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This is a chapter I've been referring to - even thought we've only been covering the first four.
TNH does an excellent job of detailing that "everything is NOT suffering".
He goes into historical areas concerning how, even only a hundred years after Buddha's passing, that people were coming up with interpretations that EVERYTHING is suffering and one can only gain enlightenment by chanting some mantra, to this effect, over and over and over and over and over...
It's like they couldn't see the forest for the trees.
By Buddha saying that there is suffering in life - mis-guided people have (and probably caused others) to possibly waste their lives away on a simple mantra - while missing all the beauty and joy there is in the world.
I sometimes wonder about that - how many monks or nuns sat in a room their entire life - repeating a mantra - until their life was over - and what did that life amount to?
There is joy when suffering is absent. It may be these steps towards removing suffering and attachment in our lives that brings even greater joy as we progress further along the path.
I sometimes can't figure out why "I" have to journey on the Path while Buddha managed to do it in an evening...pisses me off.
I think this chapter could be summed up as If you live - you are going to suffer. Understand that. But, if you live, you can also experience all the love, joy, happiness, wonder and beauty that is in the world too.
Elohim or Simon could probably add some information here regarding the Turning of the Wheel, The Dharma Seals and various thoughts and interpretations.
Chapter 6
Learning the art of stopping.
I've had people ask my why meditation is so big in Buddhism. What's it all for? What do you meditate on?
This chapter does a good job of educating people on what meditation can be. There are many forms of meditation - but, as TNH says, just stopping - becoming calm - becoming aware of what is happening right now - and relaxing or resting.
As other people have stated here, we all have the Monkey mind. It chatters all around us, yanking our thoughts here and there - which if unchecked - becomes a way of life for us.
Meditation is a practice that allows us to reign in the monkey mind. Meditation is a practice that allows us to learn to perceive the here and now. Meditation is a practice. You're practicing stopping, relaxing, being calm, resting. This is a practice just like throwing a ball.
At first - all of us had difficulty throwing a ball. Very awkward and weak. But, with practice, this activity becomes more and more proficient, skilfull, powerful and accurate. Without very much practice - one even finds that they are throwing a ball with great strength and accuracy - even while thinking about something else or talking to someone else. The practice has engrained itself into us.
Practicing meditation is the same thing. By practicing meditation - you are developing the strength, power and accuracy of your meditation. Soon, you can have various life situations thrown in your face - but you don't react weakly, poorly, or inaccurately. Your practice has helped bring your mind into focus - into dealing with the "here and now". You probably won't be ao apt to lash out in anger or hurt or reciprocate violence for violence.
Your practice will come into play.
At least some of the thoughts I got out of these two wonderful chapters.
I think I might make it a point to re-read these chapters multiple times.
Buddhafoot,
I've read the chapters but worked last night and slept very little today so look for a message from me tomorrow. I haven't forgotten about this buddy!
Buddhafoot,
I've read the chapters but worked last night and slept very little today so look for a message from me tomorrow. I haven't forgotten about this buddy!
No worries.
I just thought maybe you were refraining and making the rest of us tow the line for a change.
I'll look for something deep, thoughtful and profound regarding Buddhism from you - or something about hot chicks - one or the other.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Federica,
Now, Now, let's be nice BF. He's helped me keep this thread going as this is my first one. If he can come up with something deep on Buddhism, I will be quite happy. The other one will hurt his karma since he will cause lust in other gentleman and I'm sure that would not be good.:wow: If he wants to think of women that he finds attractive, that is his choice.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
I'm sorry.... you're right....it's not nice to mock the afflicted....
Actually, I'm working my way through the book, but I put it down a couple of days ago, and now i can't lay my hands on it.... but it's nice to read other people's "progress reports".....
Alright, alright I'm finally posting. I've finally gotten enough sleep and reread the two chapters. I actually try and read them twice before I post as I want to make sure I'm not totally missing the mark. You guys know by now how us newbies are.
