Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Belief in rebirth necessary to practice 8-fold path?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Name one existing Buddhist school or lineage more than 100 years old that denies or denigrates literal rebirth.
Since there is none, it is patent that denial or ignoring of literal rebirth is strictly a egotistic hangup of modern times - the era of the Giant Me.
I am totally confident about the existance of rebirth. I have no problem with rebirth. But you are asking a lot of people who have no means to validate Rebirth and still have Trust in the Dhamma to get the H*ll out of Dodge because they express their true understanding of rebirth.
Namely that they have no recollection of it and no direct insight of it. Is that fair?
/Victor
Where did I write anything about "getting out of Dodge"?
The OP was whether one's practice would be "effective" without faith or understanding of literal rebirth and I said no and then gave some reasons.
What people choose to practice and how is up to them. I am just advocating common sense - to follow what 2500 years of tradition practiced and believed - and not to ignore what Buddha taught & knew to be true.
I have no direct recollection of Buddha nor any of the ancient sages - should I just stay with a Path of my own invention or perhaps Mormonism or Scientology?
Have you read Opus the comic?
He is a penguin living in his tribe on the south pole. When the american F18 planes are on manouver all two million penguins of his tribe watch.
When the air plane flies from left to right two million heads turn from left to right.
When the air plane flies from right to left two million heads turn fron right to left.
And when the ariplane flies from the front to back two million penguins fall on their arses.
Moral of the story? Even if two million penguins do the wrong thing it is still the wrong thing to do.
Do you have another (better) argument?:)
/Victor
Here I think!?
"If one is agnostic, indifferent or uncertain about the truth of rebirth, the why are you here?"
Maybe I am wrong.
Peace Will. I was just wondering about your argument. I will have to think on this.
/Victor
Yes you are wrong, but I should have clarified. "Why are you in the body, why were your born" NOT "why dare post here." I will go back and edit.
Do you have direct insight of rebirth Victor?
It's a shame these debates always get so polarised. I don't reject rebirth, and I don't argue that the Buddha didn't teach it. It's just that I don't currently have an active belief in rebirth. Note the use of "currently".
It sounds like for you that belief in rebirth is an important motivational factor. That's fine, but please be aware that not everyone approaches dharma in the same way. Some tolerance would be appreciated.
P
What do you mean by direct insight Deshy?
/Victor
I don't know. You said
and then you said
So I figured the fact that you are so sure of rebirth is because you must have had "recollection of it and direct insight" of it.
I see you want to know whether I have had direct insight according to my own definition of direct insight?
Then my answer would be yes I have had partly verifiable direct insight, unverifiable indirect insight and verifiable semidirect insight.
All from my own point of view considering what is verifiable and not.
/Victor
P
Pretty convincing is it? Would you care to share some of these partly verifiable, semi direct, direct and indirect (whatever) insights for the rest of us please?
Nope, not in a million lifes.
Whats up Deshy. You got a goldfish memory between threads?
I remember you (and others) asking me the same question a couple of times in The Other Rebirth Thread. You know the one I mean right?
And I am pretty sure I answered no each time and explained why.
Lets not go into that all over again ok? It leads nowhere and is not relavant to this thread.
/Victor
If you're going to make statements of this nature, there is no reason whatsoever to then get all coy.
Either discuss it or don't.
Don't start making claims of whatever nature, then dangle the "Ah but well it's all so mysterious" in front of everyone.
In simple basic terms - either put it up - or shut it up.
Fair enough.
I do believe in rebirth but can not think of any reason why it should be compulsory to belive in rebirth to cultivate.
End of story. That is all that is relevant for this thread.
/Victor
Either belief, whether literal or metaphorical, can lead to stream-entry; even ignorance of rebirth. If after stream-entry you've gained insights that change your former belief, you can deal with it then. It's not necessary to be 'right' about rebirth in the beginning; this is why all schools of Buddhism (even the new ones) are still 'correct' in their teachings.
This is why we are allowed to view it either way.
Namaste
And they will continue to ask if you continue to bring up claims that "I am absolutely convinced of rebirth because I have personal experience/insight/semi direct insight/partially semi indirect unverifiable insight etc. of rebirth which other people do not have which is why they are not so convinced of rebirth". If you say so then the obvious next question is "what are those insights?"
...because you do not remember the answer from the last thread from two weeks ago or something...? Would you want me to PM a link?
If you are having resentful feelings towards me Deshy for some reason then why do you not PM me and we can sort it out instead of polluting this thread further.
/Victor
EDIT:
PS
In the above I think my anger with your question dictated my writing.
I am truly sorry if I have offended you in any way now or before Deshy.
My experiences are too personal for public viewing and they would in any case not convince anybody else but me. So there is no gain for anybody and only loss of integrity for me in disclosing my experiences.
I apologize again.
/Victor
DS.
gassho.
