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No constitutional protection for abortion in the US

JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matterNetherlands Veteran
edited June 24 in General Banter

Seems the leaked draft from the Supreme Court overturning Roe vs Wade was accurate. Today the Supreme Court cancelled the constitutional protection for abortion, returning law-making powers in this area to the government and the people, by a vote of 6-3.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/19-1392_6j37.pdf
https://www.nytimes.com/

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Comments

  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran
    edited June 24

    Better never means better for everyone

  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited June 25

    This is an improvement over Puritan New England. Back then, when women went to midwives for abortions (usually done by massaging the abdomen, but sometimes by herbs), both the patient and the midwife were burned alive at the stake as "witches".

    Things can always be worse then they seem...

    America hasn't strayed far from its roots. Or rather, there are plenty of people who would have us return to our roots when the culture does stray.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    It's official folks: America is one fucked-up country. And I don't give a flying shit about "an improvement over Puritan New England". It's a backward, misogynistic, controlling patriarchal overbearing step, and women everywhere will know that America is therefore backward in every sense of the word.

    VastmindJeffreyFosdick
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    I think the right over your own body is pretty fundamental. The NYT was saying as many as 50% of the states would legislate against abortion, which means that if you happen to live in one of those states you’d have to arrange a longish trip to a friendly state, which for a lot of young women may be out of reach.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran
    edited June 25

    Some of the conservative states have been putting laws into place that would enact very draconian measures if Roe ever was replaced and this will be a big step back for women in many of those places.

    It should be noted though that many European countries have stricter abortion standards than where the US was at. I think prior to this Mississippi was proposing to basically meet Frances standards of a cutoff at 15 weeks except for the health of the mother and I don't think an exception for rape.
    https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-it-harder-get-abortion-europe-america-1705305

    I really haven't gotten into the ramifications of the ruling yet. The country is already super divided and heated, the fallout could get ugly.

    Steve_B
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    @person said:
    I really haven't gotten into the ramifications of the ruling yet.

    The dissent is a really interesting part of the ruling as a whole, I’d suggest reading that first. The dissenting judges remarks begin on page 148 of the PDF decision.

    The country is already super divided and heated, the fallout could get ugly.

    The problem is the way power is organised, where in order to become a supreme court judge you have to be put forward by a president who will support one of the two big parties. So party allegiance becomes crucial throughout the top of the judges profession.

    It comes down to the two party system again, its fundamentally very unhealthy for politics.

    Fosdick
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited June 25

    Yes it is a very saddening outcome but not much of a surprise?

    Whether as an individual or a society, the inability to discern what's true and what isn't, seems completely proportional to the degree that a said individual or society transcends or attaches to suffering's true causes.

    Is it plausible to ask others to abandon their own attachments before we can actually demonstrate what an abandonment of our own attachments actually looks like?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    47% of Americans attend Church and believe in God. (The figure used to be much higher, but it's still pretty roughly half the country.) In the UK it's 27% and in France, 30%. The difference is, that neither the UK nor France, permit Religion to influence Politics. Country laws in those two countries, are not affected or moved by religious argument, whereas in the USA, it's a whole different kettle of loaves and fishes...

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited June 25

    Yep, it’s official. We’re a theocracy now.

    Spent most of yesterday crying. Today….working with groups that are helping with camping trips. If you live in a state where camping is now criminal…..there are tons of people who can assist. Pick you up in RV’s….help with booking camp sites…camping supplies….anything needed. Camp organizers are on IG and tons on TT. ….Stay safe Ladies and use the networks being set up. No one is coming to save us.

    Get to know your neighbors. Talk, organize. The network has to work offline too.

    All politics are local. Vote local. Vote Blue.

    The Human Rights Campaign can use your support, the ACLU, planned parenthood. Get pissed and get involved.

    Asshole Thomas made it clear gay rights and contraceptives are next.

    And last, but not least…..Fuck the Christians in this country. I’m no longer agreeing to disagree. If you don’t have the same morals and values that I do….go to hell. Figuratively or literally. I don’t care which one.