Chapter 5
I hope everything isn't suffering. That wouldn't be very cool. I mentioned in another thread where I've dealt with depression most of my adult life and it's only been the past 5 years that it's gotten under control. I've actually had moments where I thought life was pretty good. When I read this chapter, I thought those people who thought everything was suffering were way off base. Not that I'm a great Buddhist thinker, it's just there are some good things in life too. Learning to recognize things as they are is a big challenge.
I first started to meditate to learn how to calm my mind down and then I hear "Life is suffering". I remember a long time ago having a conversation with a friend about that statement and we both went "DUH!". But I became disenchanted for some reason and being the staunch agnostic I am read some things on buddhanet that I couldn't agree with and got right back on the suffering wagon and doing nothing about it.
I'm glad that TNH points out that not all is suffering. We need to learn how to live in the moment and not just make mantras out of the Buddhas teachings. Sure some of us chant when we meditate, but I don't think that is going to bring me any closer to enlightenment. I look at it more as a vehicle to learn something that my teacher is trying to get across to me. My teacher gave me a specific mantra to use. I knew it wasn't the end all and be all of what I'm to learn in a lifetime. That would be too simplistic and to be honest kind of boring. But I digress.
There are moments that life is fantastic. There are experiences that we have that fill us with great joy. My partner and I have times where we don't want a moment to end but we can't capture it in time either. Plus, there might be another really cool experience that is going to happen. I was glad to hear there was also joy in life and it was okay to have it as a Buddhist. I did anyway because my teacher seems to be one of the happiest people I know.
Chapter 6
This chapter has been the last year of my life. I had an accident where I fell down a flight of stairs (14 in all) and broke a vertebrae in my spine. I couldn't do much of anything cept read, watch tv, and wait for the visiting nurse or my partner to get home to have some help. Then I had back surgery and almost died from complications. I was in the hospital for 2 months on the opposite side of the bed and had to learn how to be a patient. I just was able to go back to work part time 5 weeks ago (11 months off and it was no vacation). That period I had to rest, stop, and not do much. I tried to do too much in the beginnning and I ended up falling down in the middle of downtown in our little town and breaking 3 fingers. That's why you don't do too much too soon. I have had to stop, calm down, rest, and heal. Part of the calming down was physical and occupational therapy.
But around July I finally had the time to take a meditation class. I only had an online class since I was a night shifter. I found out that I could sit in a chair to meditate. I am not able to do any of the postures or even use a seiza bench as it hurts too much to use them. I got to the point when I meditated before I loved my bench. But I had to let go of it. Sitting in a chair to meditate isn't all that bad. I may have found an alternative to the chair, but more on that later.
I'm still not the greatest rester. I ended up becoming a computer junkie. But then I found this really cool site www.newbuddhist.com and met some really cool people. OOPS, am I sucking up or what? During a resting time (and the rest) you can learn a few things. I learned that I missed reading about Buddhism and meditating. It gave me a chance to find a sangha near by. And I love the idea of an online sangha for those who don't have one near by. Oh, and I learned how to quit smoking. Haven't had a cigarette in over 10 months now. It's easier to do the mindfulness of breathing meditation when you can breathe. LOL! I learned that I missed meditating daily. I have to relearn the concentration I built up. But that's okay. I rather try again than not try at all.
What are others thinking or applying from these chapters?
My big goal - that is re-asserted in this book is the removal of attachment.
I'm at a point in my life where, as part of a relationship, I EXPECT things to happen. Needless to say, in a relationship where there are two people involved - things don't always go your way, even if that was the game plan in the beginning.
I find that my expectations are a form of attachment that I need to let go of. And in the process, I may find that I let go of many more things than I anticipated.
Finding calm by removing these things, these attachments, expectations, promises - I find I am able to more clearly see my day to day moments for a change.
I don't know if this will be of any value to you, BF, but expectations are a premeditated resentment. When I expect something of my partner and he doesn't do it, I get all kinds of interesting emotions coming up. That is part of the attachment I guess. Luckily, no ankle biters on the scene. But it also is a great time to learn about myself and what I need to work on. My partner can tick me off like no one else can. But at the same time, I can experience joy with him like I can with no one else. So you more experienced people, what do you have to say about attachments in relationships? We'd love your two cents worth!
