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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Can't remember if I recommended it earlier in the thread. But the HBO show The Pitt started its second season. Its an emergency room drama with an older Noah Wyle (the young doctor on the old NBC ER show). Its the sort of show that appeals to a broad section of people and won Emmys for the first season.
I'm really hyped about this. I wish theaters would show it where I live, but they aren't going to so I have to wait until it gets released in some other country on physical/digital media. I loved the previous film of the director Long Day's Journey Into Night from 2018, it was purely sensational, what cinema was meant to be. I expect nothing less from this.
I also watched some Tsai Ming-liang films. He has a "walker" series where he films a monk just walking very slowly. I'll get to it sometime, for now, Goodbye, Dragon Inn was my favorite, a meditative piece on cinema. Taipei Suicide Story was also a favorite of mine, different director and only 45 minutes. It was a great way to start the year, with so many amazing experiences.
'One battle after Another' was a little silly but great fun.
Much like this film...
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
A show from 2011-16, Person of Interest. Its about an ASI and its developer who use it off the record to save people's lives. At the time the mass surveillance angle seemed very pertinent and the ASI a bit of an interesting afterthought. Though watching again through today's lens all the surveillance stuff barely moves the needle and the AI concerns hit harder. A lot of the surveillance worries have been solved for, but a lot of them a think are just a matter of we don't really care so much anymore. On the AI front it spends time wrestling with many of the worries that we have today. Its also a pretty good show in its own right.
I watched the 2024 movie Civil War ...It's about the perspective of the journalists moving through a collapsing United States. As they travel toward Washington, D.C., what they encounter is like snapshots of different mini-conflicts rather than one coherent war.
I saw Project Hail Mary yesterday and enjoyed it. Definitely not your typical movie. I don't want to spoil it but it's more a thoughtful movie rather than constant action. My partner who doesn't like science fiction liked Ryan Gosling and the alien
1
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeffrey said:
I saw Project Hail Mary yesterday and enjoyed it. Definitely not your typical movie. I don't want to spoil it but it's more a thoughtful movie rather than constant action. My partner who doesn't like science fiction liked Ryan Gosling and the alien
I recommended the movie to my barber. She said she didn't like scifi and I emphasized the relationship between Grace and Rocky, it gave the movie a heart that the Martian didn't have.
0
personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
My TV died and I had to get a new one. It came with a 30 day free trial of Apple TV. So, asking if anyone has any recommendations for good things to watch there.
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JeroenNot all those who wander are lostNetherlandsVeteran
edited May 6
@person said:
My TV died and I had to get a new one. It came with a 30 day free trial of Apple TV. So, asking if anyone has any recommendations for good things to watch there.
It depends on your tastes, I think, but there are many award-winning series on there. I liked Foundation, the sci fi series based on the works of Asimov, and Severance, the office drama with a twist. For All Mankind was also good. Pluribus I’ve heard good things about.
For movies there are a few exclusives you might want to catch, like F1: The Movie, Wolfs, Napoleon and Greyhound. It’s not the greatest platform for movies but there are some nice ones.
Remarkably Bright Creatures is a drama narrated by an Octopus. I enjoyed
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
I've been enjoying For All Mankind on Apple TV. Its an alternate history if the Soviets had been first to the moon and continued the space race. It imagines moon bases by the 80s and people on Mars in the 90s. Plus a lot of alternate timelines, like where the Trailblazers draft Michael Jordan rather than passing on him or Ted Kennedy winning the Democratic nomination over Jimmy Carter to become president.
I very much enjoyed this documentary/movie about the soccer team of American Samoa, 'the worst football team by FIFA ranking who never won a game or scored a goal'.
@marcitko said:
I very much enjoyed this documentary/movie about the soccer team of American Samoa, 'the worst football team by FIFA ranking who never won a game or scored a goal'.
Oh yes! Australia beat them 31-0 I recall. Archie Thompson scored 13
I've been watching a surreal Si Fi movie, I think it's called "This is Dystopia" ....Oh bugger! No wait...it turns out I've just been watching the mainstream news.
