TNH and Matthieu Ricard haven't.
On the contrary, they have completely implemented the teachings and are thus free from suffering. By escaping the fetters and attachments of dhukka, they have divested themselves of Suffering. CONSEQUENTLY, there is Joy and serenity in their Mindful Happiness.
Your point isn't valid, because you're incorrect.
I agree with the clawed crustacean... when was the last time you saw buddhists give a dance party, or a class on just simply joyful painting, or a musical get-together. All the head-based dharma can become too much.
The whole procession, which the Buddha often recommends, from letting go of attachments to seeing the cyclical nature of samsara to dispassion to nirvana (the snuffing out of a candle), is not the most zesty, lively, celebratory sequence of events. How many people get to the end-point?
Somebody needs to read The Joy of Living by Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche.
But that's just it. You don't NEED to get to the end-point to live joyously and be happy, serene, contented and free of suffering.
You can do that right now. I do.
I'm not ordained; there's a whole host of 'rules' for Monks and nuns but 5 we adhere to. And I think it is beholden upon the householder to celebrate the sheer joy of being alive. In any way we want.
We celebrate the Buddha's birthday, don't we? So why not celebrate ours?
...Hmm a permanently abiding entity called the self perhaps
It has a house to live in, but it often likes to roam
With all the lights left on inside...but no one's ever home
Have you tried looking for it ?
Meanwhile @mindatrisk said ...
As a Theravadin, Atheist and general purpose heretic, I was examining the four reliances ...
https://zennist.typepad.com/zenfiles/2009/06/the-four-reliances.html
http://www.sapphyr.net/buddhist/buddhist-quotes.htm
Wish I had a pure Wisdom Mind. Something else to throw away in the attachments bin ...
I think I am missing Nothing again ...
What is a gal to do? Oh ... Isn't something always missing? Ain't it the dukkha! ?
Maybe... but it does strike me that the things that moved the Buddha most in his search for enlightenment — old age, illness, and death — are an old man’s problems. Most people tend to be healthy up until age 70 or so, and modern medicine can keep you functioning for a decade or two afterwards.
Given good health and a body that is functioning well, what happens to the focus on suffering? Is one not supposed to live in the present moment, where gratitude for eyes and ears and memory in good condition raise happiness in us?
Thich Nhat Hanh says that any skilful mindfulness practitioner will be able to raise joy through these means, and that that is a part of the anapanasati breathing practice.
Suffering isn't physical. Suffering is Mind-Wrought and includes anything and everything that occurs day-to-day... Suffering is anything between finding out that all the milk has gone, and nobody's replaced it, to seeing your house consumed by fire, flood or tornado and losing everything you have ever owned. Including the full bottle of milk in the fridge.
How have you come so far and believed suffering is only physical...??
As we all know we can be a sukha for dukkha
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukha
Sukha is the smallest wheel of all. It revolves around the axis and is the pivot whole of the dharma spokes ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukkha
I’m not insensitive to there being mental categories of suffering, but I was making the point that what motivated Siddhartha when he started his journey were traditionally old age, illness and death. The rest of the story about dukkha came later. It’s worth ruminating over.
True. However it is a case of finding and applying. Emphasis if you like.
For example there are Christian, Islamic and Jewish mystics who have a depth of understanding that clearly is applicable for some of us slackers and dharma fanatics [lobster raises guilty claw].
i try to enjoy my happy feelings as much as they stick around. i love feeling whole and i enjoy my memories, too. the key is to not try and keep hold of it and just be with the good feelings.
what on earth would be the point of life to just have a sense of empty detachment to good feelings.
i can endulge and roll around pleasent memories all day. its when i demand that they stay around or get depressed when feeling changes that problems can occur!
No. What motivated the Buddha when he started his journey, was seeing a Monk, who seemed serene, calm and contented in the face of what the Buddha had already witnessed as inevitable: old age, sickness and death. Seeing these three he realised that nobody - High, low, rich poor, man, woman, fat, thin, tall, short - could avoid these three states. This was dhukka. That was 'now'. Not 'later'.
It was seeing the Monk that made him realise there was a possible way to meet with the inevitable, in a better frame of Mind.
The Monk is why he was motivated to leave his life as a Prince. Not the three previous experiences.
i do think that buddhism can quickly get cult like (like all religions), where before you know what you spend all day trying to control thoughts, feelings, and obsessing about fitting experience into the teaching. that is why i am a bad buddhist.
I think it is the Buddhist approach to address suffering and happiness primarily from the inside out. If we can release and heal our own knots then the natural expression of that can be joyful to serious depending on the situation. Not that there isn't much merit in addressing external manifestations, its just that there are so many (10,000) things and the world is all so complex and mysterious that it's difficult to make them all work well.
There is a delicate balance between striving to adhere to the teachings and over-thinking and forcing things. I like Thich Nhat Hanh’s approach of being mindful of things, and inquiring into the beginnings of feelings especially.
There is room for bad Buddhists as well as good ones