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LCHF, and Fasting

This discussion was created from comments split from: Low Carb High Fat....

Comments

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 24

    It's been slightly over a year since I - or anyone else - contributed to this thread. I am kinda hoping @Tosh returns to chat about things in general....

    I, in the meantime, have thoroughly neglected my dietary dedication.
    I no longer do LCHF. I also stopped eating meat. Then began again. Then stopped. Then started again... Goodness, so much so that I'm not really sure where I am at the moment.

    The weight is back on. Hey ho.
    Trying to not get fixated about it. There are more important and pressing issues to contend with, currently (Coronavirus lockdown still in full swing, as I speak!)

    I recently completed a 36-hour Fast. (approximately. Coulda been more, certainly wasn't less...)

    Had a 6-hour 'eating window' at the end of it. (FYI: 2 corn thins with home-made hummus, made with half-and-half chickpeas and cannellini beans), then later a chicken breast (yeah, meat. I know...) marinated in a yoghurt and herb & spice mix, shallow-fried with carrot juliennes, spring onions, and a 1/3 of a cupful of re-heated glutinous rice (resistant starch), with a chiffonade of dandelion leaves. Yum.

    Now embarked on a second Fast (Thank you, Dr Jason Fung and Mr. Jimmy Moore, excellent book*) which I put into my Zero timer as 36-hours, but am seriously considering prolonging it to a full 14-day Fast.

    Let's go...

    (*The Complete Guide To Fasting, Victory belt publishing.)

    Vastmind
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Just in case anyone wants to slap me upside de head with this one, I beat you to it...

    Call it Moderator privilege.
    I rarely do stuff "Just because I can, so there, Ya Boo!" but hopefully, this thread will continue to generate interest, and be available for others to add their talking points...

  • If you want to loose weight, you simply don't change your eating habits, but monitor everything you eat and note the calorie-content. Everything. Also the apple, also the "just a bite of chocolate". Everything. For two weeks.

    Note your weight at the same time every day. Every day. Your weight differs up to two-three kg depending on a lot of factors. Too few measures will make your weight look random.

    When the two weeks are up, you know what your average weight and average calorie-intake is. You have also gained insight into the energy-content of food.

    You then remove 500 kcal daily. Not by exercising - your exercise electronics can't tell you how much you burn when exercising, only vague standards. So remove 500 kcal by subsidising one food for another or cutting someting. It does not matter what you eat. This is important to remember. It does not matter at all. Only kcal matter. Healthy foods make you as fat as unhealthy ones, and vice versa. It does not matter, seriously. Some foods fill you longer for less kcal, som contains more micronutrients like vitamins, but for bodyweight it does not matter.

    Keep noting weight every day, as well as calorie-intake. Every little calorie. It is the averages, that count. Average kcal intake over time as well as average weight over time.

    You will loose weight. When you stop loosing weight, remove more kcal. When you plateau, add 2-300 kcal again, wait several weeks, take them out. Long plateaus are common when you get near your ideal weight. Months long. Stick to the schedule.

    Any exercise comes as an extra.

    Eventually the monitoring of intake becomes natural, and you can judge how much to eat to keep your weight, gain weight or lose weight easily. Because you know how much energy a certain food approximately contains and what your dietary need is.

    This is the surefire way. It will teach you to think about what you eat and in what amounts, hence it will be the "lifestyle change" so often talked about.

    As a strength athlete, this was the method I was taught.
    It works both ways of course - for adding and removing bodyweight.
    I have taught my girlfriend, and she has now successfully lost 12 kg. and is within her ideal weight range - but more importantly she now has mindfulness around food. She recognizes her old, bad habits and excuses and knows why her weight loss stalled (until she finally came around and did what I told her ;) ).
    She thought she didn't eat very much - now she eats herself full every day, eats what she likes to. But of course what she likes to eat has also changed, as she became mindfull. She no longer wants that croissant at work, and delights in her oatmeal with apple.
    Oatmeal with one apple tastes very good and is 138 kcal, and fills you until lunch if not longer, while one croissant without filling is 400 kcal and fills you for an hour or so. This was 1/3 of her daily, dietary energy allowance - even without butter or jam! Realising this was a big eyeopener for her.
    Quickly that croissant became the luxury it should be - something to choose once in a while, not a habit because it tastes good and is there.