    Men…. If you’re against abortion for any reason, get a god damn vasectomy!

    lobsterShoshin1howJeffrey
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    I think :( at first heartbeat medical visit the dad should be billed 50% and start paying child support. If DNA later rules out them as the father then they should be reimbursed 1/2 but the remaining money considered to go towards medical research, activism, and education towards unwanted pregnancy prevention.

    Vastmindlobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    I'd vote for you. @Jeffrey !

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    As we know Buddhas mother was aborted, a son was worth more than a wife.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/wonderlane/40012956084

    … Great post from @Vastmind
    Long live women, mens best creation. o:)

  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran

    Am I missing something ???

    So in a nut shell the Religious Right's righteous approach to life in general.... if the child is yet to be born it's protected,(Anti Abortion) but after birth it would seem it's fair game...(Anti Gun Control)

    Hmm it's a clear cut case of ""Hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue.""

    And the Hypocrisy Award goes to....

    The Religious Right....for such an outstanding performance/display in religious hypocrisy and intolerance...

    lobsterVastmind
  • DakiniDakini Veteran

    I just found out, that abortion is still illegal in Germany! O.o But if done within the first trimester of pregnancy, the law is disregarded. There is no punishment. But in order to get an abortion, the patient needs to make an appointment with a government office to get counseling prior to the abortion. And abortion is induced by some kind of medication. Abortion any later than the 1st trimester is illegal and will be prosecuted, except for in rape cases, or if the mother's health is endangered by the pregnancy.

    Wow. I wonder how that compares to other European countries that allow abortion. I wonder what the policies are.

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    Abortion in the Netherlands is legal in the first trimester, no difficult questions asked, and in the second trimester there are a series of legal tests that are applied.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Most abortions in England, Wales and Scotland are carried out before 24 weeks of pregnancy. They can be carried out after 24 weeks in very limited circumstances.

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran
    edited June 26

    I never really thought this would happen. Its kind of like the dog who has been chasing cars for 50 years finally caught it and I'm spending time catching up on what it all means.

    Most people in the US are in favor of some sort of legal abortion early on with a cutoff somewhere between 15 and 24 weeks and then limited use for health reasons or rape. The problem with our country right now is that the 10-20% at the extremes are controlling the narratives for the 80% somewhere in the middle who are willing to compromise and make reasonable legislation.

    I'm more on board with Andrew Yang this cycle and part of what he is talking about is how our primary election system is set up to reward the most extreme politicians rather than politicians that the majority would like in the general elections. Much of our electoral system is for all practical purposes unchangeable due to the high amount of agreement needed to make such changes. But changes in our primary process or a ranked choice voting method are possibilities.

    Anyway, learning more about abortion laws I'm discovering that abortion policy here in the US on a national level hasn't really been based off of law, its Roe that has been guaranteeing rights. As opposed to European countries, since they've been brought up, who have passed laws protecting abortion. EDIT: Apparently the case that was used to overturn Roe was the Mississippi law that models France's law, was considered unconstitutional under Roe.

    The most horrific things I've heard about even before the repeal was government prosecutors using phone and internet data to prosecute (unsuccessfully pre repeal) women trying to prove that they had abortions rather than miscarriages by seeing where they've traveled and searches they've made.

    My state will likely preserve abortion rights. But the predictions are that all the states around us will make them much more restrictive. I wonder if that will make my state something of a haven or a destination for the surrounding areas and what that might mean for women traveling across state lines.

    As bad as this will be in those states passing really harsh laws, the right has been using abortion as an electoral ploy to gain votes. My hope is that this change will motivate people to vote and pass laws guaranteeing protections.

    DavidhowShoshin1FleaMarket
  • DavidDavid A human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First Nations Veteran

    Why does this call The Novice by Thich Nhat Hanh to my mind?

    Some would try to claim that women could not be enlightened but it was more like generally, men can not be trusted when making decisions for women.

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    Perhaps there should be a more serious look at women’s issues in the constitution. After all it was entirely written by men in a patriarchal society. I can imagine a referendum among women only in order to survey and enact the most important issues.

  • FleaMarketFleaMarket Newbie, not Veteran

    Does this mean the decision is no longer "untouchable" since the Supreme Court let it go, and its placed in the hands of the people and their state reps? Has this ever been something people can vote on or hold their reps accountable to before?

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran

    @FleaMarket said:
    Does this mean the decision is no longer "untouchable" since the Supreme Court let it go, and its placed in the hands of the people and their state reps? Has this ever been something people can vote on or hold their reps accountable to before?

    Thats basically what it comes down to. The federal government could still legislate something country wide, and that would override local state law.

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran

    Watch the video Aunt Fede posted above.

    federicaShoshin1
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited June 27

    Here’s the latest ruling…
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-backs-praying-coach-140821248.html

    Working in a Federal building for 23 years, I’ve always been a captive audience to this stuff. Last couple of years, I’ve either stood up in defiance or have simply left the meeting, town hall…whatever. They even lead prayers on our civilian employee appreciation days….and yes, we have yearly training videos on diversity and inclusion. It’s a joke.

    And yes, one time I started chanting and was asked to leave. When I’ve placed Buddha or like items in my cubicle…I would arrive at work with pamphlets and other church propaganda placed in my chair. Upper management did nothing. The outspoken and loud Jew at work ( shout out to Alice) and I have been a pain the ass to them for a long time. We will continue to be.

    Also…our Miranda rights have been modified last week….I’ll let you look that up, if you’re interested. Men get arrested too, so I suggest any American men here know the change.

    Steve_B
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Vastmind said:...Also…our Miranda rights have been modified last week….I’ll let you look that up, if you’re interested. Men get arrested too, so I suggest any American men here know the change.

    So, slowly slowly, everyone's rights are being quietly eroded and taken away, and America is turning into the Dystopian Establishment 1984 prematurely predicted.
    The land of the free and the home of the brave...?
    My fucking arse.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    @how said:

    When it suits I will show compassion for the angry moment, the desperate, the bigot and thoughtless.

    The cult of the dead god also known as Christianity is not responsible. Maybe it never has been …

    Who can imagine if they were not born … Unborn in fact. That is a hard place. Unpopular.

    Are you kind to your righteous anger? Adopting others pain?

  • FleaMarketFleaMarket Newbie, not Veteran

    From a legislative perspective, what is the likelihood for right-to-choice laws to be voted on and adopted throughout the local, state, federal level going forward? I'd think allowing for it to be voted on would show our majority interest for choice rather quickly?

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran
    edited June 28

    @FleaMarket said:

    From a legislative perspective, what is the likelihood for right-to-choice laws to be voted on and adopted throughout the local, state, federal level going forward? I'd think allowing for it to be voted on would show our majority interest for choice rather quickly?

    State by state it will vary widely. Many red (Republican) states are implementing some seriously harsh and draconian laws. Virginia's Republican governor, on the other hand, is proposing basically France's 15 week cutoff.

    Going forward though, there are going to be many horror stories and gross injustices that will begin to put a face to prolife policies that have up until now mostly been imagined fears. We're not unavoidably stuck in a dystopian downward spiral, this will trigger a response in the opposite direction.

    Shoshin1Jeffrey
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited June 28

    Will it? We’ll see. You’re more optimistic than I am. If it does, it must have triggered the “right” people this time. Black/brown women and Indigenous women have been sounding the alarm for a long time. Hillary warned us what would happen if the far right got those Court seats. It’s gonna come down to voter turnout…. Or money…. WITH the American peoples ability to educate themselves on this shit and know what’s going on and how.I’m not hyper confident about that, either

    lobster
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran

    Some of the more extremist laws might make it so that if a women has a miscarriage she will be investigated by the police into whether it was a deliberate action that resulted in a miscarriage. We have extremists on the Supreme Court such as Clarence Thomas.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    A work of fiction televised in the UK.

    "The Handmaid's Tale
    2017 ‧ Sci-fi ‧ 4 seasons
    The Handmaid's Tale is the story of life in the dystopia of Gilead, a totalitarian society in what was the United States. Gilead is ruled by a fundamentalist regime that treats women as property of the state."

    I'm sorry. Did I say Fiction?

    lobster
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 28

    It's possible the UK may become faced with a tidal wave of women emigrating from the USA to here, in order to actually live normal lives and not be under the control of such an oppressive regime.

    And WE'LL take that Liberty Statue, thank you very much. and plant it in OUR Plymouth Sound.

    (Notable events, #3)

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    The Handmaid's Tale

    I watched the first series. It was grim.

    The anger that @federica expresses and others also send us is skilful or wrathful. America is a nightmare for some. Unsafe.

    @Vastmind said:
    And last, but not least…..Fuck the Christians in this country. I’m no longer agreeing to disagree. If you don’t have the same morals and values that I do….go to hell. Figuratively or literally. I don’t care which one.

    … remember some Christians will support civil rights and will be in solidarity …
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/religions-support-abortion-rights-leaders-are-speaking-rcna27194

    Vastmind
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran

    ^^^^^ Judiasm isn’t Christianity , haha…..I hear you tho. Problem is those others aren’t the churches with the money and power. It’s the huge southern baptists doing this.

    lobster
  • LionduckLionduck Veteran
    edited July 5

    According to certain ORKS on the US Supreme Court, Women are not protected by the Constitution, amendments included.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    @Lionduck said:
    According to certain ORKS on the US Supreme Court, Women are not protected by the Constitution, amendments included.

    No they're not. Have you viewed the video I posted?

    https://mbasic.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=378990994121738&id=341163402640457&_rdr#tempwin

    It's frankly inhumane, and bordering on the same level of utter barbarism perpetrated by the Nazis on Jews in WWII.

    Lionduck
  • LionduckLionduck Veteran

    The ORKS are also setting their sights on the LGBTQ community.

  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran

    @Lionduck said:
    The ORKS are also setting their sights on the LGBTQ community.

    Hmmm
    "First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

    ~Martin Niemoller~

    LionduckVastmindBunks
  • Shoshin1Shoshin1 Veteran

    Noam Chomsky's interesting take on what's happening in the world today...

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/02/kansas-voters-block-effort-to-ban-abortion-in-state-constitutional-amendment-vote-00049442

    The conservative state of Kansas just rejected the first attempt at an amendment banning abortion with a %59 majority. Not only is this in a state that voted Trump twice and has a Republican super majority in the state legislature, they held the vote in the primary rather than the general election. Primaries have lower voter turn out and tend to favor those in power.

    A lot of the commentary I've seen on this thinks that this is a signal for pro choice advocates to go on the offense and pass protections of their own in red states. The general public seems to be behind protections up to a certain amount of time and exceptions for rape, incest, health.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    There's hope for America yet.....

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited August 9

    Good for Kansas.

    @person said “…..the general public seems to be behind protections up to a certain amount of time and exceptions for rape, incest, and health”

    That’s reinforcing the idea that in order for a woman to have a right to her own body, …someone has to violate her first….or her life must be on the line.

    Tell me again which ‘protections’ are on the books concerning a man’s penis? Or his sperm?

    Being a straight woman is wild because you have to date your only natural predator.
    — a wise woman on twitter once said

    federica
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator

    Yeah. Whichever way you look at it, it's still a raw deal. Fucking hell, where are we, 21st century or not?!

  • personperson Don't believe everything you think the liminal space Veteran

    @Vastmind said:
    Good for Kansas.

    @person said “…..the general public seems to be behind protections up to a certain amount of time and exceptions for rape, incest, and health”

    That’s reinforcing the idea that in order for a woman to have a right to her own body, …someone has to violate her first….or her life must be on the line.

    Tell me again which ‘protections’ are on the books concerning a man’s penis? Or his sperm?

