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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Often times trying to correct someone's views just leads to a further entrenchment of them. On the other hand I've heard public Athiests like Sam Harris or Michael Shermer talk about the letters and responses they've received from people who have said that their advocacy for a critical look at various religious beliefs has changed people's minds.
I would say that a good approach would be to try to understand where your friend is coming from and accept her as she is. You're still under no obligation to agree with her beliefs or be encouraging of them. But taking a kind, diplomatic attitude is important, "I don't know that I could believe in that personally" as opposed to "that's irrational, there's no proof that people can become stars!" If you maintain that friendship and spend time together, I'm sure there will be occasions where you may naturally display a skeptical, rational approach to something in her presence. That may, or may not, plant seeds as to how to approach the world differently that could ripen sometime in the future.
Don't try to change her, just be her friend and let your example do the talking for you.
I don't know that advice doesn't feel quite spot on, but I hope I'm pointing in a helpful direction.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Thank you @person, that is akin to what I am already doing, encouraging her to take a critical look at her beliefs by setting the right example.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@federica said:
To suggest or push one's ideals onto another is not the Way. The Buddha taught nothing unless asked to do so
I thought about this some, and it strikes me that the Buddha’s example is relevant. He approached his ascetic friends to give his first teaching, before he was well-known as a teacher. It is not that unusual to wish to set a good example for one’s friends.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Moderator Note:
Just as a complete aside - page one of this discussion has fallen into the seemingly irreversible chasm of 'Bad Gateway'....
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@federica said:
To suggest or push one's ideals onto another is not the Way. The Buddha taught nothing unless asked to do so
I thought about this some, and it strikes me that the Buddha’s example is relevant. He approached his ascetic friends to give his first teaching, before he was well-known as a teacher. It is not that unusual to wish to set a good example for one’s friends.
Well that's a good point, but remember 2 things:
Firstly, The Buddha spoke to his ascetic friends who were on the same path as he was. They were seeking what he sought, so outlining his findings hit the same groove with them.
Secondly, I have several friends whose ideas and opinions are different to mine. I might discuss my views with them, and we might broadly differ, but I never intend to deliberately change their minds or consider them 'deluded'.
I guess THIS spirit journey ends when your body dies, and then the next one begins. Mind you, I don't consider it a spirit journey unless you are helping others.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@federica said:
Secondly, I have several friends whose ideas and opinions are different to mine. I might discuss my views with them, and we might broadly differ, but I never intend to deliberately change their minds or consider them 'deluded'.
Fair enough, but what if one of them picked up a science fiction book and held that as their belief? Would you just smile and say ‘fine’, without even thinking that their thought process in doing this was weird, or they might much more gainfully walk a path with more truth in it?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@federica said:
Secondly, I have several friends whose ideas and opinions are different to mine. I might discuss my views with them, and we might broadly differ, but I never intend to deliberately change their minds or consider them 'deluded'.
Fair enough, but what if one of them picked up a science fiction book and held that as their belief? Would you just smile and say ‘fine’, without even thinking that their thought process in doing this was weird, or they might much more gainfully walk a path with more truth in it?
Haven't Christian Scientists done that?
I might consider them madder than a box of frogs, but if it makes them kind people with good intentions, and doesn't harm them, then why am I going to sit there trying to change their minds when what they believe makes their world a happier place, and them, a better person?
Truth is subjective, don't you think?
Who am I to try to influence them that my truth is better than their truth?
Would I rather be happy, or would I rather be right?
Hm, that's a tough one....
1
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
@federica said:
I might consider them madder than a box of frogs
We can certainly agree on that!
Truth is subjective, don’t you think?
Who am I to try to influence them that my truth is better than their truth?
Some truths are subjective, I’d say. People who try to argue the truth of the Law of Gravity generally find a hard fall awaits them, and I suspect the Four Noble Truths (however you state them) are also like that.
I think it does come down to trying to exemplify a sensible truth, encouraging a critical examination of one’s beliefs, and making good teachings available for those who might be helped by them. Not all truths are sensible, and even though all paths lead up the mountain not all of them make it to the top before dissolving into other paths.
Missionary zeal is something I’ve always disliked, but there’s a difference between that and trying to teach those who are open to it.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
IMO its better to approach Truth or truth as a way of viewing the world rather than a set of facts or beliefs about the world. Taking in information with a balance of openness and skepticism. Requiring evidence or reason without completely dismissing things a priori outside of our worldview.
Trying to adopt a stance of intellectual humility, thinking that you may be wrong in part or in whole (we all certainly have been in the past). That others usually have something they can teach us about the world outside of our perspective that can add to it.
After all is said and done, it would seem you and @Kerome are still stalemates
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
Lol, probably in practice we aren’t so different...
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
@Kerome said:
Lol, probably in practice we aren’t so different...
I'm sure that's true. And how dull would it be if we all had the same opinions?
As my grandad used to say, "If everyone all liked the same things I would have faced a lot of stiff competition over your Grandma!"
1
JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
She gave me an account of what she actually does, and it was all about a kind of multidimensional healing and awakening of the self and others. Not surprising the website carries medical disclaimers. So some form of good intentions, which at least is something.
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
“There is no greater evil than desiring to change others - (to take from or give to others what they do not, of their own accord, want to give or take).”
— Tao Te Ching, verse 46
Hmm. Perhaps setting a good example is as much as I want to do.