I have been watching 'Clarksons Farm' which is as close to 'real' farming as any urbanite is likely to get. Explains in Clarksons.Farm.S05E04 why I ended up listening to The Cause... eh The Corrs...
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
edited June 24
The scifi on Apple TV is pretty amazing. So many fantastic shows, all with a different sort of style. For All Mankind, Silo, Foundation, Severance, and I just finished the one season of Pluribus which may be the best of them.
If anyone has watched Pluribus it'd be fun to discuss the premise which I think has some real tension for spiritually minded folks. Whether the peace and harmony of the hive mind (not really a spoiler as its revealed in like the first 15 minutes) is better than or worth the erasure of individual agency, thought and emotion.
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JeroenNot all those who wander are lostNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
The scifi on Apple TV is pretty amazing. So many fantastic shows, all with a different sort of style. For All Mankind, Silo, Foundation, Severance, and I just finished the one season of Pluribus which may be the best of them.
If anyone has watched Pluribus it'd be fun to discuss the premise which I think has some real tension for spiritually minded folks. Whether the peace and harmony of the hive mind (not really a spoiler as its revealed in like the first 15 minutes) is better than or worth the erasure of individual agency and thought.
I agree with you, lots of good shows on Apple TV, even going outside sci fi there are some nice ones like The Morning Show and Ted Lasso. I’ve not watched Pluribus (or Silo), but watched a few trailers for when I next dip my toe in. I think it’s quite a good deal because the quality of the shows is better than say Netflix, imho.
If anyone has watched Pluribus it'd be fun to discuss the premise which I think has some real tension for spiritually minded folks.
Agree it was an excellent series. Wonderful ending too (to start series 2 on)
If you are interested in the tension of the premise between individual agency and an undifferentiated collective you might like this. Its long, but the first couple paragraphs gives the outline to test the waters and see if the proposed solution makes sense to you.
JeroenNot all those who wander are lostNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
The scifi on Apple TV is pretty amazing. So many fantastic shows, all with a different sort of style. For All Mankind, Silo, Foundation, Severance, and I just finished the one season of Pluribus which may be the best of them.
If anyone has watched Pluribus it'd be fun to discuss the premise which I think has some real tension for spiritually minded folks. Whether the peace and harmony of the hive mind (not really a spoiler as its revealed in like the first 15 minutes) is better than or worth the erasure of individual agency, thought and emotion.
I just finished watching the first season of Pluribus, and throughout I got the feeling that I was watching something that had an aspect of truth. The cosmic mind must be a kind of unified mind as it is presented in Pluribus, and many mystics talk about it as being a unity. So in a way the unified mind state is a kind of enlightenment, though perhaps not exactly the Buddha’s enlightenment, perhaps more enlightenment as the Advaita Vedanta disciples believe.
Personally, I don’t think individual human thought is worth so very much. It seems to me the negatives of individuality far outweigh the positives. And also in Pluribus it is kind of clear that the individual selves still exist on some level. Zosia is able to recall her childhood near Gdansk, for example, if you were truly absorbed by a hive mind wouldn’t memory disappear as well?
Really enjoyed the first season, and disappointed when it ended.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@person said:
The scifi on Apple TV is pretty amazing. So many fantastic shows, all with a different sort of style. For All Mankind, Silo, Foundation, Severance, and I just finished the one season of Pluribus which may be the best of them.
If anyone has watched Pluribus it'd be fun to discuss the premise which I think has some real tension for spiritually minded folks. Whether the peace and harmony of the hive mind (not really a spoiler as its revealed in like the first 15 minutes) is better than or worth the erasure of individual agency, thought and emotion.
I just finished watching the first season of Pluribus, and throughout I got the feeling that I was watching something that had an aspect of truth. The cosmic mind must be a kind of unified mind as it is presented in Pluribus, and many mystics talk about it as being a unity. So in a way the unified mind state is a kind of enlightenment, though perhaps not exactly the Buddha’s enlightenment, perhaps more enlightenment as the Advaita Vedanta disciples believe.