My big issue is trust. I've had trust completely destroyed. I've been asked to try to forgive and give a person a second chance - and if I did this - they would do whatever they could to build back that trust.
But, now that the accepting has been done on my part, the promise of rebuilding doesn't seem that important anymore.
I wouldn't completely agree that expectations are premeditated resentment. I think that if you have created expectations in your mind - without anyone else being involved in this process - then yes, they are a vehicle for resentment.
But, if someone promises you something - this "expectation" is something agreed upon by two people. Whether it's love, money, sex, a house, a car, a new bicycle - it's an agreement between two people. I know that's far fetched but there is a difference between the expectations of a promise and expectations developed in one's mind.
Hey gang,
The chapters are getting a litttle longer and a bit more in depth so I thought we might start wanting to do one chapter a week for a while. But this is a group decision so put your 2 cents worth in. Due to my schedule, I worked last night and am having a fit of insomnia and not the most coherent. I will try and write something later today or tomorrow. Buddhafoot, my man, you are always welcome to start out. I will pick up the slack next weekend as I am not working next weekend. So start posting gang! :rocker:
I just want to re-read the chapter before I start opening my yap.
I find it's good just to repeat what TNH says and that way I sound like I know what I'm talking about instead of looking like the blubbering idiot that I am
I liked the definition of the "Turning of Wheel of Dharma" and why it was put into motion 12 times. I had heard others here speak about the "Turning of the Wheel" but never had that much of an explanation of what it was - and this was of my own doing - I just never pursued an understanding of that particular phrase.
The explanations of the first, second, third turnings being "Recognition", "Encouragement" and "Realization" - respectively - helps put into practice the teachings of Buddha.
The chapter also makes some excellent points about being mindful.
I've never been one to take too much interest in hearing people say that "listening to this is bad" or "watching that is bad" because I felt that most people should be grown up enough to recognize exactly what it is they are doing. If you're watching "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" - you have to realize it's only a movie with actors, scripts and special effects. If you're listening to Marylin Manson - you have to realize that he's just an artist using every bit of shock value to get the attention of a certain culture or demographic - so they will buy the bands albums.
But!, I should be mindful of the things that I let enter my body whether it is by mouth, eyes or ears. All things have may have an effect on us whether we realize it or not. Listening to a song about a jilted lover or somebody getting what is coming to them - suck us into the mindset of the song. Or watching television shows about anger, deceipt or violence sucks us into that mindset as well.
Now, I'm not saying that we all have to pussyfoot around not watching anything but mamby-pamby television - but just being mindful while we are doing it. I know I got tired of the news a long time ago because the news didn't seem to report anything except the ugliness that was happening in the world.
TNH's discussion on the different kinds of nutriments we have as humans: Edible Food, Sense Impressions, Volition/Intention/Will, and Consciousness followed up this talk of what we ingest and how it impacts us.
I have to say I'm enjoying going through this book. I've read quite a way into it, but find that going back and re-reading chapters for this thread really drive home TNH's ideas, his stories and his relaying of Buddha's message.
Buddhafoot,
I have to agree with you. He does put the message of mindfulness home in this chapter. One thing that stuck out to me is that you get to a point in the Second Noble Truth where you realize that your suffering is your own making. I went to my doctor this morning and we are working on some pain issues that can't seem to get under control. He being the kind man that he was told me the truth. I realized that what he was telling me was that part of my pain was partially due to some of my habits. I wasn't angry, but this was his 3rd time telling me. Hmmmm, that's interesting but I digress. My suffering has been caused by some of my behaviors. There were other things going into it. I think for me I have to remember that it is so simplistic as one cause and one effect. There can be multiple causes that are producing the effect.