I'll repeat, IF you continue to claim certain things based on your personal insights again and again then there is a chance that you will be asked to state them over and over again.
Personal experiences can be delusive, memories can be scattered, misleading and depending on the circumstance people can get numerous perceptions about incidences. These stories are hardly valid evidence for the existence of rebirth. If you yourself feel that they are not convincing to anyone else (I am not surprised) then maybe you should refrain from referring to them in the forums? Because, if you do, then it is inevitable that someone down the line will request you to reveal your realizations.
:crazy:
I have no resentful feeling towards you and you are most welcome to PM me anytime you want
Alright fisticuffs it is then...at dawn.
Muahahaha aha aha...:crazy:.
/Victorious
Dude, like, sarcasm and joking is so totally inappropriate on a Buddhism forum. :crazy:
This is a technique of manipulation known as marginalization. It's certainly a concern worth bothering about.
This is a non sequitur.
This is belittlement without any established basis.
I am learning from the great Masters of that dicipline. :cool:.
Precarious
Victorious
Who said there is a fight? Of course there is no fight. You do not need to watch your back on account of little me.
:ninja:
Dubious
Victorious
Thanks for the reassurance.
That really doesn't make any sense. Constantly reaffirming belief in oneself being reborn is surely attaching to 'me'.., rather than just letting it go and focusing on the present -which is actually all there is right now!
.
Namaste
Can someone reach an ego-less state like Nibbana while still harboring a strong belief in life after death?
And so to state one must believe in rebirth one way or the other is Wrong Speech; it is divisive, not necessary, and could drive those away who can not view it in the way they are told they must (to each self its own).
Namaste
After stream-entry, there is a paradigm shift in thinking that gives greater clarity and allows one, though still possessed of a 'self', to acknowledge reality's selfless nature internally. Whatever that 'selfless nature' beholds for the stream-winner is not necessary or helpful to be taught on the mundane level, because as I've said.....some can not view rebirth initially in one or the other way.
If one were to say rebirth must be viewed metaphorically, all of those who have a self-view that must include an afterlife will not come to Buddhism. If one were to say rebirth must be viewed literally, all of those who have a self-view that must not include an afterlife will not come to Buddhism.
Since either view can lead to stream-entry, and from stream-entry the 'correct' reality can be more clearly seen, it is of no benefit.....and quite divisive and harmful to the chances of many to become Buddhists to seek liberation.....to say definitively that rebirth must be viewed in one way and not the other.
Any who make this distinction, who say it must be viewed in one way and not the other, are doing much harm while thinking they are speaking rightly or that they are somehow helping people. They're not, and that's what is sad about all of this.
Namaste
Could you please explain how that question is relevant?
And explain in what way it differs from the following question?
Can someone reach an ego-less state like Nibbana while still harboring a strong belief in no life after death?
/Victor
Noone said you should believe there is "no life" after death. You seem to think that everyone who doesn't believe in rebirth believe that there is no rebirth. There are some who do not blindly believe in anything at all
It's like saying you need to believe in ice-cream to skate. Or gravity. :rolleyes: Let them argue if they are interested.
Right view is not about "believing" anything. Right view is following the teachings of the Buddha without putting your own spin on things so that they are more agreeable to your way of thinking, i.e. not likely to cause you to change. Change is what Buddhism is all about. If you're not changing, you're not practicing.
Palzang
Well said... this line gave me the goosebumps!
With Thanks,
Matt
Palzang
Do you believe somebody holding strong belief in something (anything at all) can reach enlightenment?
That is neither my belief nor implication.
Really would that include you? Would you say you do not believe blindly in anything at all?
/Victor
With the right mind everything is cultivation though...;)
/Victor
!
/Victor
Strong belief in rebirth normally comes from a desire for continued existence not necessarily insights/realizations partial or semi direct. Dhamma is not "beliefs". It's verifiable facts. How can you fully relinquish while still holding on to rebirth fantasies that "I will be born again in so and so realms"? Strong belief in continued existence entertains self-clinging for the most part.
This is not about me. This is about the right cultivation for Nibbana. But since you asked, and as you have already been told, I neither believe nor disbelieve rebirth. I don't care if life continues or not simply because being born is not the cause of my suffering. The cause of suffering is in this moment thus Nibbana is here an now.
It is highly unlikely that the Buddha taught metaphysical rebirth as a fact. He only taught moral rebirth to those who already believed in it and they were normally not interested in enlightenment but just where they would be born in the next life. Thus it was favorable to direct their faith into moral conduct rather than teach them not-self. Rebirth teachings fall under mundne Dhamma. It has very little to do with Nibbana.
The Buddha had advised his disciples not to blindly believe in anything. As Palzang rightly said, "belief" has no place in super mundane cultivation if that is what you are interested in
Visible here and now
As for his not teaching "metaphysical" rebirth (whatever that is) he did teach & know the truth of physical rebirth - as MN 36 says: