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What women want out of a man
Jeroen
Luminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlands Veteran
I thought this was a very good, telling article. In a way our relationships tell us where we are at with out emotional maturity, which is a slightly different aspect to life than what we usually encounter as meditators. It develops a slightly different set of skills, but there is some overlap, for example in insight and developing a sense of our emotions.
Anyway, if this is where modern manhood is taking us, perhaps there is some hope...
https://www.elephantjournal.com/2019/04/to-be-worthy-of-a-good-woman-a-man-must-do-these-6-things/
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Two words spring to mind.
'Dream' and 'on'.
Reminds me of the joke:
A woman has 6 needs:
She needs a man who is amusing, good for a laugh, and can bring her up with humour when she's feeling down;
She needs a man who is spiritually-connected and who will listen, sympathise, support and help her, in her ventures, through all he hardships and the triumphs and who will always lend the helpful, sympathetic and understanding ear;
She needs a man who is Romantic, will wine and dine her, woo her with roses and an impromptu trip to Paris in the Spring;
She needs a man who can use a washing machine, a dishwasher a lawnmower and be a great mechanic, and has no qualms about using any of these machines
She needs a man who is a sensitive, considerate, attentive and expert lover, who can make her feel a million dollars;
But above all, she needs to make sure these 5 men never meet.
Yeah... but if you read some of the things that are written, there is a kind of crisis in masculinity at the moment. I think there is a segment of the male population who are having difficulty with the end of patriarchy. Even in buddhist circles there is still a lot of male dominance, and articles like this one, which take a sounding of emotionally-mature female voices, are a good contribution.
What women want isn't the problem. What men think, is.
We don't need to address the desires of women from their menfolk. We need to address the fundamental issue that is patriarchy.
We don't need to address this from the women's stance of what women want. We need to look at it from the aspect of what we DON'T want.
And what we don't want, is what has been going on for millennia, and is still tragically, demonstrably going on, even in this day and age.
Basically what women want is for men to be different to how most of their fathers were!
Good luck with that.......
Actually... My father was a strident feminist and once alienated a "good" family friend who had a whole bunch of history completely wrong; he knew nothing about the true origins of deity-worship and put women very firmly in a non-contributory role, whereupon my dad gave him a lecture (complete with verbal references - !) on the role of the Goddess Catalhöyük, and how, thanks to the Akkadian King Sargon who conquered Sumer (now known as Iraq)in 2400BC, women were subjugated and beaten into submission (literally!) by political, patriarchal laws.
This 'friend' was a Yoga Swami, a learned gentleman with a stout reputation, so to have his authoritative knowledge fractured and shattered, gave his Ego a sound thrashing. He was quite unnerved by my father's adjustment of his flawed education, and was somewhat nonplussed that Patriarchy existed, not as a natural unfolding of things, but as a result of suppression, intimidation and domination by men.
What made it worse is that, according to his wife, he intensified his desire to be right, by doing extensive research, but found at every turn, that my father had been correct.
He refused to talk to my father for over a year, such was his perceived injury.
Women have been given the short end of the stick for over 4000 years. Is it really surprising we'd like our ball back?
What women want is the moon on a stick.
But seriously, I would like to see the results for a parallel survey called "What men want". I suspect the results would be rather similar. The women I've been involved with over the years have invariably been strong women, and often stronger than me.
So I don't see this as a feminist issue particularly, it's more to do with how people deal with their emotions.
As it happens, I was converted to feminism in Putney, London, circa 1978
Please don't bore me with feminist anecdotes. I used to visit Chiswick Women's Aid, and met Erin Pizzey several times. Another long story. 😆
I wouldn't dream of boring you with anecdotes, given that I worked in relationships counselling and saw for myself all too often, the results of domestic disputes which one side would refer to as "I was pushed too far/provoked" and the other would term "Battered 7 bales of shit out of me."
Yeah...
But this -
is contestable.
Because men have been having 'what they want' and frankly, taking it, for millennia, and it's only recently that men have opened up and been in touch with their feminine side.
Yup, read that again.
Displaying emotions, and dealing with them, is often termed as a man being 'in touch with their feminine side.'
Which really says it all and speaks volumes.
I honestly am not having a go at you personally, @DairyLama, but it irritates me somewhat, generally, when an issue of feminine demand comes up and some gentlemen start discussing "well what about our rights/.feelings/demands/?" unconscious of the fact that hitherto, women have always historically been placed in a supporting role and have always been asked to put others first and have always been cast in secondary roles. Literature is full of books and poems, writings and stories of the subjugated, 2nd class feminine role, and the moment women protest at the unfairness, there is the inevitable backlash of "what about us then?" from men, oblivious to the fact that this is precisely the point.