This does bring up a question for me though. It might be one that I have to ask my teacher also. I'm still learning how to quiet my mind during meditation. TNH mentions that we look deeply in the second turning of the wheel of the Second Noble Truth to find out what nutriments have contributed to our suffering. OOPS, that isn't part of meditation exactly. It can come up during meditation, but not necessarily. My mistake.
Buddhafoot said "But!, I should be mindful of the things that I let enter my body whether it is by mouth, eyes or ears. All things have may have an effect on us whether we realize it or not. Listening to a song about a jilted lover or somebody getting what is coming to them - suck us into the mindset of the song. Or watching television shows about anger, deceipt or violence sucks us into that mindset as well.
Now, I'm not saying that we all have to pussyfoot around not watching anything but mamby-pamby television - but just being mindful while we are doing it. I know I got tired of the news a long time ago because the news didn't seem to report anything except the ugliness that was happening in the world."
I wonder though if after so many years of listening to negativity that it doesn't have some effect on us. How do we remain mindful while watching TV or listening to music and realizing for what it is? I really get into crime drama and Court TV. Most of it not very happy, but I like the mystery value of it. I realize it isn't going to be the happiest of shows when I start. There is one show I really liked but realized it was quite a downer and stopped watching it because I was so sad by the time it was over. We are responsible for what "nutriments" we take in. Just how to be mindful. Any ideas?
I know there are a number of movies that freaked me out.
The Exorcist.
Hellraiser 1
Schindler's List are just some examples.
At the time that I saw these movies - they had a great impact on me. Either they scared the shit out of me - or left me profoundly disturbed at the imagery I had seen on the screen.
Now, I'm not going to say that we need to stop watchings things like this, but really, what did The Exorcist do, that was positive, to my day-to-day life? Nada.
But, Schindler's List was a wonderful (yet painful) story of a man and his deeds and the atrocities done against the Jews (with some Hollywood influence, I'm sure).
We shouldn't turn our back on the pain of the world - but we also shouldn't inundate ourselves with imagery or sounds or emotions or speech that doesn't affect us in a positive way.
Unless... we are aware of these things we are taking into our body and realize the potential they may have.
As for doing things that cause us harm. I'm sure we all have issues like this. I know I have some issues like this that even though I recognize them, the "action" to remove them is somewhat slower.
Like, having a girlfriend who is "almost" a vegetarian and won't eat anything I make that has meat in it - but then tells me that she is going to make me something to eat with her soy crap. She's truly not making this for me - because I don't eat that stuff. But because she likes it - she thinks everyone should like it. And if you say, "Oh... I don't want any soy meat, fako, crap" then you get to hear (once again) about "what Oprah says about Soy" and "how soy is better for you" (but only on her terms). You get the gist.
It's the damn principle of the thing. I know the soy stuff is probably better for me - I just don't like someone shoving it down my throat!
But, I know she's right. I just have a hard time accepting things on someone else's terms instead of my own terms.
All 3 very cool movies. And yes, Schindler's List was probably the only one that had anything positive to say. I still get freaked out near the end when they take the women to the "showers" and they are afraid they are going to die. I've seen it 4 times and I know they won't die, but I can identify with their fear so much.
I can't comment much on Hellraiser as I have only seen it once but thought it very cool.
The Exorcist I loved. Truly frightening!
But were supposed to be talking about the book. I am going to have to read this chapter a 3rd time. I feel like I'm missing something about the chapter. I think I understand it and then when I sit here to type, I draw a blank. So more on it tomorrow.
Yes, they were... interesting movies - my only point was the affect it has on you afterwards.
As for the Chapter we're reading, I think the thing I got out of it - was the obvious...
There are nutriments (or things we ingest in various ways) that affect us.
When we have suffering, we should apply the "turning of the Wheel" teachings to come to grips with it and hopefully remove our suffering.
Recognition
Encouragement
Realization
If there were other points being made in there (which I'm sure there were) I probably missed them because I had such a hard time sounding out the big words "Recognition", "Encouragement", and "Realization".
