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Belief in rebirth necessary to practice 8-fold path?
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Neither belief nor disbelief is a belief? Non-believing is a belief? Is there something in nothingness? Is MJ really dead? :eek::eek:
No. I wouldn't agree. Not believing in speculation is not a hindrance to your practice.
No. I wouldn't agree. I am open for facts from either side. Not accepting either belief as "I am absolutely and undoubtedly sure of this and that" is not strong belief or strong attachment. It’s just not accepting speculation.
Noone said you suffer without being physically born (Whatever that means). Two people had sex and somehow you are here now. What is the cause of your suffering? Sex between humans? Physical birth? Your existence? If you think this way then you are not following Buddhism.
The "origin" of suffering is not life. The origin of suffering is "clinging".
Physical birth -> Clinging -> Suffering
Physical birth -> Non-Clinging -> Nibbana
It's true that clinging doesn't take place without being born. Similarly, suffering doesn’t take place without clinging. The Buddha attained Nibbana while still being alive through relinquishment.
This has been discussed before and you have been answered accordingly here.
I cannot show you. You have to see. I can show you the references which many others and I did here. I am sure you will look there if you are as interested as you sound. In case you couldn't find it, let me know.
How can it be a "belief" victor when it is verifiable? Core Buddhist Dhamma has nothing to do with beliefs
What do you think made the Buddha's Dhamma so unique from the other Dhammas that were around his days. There are implications that there were already Brahmins with psychic powers those days. There are implications that Brahmins were teaching rebirth already at that time.
Maybe
Well, I guess I have said all I have to say. You have the references. Continuing will be just going round in circles.
Vic is right, here, I think. Your position seems to have hardened somewhat. Its epistemological rigor is no compensation for that.
One remarkable trait of it was the complete rejection of cant.
If this is the case then I have difficulties understanding what is being argued, and why there is an argument at all.
Facts? There is a lot of evidence suggestive of reincarnation. But it isn't a hard science. If one takes a sceptical position, then no amount of circumstantial evidence will suffice.
Cheers, Thomas
Suggestive perhaps, but not conclusive.
To ask the OP question in a different way, would you cease Buddhist practice if it were proved that rebirth didn't occur and we only had this one lifetime?
P
PS... Ok I got it :rolleyes:
There is no argument TS. I don't see any solid evidence to prove reincarnation. Perhaps you can explain the scientific approach to me please?
:bowdown:
For one thing, by encouraging us to accrue merit, as post 178 said.
Causality that is conducive to the eradication of negative habitual patterns etc.
The notion of "merit" doesnt necessarily require one to accept rebirth.
If you practice Vajrayana and think full buddhahood can be realized in one lifetime - then maybe one can ignore the value of rebirth. Even then, you would have to be confident that your previous merit from other lifetimes, when added to your Vajrayana merit, would be enough.
Otherwise, practicing merit or good karma in order to "establish the causes and conditions for realization" is pointless if you do not believe in many future births.
For definitions see the Buddhist Pali dictionary - punna and the three terms following: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_p.htm
Here is Thanissaro Bhikkhu giving an intro to the value of Merit-making:
I never advocated ignoring the value of rebirth, not that I think rebirth in and of itself is of any value whatsoever. Rebirth sucks (and by that I mean uncontrolled transmigration, not the teachings on rebirth).
I certainly think that liberation, becoming an arhat, and buddhahood are all accessible in this lifetime, depending on the dispositions and paths of students.
I think you go too far by saying that merit is "pointless" unless you "believe" in many rebirths. Personally, I think the Buddhist teachings on rebirth are completely rational and relevant. I do not however think that one must "believe" in rebirth in order for merit to be applicable to a practitioners life and experience.
I wrote "practicing merit or good karma". What is the motive to do so if one thinks this lifetime is the end? The question is not will merit-making "work" now, but how much energy would one put into it and with what motive, if this lifetime is the only one?
Its the same old, "if there is no rebirth, then why not do whatever you want?" argument. Sorry, but I'm not buying it. I do not think that this life is the only one, I actually think thats an illogical viewpoint that is extremely limited and limiting.
I think people can come up with plenty of reasons why practicing virtue and accumulating merit would be relevant to their practice right now, whether or not they accept rebirth.
Well said Shenpen.
.
I like your avatar.
Why do you "accumulate" merit?
Is it the same as karma then?
Does merit/karma only come to fruition in the next life? Do we have no control over this life? How do you know that you haven't accrued enough merit in your past lives and it's in this one that you can realize nibbana?
I think merit/karma ripen in this life and any potential future lives, from what I have been taught its not limited to either. Therefore, yes, we do have control over the future conditions of this life.