Personally, I don’t think individual human thought is worth so very much. It seems to me the negatives of individuality far outweigh the positives. And also in Pluribus it is kind of clear that the individual selves still exist on some level. Zosia is able to recall her childhood near Gdansk, for example, if you were truly absorbed by a hive mind wouldn’t memory disappear as well?
Really enjoyed the first season, and disappointed when it ended.
I understood it as they have all the memories of everyone. So Zosia is able to express those particular memories, but she'd equally be able to recall the memories of anyone else.
There was a moment when Carol had a perspective that the hive mind hadn't considered. So while its hard to argue against the many obvious positives of the hive mind I think over time it would lack the needed diversity to come up with original ideas and solutions leading to stagnation.
Which kind of relates to my general theory of the origin of the signal. Perhaps it came from a planet where resources were abundant and easily accessible so that the efficiency and passivity of the hive is more adaptive. So they perhaps thought they were helping humanity out but applying that attitude in our environment is extinctionary.
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JeroenNot all those who wander are lostNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
I understood it as they have all the memories of everyone. So Zosia is able to express those particular memories, but she'd equally be able to recall the memories of anyone else.
Yes, but also as if those people were available to question. For example, when Zosia was talking about whether Helen liked the Wychara books, she talked in the past tense, but when the Peruvian girl joined the hive mind she “was now the happiest she had ever been”.
The fact that Helen’s memories were still there in the hive mind makes for some interesting metaphysics. Her body has died, but perhaps Helen will be able to come back, because her essence is still there in the hive mind, setting up a love triangle with Zosia and Carol.
There was a moment when Carol had a perspective that the hive mind hadn't considered. So while it’s hard to argue against the many obvious positives of the hive mind I think over time it would lack the needed diversity to come up with original ideas and solutions leading to stagnation.
I don’t know about that… what I tend to read into Manousos’ radio exploration is that it’s a kind of telepathy via electrical radio signal which leads to the hive mind, which means the individual mind is still there, it is just synchronised somehow to the hive mind. In any case I don’t think Zosia shows the kind of inability to come up with new ideas… after all they are still able to do advanced science like working with stem cells.
Which kind of relates to my general theory of the origin of the signal. Perhaps it came from a planet where resources were abundant and easily accessible so that the efficiency and passivity of the hive is more adaptive. So they perhaps thought they were helping humanity out but applying that attitude in our environment is extinctionary.
Is it really extinctionary? 7 billion humans is too many in any case, so that a large percentage of the population would die off is not really a bad thing in my eyes, it’s just bringing nature and the human population back into balance. Something that is hinted at by Carol encountering various animals, like the wolves and the buffalo on the golf course.
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JeroenNot all those who wander are lostNetherlandsVeteran
I just bought this restored version of Lawrence of Arabia for 3.99 on iTunes.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@person said:
I understood it as they have all the memories of everyone. So Zosia is able to express those particular memories, but she'd equally be able to recall the memories of anyone else.
Yes, but also as if those people were available to question. For example, when Zosia was talking about whether Helen liked the Wychara books, she talked in the past tense, but when the Peruvian girl joined the hive mind she “was now the happiest she had ever been”.
The fact that Helen’s memories were still there in the hive mind makes for some interesting metaphysics. Her body has died, but perhaps Helen will be able to come back, because her essence is still there in the hive mind, setting up a love triangle with Zosia and Carol.
There was a moment when Carol had a perspective that the hive mind hadn't considered. So while it’s hard to argue against the many obvious positives of the hive mind I think over time it would lack the needed diversity to come up with original ideas and solutions leading to stagnation.
I don’t know about that… what I tend to read into Manousos’ radio exploration is that it’s a kind of telepathy via electrical radio signal which leads to the hive mind, which means the individual mind is still there, it is just synchronised somehow to the hive mind. In any case I don’t think Zosia shows the kind of inability to come up with new ideas… after all they are still able to do advanced science like working with stem cells.
I'm thinking down the road further once they lose the memories from the previous individuals, like once its only new people who have always been hive mind. But I suppose that goes against the extinction theory...
