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Belief in rebirth necessary to practice 8-fold path?
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Physical birth is not the cause of suffering. What is the cause of suffering Will? Isn't it self clinging?
[FONT="]Pubbenivasa[/FONT][FONT="] means previous dwellings[/FONT] not necessarily past lives. The super mundane way to practice when confronted by past dwellings is this:
The online Pali dictionary says:
Supporting plainly and simply the MN 36 bodhi tree wisdom gained by Buddha.
The Buddha eliminated all mental suffering while still being alive. Physical birth is never the problem. In spite of being born and being alive, by eliminating mental defilement you can free yourself from suffering in this lifetime.
Nivāsa [fr. nivasati2] stopping, dwelling, resting-- place, abode; living, sheltering
It does not necessarily have to be of a past life. Any past memory/past dwelling should be seen as not-self, merely as recollections of the five aggregates, not to be taken as me or my self. That's the message the sutta is giving, not this "enlightening rebirth wisdom" you seem to imply.
The first knowledge is the knowledge how self view arises.. Here's an example for the bold passage above:
An extremely angry man goes out and kills someone out of sheer ego possessiveness and once the born ego of the angry killer (he did me wrong so I should kill him) is dead he is born again (mental birth) as "guilty man who repents his own action". These are both two mental births one caused by the actions in the previous mental birth. The mental suffering he goes through now is due to his own misconduct aka his bad kamma from the previous mental birth. Thus beings get born (arising of the self view) again and again mentally from moment to moment in a single lifetime.
Seeing this here and now, with this knowledge, the Buddha saw the cause of all Dukkha which is mental clinging to self. Thus mental clinging is the cause of dukkha in the DO. Not physical birth.
The kind of knowledge you describe is obviously not what is meant here. It is apparent when you go through the Susima sutta that such realizations are not related to enlightenment
Susima sutta where Susima the wanderer asked these questions from the enlightened disciples of the Buddha
It alone did not and the sutta does not say so.
Only during the Third knowledge was there a transforming of the ascetic Prince into a Buddha.
You might ask yourself why Gautama turned his mind first to the question of his past lifetimes and secondly to the link between karma and rebirth.
Will, I was talking about the first wisdom as that is related to the whole rebirth speculation. As I already explained, it refers to a mental phenomena not physical birth or rebirth.
But since you insist that it is not and since you say that the Buddha "plainly and simply" saw and realized how beings pass away from one life and re-arise in another life depending on their kamma, then could you please show me where he has explained such a scenario. How and what is reborn? Who is receiving karmic ramifications? If physical birth is dukkha how did he eliminate it while still being alive? Surely the Buddha could have explained those things having realized it first hand under the bo-tree.
Actually Deshy, the MN 36 quote you used was from the Second knowledge, not the first.
I have rejected your explanation of mental rebirth based on the clear reading of MN 36 and many other places where Buddha taught physical rebirth. If you will not accept that fact, then I assume your questions above are rhetorical - which, of course, need no reply. If your questions are sincere, I suggest you study more and check with your guru.
Did the Buddha live in suffering?
Yes, but to throw the word "birther" in there and then come to the conclusion that that then must be the cause of suffering, seems rather a stretch. Indeed, the Buddha surely must have known what he taught in his First Truth:
Now what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming... And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.
Honestly not sure what your point is here. Of course there is physical birth, and of course there cannot be self-clinging without physical birth. Could you please state the conclusion you're drawing from this? It seems you're suggesting that birth, then, inherently leads to self-clinging. The latter half of that sentence reads as "check-and-mate :coffee:" and yet I'm clearly missing something here.
The Pali Text Society's online dictionary states:
Note that words in brackets are inferences made by the translators. Deshy provided a link in which the suttas state what is taking place when one remembers such things, whether from this life or seemingly a past life (you'll note, that this definition can indeed extend to "past lives").
I suggest you take your own advice and read the entirety of the Susima Sutta, in which all Three Knowledges are denied as having any relevance whatsover to Nibbana.
www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra18.html
That's if one accepts that Mahayana sutras were actually spoken by the historical Buddha of course.
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I hope you will address my previous post.
So where does this go....
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I think he didn't speak them, and they are relevant. That's beautiful no?
My questions still apply.
1) How did he end suffering while still being alive if physical birth is the cause of suffering?
2) Are enlightened beings born again after death? :crazy: If not why?
As for the other questions, you have come up with this sutta.
Buddha did not teach about an "alaya consciousness" in any of the original pali suttas. Consciousness is arising based on physical sense bases and that fact is stated over and over again in so many suttas.
So this is your explanation to what is reborn and how it is reborn and who receives karmmic ramifications besides the fact that you are just believing rebirth because there are some suttas out there where he has spoken of rebirth for morality. I'm not surprised.