Buddhafoot,
Sorry, I'm a movie junkie. I knew that wasn't the point of the post. By the way, Brian and I waited for you at coffee for 2 hours and finally left when you didn't show up. We guessed you had more important things to do. LOL!
And I think your right about what to get out of the chapter because that's what I basically got out of it too. I sometimes think I should get something really deep out of things. It is deep as I can handle right now I guess. But I will reread it and see if anything else jumps out at me.:hiding:
Since Buddhafoot and I have been doing most of the discussion, I am wondering if there is anyone else who is planning on joining in on the discussion. If not, then he and I could go at a quicker pace as we are able. Everyone is still welcome to join in and we would love for you to do so. If not, we could move along a little quicker. And we would love others with much more experience to join as we are beginners trying to sort this out. Buddhafoot does a great job teaching me, and I hope my post have helped him. So let us know.
...Buddhafoot does a great job teaching me, and I hope my post have helped him. So let us know.
Telling you NOT to wear horizontal stripes again wasn't really help and had nothing to do with the Book Reading, Jer...
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
I must take this opportunity to thank both of you for keeping this thread alive. As I explained in an earlier post, I've lost my book, so it's good to see it being discussed and 'analysed here in the forum.
But I know how you feel and where 'you're coming from', Jerbear.... After an initially enthusiastic response, I ain't got many joining in on the 'Eightfold Path' Thread either.....!:crazy:
(Incidentally, take no sartorial advice from BF.... ever since I told him he looked good in pink lamé, he's gotten quite defensive on his own apparel.....!)
(Incidentally, take no sartorial advice from BF.... ever since I told him he looked good in pink lamé, he's gotten quite defensive on his own apparel.....!)
I would have posted something to your Eightfold Path thread - I just haven't felt like I've been too mindful as of late.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
I'm sorry if I sounded accusative, BF... that's not the case.... I'm just remarking how topics just tend to tail off, that's all.... I'm somewhat perplexed though, because this thread is discussing a specific subject which if people don't have the book (or like some dunderhead, have lost their copy!) there's not much they can contribute.
But the Eightfold Path is something most Buddhists - or those interested or following Buddhism - might have more to discuss.... that's all.....
BTW.... day-glo orange looks good on you..... and you're the only person I know who can successfully combine it with fluorescent purple......:thumbsup:
I have read through the whole thread on the Eightfold Path. I see what you mean where people aren't really contributing much. Cept TwoBitBob. I may jump in and say a few things myself after reading the thread.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
That's the wonderful thing here, we can 'jump in' or not, as we choose. But as BF rightly pointed out, discussing, thinking about, following or even just recognising the teachings of the Eightfold Path requires Mindfulness. Which is one of the spokes..... and as stated, they're inseparable.... and as I have said before, they touch everything we think, say and do, whatever or wherever we are, either actually or virtually.
So any thread or discussion, on this forum, is in fact supported, underpinned and upheld by the Eightfold Path, I guess...... just my opinion......
Thanks for pointing that out, BF. :winkc:
Dear Fede,
After the next chapter in the book, TNH goes into a discussion of the Noble Eightfold Path. With your vast array of knowledge, I'm sure you could join in for that part of the discussion. And if BF tries anything, I'll take my horizontally striped self and put it between the two of you. By the way, for added affect, I'll wear plaid pants. I'm sorry you lost your book. You seem to be quite articulate on your subjects.
:rocker:
Fede
FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!! Please join us. I want you in here with us. YIPEEEE!!! I'll even wear decent clothing if you join. Absolutely no horizontal stripes!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
OK.... bear with me, I have some ketchup reading to do.....!.... BRB....!
I need to apologize for not posting on the thread! I have been trying to keep up with the reading and have been checking up on the thread, but until recently I've only had the internet at work and I only work three days a week. Sometimes I'm not too busy and I can post and check things regularly but then somedays I'm swamped. We just recently bought a new computer! YEAH! Now we can get online at home! I will be posting very soon. As soon as I get through chapter 7.