Which kind of relates to my general theory of the origin of the signal. Perhaps it came from a planet where resources were abundant and easily accessible so that the efficiency and passivity of the hive is more adaptive. So they perhaps thought they were helping humanity out but applying that attitude in our environment is extinctionary.
Is it really extinctionary? 7 billion humans is too many in any case, so that a large percentage of the population would die off is not really a bad thing in my eyes, it’s just bringing nature and the human population back into balance. Something that is hinted at by Carol encountering various animals, like the wolves and the buffalo on the golf course.
It seems they'll eventually run out of food, no? Extinction is very different from a dramatically lower population. In my mind there's a moral difference between people dying off and lower birthrates in the way humanity comes to a lower population.
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JeroenNot all those who wander are lostNetherlandsVeteran
@person said:
It seems they'll eventually run out of food, no? Extinction is very different from a dramatically lower population. In my mind there's a moral difference between people dying off and lower birthrates in the way humanity comes to a lower population.
Certainly “not being able to pick an apple” seems to take the non-violence principle rather too far. Apples are meant to be picked, it’s part of the tree’s evolutionary strategy for spreading its seeds more widely. The tree benefits, the animal benefits. If the Others don’t allow themselves to fit in within nature’s patterns indeed survival for the race becomes an issue.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
Back to the individual agency aspect. In D&D necromancy was the sort of thing that was thought of as evil, and still is. But in a much greater way today enchantment magic is also considered pretty evil. Taking away another human's agency, controlling their actions. This is an essential part of the hive mind's imperative, to absorb others into it even in the case of Carol who explicitly says she doesn't want it. Someone like the Peruvian girl who voluntarily joined is different than being forced into it, and then once in it the hive mind can decide you'll be a janitor even though you've spent your life pursuing your passion for music, or maybe be a sex slave to Koumba.
I also found the idea that it was these two very disagreeable people in Carol and Manousos who may end up being responsible for saving humanity. In their before life it probably caused them much conflict and difficulty, but now in this new context its extremely adaptive and beneficial.
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JeroenNot all those who wander are lostNetherlandsVeteran
I must admit, I find myself kind of rooting for the hive mind, or maybe some halfway house solution which keeps the best of both worlds. Much of individuality is programmed in anyway, from the things we copy from parents very early on like smiling, to our pursuit of money and happiness. Many spiritual teachers like Tony Parsons tell us that the individual disappears after enlightenment, so how is enlightenment different from the hive mind?
The question of enchantment in D&D being evil by taking away the agency is a fair point, but it is a question to what extent the hive mind takes away agency. Perhaps it only provides a drive to harmony and some coordination, and relies on the blissed out individual agents to actually act. In this case it would be coordinated action through consent. These things the show hasn’t really made clear yet.
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personDon't believe everything you thinkThe liminal spaceVeteran
@Jeroen said:
I must admit, I find myself kind of rooting for the hive mind, or maybe some halfway house solution which keeps the best of both worlds.
There is a certain appeal to the hive mind. Humans are naturally cooperative at small scales when we personally know each individual. The problem comes at larger scales when people become strangers. Yuval Noah Harari talks about the power of stories to help humans cooperate at larger scales. Not stories like LOTR, stories more like religions or nations. I don't know someone personally but maybe we're both Buddhist from the US? The hive mind solves that anonymity problem.
Much of individuality is programmed in anyway, from the things we copy from parents very early on like smiling, to our pursuit of money and happiness.
In the free will debate I generally feel like there's an important moral difference in our freedom in deciding to jump in the lake vs being pushed into the lake even if at some level both things are deterministic.
Many spiritual teachers like Tony Parsons tell us that the individual disappears after enlightenment, so how is enlightenment different from the hive mind?
Its a good question. Early on in my spiritual life the question whether the ways different traditions talk about the enlightened state may sound different, but if in reality they aren't the same realization. I don't think I can answer that, but it does seem reasonable to imagine that there are different sorts of deep and profound mind states in the deep end of the pool.
Regarding the hive mind's relation to enlightenment, I think I might argue along the lines of the Two Truths. The enlightened individual self would be different than the hive mind's collective self on the conventional level. Highly realized people still have unique perspectives and personality quirks.
