Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Be Nice
Jeffrey
Veteran
https://heritage.umich.edu/stories/the-prisoners-dilemma/#chapter_5
^ talks about the famous "prisoners dilemma" and investigates it with computer designed simulations that happened in late 70s game theory.
And ends with:
Avoid unnecessary conflict by cooperating as long as your opponent does;
If your opponent betrays you without provocation, respond in kind — once;
Then forgive the betrayal and cooperate again;
Be clear and predictable. That is, always follow steps 1, 2 and 3, so your opponent comes to know how you act and can plan on that basis.
4
Comments
I heard about that programming contest to come up with the optimum "good" strategy. Its kind of surprising how well it applies to real life. "Be nice. Be ready to forgive. But don’t be a pushover."
I heard about it here, you might find it interesting. Two versions of the same show.
https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/episodes/103951-the-good-show
Respond in kind, once... I wonder about that. My previous landlady declined to return my security deposit, for no reason and illegally, which was the last time i was called upon to “respond in kind”, and I could have taken her to court, but I couldn’t find it in my conscience to do so.
It’s one of those things, what to do in practice when confronted with a situation like that. Do you contribute to the suffering in the world, to get back that money, or do you make a sacrifice for the greater good?
I was kind of wondering about when this might apply. In the programming contest differing strategies went against each other repeatedly rather than just once or twice. So there would be feedback and response. Many of our interactions in the real world aren't with people who we would have repeated interactions with so it probably wouldn't have the same outcome. It seems like family, friends, coworkers, these type of people would be best.
The organizational psychologist and author Adam Grant divides the world up into 25% takers, 25% givers and 50% matchers (reciprocater). The most successful people and the least successful people are both in the giver group. The difference between the two is that the successful people are able to avoid and resist the takers, their kindness isn't being taken advantage of.
I think intention can play an important role in situations like this. You can still respond in kind from a place of compassion and the greater good. Your intention wouldn't have to be out of anger to get your money but could be out of a sense of standing up for what is right or your own sense of self worth or maybe an idea that it isn't good for your landlady herself to feel she can always just take advantage of people.
You are a being worthy of dignity and respect just as much as any other. I like to make the distinction that we should try to love others AS ourselves, rather than INSTEAD of ourselves.
I'm listening to that podcast again and they're on the prisoner's dilemma and made the point that if we only interact with someone once in that scenario then it makes the most sense from a strategically selfish point of view to defect or cheat or be mean. So in our large, complex and often anonymous society many people seem to have found that they can get away with being a taker because they don't have to interact with their "takees" again. Having a public image such as a business allows them to develop a reputation which is a sort of repeated public interaction, but that can often be gamed to some degree or another.
It seems to me that in our ancestor's smaller scale, tribal societies the cheats and freeloaders wouldn't be able to get away with their behavior without being noticed. Today in our large and anonymous societies we have trouble enforcing our instinctive interpersonal system of reciprocity and kindness. Ideally we'd do our best to write laws and regulations but on one hand they are often one size fits all and impose high costs and restrictions on the sizes that don't fit them and on the other hand people with influence are able to manipulate the laws to be more favorable to themselves than others.
Anyway, it still seems like good advice on a practical, personal level.
I found it really difficult to cope with. I was the wronged party, it was a fair amount of money (2000 euro’s), and not too much trouble to engage a debt collection service to do the hard work of chasing payment. Still I couldn’t do it. It was like “would you want to be chased for money by these people?” Do you think you are raising the overall happiness of the world?
It was a confrontation between a number of tendencies in my brain, on the one hand scrooginess and care with money, and on the other hand compassion, generosity, not wanting to let money always get the upper hand in a conversation, and (importantly) laziness.
There's merit in being able to let things go, I may have just done the same because I wouldn't want to deal with the stress of it and that would be the end of it.
I think maybe it is more important to take a stand in relationships that are ongoing. If you still had to deal with your landlady letting it go would just give her permission to do it more. That wouldn't be good for you or her.
The programming contest had each of the strategies engage with each other 200 times, so it really is only tested on repeated interactions.
In my work I sometimes make mistakes or things don't always go right. I used to be glad when people wouldn't notice or say anything, it isn't pleasant if they criticize me or my work. What I've come to realize and appreciate over the years is that when people do get on me about correcting my mistakes or doing better, is that it makes me better at what I do. I take more care to do things right than I do when people just let it go, I learn more, I'm more conscientious.
Most people wouldn't want to be chased by debt collectors. Is it kinder though to let them continue with bad behavior, harming themselves and others, or is it kinder to put up some resistance so they start to think twice about what they are doing?
It depends.
A lot of my aggression/anger/fear is becoming the more mature assertion I ain't no taoist ... Therefore:
Wrathful unfoldment must not be premature. It is ideally a mark of great control/mindfulness/compassion.
Incidentally anyone is free to debt-collect my poverty [big clue right there].
In the unspoken words of the Buddha.
Bowl Empty.
Don’t Taoists pursue the notion of acting without self, the idea of action through non-action of the self? Surely that doesn’t mean that they are without emotions?
I am not such an emotional being, but when I do feel emotions I often ‘embody’ them and I still have difficulty just being the watcher. Sometimes I am able to let emotions come and go, but it seems they get very close to me.
What is the watcher? Is it a mental construct or does it go beyond that? Is there something physical that cues you that you are being the watcher? Or is the watcher your true nature? And how would you know that?