    An important point I gave her one morning, as we discussed her weight loss, and she lamented how she wanted to "eat normal, like normal people", I told her, that normal people in our country are overweight. 52 % of grown ups, to be exact. So she also had to work on her view of "normal" as opposed to what she wanted to achieve. If she ate "normal", she would be overweight.

    Using myself as an example, I taught her, that I eat what I want to - but not all the time. I too, limit myself, and that is what people who keep an ideal weight do (well, I'm overweight, but that is because of my level of muscle mass). They don't go about talking about it, they simply tell themselves "no, not today".

    I think it was also important for her to realize, that I - who she thought ate as I please - did in fact limit and monitor my intake of all the good things.

    Personally I couldn't care less if she weighs 80 or 60 kg., but I can tell her how to lose and gain weight, and how to be mindfull of food because I have extensive knowledge in that field.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Ficus_religiosa said:
    If you want to loose weight, you simply don't change your eating habits,

    I'm not changing them, I'm modifying by improving them...

    but monitor everything you eat and note the calorie-content. Everything. Also the apple, also the "just a bite of chocolate". Everything. For two weeks.

    I tried that with Fitnesspal. I wasn't diligent enough. Too much like hard work. So I didn't.

    Note your weight at the same time every day. Every day. Your weight differs up to two-three kg depending on a lot of factors. Too few measures will make your weight look random.

    When the two weeks are up, you know what your average weight and average calorie-intake is. You have also gained insight into the energy-content of food.

    Yes, I know, it's not just about calories, it's calories, content and information. I'm cool with that...

    You then remove 500 kcal daily. Not by exercising - your exercise electronics can't tell you how much you burn when exercising, only vague standards. So remove 500 kcal by subsidising one food for another or cutting someting. It does not matter what you eat. This is important to remember. It does not matter at all. Only kcal matter. Healthy foods make you as fat as unhealthy ones, and vice versa. It does not matter, seriously. Some foods fill you longer for less kcal, som contains more micronutrients like vitamins, but for bodyweight it does not matter.

    No, again, I'm not into such careful monitoring. I know how many calories I should be eating; I know how much weight-per-height ratio I should be weighing...

    Keep noting weight every day, as well as calorie-intake. Every little calorie. It is the averages, that count. Average kcal intake over time as well as average weight over time.

    You will loose weight. When you stop loosing weight, remove more kcal. When you plateau, add 2-300 kcal again, wait several weeks, take them out. Long plateaus are common when you get near your ideal weight. Months long. Stick to the schedule.

    Why make this such hard work? his is too regimented and intense for me. All I want to do is lose a stone, not completely transform myself...

    Any exercise comes as an extra.

    Can't exercise. Not to the type and intensity I would like to. I'm disabled.

    Eventually the monitoring of intake becomes natural, and you can judge how much to eat to keep your weight, gain weight or lose weight easily. Because you know how much energy a certain food approximately contains and what your dietary need is.

    Key word is 'eventually'. I'm all for taking things gradually, but not in such a restrictive and regimented way. I love fasting. Done it before, and will do it again. It's actually a natural way of eating: Fast - 'feast'.

    This is the surefire way. It will teach you to think about what you eat and in what amounts, hence it will be the "lifestyle change" so often talked about.

    This isn't the kind of 'Lifestyle change' I am comfortable adhering to.

    As a strength athlete, this was the method I was taught.

    Ah. There you go. What works for you, isn't what is going o work for me. I'm 63, very short, and I can't walk properly.
    World of difference.

    It works both ways of course - for adding and removing bodyweight.
    I have taught my girlfriend, and she has now successfully lost 12 kg. and is within her ideal weight range - but more importantly she now has mindfulness around food. She recognizes her old, bad habits and excuses and knows why her weight loss stalled (until she finally came around and did what I told her ;) ).