The question of enchantment in D&D being evil by taking away the agency is a fair point, but it is a question to what extent the hive mind takes away agency. Perhaps it only provides a drive to harmony and some coordination, and relies on the blissed out individual agents to actually act. In this case it would be coordinated action through consent. These things the show hasn’t really made clear yet.
Its possible, we don't fully understand how it operates. I haven't seen any indication that any of them have the ability to act independently so far.
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JeroenNot all those who wander are lostNetherlandsVeteran
edited September 4
The thing is, if the hive mind is possible, so is telepathy, and a whole range of other possibilities including empaths less extreme than the hive mind members. I saw on the Wikipedia page that originally Pluribus was commissioned for only two seasons but I feel there are a lot of possible outcomes that they could involve. Might well require a season three.
You’re right when you say we haven’t seen any of the Others give an impression of individuality, they certainly all seem to move in a coordinated fashion. But take Koumba’s poker session in Las Vegas, where he has a whole group of Others play individuals and even reminds one to ‘stay in character’. That implies they can act as individuals, not just as themselves but potentially a range. They had to in the very beginning as well, in order to stay hidden while expanding their coverage after the initial infection.
So they certainly have the ability to act wholly as their former selves, at least. Whether they also have both the will and the desire to say no to the hive mind remains to be seen. That Helen on her deathbed said yes to joining the hive mind implies there is a degree of choice, also seen in the Peruvian girl’s joining ceremony. But what Zosia half-said to Carol was that her joining might not be voluntary? Guess we will have to find out.
It's a much better thought experiment than a show. But I'm glad it was made, will tune in for season 2. It reminds me of a webcomic I've read (2/3 of, because that was available for free). It's called Righteous and it's about a "virus" that's basically kindness, so when it changes the life of a selfish corporate man and he starts spreading it, the world seem to become a better place. Now, I was constantly expecting for something to go wrong, after all it's about the elimination of free will, but apparently the author felt we'd be better off without it. Still, it was a captivating read, might finish it up sometime. For now, I'm just watching Slow Horses on Apple, I enjoy it a lot, always looking forward to a day off when I can grind through the next season.
Comments
I just watched the 1998 movie "The Sphere" .
Impressive cast… Dustin Hoffman, Samuel L Jackson, Sharon Stone. But was it good?
I really liked that movie. Most people hate it. Too Hollywood-y, + the ending... but I thought it was one of the better sci-fi mysteries.
I enjoyed it too. It stretched the imagination.
Can't remember if I recommended it earlier in the thread. But the HBO show The Pitt started its second season. Its an emergency room drama with an older Noah Wyle (the young doctor on the old NBC ER show). Its the sort of show that appeals to a broad section of people and won Emmys for the first season.
I'm really hyped about this. I wish theaters would show it where I live, but they aren't going to so I have to wait until it gets released in some other country on physical/digital media. I loved the previous film of the director Long Day's Journey Into Night from 2018, it was purely sensational, what cinema was meant to be. I expect nothing less from this.
I also watched some Tsai Ming-liang films. He has a "walker" series where he films a monk just walking very slowly. I'll get to it sometime, for now, Goodbye, Dragon Inn was my favorite, a meditative piece on cinema. Taipei Suicide Story was also a favorite of mine, different director and only 45 minutes. It was a great way to start the year, with so many amazing experiences.
Beautiful Tibetan Buddhist short film ...Enjoy 🙏🙏🙏
SUPERMONK
I've been watching "The Lying King" on reality TV
This won Best Picture at the Oscars…
'One battle after Another' was a little silly but great fun.
Much like this film...
A show from 2011-16, Person of Interest. Its about an ASI and its developer who use it off the record to save people's lives. At the time the mass surveillance angle seemed very pertinent and the ASI a bit of an interesting afterthought. Though watching again through today's lens all the surveillance stuff barely moves the needle and the AI concerns hit harder. A lot of the surveillance worries have been solved for, but a lot of them a think are just a matter of we don't really care so much anymore. On the AI front it spends time wrestling with many of the worries that we have today. Its also a pretty good show in its own right.