Great quote @Kerome and hard to implement for many of us ... keen on changing others rather than our many selves ... 🤗
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JeroenLuminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlandsVeteran
You are right @lobster, in part it is difficult because changing someone else is the ultimate affirmation that we ourselves are right. It’s very tempting. But in my friend’s case I would love to see her gain more inner peace, she is quite fragile and I’m not at all sure this current direction is good for her. Still it is her choice.
@opiumpoetry said:
I guess THIS spirit journey ends when your body dies, and then the next one begins. Mind you, I don't consider it a spirit journey unless you are helping others.
You are other. I definitely am. How do we help our selves? By speeding up our luvviness ... perhaps ...
Comments
Often times trying to correct someone's views just leads to a further entrenchment of them. On the other hand I've heard public Athiests like Sam Harris or Michael Shermer talk about the letters and responses they've received from people who have said that their advocacy for a critical look at various religious beliefs has changed people's minds.
I would say that a good approach would be to try to understand where your friend is coming from and accept her as she is. You're still under no obligation to agree with her beliefs or be encouraging of them. But taking a kind, diplomatic attitude is important, "I don't know that I could believe in that personally" as opposed to "that's irrational, there's no proof that people can become stars!" If you maintain that friendship and spend time together, I'm sure there will be occasions where you may naturally display a skeptical, rational approach to something in her presence. That may, or may not, plant seeds as to how to approach the world differently that could ripen sometime in the future.
Don't try to change her, just be her friend and let your example do the talking for you.
I don't know that advice doesn't feel quite spot on, but I hope I'm pointing in a helpful direction.
Thank you @person, that is akin to what I am already doing, encouraging her to take a critical look at her beliefs by setting the right example.
I thought about this some, and it strikes me that the Buddha’s example is relevant. He approached his ascetic friends to give his first teaching, before he was well-known as a teacher. It is not that unusual to wish to set a good example for one’s friends.
Moderator Note:
Just as a complete aside - page one of this discussion has fallen into the seemingly irreversible chasm of 'Bad Gateway'....
Well that's a good point, but remember 2 things:
Firstly, The Buddha spoke to his ascetic friends who were on the same path as he was. They were seeking what he sought, so outlining his findings hit the same groove with them.
Secondly, I have several friends whose ideas and opinions are different to mine. I might discuss my views with them, and we might broadly differ, but I never intend to deliberately change their minds or consider them 'deluded'.
Maybe at the end of life you see..... "505 bad gateway" and then poof.. disappear?
Tee Hee @Jeffrey 💗
Something 'interesting' happens during the death process from what we know from some who have partially gone through it.
Death is a good place to end. Life is a good place to begin. In fact it is the only place I know of where the spiritual journey can occur ...
I guess THIS spirit journey ends when your body dies, and then the next one begins. Mind you, I don't consider it a spirit journey unless you are helping others.
Fair enough, but what if one of them picked up a science fiction book and held that as their belief? Would you just smile and say ‘fine’, without even thinking that their thought process in doing this was weird, or they might much more gainfully walk a path with more truth in it?
Haven't Christian Scientists done that?
I might consider them madder than a box of frogs, but if it makes them kind people with good intentions, and doesn't harm them, then why am I going to sit there trying to change their minds when what they believe makes their world a happier place, and them, a better person?
Truth is subjective, don't you think?
Who am I to try to influence them that my truth is better than their truth?
Would I rather be happy, or would I rather be right?
Hm, that's a tough one....
We can certainly agree on that!
Some truths are subjective, I’d say. People who try to argue the truth of the Law of Gravity generally find a hard fall awaits them, and I suspect the Four Noble Truths (however you state them) are also like that.
I think it does come down to trying to exemplify a sensible truth, encouraging a critical examination of one’s beliefs, and making good teachings available for those who might be helped by them. Not all truths are sensible, and even though all paths lead up the mountain not all of them make it to the top before dissolving into other paths.
Missionary zeal is something I’ve always disliked, but there’s a difference between that and trying to teach those who are open to it.
IMO its better to approach Truth or truth as a way of viewing the world rather than a set of facts or beliefs about the world. Taking in information with a balance of openness and skepticism. Requiring evidence or reason without completely dismissing things a priori outside of our worldview.
Trying to adopt a stance of intellectual humility, thinking that you may be wrong in part or in whole (we all certainly have been in the past). That others usually have something they can teach us about the world outside of our perspective that can add to it.
Often in disagreement it would seem
Oh I wouldn't say it's ended; that seems a little harsh, @Shoshin. @Kerome and I are probably just buffing up the opposite sides of the same coin.
I've taken the head and left him the tail, though....
After all is said and done, it would seem you and @Kerome are still stalemates
Lol, probably in practice we aren’t so different...
I'm sure that's true. And how dull would it be if we all had the same opinions?
As my grandad used to say, "If everyone all liked the same things I would have faced a lot of stiff competition over your Grandma!"
She gave me an account of what she actually does, and it was all about a kind of multidimensional healing and awakening of the self and others. Not surprising the website carries medical disclaimers. So some form of good intentions, which at least is something.
“There is no greater evil than desiring to change others - (to take from or give to others what they do not, of their own accord, want to give or take).”
— Tao Te Ching, verse 46
Hmm. Perhaps setting a good example is as much as I want to do.
Great quote @Kerome and hard to implement for many of us ... keen on changing others rather than our many selves ... 🤗
You are right @lobster, in part it is difficult because changing someone else is the ultimate affirmation that we ourselves are right. It’s very tempting. But in my friend’s case I would love to see her gain more inner peace, she is quite fragile and I’m not at all sure this current direction is good for her. Still it is her choice.
You are other. I definitely am. How do we help our selves? By speeding up our luvviness ... perhaps ...