    Yeah, I know what I did to mess things up. I also know what worked previously, and should really address revisiting that.

    She thought she didn't eat very much - now she eats herself full every day, eats what she likes to. But of course what she likes to eat has also changed, as she became mindfull. She no longer wants that croissant at work, and delights in her oatmeal with apple.

    I don't have a sweet tooth at all. I can look at a cake, bar of chocolate or pastry, and opt for the apple, every time.

    Oatmeal with one apple tastes very good and is 138 kcal, and fills you until lunch if not longer, while one croissant without filling is 400 kcal and fills you for an hour or so. This was 1/3 of her daily, dietary energy allowance - even without butter or jam! Realising this was a big eyeopener for her.
    Quickly that croissant became the luxury it should be - something to choose once in a while, not a habit because it tastes good and is there.

    Oh I agree. You should be totally loving what you eat, and take everything in Moderation.
    Including Moderation...

    An important point I gave her one morning, as we discussed her weight loss, and she lamented how she wanted to "eat normal, like normal people", I told her, that normal people in our country are overweight. 52 % of grown ups, to be exact. So she also had to work on her view of "normal" as opposed to what she wanted to achieve. If she ate "normal", she would be overweight.

    That's the thing. There's no such thing as 'normally' at all. If we did, we would eat when we're hungry, and not eat when we're not. People became used to the '3 meals a day' concept, but now, it's more like 6, including mid-morning, mid-afternoon and in-front-of-tv' evening snacks...
    Eating a good meal once a day (lunch time is best) and then not eating again until the next day, is how it used to be. That's really what I'm going back to...

    Using myself as an example, I taught her, that I eat what I want to - but not all the time. I too, limit myself, and that is what people who keep an ideal weight do (well, I'm overweight, but that is because of my level of muscle mass). They don't go about talking about it, they simply tell themselves "no, not today".

    I think it was also important for her to realize, that I - who she thought ate as I please - did in fact limit and monitor my intake of all the good things.

    I hate to say it, but you actually sound a bit controlling, there...

    Personally I couldn't care less if she weighs 80 or 60 kg., but I can tell her how to lose and gain weight, and how to be mindfull of food because I have extensive knowledge in that field.

    Have you thoroughly investigated Fasting and restricting intake to sensible, good, nutritious food just once a day? I personally recommend it....

    (PS: MIndful' has one 'L'... keeps coming up red and underlined in my post, with 2... :) )

  • @federica said:

    @Ficus_religiosa said:
    If you want to loose weight, you simply don't change your eating habits,

    I'm not changing them, I'm modifying by improving them...

    but monitor everything you eat and note the calorie-content. Everything. Also the apple, also the "just a bite of chocolate". Everything. For two weeks.

    I tried that with Fitnesspal. I wasn't diligent enough. Too much like hard work. So I didn't.

    Note your weight at the same time every day. Every day. Your weight differs up to two-three kg depending on a lot of factors. Too few measures will make your weight look random.

    When the two weeks are up, you know what your average weight and average calorie-intake is. You have also gained insight into the energy-content of food.

    Yes, I know, it's not just about calories, it's calories, content and information. I'm cool with that...

    You then remove 500 kcal daily. Not by exercising - your exercise electronics can't tell you how much you burn when exercising, only vague standards. So remove 500 kcal by subsidising one food for another or cutting someting. It does not matter what you eat. This is important to remember. It does not matter at all. Only kcal matter. Healthy foods make you as fat as unhealthy ones, and vice versa. It does not matter, seriously. Some foods fill you longer for less kcal, som contains more micronutrients like vitamins, but for bodyweight it does not matter.

    No, again, I'm not into such careful monitoring. I know how many calories I should be eating; I know how much weight-per-height ratio I should be weighing...

    Keep noting weight every day, as well as calorie-intake. Every little calorie. It is the averages, that count. Average kcal intake over time as well as average weight over time.