-Dawn
With Fede and Dawn trying to catch up with where we are in the book, should we give them a week to catch up? I know you need extra time to sound out the big words and I need to read the chapters 2-3 times to make sure that I have comprehended it correctly. So that would give us another week to read Chapter 8. I think it would be a way to practice mindfulness and kindness at the same time. What do you think?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
Thank you. And as there are no pictures, I'm also busy filling in all the A's R's O's P's Q's D's and B's..... in different colours......
I'm onto the EightFold Path chapter.
I notice he's listed them in the book, in a slightly different order than the conventional one...
It will be interesting to see whether his slant on them is an improvement on mine.....:crazy:
Seriously though, I'll try not to hold things up too much... Thanks for waiting.
Thank you. And as there are no pictures, I'm also busy filling in all the A's R's O's P's Q's D's and B's..... in different colours......
I'm onto the EightFold Path chapter.
I notice he's listed them in the book, in a slightly different order than the conventional one...
It will be interesting to see whether his slant on them is an improvement on mine.....:crazy:
Seriously though, I'll try not to hold things up too much... Thanks for waiting.
We are only to Chapter 8 "Realizing Well Being". The Noble Eightfold Path is Eight Chapters long. So since I'm a little bit of a sleepy head right now could you tell us which chapter number you are on. You may be ahead of us. LOL!
:tongue2:
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
....Providing we're all looking at the same paperback copy, (cover of waving fluffy grasses with a deep blue sky and "lambkin' clouds) I'm on Page 49, Chapter 9 'Right View'.....
With Fede and Dawn trying to catch up with where we are in the book, should we give them a week to catch up? I know you need extra time to sound out the big words and I need to read the chapters 2-3 times to make sure that I have comprehended it correctly. So that would give us another week to read Chapter 8. I think it would be a way to practice mindfulness and kindness at the same time. What do you think?
Works for me.
But I may post a little early. I finally went out and got the Cliff Notes to this book to help me cheat in furthering my Buddhist education.
Where did you get them? I want a copy! I will still read the book of course since using Cliff Notes is kind of cheating and I don't think that is something that Right Thought would agree with. But it would help me follow along and not have to read the chapters 2-3 times to make sure that I got everything.
Where did you get them? I want a copy! I will still read the book of course since using Cliff Notes is kind of cheating and I don't think that is something that Right Thought would agree with. But it would help me follow along and not have to read the chapters 2-3 times to make sure that I got everything.
By using Cliff Notes, I'm just following Buddha's teachings of "Instant Gratification". I believe that was one of the teachings...
I've got the version with the Buddha statue and the book's red and gold. Thanks for giving me some extra time. I'm not usually a slow reader but lately I've been really busy since I started working more and I usually have to come home and do mommy things until she goes to bed. Usually by then I'm ready to go to bed also! Anywho, I'm going to go back and reread some also so I'll catch up soon. Oh, I'd love some cliffnotes too, I used to live off those things in high school and college!
....Providing we're all looking at the same paperback copy, (cover of waving fluffy grasses with a deep blue sky and "lambkin' clouds) I'm on Page 49, Chapter 9 'Right View'.....
How is the Eightfold Path listed in your copy of the book? I know the page numberings are a little off, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem, unless they don't correlate with BF's Cliff Notes. I'm still trying to find Buddha's teaching on Instant Gratification. :vimp: Maybe BF could tell us which sutra that is in.
Comments
This is a chapter I've been referring to - even thought we've only been covering the first four.
TNH does an excellent job of detailing that "everything is NOT suffering".
He goes into historical areas concerning how, even only a hundred years after Buddha's passing, that people were coming up with interpretations that EVERYTHING is suffering and one can only gain enlightenment by chanting some mantra, to this effect, over and over and over and over and over...
It's like they couldn't see the forest for the trees.
By Buddha saying that there is suffering in life - mis-guided people have (and probably caused others) to possibly waste their lives away on a simple mantra - while missing all the beauty and joy there is in the world.
I sometimes wonder about that - how many monks or nuns sat in a room their entire life - repeating a mantra - until their life was over - and what did that life amount to?
There is joy when suffering is absent. It may be these steps towards removing suffering and attachment in our lives that brings even greater joy as we progress further along the path.
I sometimes can't figure out why "I" have to journey on the Path while Buddha managed to do it in an evening...pisses me off.
I think this chapter could be summed up as If you live - you are going to suffer. Understand that. But, if you live, you can also experience all the love, joy, happiness, wonder and beauty that is in the world too.
Elohim or Simon could probably add some information here regarding the Turning of the Wheel, The Dharma Seals and various thoughts and interpretations.
Chapter 6
Learning the art of stopping.
I've had people ask my why meditation is so big in Buddhism. What's it all for? What do you meditate on?
This chapter does a good job of educating people on what meditation can be. There are many forms of meditation - but, as TNH says, just stopping - becoming calm - becoming aware of what is happening right now - and relaxing or resting.
As other people have stated here, we all have the Monkey mind. It chatters all around us, yanking our thoughts here and there - which if unchecked - becomes a way of life for us.
Meditation is a practice that allows us to reign in the monkey mind. Meditation is a practice that allows us to learn to perceive the here and now. Meditation is a practice. You're practicing stopping, relaxing, being calm, resting. This is a practice just like throwing a ball.
At first - all of us had difficulty throwing a ball. Very awkward and weak. But, with practice, this activity becomes more and more proficient, skilfull, powerful and accurate. Without very much practice - one even finds that they are throwing a ball with great strength and accuracy - even while thinking about something else or talking to someone else. The practice has engrained itself into us.
Practicing meditation is the same thing. By practicing meditation - you are developing the strength, power and accuracy of your meditation. Soon, you can have various life situations thrown in your face - but you don't react weakly, poorly, or inaccurately. Your practice has helped bring your mind into focus - into dealing with the "here and now". You probably won't be ao apt to lash out in anger or hurt or reciprocate violence for violence.
Your practice will come into play.
At least some of the thoughts I got out of these two wonderful chapters.
I think I might make it a point to re-read these chapters multiple times.
-bf
I've read the chapters but worked last night and slept very little today so look for a message from me tomorrow. I haven't forgotten about this buddy!
No worries.
I just thought maybe you were refraining and making the rest of us tow the line for a change.
I'll look for something deep, thoughtful and profound regarding Buddhism from you - or something about hot chicks - one or the other.
-bf
BF.... for you, that IS profound.....
Now, Now, let's be nice BF. He's helped me keep this thread going as this is my first one. If he can come up with something deep on Buddhism, I will be quite happy. The other one will hurt his karma since he will cause lust in other gentleman and I'm sure that would not be good.:wow: If he wants to think of women that he finds attractive, that is his choice.
Actually, I'm working my way through the book, but I put it down a couple of days ago, and now i can't lay my hands on it.... but it's nice to read other people's "progress reports".....
Fede,
Afflicted? You have no idea
-bf
Chapter 5
I hope everything isn't suffering. That wouldn't be very cool. I mentioned in another thread where I've dealt with depression most of my adult life and it's only been the past 5 years that it's gotten under control. I've actually had moments where I thought life was pretty good. When I read this chapter, I thought those people who thought everything was suffering were way off base. Not that I'm a great Buddhist thinker, it's just there are some good things in life too. Learning to recognize things as they are is a big challenge.
I first started to meditate to learn how to calm my mind down and then I hear "Life is suffering". I remember a long time ago having a conversation with a friend about that statement and we both went "DUH!". But I became disenchanted for some reason and being the staunch agnostic I am read some things on buddhanet that I couldn't agree with and got right back on the suffering wagon and doing nothing about it.
I'm glad that TNH points out that not all is suffering. We need to learn how to live in the moment and not just make mantras out of the Buddhas teachings. Sure some of us chant when we meditate, but I don't think that is going to bring me any closer to enlightenment. I look at it more as a vehicle to learn something that my teacher is trying to get across to me. My teacher gave me a specific mantra to use. I knew it wasn't the end all and be all of what I'm to learn in a lifetime. That would be too simplistic and to be honest kind of boring. But I digress.
