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Belief in rebirth necessary to practice 8-fold path?
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Could you explain the larger and deeper perspective it provided you?
Yes, I have wondered about Right View. However most of the sutta references I've seen describe Right View in terms of insight into the Four Noble Truths, basically insight into how suffering arises and ceases. This leads us into the ongoing parallel debate about how DO should be interpreted, which IMO is another thicket of views.;)
P
It is Mundane Right View that talks about rebirth and Deva worlds. Even though it is Right View it is probably not necessary for cultivation. MN 117 and see the sutta Valtiel quoted above. Susima sutta.
Of course the existance of rebirth or no makes a H*ll of a difference to understanding the Path.
Just take Nibbana for instance. If there is not rebirth then the state of death is in many ways equivalant to Nibbana. Also there is the huge difference of (through Nibbana) fleeing an endless round of rebirth and suffering compared to the no-rebirth Nibbana where you "only" escape the suffering of this one life.
For me my view that there is rebirth is therefore a huge motivation booster. Without it I would probably not cultivate.
Cheers
Victor
(My Bold sections).
I think I answered your question as you can se in the same post.
See the greatest error in those views are that there is a self. Prior or after rebirt is irrelevant.
But if you are waiting for my definition of rebirth I guess there are numerous suttas that contain in various way references to rebirth.
My own definition goes something like this: You die and according to your karma and desires (asava) you are reborn again.
I still do not see why that is relevant in this thread.
/Victor
/Victor
But don't ever - EVER - do it again.
(and - small, piccky point, I know..... It's F-eDErica...no 'r', but a second 'e'.... .:D )
I am currenlty smacking my own bottom. I promise I will do it thoroughly.
Double sorry F-eDErica.
/Victor
Yes, I realise that for some individuals and traditions belief in rebirth is a strong motivating factor, and I wouldn't want to argue with that. The question is perhaps more for those of us currently without that belief, in which case the motivation is probably a bit different.:)
P
And in accordance with the precepts?
Not arguing. Just relating my belief. I have friends that do not believe in rebirth and we do not generally argue since we agree it is not relevant for cultivation.
/Victor
Always. Everything I do.
MN 117 mentions it:
[...]
And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.
[...]
"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.
[...]
Cheers, Thomas
At least as I understand it.
Cheers
/Victor
Cheers, Thomas
While it doesn't necessarily mean anything, it's interesting to note that the Chinese version of MN 117 makes no mention of "right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions":
It's entirely possible that this particular passage is a later addition. Perhaps later redactors of the Pali Canon (especially the Abhidhammikas) added this distinction in order to support the Abhidhammic theory of two truths (i.e., conventional and ultimate truth). It's not really all that unlikely considering the fact that this is the only sutta in the entire Canon I'm aware of containing this definition of right view with and without effluents.
Of course, it's equally as possible that the redactors of the Chinese Canon intentionally removed this part, or that it was simply lost in translation.
Yet, surprisingly (to myself) I have found a lot of people who seem not to need this belief to cultivate.
Well that agnosticism is also in accordance with the Buddha according to the Kalama sutta as I think you would agree? Not believing in anything without scrutiny?
But on the last account I do agree. The rejection of rebirth is based on false view and not anything the Buddha supported. In fact the MN 117 (and numerous other suttas) makes it clear that the Buddha did belive in rebirth himself.
Trying to bend the view of karma (and the Dhamma) to make it fit a world without rebirth is pretty tedious.
IMO.:cool:.
/Victor
PS.
Please call me Victor. I just use "Victorious" to p*ss people off...or make them smile.
DS.
Very interesting. Either way. Right View is always Right View.
/Victor
Initial Right View of rebirth is not how you 'want' to believe it, but however your particular school/tradition teaches it to be. Neither view is an obstruction from progress, from cultivation; stream-entry can occur regardless of our views, or even our ignorance, of rebirth.
I hope this helps.
Namaste
Good point. There is an analysis of MN 117 by Bhikkhu Bodhi where he talks about precisely this, and his conclusion is that the Mahacattarisaka Sutta has been modified at a later point to fit with the Abidhamma, as the latter makes a technical distinction between "... with effluents" and "...without effluents". He supposes that this distinction was not originally there and that the Chinese translation renders an earlier version of the same sutta. I have an MP3 dhamma talk that analyses MN117 in this regard, but unfortunately I can't find the web link any longer. If anyone is interested in this MP3 talk, pls. drop me a line.
Cheers, Thomas
P.S.: Thanks to Google, I found the web link: http://abmp3.com/mp3/bhikkhu-bodhi-m0049-mn-117-mahacattarisaka-sutta.html
Often in the suttas Right View is described in terms of insight into the Noble Truths, the arising and cessation of suffering, for example as here in the Magga-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Path:
"And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view."