    You will loose weight. When you stop loosing weight, remove more kcal. When you plateau, add 2-300 kcal again, wait several weeks, take them out. Long plateaus are common when you get near your ideal weight. Months long. Stick to the schedule.

    Why make this such hard work? his is too regimented and intense for me. All I want to do is lose a stone, not completely transform myself...

    Any exercise comes as an extra.

    Can't exercise. Not to the type and intensity I would like to. I'm disabled.

    Eventually the monitoring of intake becomes natural, and you can judge how much to eat to keep your weight, gain weight or lose weight easily. Because you know how much energy a certain food approximately contains and what your dietary need is.

    Key word is 'eventually'. I'm all for taking things gradually, but not in such a restrictive and regimented way. I love fasting. Done it before, and will do it again. It's actually a natural way of eating: Fast - 'feast'.

    This is the surefire way. It will teach you to think about what you eat and in what amounts, hence it will be the "lifestyle change" so often talked about.

    This isn't the kind of 'Lifestyle change' I am comfortable adhering to.

    As a strength athlete, this was the method I was taught.

    Ah. There you go. What works for you, isn't what is going o work for me. I'm 63, very short, and I can't walk properly.
    World of difference.

    It works both ways of course - for adding and removing bodyweight.
    I have taught my girlfriend, and she has now successfully lost 12 kg. and is within her ideal weight range - but more importantly she now has mindfulness around food. She recognizes her old, bad habits and excuses and knows why her weight loss stalled (until she finally came around and did what I told her ;) ).

    Yeah, I know what I did to mess things up. I also know what worked previously, and should really address revisiting that.

    She thought she didn't eat very much - now she eats herself full every day, eats what she likes to. But of course what she likes to eat has also changed, as she became mindfull. She no longer wants that croissant at work, and delights in her oatmeal with apple.

    I don't have a sweet tooth at all. I can look at a cake, bar of chocolate or pastry, and opt for the apple, every time.

    Oatmeal with one apple tastes very good and is 138 kcal, and fills you until lunch if not longer, while one croissant without filling is 400 kcal and fills you for an hour or so. This was 1/3 of her daily, dietary energy allowance - even without butter or jam! Realising this was a big eyeopener for her.
    Quickly that croissant became the luxury it should be - something to choose once in a while, not a habit because it tastes good and is there.

    Oh I agree. You should be totally loving what you eat, and take everything in Moderation.
    Including Moderation...

    An important point I gave her one morning, as we discussed her weight loss, and she lamented how she wanted to "eat normal, like normal people", I told her, that normal people in our country are overweight. 52 % of grown ups, to be exact. So she also had to work on her view of "normal" as opposed to what she wanted to achieve. If she ate "normal", she would be overweight.

    That's the thing. There's no such thing as 'normally' at all. If we did, we would eat when we're hungry, and not eat when we're not. People became used to the '3 meals a day' concept, but now, it's more like 6, including mid-morning, mid-afternoon and in-front-of-tv' evening snacks...
    Eating a good meal once a day (lunch time is best) and then not eating again until the next day, is how it used to be. That's really what I'm going back to...

    Using myself as an example, I taught her, that I eat what I want to - but not all the time. I too, limit myself, and that is what people who keep an ideal weight do (well, I'm overweight, but that is because of my level of muscle mass). They don't go about talking about it, they simply tell themselves "no, not today".

    I think it was also important for her to realize, that I - who she thought ate as I please - did in fact limit and monitor my intake of all the good things.

    I hate to say it, but you actually sound a bit controlling, there...

    Personally I couldn't care less if she weighs 80 or 60 kg., but I can tell her how to lose and gain weight, and how to be mindfull of food because I have extensive knowledge in that field.

    Have you thoroughly investigated Fasting and restricting intake to sensible, good, nutritious food just once a day? I personally recommend it....