The sutra posted above is just one explanation Buddha gave. There are other Dharmic explanations and can be found and posted by anyone, with a little effort.
I'm not surprised
It would be wise to note that the posts of people you refer to as "carpers" are also for all to read and hopefully contemplate.
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Others have a different view and thats that.:D
Well said, Richard. _/|\_
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Good advice. Plus I will be interested to know your answers for the question you have been asked Will
No. Only it won't be the Buddha's Dhamma. At least don't present some unverifiable fantasy story as Dhamma ...
Ok I'm signing off for the day before a can o worms get opened
only kidding. Look at it this way, If the Historical Buddha was the only Enlightened being and everyone who came after was just a schlep up until this day, then gilding his words and worshipping his alleged tooth would make sense I guess. But to my mind he cut a path that others followed, others who practiced well. Others who were not mere mimics but living people in different places and times. There is creativity in life. There is wisdom in both Theravada and Mahayana, to denigrate either is just plain stupid, reeeeally stupid. El Stupido. Not good.
But thats just one turkey's view.
all in fun eh...
so.. different strokes
And then reject - hopefully.
Whatever Will. Some prefer to keep an open mind free from speculation and superstitions.
Be well and at ease.
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Enough merit to benefit us and provide a foundation, can only be accrued over many lifetimes. Buddha did gather much merit and advised us to do the same. If one does not think we have more than this one lifetime, there will be little motive to work for merit. And merit gained in this one lifetime will not be enough.
This is from the study guide on Merit from Access to Insight:
If there is only one life, then your logic doesn't follow, as clearly the Buddha would have realized Nibbana in one life as well.
Is merit the only motivation for practice?
No need to "assume". I will tell you that I see a very stiff mind, like unworked leather. Thus I will not respond to your questions.
The late Bodhisattva Hsuan Hua, my Master.
Oh how disappointing. Will has officially and conveniently refused to explain Dhamma
Probably because in him ....
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I have already given you the Dharma as best I know it. You rejected it and continue to quibble.
Fare thee well
Fare thee well.
I do not see any explanation from you for the specific questions you were asked except repeated claims that rebirth exists and why it is important to believe it. When confronted with specific quetsions you have withdrawn without giving any answers relevant to the questions.
Which I didn't. I understand each following has its purpose. Teaching of rebirth has its purpose. Following God also has its purpose
But I refuse to accept that "unverifiable faith and believes" are a part of the super mundane practice.
Attachment to any strong belief whether it is in rebirth, no rebirth or neither belief nor disbelief in rebirth is a hinderance to reach the goal.
That is why your question is irrelevant.
Would you not agree?
...Ok mam, sorry mam.
Strongly attached to this belief are you?;).
And how does one suffer without being born?
Why is that unlikely?
And how does somebody discern that a fact is a fact in Buddhas teaching?
Are you suggesting that the Buddha fooled people? He taught a practise he did not believe himself? To lure them inte behaving properly? Is that not a bit devious even?
I know for a fact that most people argueing againts literal rebirth likes to translate the word Jati in Pali as Birth of the self rather than its normal translation which is Birth.
Could you then please show me how it is visible here and now that Jati should be translated as Birth of the self? And how that is a fact you use to cultivate the supermundane path?
Or is it maybe rather a strong belief on your part?
And maybe there is a rather big possibility that the Buddha did teach literal rebirth since it is mentioned in pretty many suttas?
:cool:
/Victor
He believed in its potential to encourage moral behaviour and inspire people. We've been through this before. Clw_uk posted ages ago on the forum:
No, we translate it simply as "birth" as it is written. A natural tendency is to assume this refers to our physical birth. But one must use common sense and explore the arising of dukkha themselves, and not assume either way, in order to understand its meaning.
You are speaking of it within the context of DO which is the highest teaching in the Dhamma. It is meant to illustrate the arising of suffering. Often, the last Nidana is left out and it is shown to end with "death." In reality, it states: "birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
Does dukkha only arise with physical death?
But, we have referenced numerous suttas in support of all this. I don't think it gets much clearer than this: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html
I am not denying he spoke of rebirth. Even if he spoke of it as literal truth, that is as irrelevant as if he had stated "there is gravity." The question of the Thread, is whether or not it's necessary to believe in it. In my opinion it doesn't really matter either way. As the suttas state repeatedly, one is "released simply through discernment," and "it is enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.'
Again, I hope Will will now answer our questions, but I somehow doubt it.
Welcome to the forum.
This Thread is not about proving or disproving rebirth through scriptural analysis, logic, or personal experiential insight. It's merely about whether or not belief in it is -essential- to the path to realizing Nibbana, to the ending of suffering.
Very true. That also applies to our views and beliefs.
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