My practice involves developing insight into how suffering arises and ceases in the here and now, looking at desires and their consequences.
P
I don't view dharma as a set of beliefs to be taken on, I see it as a path of discovery, seeing things as they really are. There are different ways of looking at it, I guess.
P
Yes, for a "full & effective practice".
For me "seeing things as they really are" is also a form of belief. The strongest belief is what I think Buddhism calls direkt knowleadge.
That is something that you have validated through your own faculties as true beyond any doubt.
As long as there is a Subject percieving the world, which is to my understanding the case as long as you have not reached the end of the path, then there can only be varying forms of belief.
For instance rebirth is for me validated beyond any doubt and as sure as that the sun rises in the morning.
I know people who through their own cultivation have seen Devas as clear as LED-TV.:).
Still it is only belief. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
But seriously is that not what Buddhism is all about?
/Victor
It is to see the world, rather than to conceive the world.
Namaste
Are you implying there is something beyond the illusion? What is the natural flow of reality?
Yes I was talking about during the path to that Aryan view. If everybody already constanlty held that view then Buddhism would be nullified? Ne?
Ayubovan
/Victor
Namaste
I think we are saying the same thing arent we?
/Victor
Namaste
The "other reality" is the illusion I am talking about.
Cheers
/Victor
No. It is not necessary in the least. It has never been mentioned in the 8 fold path or the 4 noble truths. But you can believe it if it makes you happy.
I'm glad you realize there is a difference between what people believe in and what the Buddha taught
I think that's a good way of saying it. Seeing things as they really are, without all the views, beliefs, preconceptions, assumptions, desires etc.
P
Unfortunately these two things often seem to get confused.
P
Not if you carefully read the suttas with an open mind
I agree - but this is actually quite difficult to do.:)
P
Correct me if I am wrong but is not this the preroggitive of an Aryan Puggala.
Are not the rest of us (poor sods) trapped in the illusion of the five aggregates?
Believing that one can see the reality behind the illusion under those conditions is an illusion in itself no?
Is that not why it is mostly impossible to read the suttas with an unbiased mind?
/Victor
And could you say why?
P
That would be like thinking you're enlightened when you're not.
P
10 points out of 10. Thank God!
Cheerio
/Victor
Faith or confidence in the Buddha is the door to power & strength in practice. If one rejects the Dharma of literal rebirth which Buddha taught, then how much confidence can one have in whatever "Dharma" practice one uses?
If one is agnostic, indifferent or uncertain about the truth of rebirth, then why are you here on earth; how were you born? If this your first and last birth, why should karma apply at all? If you ignore gaining a reasonable view of how & why one is born, then stupidity, cowardice or laziness rules. And these are not a firm support for good practice.
The short answer is that our ego is fed by ignorance & craving, so ignorance of rebirth, being supported by craving to ignore the Dharma taught by Buddha, is folly.
The short answer is that your ego is fed by ignorance and craving, ignorance of the Buddha's supramundane teachings of dukkha, supported by craving to ignore that rebirth and kamma are no where to be found in D.O. (i.e. The Dhamma).
How should one go about not to be agnostic, indifferent or uncertain about the truth of rebirth?
How can I validate Rebirth for myself?
/Victor
Why not? I am pretty sure He is a Buddhist!!;)
/Victor
Understand how rebirth is explained, both ways, and however you initially 'believe' in it will depend upon the conditions of your own life. There's no way for anyone to convince you one way or the other. Yet you can be easily confused by those who tell you that you must believe it in a way which you can not believe it (each mind has its own receptivity), and thus flounder around a lot before getting anywhere.
Anyone who says you must believe one way or another is misguided. Different schools/traditions hold varying views, and so to state definitively that one is correct is to say that those other schools/traditions are wrong, and we as Buddhist don't do that, do we?
Not only do rebirth threads never end in everyone agreeing, but they are an exercise in futility and a battle of will that causes much suffering and confusion. These threads have been common on this forum and none are helpful. They should be somehow restricted in the same way that evangelizing has been, IMHO.
The Right View of Rebirth is whatever your school/tradition (teacher) says it is, for that is the transmission of that school/tradition. It is not what you want to believe; rather if you want to believe one way you should choose a school/tradition that has the same view.
I'm going to get out of this thread, which is futile.
Namaste
Why bother with that now? If you have faith or confidence in 90% of the Dharma now, just open your heart a little more and include rebirth.
Certainty of truth or validation comes after much practice & many lives - not before.