    (PS: MIndful' has one 'L'... keeps coming up red and underlined in my post, with 2... :) )

    Oh, I didn't intend this for you specifically, it was just like my two cents on the subject. I am not a controlling person at all, I have no interest in or desire to control anyone. I only told her what genuinly works in the long run. Whether she takes it to heart or not is completely up to her - and everyone else for that matter. As I said, I don't care about her weight

    federica
  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    Well nobody can exercise properly at the moment, the gyms are all closed... the only thing that ever worked for me was diet and exercise, together.

  • howhow Veteran Veteran

    This is not about advising anyone to do what I do.

    The tradition I come from has a meal time verse that is recited before every meal.

    I must think deeply of the ways & means by which this food has come.
    I must consider my merit when accepting it.
    I must protect myself from error by excluding greed from my mind.
    I will eat lest I become lean and die.
    I accept this food so that I might become enlightened.

    A body trim Dharma friend mentioned to me a year ago that she doesn't eat meals according to any particular timed schedule and that only after becoming hungry does she ever eat.
    Because I am a creature of timed meal scheduling, irrespective of any hunger, I wondered how I would ever actually know if I am causing more life to be killed for my body maintenance than was necessary. Because I almost never find myself hungry, if I was to continue trying to be sincere in manifesting the intent of the verse I was repeating before every meal, some food consumption exploration would be required.

    I decided a year ago to try forgoing lunch, while not increasing the size of my usual breakfast & dinner....and found to my surprise that not only did it not result in any particular hunger or energy loss but not even my weight level changed after dropping my food consumption by a third.

    So now it appears that for years I was talking about a Dharma meal time verse intent
    when I actually could have been manifesting it.

    federicaShoshinlobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited April 24

    Thanks to both @Ficus_religiosa and @how for interesting and informative input. I like the prayer, @how...

    There are televised and Social-Media gym sessions and keep fit programs broadcast every day, to suit all tastes, @Kerome. Mind you.... some Keep Fit instructors are just eye candy for some... :D

  • FosdickFosdick in its eye are mirrored far off mountains Alaska, USA Veteran
    edited April 24

    As a type 1 diabetic, fasting is not practical for me. Possible, perhaps, but requiring so much attention that If I were to fast, I would be able to do nothing else in the course of a day but monitor blood sugar and pop jelly beans.

    My legs don't work worth a damn, my energy levels are exceedingly low, and anything recognizable to the average person as exercise is equally challenging. Keeping up with the chores is about as close as I get to exercise, but as summer approaches, chores will multiply to include such things as hauling myself up ladders and mopping the leaky roof with tar.

    As @Ficus_religiosa observes

    If you want to loose weight,>

    or maintain weight, for that matter

    you simply don't change your eating habits, but monitor everything you eat and note the calorie-content. Everything. Also the apple, also the "just a bite of chocolate". Everything. ~~For two weeks.~~>

    For the rest of your life.

    Works great for me. 1200 to 1600 calories per diem, maintain weight, no cursed edema in the legs.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Fasting is extremely beneficial for type II diabetes, this I know for sure. As for type I, I would never presume to suggest fasting or any other modification to a diet, instigated on whim alone.
    I know types I & II are vastly different both in severity and management... Type I is an auto-immune condition, whereas Type II is adult-onset. and a 'moveable Feast'...

    Having just scoured the book I mentioned, there is no mention of Fasting, associated with Type I. So, @Fosdick you know best, ad you have my respect for having to deal with what had originally been a fatal condition.

    Fosdick
  • FosdickFosdick in its eye are mirrored far off mountains Alaska, USA Veteran

    Yeah, fasting is potentially dangerous for type 1, especially for the inattentive and/or the relatively inexperienced, so no responsible source is ever likely to recommend it. My gut feeling is that it would be beneficial, maybe very beneficial, but a lot more difficult to implement. I may yet try doing it.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    All I would say is to make 100% sure that you are medically approved and supervised. I don't think I need to really tell you that, but it's just my way of caring.
    It's also a good disclaimer, in case anyone accuses me of undue influence! If you have a Clinical dietician, or want to actually contact Dr Fung, you make sure you stay well.

  • KeromeKerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran

    @how said:
    A body trim Dharma friend mentioned to me a year ago that she doesn't eat meals according to any particular timed schedule and that only after becoming hungry does she ever eat.