I'm not sure how one could tell how much merit one has accumulated, for me personally I feel very fortunate to have a very fortunate conditions of birth that involves being positively inclined toward the dharma etc. In a lot of traditional interpretations this would me that there is significant merit/positive karma ripening from the past.
The idea of merit or positive karma being imprinted upon the alayavijnana or vayu might be more effective.
So the good merits get stored in alayanijnana or vayu? Vayu is the "wind element" right? How can merit be stored in the winds? hehe
and you will experience more joy, more love, more liberation, more enjoyment out of life. It affect your brain, the way you think, the way you see the world etc...
The body-mind-prana connection is why physical yoga's etc. are applied in some traditions.
Pick your battles. *shrugs*
I'm speaking to Will from his own perspective.
No I was just leaving. I have already been accused of un-Buddhist rigor...
uh oh, not unbuddhist rigor.
ha!
Lmao.
Deshy, you handed that one right to him.
First, what Dharma teaching leads you to think any merit-making will come to fruition in this lifetime? What sorts of merit will do that?
Secondly, please give three reasons to make merit if one does not believe in rebirth.
Does merit-karma only accumulate when one is acting with the intent to accumulate it? If I do good deeds for the sake of helping someone, rather than to accumulate merit for future rebirths, would the merit not still accumulate?
First:
If the two accumulations of merit and wisdom had no potential for ripening in this lifetime then no lifetime would be sufficient for realization and Buddhahood. The current lifetime, no matter which lifetime that was would become irrelevant to the ripening of the two accumulations and would therefore be a redundant birth that facilitated no awakening whatsoever. If this were the case all enlightened beings would be born as enlightened beings. The accumulations must ripen in a given lifetime in order for Buddhahood to be actualized. So to answer your question on which dharma teachings say the accumulations come to fruition in a lifetime i would have to say this: all of them. If that were not the case then there would never be a lifetime in which the two accumulations ripened.
By your reasoning Buddhahood becomes impossible because the opportunity for the fruition of practice is only available outside of the context of a current rebirth. That is unless you think all enlightened beings enter their final lifetime fully awakened.
Second:
1. A genuine aspiration to serve the three jewels.
2. A genuine aspiration to benefit others.
3. Committing any virtuous act without the regard for future lifetimes.
The list could go on to be outrageously large.
Virtually every Tibetan commentary on the teachings on merit and rebirth assert that the lowest view is the one that performs virtuous deed with the intention of a favorable rebirth (or for material gain in this life). The highest being altruism alone.
This is one of the major reasons why compassion and bodhicitta are so heavily taught in TB. By being altruistically meritorious we are in a sense utilizing the idea of merit to remove the obstacles to Buddhahood by doing that which is most kind to other beings. The principle is ironically "selfish". Basically, by always working for the benefit of others with no expectation of anything back the practitioner is doing him/her self the greatest kindness.
Talk about little karma seeds making big vipaka trees! I was not clear & thus you did not understand the first question.
"What Dharma teaching leads you to think any merit-making done in this lifetime will come to fruition of buddhahood or arhatship in this lifetime? What sorts of merit will do that?"
You were getting to where I was coming from with "the opportunity for the fruition of practice is only available outside of the context of a current rebirth." Exactly; 99% of cultivators will not become bodhisattvas, arhats or buddhas in their present lifetime. So merit-making is for the future bodhi. But if rebirth is not believed in - there is no future.
Yes, one can see good results in this life from properly motivated good karma aimed at the proper field. See Deshung Rinpoche's (or Je Rinpoche's) wonderful teachings.
But those good results are can be attained without Buddhism. Just be kind & harmless - as HHDL says and you will feel better and be a pleasant companion to all beings.
As for your three reasons - #s 2 & 3 are fine - but again, no Dharma practice is required for them. Number 1 does not make sense. Taking refuge requires full faith and confidence in Buddha & his teachings. If rebirth is rejected or ignored, then I do not see such faith; thus no real refuge.
Did he Buddha state that every being will realize Nibbana?
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Exactly; 99% of cultivators will not become bodhisattvas, arhats or buddhas in their present lifetime</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Hey, hold on. Every life is your present life. That means 99% never become stuff. Enlightenement deferred forever.
We all try to follow our best lights, so Fare Thee Well all. I will take a break for a spell.
You are grossly misunderstanding and misrepresenting both Tsongkhapa and Geshe Sopa with this statement.
Really, how so? Here is Je Rinpoche, in translation:
Wow. I'm scratchin my head here Will. The passage you posted very clearly and explicitly proves my point and pulls the rug out from under your argument.
Thank for saving me the trouble of taking the book off my own shelf.
Let us refresh my confusion.
My point was that belief in rebirth is essential to gaining merit for buddhahood in future rebirth. Your point was that faith in rebirth is not important for gaining such merit. Right so far?