Yes the watcher is closer to awareness and mindfulness. 🤹♂️ Knowing that and knowing The True is linked ...
Being “nice” is not helpful, being “true” is much better in my experience. Many people think nice people should be a doormat and get upset when this is not the case. I’ve been reading up on Idiot Compassion and feel that’s what “nice” people are expected to do. Not for me thank you.
A couple random comments on some Buddhist podcasts today brought to mind that standing up for yourself or not being a doormat doesn't have to mean getting angry or turning into a jerk yourself.
I've seen it from people in my own life who were pushed around or abused in their childhood as they try to find their self worth and voice again they over correct into being aggressive towards others if they perceive their own needs being neglected or trod on.
It's been possible for me to avoid being pushed around too much without resorting to excessive anger or aggression. The feeling I have internally in these situations is one of dignity and respect for my own self worth to the extent that I can maintain myself without feeling the need to attack.
A couple examples, my family has a yearly 4th of July gathering. A friend of my uncle's has spent the 4th with him as well for several decades so he is always there too. He is more from the old school tough guy sort of masculinity. One year I was there early and helping my mom and my niece in the kitchen make some breakfast dishes. His wife and him get there and ask what we've been up to. I happily say we've been baking getting breakfast ready, thinking nothing of it because it was a fun and pleasant way to spend the morning with two people I love. His response was something like, "oh yeah, your one of those type of guys". It caught me off guard because it was a perfectly normal thing for me to do and I felt comfortable with myself doing it. My natural response was just to look at him, maintain eye contact, and give a big "really" eyebrow raise, that's all it took. A couple years later as I helped my niece and another young girl make American flag pancakes for breakfast he kept his head down and his opinions to himself, even as I talked to his wife about how I came up with the idea.
I've gotten a really angry and aggressive email about some work I did once. They were going through some medical issues with their newborn at the time so maybe that contributed. I could have responded in kind, and that was a reaction I had, but I started with "give me a chance to defend myself" and went through all the complaints, apologizing where needed and (mostly) explaining misunderstandings.
I guess these were one off things and I've been fortunate to have avoided much ongoing aggression in my life, but there does seem to be a way to avoid being a doormat without being a jerk yourself. I think it has to do with self worth and self compassion.
Awesome and new huggery.
Very insightful @person
It is why we have compassion for ourselves. We have blind spots, foibles, failings, flailings and fucked up wrong speech ... well that is just me ...
However ... as we meditate, mediate and meander we find ... buddhism better brand. We follow the nicer niceties ...
Thank you, that was a great post. I really enjoyed reading it.
And I too am a fan of the Paddington Very Hard Stare™
I read a good article about Idiot Compassion by Bodhipaksa yesterday, to get acquainted with the idea.
https://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practice/idiot-compassion
I agree with this statement.
>
That is very admirable. I strive to maintain this in my life, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.
It’s an interesting balance, between expressing the compassion we have come to feel as practising buddhists and not being a doormat. If I recall the various monks I have met, they all had a really considered, compassionate feel to them... they smile a lot, are quiet, but at the same time they are very aware, and there is something fierce to them, something that makes you think they are not pushovers.
It does make me consider whether if you go too far to being just compassion, if you become too accommodating, whether that may not be a wrong turning in the path. It seems to me that in order to stand your ground in a debate, in order to argue your case, there needs to be a certain strength. Same with concentration and will, for the higher realms of meditation that seems to be needed.
I'd say, in the end it comes down to balance. Of course there is a constant thread in Buddhism of giving completely of oneself for others, the Buddha's previous life tale of sacrificing his life for the tigers comes to mind. I think an important aspect of that though is that the Bodhisattva was acting out of strength rather than out of weakness.
The Audio Dharma podcast seems to have been stressing this aspect of the path in their talks recently.
Fierce smiling@kerome? 💀
Good post. I feel what you are referring to is resolve or right concentration. Focus even. In extreme understanding (abused by the shallow and fake fakirs) it is wrathful. As with the legendary Bodhidharma.
On the Lay Path it is determination. No time for silly Trumpeting, worldly indulgence and matching handy bags. The Buddha she knows. Be nice to Gaia, laity, monks and The Good.
Raft built. On Our Way ...
Hmm being nice & kindness
The Eight Verses of Mind Training comes to mind...
By thinking of all sentient beings
As more precious than a wish-fulfilling jewel
For accomplishing the highest aim,
I will always hold them dear.
Whenever I’m in the company of others,
I will regard myself as the lowest among all,
And from the depths of my heart
Cherish others as supreme.
In my every action, I will watch my mind,
And the moment destructive emotions arise,
I will confront them strongly and avert them,
Since they will hurt both me and others.
Whenever I see ill-natured people,
Or those overwhelmed by heavy misdeeds or suffering,
I will cherish them as something rare,
As though I’d found a priceless treasure.
Whenever someone out of envy
Does me wrong by attacking or belittling me,
I will take defeat upon myself,
And give the victory to others.
Even when someone I have helped,
Or in whom I have placed great hopes
Mistreats me very unjustly,
I will view that person as a true spiritual teacher.
In brief, directly or indirectly,
I will offer help and happiness to all my mothers,
And secretly take upon myself
All their hurt and suffering.
I will learn to keep all these practices
Untainted by thoughts of the eight worldly concerns.
May I recognize all things as like illusions,
And, without attachment, gain freedom from bondage.
Putting them into practice...they can be a hard pill to swallow for the Western mindset
And then there's Western pop psychology "The Dangers of Being Nice"