    This is more or less what I do, except that I do take a warm evening meal at a regular time because I eat with the rest of my family. But in the morning I take one smallish meal when I am hungry, often around 11 am.

    found to my surprise that not only did it not result in any particular hunger or energy loss but not even my weight level changed after dropping my food consumption by a third.

    Yes that has been my experience as well, I only really start dropping weight with rigorous exercise in the gym and limited food intake, which I then need to be careful of so that I don’t start fainting.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    The reason you feel faint, @Kerome is not for lack of food, but lack of fluid, with electrolytes. Magnesium is important, as is salt. Sparkling water is good and a literal pinch of salt on the tongue is also beneficial.

  • AngusAngus Vietnam New

    a chicken breast (yeah, meat. I know...) marinated in a yoghurt and herb & spice mix, shallow-fried with carrot juliennes, spring onions, and a 1/3 of a cupful of re-heated glutinous rice (resistant starch), with a chiffonade of dandelion leaves.

  • AngusAngus Vietnam New

    Id not recommend that for breaking a fast . Some oatmeal and milk is what i usually take . Gradually building up to solid food and meats .

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Angus said:
    Id not recommend that for breaking a fast . Some oatmeal and milk is what i usually take . Gradually building up to solid food and meats .

    I followed a recipe in a book on fasting, written by a Doctor who has been working in this field for 28 years.
    I think he probably knows what he's talking about... ;)

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 1

    This fasting lark is actually working very well; recently finished an intended 42-hour fast, but actually, comfortably, painlessly went to a tadge over 45 hours. Felt absolutely great.
    I refuse to be, or become, a slave to the scales, and forget counting calories - that is a hopeless, useless and utterly pointless exercise anyway! But I do know I'm down about 8lbs in a couple of weeks... so, doing well.

    Bunks
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    June 6th: have intermittently Fasted (24 hours, then TMAD, alternating) since posting the above. Am now currently as I 'type' in the middle of a 48-hour Fast, which I intend doing once every 2 weeks (alternating with an extended, 36-hour fast, also every other week, so, 48. 36. 48, and so on...)
    This Fast is scheduled to terminate at 09:00 (GMT) on Sunday 7th (tomorrow)... Easing back into eating gently is very important for any Fast over 28 hours... So I will keep you all posted.
    I didn't think the scales wee showing me too much of a difference, but I met a friend in a local store yesterday, and her comment immediately on seeing me was, "wow, you're looking good, lost weight I see!" So, I guess something must be working.
    Can't describe how good I am feeling right now...

    Chatting to a friend on Facebook earlier, I was reminded of something that happened many (No, I mean, really MANY) years ago, when I had to have a short stay in Hospital; the woman in the bed next to me (4 to a ward) advised nursing and medical Staff that she only wanted water and tea after her operation, no food. Everyone thought she was completely bonkers, and Staff tried in every way they could to convince her to eat, for strength and healing. But she was adamant, and told them it was for religious reasons, after which they gave up trying...
    But, here's the thing: The woman in the bed next to her (woman number 2) had submitted to the same operation 3 days earlier.
    The woman 'Fasting' left Hospital before Woman number 2 did. The resident Consultant/ Doctor was utterly stunned at her apparent progress and healing, and when he asked her if she felt she could convalesce at home, she jumped at the chance (not literally, you understand... stitches... you know...) While she was still a little fragile, it was quite obvious that she had made a speedier recovery, one that was normally expected after 7 or 8 days. Something she had achieved in half that time...

    I kept in touch with her for a while. Turns out she had been IF for about a month prior to her Op., and had lost some weight.
    Contrary to popular belief, your system heals itself more quickly while Fasting, and autophagy happens after 24 hours of Fasting and increases and continues for at least a further 36 hours, when it plateaus...

    if only I had listened to her then, and followed suit. She was ahead of her time, frankly. And she also told me it hadn't been for religious reasons at all; but it shut 'them' up... :D

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