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Belief in rebirth necessary to practice 8-fold path?
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It seems like the most obvious hypothesis to me based on the evidence I have seen. I don't know with 100% certainty (if I did, then it wouldn't be a belief) but I am at least 99% covinced that rebirth is true.
Well, maybe it's true
So then you do agree that insight into something does not need to be scientifically verifiable to be verifiable to an individual?
/Victor
I can see where this is going ...
The Buddha gave clear guidance as to how one should practice in order to verify nibbana here and now. You follow the instructions and verify it to yourself. You have been given the road map.
Now, let's take an example like rebirth. Is rebirth an insight as some people believe will "happen" when you attain nibbana? Well according to the susima sutta, it's probably not.
Do you have clear instructions to give to people so that we can follow those instructions and see its truth (truth of rebirth) for ourselves? Do these so called "rebirth insights" normally take the form of just personal experiences that you probably cannot even explain to yourself properly? Do you agree that there is a difference between Buddhist insights and personal memories?
I would say it is definitly (probability 1) not necessary to have insight into past lives to attain Nibbana according to the Susima sutta. And/But It says nothing about probability of such experiences during the path.
Almost. I had when I followed them but that was some years ago. But I could probably brush them up.
No. You forget those rebirth insights that are historically verifiable.
No because there is none. A Buddhist insight becomes a personal memory directly after its fruition. Even the first Aryan insights work that way.IMU.
/Victor
Yes. It doesn't. I haven't seen anywhere in the suttas that such insights are possible during the path. But yea, some folks say they are possible
When you manage to brush them up please send me the instructions.
historically verifiable rebirth insights? Where? Please send me the references.
Not quite. Insight is a truth which is verifiable by following a set of instructions. Personal memories of rebirth cannot be verified by following such instructions. They happen to some people in terms of vague memories in most cases. Similar to "in the past I was such and such". Verifiable truth takes the form of "if you do this you can see this". Can you say the same for rebirth memories? Probably not and that is why it is not verifiable here and now.
Not everybody knows all the suttas and not everything is written down. That is why it is important to have a good teacher.
What on earth for?
If you are really interested please look it up yourself. There are probably books about it. I have only had such experiences narrated to me in real life by people I know.
Personal memories of rebirth can be experienced and reexperienced following a set of instructions. The memories are not more vauge than memories of buddhist insights.
No you are wrong there. As I said memories of rebirth can be experienced and reexperienced following a set of instructions.
/Victor
To verify it to myself. Couldn't you have guessed
So what are those instructions which I can follow and verify it here and now?
Thread title.
Are we still on topic here?
If you two would like to take this to-and-fro discussion onto PMs, we can either get back to topic, or call it a day.
Too many threads wander off into an "I'm right you're wrong" dialogue between 2 posters, it gets tedious monitoring.
For now, I'm closing the thread.
I'm willing to re-open it, if it makes sense.....
if either of you can give me good reason to re-open it in order to DEBATE THE ORIGINAL QUESTION - Let me know.