As some of you know I am a movie.
I move about a lot, in case I get filmed.
Lately I have been eating cookies with cookie monster...
https://wehavecookies.social/explore
See you on set sometime...
I enjoyed this simple feel-good movie. The producer is from Little Miss Sunshine. Free on youtube.
I watched the 2024 movie Civil War ...It's about the perspective of the journalists moving through a collapsing United States. As they travel toward Washington, D.C., what they encounter is like snapshots of different mini-conflicts rather than one coherent war.
I saw Project Hail Mary yesterday and enjoyed it. Definitely not your typical movie. I don't want to spoil it but it's more a thoughtful movie rather than constant action. My partner who doesn't like science fiction liked Ryan Gosling and the alien
I recommended the movie to my barber. She said she didn't like scifi and I emphasized the relationship between Grace and Rocky, it gave the movie a heart that the Martian didn't have.
My TV died and I had to get a new one. It came with a 30 day free trial of Apple TV. So, asking if anyone has any recommendations for good things to watch there.
It depends on your tastes, I think, but there are many award-winning series on there. I liked Foundation, the sci fi series based on the works of Asimov, and Severance, the office drama with a twist. For All Mankind was also good. Pluribus I’ve heard good things about.
For movies there are a few exclusives you might want to catch, like F1: The Movie, Wolfs, Napoleon and Greyhound. It’s not the greatest platform for movies but there are some nice ones.
A very gripping SF story. An interesting 'invasion' premise. Well developed and told.
I enjoyed it.
I've been wanting to watch Unforgiven (1992). Tomorrow I will make some pop-corn and watch it!
The greatest western ever made, in my opinion. I won’t spoil it for you but you’re in for a treat!
My favourite Western, stars former James Bond
mmm... I has popcorn... I has Western worth rewatching?
Cowboys & Aliens was rather silly…
Remarkably Bright Creatures is a drama narrated by an Octopus. I enjoyed
I've been enjoying For All Mankind on Apple TV. Its an alternate history if the Soviets had been first to the moon and continued the space race. It imagines moon bases by the 80s and people on Mars in the 90s. Plus a lot of alternate timelines, like where the Trailblazers draft Michael Jordan rather than passing on him or Ted Kennedy winning the Democratic nomination over Jimmy Carter to become president.
Yep! The sillier the better. I will watch almost anything SF.
Alternative timelines @person?
Maybe you would like the series 'Hello Tomorrow'
I very much enjoyed this documentary/movie about the soccer team of American Samoa, 'the worst football team by FIFA ranking who never won a game or scored a goal'.
Oh yes! Australia beat them 31-0 I recall. Archie Thompson scored 13
I've been watching a surreal Si Fi movie, I think it's called "This is Dystopia" ....Oh bugger! No wait...it turns out I've just been watching the mainstream news.
I have been watching 'Clarksons Farm' which is as close to 'real' farming as any urbanite is likely to get. Explains in Clarksons.Farm.S05E04 why I ended up listening to The Cause... eh The Corrs...
The scifi on Apple TV is pretty amazing. So many fantastic shows, all with a different sort of style. For All Mankind, Silo, Foundation, Severance, and I just finished the one season of Pluribus which may be the best of them.
If anyone has watched Pluribus it'd be fun to discuss the premise which I think has some real tension for spiritually minded folks. Whether the peace and harmony of the hive mind (not really a spoiler as its revealed in like the first 15 minutes) is better than or worth the erasure of individual agency, thought and emotion.
I agree with you, lots of good shows on Apple TV, even going outside sci fi there are some nice ones like The Morning Show and Ted Lasso. I’ve not watched Pluribus (or Silo), but watched a few trailers for when I next dip my toe in. I think it’s quite a good deal because the quality of the shows is better than say Netflix, imho.
The Sheep Detectives
Fun for all the sheep
Here is one NOT to watch.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/jun/30/elon-musk-citizen-vigilante-immigration
I watched 3 minutes of it and it was clearly Nazi right wing propaganda. From the Nazi Elon Musk. Disgusting, shameful!
I watched and enjoyed the Korean dubbed 'version' of 'Back to the future/past':
Alieniod. Stranger than Dr Who. Taoism and Buddhism (sort of) included...
Agree it was an excellent series. Wonderful ending too (to start series 2 on)
If you are interested in the tension of the premise between individual agency and an undifferentiated collective you might like this. Its long, but the first couple paragraphs gives the outline to test the waters and see if the proposed solution makes sense to you.
https://arrowofmorality.org/coherent-pluralism.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawS3zA1leHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETFRY3pPam9hVUpETEJBZjZxc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQQMjIyMDM5MTc4ODIwMDg5MgABHtiA84Qpmyb-HtDHwPLQ661vS2w0q9rIg5RmqNYlWcT5SgxVs9DJ9JU0s34v_aem_QHircDrSpc68RcvbAqmOjg
I just finished watching the first season of Pluribus, and throughout I got the feeling that I was watching something that had an aspect of truth. The cosmic mind must be a kind of unified mind as it is presented in Pluribus, and many mystics talk about it as being a unity. So in a way the unified mind state is a kind of enlightenment, though perhaps not exactly the Buddha’s enlightenment, perhaps more enlightenment as the Advaita Vedanta disciples believe.
Personally, I don’t think individual human thought is worth so very much. It seems to me the negatives of individuality far outweigh the positives. And also in Pluribus it is kind of clear that the individual selves still exist on some level. Zosia is able to recall her childhood near Gdansk, for example, if you were truly absorbed by a hive mind wouldn’t memory disappear as well?
Really enjoyed the first season, and disappointed when it ended.
I understood it as they have all the memories of everyone. So Zosia is able to express those particular memories, but she'd equally be able to recall the memories of anyone else.
There was a moment when Carol had a perspective that the hive mind hadn't considered. So while its hard to argue against the many obvious positives of the hive mind I think over time it would lack the needed diversity to come up with original ideas and solutions leading to stagnation.
Which kind of relates to my general theory of the origin of the signal. Perhaps it came from a planet where resources were abundant and easily accessible so that the efficiency and passivity of the hive is more adaptive. So they perhaps thought they were helping humanity out but applying that attitude in our environment is extinctionary.
Yes, but also as if those people were available to question. For example, when Zosia was talking about whether Helen liked the Wychara books, she talked in the past tense, but when the Peruvian girl joined the hive mind she “was now the happiest she had ever been”.
The fact that Helen’s memories were still there in the hive mind makes for some interesting metaphysics. Her body has died, but perhaps Helen will be able to come back, because her essence is still there in the hive mind, setting up a love triangle with Zosia and Carol.
I don’t know about that… what I tend to read into Manousos’ radio exploration is that it’s a kind of telepathy via electrical radio signal which leads to the hive mind, which means the individual mind is still there, it is just synchronised somehow to the hive mind. In any case I don’t think Zosia shows the kind of inability to come up with new ideas… after all they are still able to do advanced science like working with stem cells.
Is it really extinctionary? 7 billion humans is too many in any case, so that a large percentage of the population would die off is not really a bad thing in my eyes, it’s just bringing nature and the human population back into balance. Something that is hinted at by Carol encountering various animals, like the wolves and the buffalo on the golf course.
I just bought this restored version of Lawrence of Arabia for 3.99 on iTunes.
I'm thinking down the road further once they lose the memories from the previous individuals, like once its only new people who have always been hive mind. But I suppose that goes against the extinction theory...
It seems they'll eventually run out of food, no? Extinction is very different from a dramatically lower population. In my mind there's a moral difference between people dying off and lower birthrates in the way humanity comes to a lower population.
Certainly “not being able to pick an apple” seems to take the non-violence principle rather too far. Apples are meant to be picked, it’s part of the tree’s evolutionary strategy for spreading its seeds more widely. The tree benefits, the animal benefits. If the Others don’t allow themselves to fit in within nature’s patterns indeed survival for the race becomes an issue.
Back to the individual agency aspect. In D&D necromancy was the sort of thing that was thought of as evil, and still is. But in a much greater way today enchantment magic is also considered pretty evil. Taking away another human's agency, controlling their actions. This is an essential part of the hive mind's imperative, to absorb others into it even in the case of Carol who explicitly says she doesn't want it. Someone like the Peruvian girl who voluntarily joined is different than being forced into it, and then once in it the hive mind can decide you'll be a janitor even though you've spent your life pursuing your passion for music, or maybe be a sex slave to Koumba.
I also found the idea that it was these two very disagreeable people in Carol and Manousos who may end up being responsible for saving humanity. In their before life it probably caused them much conflict and difficulty, but now in this new context its extremely adaptive and beneficial.
I must admit, I find myself kind of rooting for the hive mind, or maybe some halfway house solution which keeps the best of both worlds. Much of individuality is programmed in anyway, from the things we copy from parents very early on like smiling, to our pursuit of money and happiness. Many spiritual teachers like Tony Parsons tell us that the individual disappears after enlightenment, so how is enlightenment different from the hive mind?
The question of enchantment in D&D being evil by taking away the agency is a fair point, but it is a question to what extent the hive mind takes away agency. Perhaps it only provides a drive to harmony and some coordination, and relies on the blissed out individual agents to actually act. In this case it would be coordinated action through consent. These things the show hasn’t really made clear yet.
There is a certain appeal to the hive mind. Humans are naturally cooperative at small scales when we personally know each individual. The problem comes at larger scales when people become strangers. Yuval Noah Harari talks about the power of stories to help humans cooperate at larger scales. Not stories like LOTR, stories more like religions or nations. I don't know someone personally but maybe we're both Buddhist from the US? The hive mind solves that anonymity problem.
In the free will debate I generally feel like there's an important moral difference in our freedom in deciding to jump in the lake vs being pushed into the lake even if at some level both things are deterministic.
Its a good question. Early on in my spiritual life the question whether the ways different traditions talk about the enlightened state may sound different, but if in reality they aren't the same realization. I don't think I can answer that, but it does seem reasonable to imagine that there are different sorts of deep and profound mind states in the deep end of the pool.
Regarding the hive mind's relation to enlightenment, I think I might argue along the lines of the Two Truths. The enlightened individual self would be different than the hive mind's collective self on the conventional level. Highly realized people still have unique perspectives and personality quirks.
Its possible, we don't fully understand how it operates. I haven't seen any indication that any of them have the ability to act independently so far.
The thing is, if the hive mind is possible, so is telepathy, and a whole range of other possibilities including empaths less extreme than the hive mind members. I saw on the Wikipedia page that originally Pluribus was commissioned for only two seasons but I feel there are a lot of possible outcomes that they could involve. Might well require a season three.
You’re right when you say we haven’t seen any of the Others give an impression of individuality, they certainly all seem to move in a coordinated fashion. But take Koumba’s poker session in Las Vegas, where he has a whole group of Others play individuals and even reminds one to ‘stay in character’. That implies they can act as individuals, not just as themselves but potentially a range. They had to in the very beginning as well, in order to stay hidden while expanding their coverage after the initial infection.
So they certainly have the ability to act wholly as their former selves, at least. Whether they also have both the will and the desire to say no to the hive mind remains to be seen. That Helen on her deathbed said yes to joining the hive mind implies there is a degree of choice, also seen in the Peruvian girl’s joining ceremony. But what Zosia half-said to Carol was that her joining might not be voluntary? Guess we will have to find out.
It's a much better thought experiment than a show. But I'm glad it was made, will tune in for season 2. It reminds me of a webcomic I've read (2/3 of, because that was available for free). It's called Righteous and it's about a "virus" that's basically kindness, so when it changes the life of a selfish corporate man and he starts spreading it, the world seem to become a better place. Now, I was constantly expecting for something to go wrong, after all it's about the elimination of free will, but apparently the author felt we'd be better off without it.
Still, it was a captivating read, might finish it up sometime. For now, I'm just watching Slow Horses on Apple, I enjoy it a lot, always looking forward to a day off when I can grind through the next season.