    Being a straight woman is wild because you have to date your only natural predator.
    — a wise woman on twitter once said

    I think the general notion is that of fetal viability. I take your point about making laws around this implicitly tells women what they can and can't do with their bodies. But are you arguing for the alternative of abortion up until live birth for any reason? I mean this is a hot button issue and I realize I'm a man stating an opinion here, but in the end I guess I am alright at some level in saying an unborn baby has rights too. And that they may trump the rights of the woman carrying them.

    I guess I would like to know where you or @federica may stand when it comes to limits on abortion? Do you think there should be any?

  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited August 10

    It is up to each woman what her limits are.
    I do not think unborn fetus’ have inherent rights that need to be fought for.

    Not only do you think they do, but those fetus rights might trump mine?? Based on what? What’s your reasoning?

    Mothers have been fighting for what our children/offspring/fetus’ need and don’t need since the beginning of time. We’re very capable of deciding what’s usually best for them and us.I assure you.

    We obviously have very different values concerning this subject. My main point is …it’s not your decision to make for me.Not your judgement call. If it’s not moral/right for you, then don’t do it. Plain and simple. But other people get that same choice you do.

    My other point is Men would feel very differently if the shoe was on the other foot. What if I tried to outlaw masturbation bec
    1. I thought It was morally wrong
    2. I thought/felt That sperm in the sock is potentially a life . I want to protect that life and give it a chance,.

    Most men would tell me to mind my business and it’s his thing to do what he wants. Limits or not.That the moral and social implications are his to willingly deal with.
    You don’t feel that way about yours? All the masturbation threads we’ve had on here over the years and the need to meditate around it? I know legislating it never came up.
    Cmon now. …Rights to your own body and it’s parts is something I think all people should have.

    lobsterJeroen
  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran
    edited August 10

    I think abortion as a choice up to a certain level of development of the fetus is fair. You have to strike a balance between letting women have as much choice as possible, and saying “that’s a human being in there” and you’ve now made your choice.

    What I’m against is letting patriarchal values carry the day here. There’s absolutely no need for the religious right to be given a free ride on this, just because a child is the product of two people, and it usually takes more than one to create a good home. It complicates things, but its not the end of the story.

  • lobsterlobster Veteran

    … And that they may trump the rights of the woman carrying them.

    Maybe women should be able to decide on post delivery abortion? It might just improve some mens behaviour … just an idea … Didn't the Buddha abort his wife and child … or did I go wrong again …

    Here to help :dizzy:

    Vastmind
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited August 10

    For all this shit talking you guys are doing, I hope your brushing up your knowledge about my lady bits and how I cook a baby. Most men know nothing about the anatomy you’re fighting so hard for.

    We have OBGYNs . Do you guys have dick docs? Hahaha….seriously, do you go to a specialist once a year all things having a penis? We do. Please. Until you guys take shit more seriously, you can kiss my ass on trusting you with my health decisions. That’s real talk.

    .if you guys really want to stick with theme….start a thread about the Buddhist views. Many mixed ones. That’ll be a runaway train, hahaha.

    My vote is still…it’s my decision. Just like it’s yours.

    lobster
  • VastmindVastmind Memphis, TN Veteran
    edited August 10

    @Jeroen ..my first problem with your post was when you proposed a strike of some sort, to balance my choice….as much as possible. Then insist, I’ve made my choice.

    I don’t care if it’s up to the last damn minute before due date….there are a lot of things than can and will go wrong. Let that decision be made between her and her Dr.

    If you as a man, want a marriage clause of some sort…or co sleeping- possible accident pregnancy -written something -thing, fine, I guess. Sex contract so both parties can look out for their best interests. that’s up to you guys as an understood thing. Paternity testing isn’t done until after birth tho. Here you go claiming rights to stuff in my body.

    After delivery, most agree it’s legal Murder and a first Precept issue.

  • JeroenJeroen Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter Netherlands Veteran
    edited August 10

    Sorry @vastmind, I was having a bit of a weird morning. Probably came out sounding all kinds of wrong. It’s a difficult issue though, and unlimited abortion, it’s-my-body kind of statement also doesn’t sound fair.

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