Feminism as a concept has existed, as a tangible demand, since the 60's when the pill was commercially made available, and women burnt their bras.
And ever since then, certain circles of Patriarchy have worked tirelessly to push that concept down, crying hysteria (now there's a word to conjure with!) and unreasonableness, all the while still paying women less for doing the same jobs, taking the credit for pioneering, groundbreaking work with never a mention of the true genius behind the result, penalising and victimising them for daring to bear children while holding down a job, abd criticising them based on looks, age and clothing.
The reason this is so funny, is because it is precisely true.
And pertinent.
We seem to have clichéd versions of both Buddhism and Feminism on this forum. Neither is convincing, and both smell like BS.
Writing long posts doesn't make you right, it just makes you inarticulate. Or even worse, it just makes you seem self-indulgent, used to pontificating with no serious challenge.
Which is precisely what I am talking about. Thank you for making my point so eloquently. QED.
Meaningless point-scoring cliche, as usual. Your usual response when people disagree with you.
You think this is the way to make people feel welcome here? "If you dont agree with me, I'll ban you?" I've seen you do it.
I sure can't answer for women. I can't answer for men. I do think that basically that honesty, dependability, generosity of spirit, graciousness and forgiveness are some things we all might be looking for, regardless of gender.
Peace to all
A nice bum is handy too.......(ducks for cover)
I'm lucky in that I've had a lot of good female teachers and role models in my life, my mom being the biggest. In terms of my Buddhist practice, I've been lucky as well. While my first few teachers in Michigan were male monks, one of my primary meditations teachers in California was Mary Orr. I also spent time with Ayya Tathaaloka. And when I moved to Oregon, I found Sakula from Portland Friends of the Dhamma. All were invaluable. Because of that, I think I have less of an issue with listening to and learning from women than other men, and I'm glad that there are more and more women in teaching and leadership roles. I'm also thankful for being exposed to those who have made the effort to push against patriarchal biases and power imbalances, such as those who support the ordination of women. Because what I think many women ultimately want is equality and less toxic gender norms.
That's a nice gender neutral observation!
Jack Kornfield sometimes tells a story about what women really want.
She approached him and said, “You drank from my well.” Sir Gawain apologized and promised to do anything in his power in repayment. This was not exactly the right sentiment to convey. In reply, the hag asked for the knight’s hand in marriage.
The knight was reluctant. He tried to bargain with her. “Is there anything else I can do that would satisfy you in place of this?” The hag thought for a while and replied, “There is one thing. If you can answer the question: ‘What is it that women really want’, I will release you from any obligation. I will give you one year to find the answer.”
Sir Gawain returned to the Kingdom and sent his helpers out in all directions to ask women of the kingdom, “What is it that you really want?” He had books full of reports of what the women of the Kingdom wanted. He found his way back to the clearing, one year later.
The hag was waiting. He handed her the books with reported statements of what women wanted. The hag looked through the books and stated, “I’m sorry, you do not have the right answer.”
Sir Gawain kept his promise. A great wedding occurred at the castle. After the wedding, in the bed chamber, his new wife asked him, “Would you not at least kiss me?” With reluctance, the knight kissed the hag. Immediately, she turned into a beautiful princess. She said, “I have been under a spell, and by the act of you kissing me, I have been half released from my spell.” The knight was thrilled.
The princess continued, “I must explain the spell to you. Now that you have kissed me, you have a choice. I can either be beautiful like this at night, but I will resume my hag form in the daytime. Or, if you choose, I can be beautiful during the day, but at night, I will resume my hag-like form. Which would you prefer?”
After a period of meditation Sir Gawain had a revelation. He turned to her and said “What I would like is whichever you would choose.” With that, a tear rolled down her cheek, she radiated joy and stated, “This is the answer that completely broke the spell. For you have answered the question of what it is that women really want.”
Kornfield explains that in ancient language what it is that women really want is their sovereignty. That is to say, respect, dignity — the capacity to be respected for who they are with their own life. When women are seen and treated in this way by others, this allows them to fulfill their nature.
That is true of women, men and children. All want respect and dignity to which must be added compassion. (Some would say, "Love". But, for me love and compassion are interchangeable for compassion encircles love and love enriches compassion)
Peace to all