There are moments that life is fantastic. There are experiences that we have that fill us with great joy. My partner and I have times where we don't want a moment to end but we can't capture it in time either. Plus, there might be another really cool experience that is going to happen. I was glad to hear there was also joy in life and it was okay to have it as a Buddhist. I did anyway because my teacher seems to be one of the happiest people I know.
Chapter 6
This chapter has been the last year of my life. I had an accident where I fell down a flight of stairs (14 in all) and broke a vertebrae in my spine. I couldn't do much of anything cept read, watch tv, and wait for the visiting nurse or my partner to get home to have some help. Then I had back surgery and almost died from complications. I was in the hospital for 2 months on the opposite side of the bed and had to learn how to be a patient. I just was able to go back to work part time 5 weeks ago (11 months off and it was no vacation). That period I had to rest, stop, and not do much. I tried to do too much in the beginnning and I ended up falling down in the middle of downtown in our little town and breaking 3 fingers. That's why you don't do too much too soon. I have had to stop, calm down, rest, and heal. Part of the calming down was physical and occupational therapy.
But around July I finally had the time to take a meditation class. I only had an online class since I was a night shifter. I found out that I could sit in a chair to meditate. I am not able to do any of the postures or even use a seiza bench as it hurts too much to use them. I got to the point when I meditated before I loved my bench. But I had to let go of it. Sitting in a chair to meditate isn't all that bad. I may have found an alternative to the chair, but more on that later.
I'm still not the greatest rester. I ended up becoming a computer junkie. But then I found this really cool site www.newbuddhist.com and met some really cool people. OOPS, am I sucking up or what? During a resting time (and the rest) you can learn a few things. I learned that I missed reading about Buddhism and meditating. It gave me a chance to find a sangha near by. And I love the idea of an online sangha for those who don't have one near by. Oh, and I learned how to quit smoking. Haven't had a cigarette in over 10 months now. It's easier to do the mindfulness of breathing meditation when you can breathe. LOL! I learned that I missed meditating daily. I have to relearn the concentration I built up. But that's okay. I rather try again than not try at all.
What are others thinking or applying from these chapters?
I'm at a point in my life where, as part of a relationship, I EXPECT things to happen. Needless to say, in a relationship where there are two people involved - things don't always go your way, even if that was the game plan in the beginning.
I find that my expectations are a form of attachment that I need to let go of. And in the process, I may find that I let go of many more things than I anticipated.
Finding calm by removing these things, these attachments, expectations, promises - I find I am able to more clearly see my day to day moments for a change.
-bf
My big issue is trust. I've had trust completely destroyed. I've been asked to try to forgive and give a person a second chance - and if I did this - they would do whatever they could to build back that trust.
But, now that the accepting has been done on my part, the promise of rebuilding doesn't seem that important anymore.
I wouldn't completely agree that expectations are premeditated resentment. I think that if you have created expectations in your mind - without anyone else being involved in this process - then yes, they are a vehicle for resentment.
But, if someone promises you something - this "expectation" is something agreed upon by two people. Whether it's love, money, sex, a house, a car, a new bicycle - it's an agreement between two people. I know that's far fetched but there is a difference between the expectations of a promise and expectations developed in one's mind.
-bf
-bf
The chapters are getting a litttle longer and a bit more in depth so I thought we might start wanting to do one chapter a week for a while. But this is a group decision so put your 2 cents worth in. Due to my schedule, I worked last night and am having a fit of insomnia and not the most coherent. I will try and write something later today or tomorrow. Buddhafoot, my man, you are always welcome to start out. I will pick up the slack next weekend as I am not working next weekend. So start posting gang! :rocker:
I just want to re-read the chapter before I start opening my yap.
I find it's good just to repeat what TNH says and that way I sound like I know what I'm talking about instead of looking like the blubbering idiot that I am
-bf
The explanations of the first, second, third turnings being "Recognition", "Encouragement" and "Realization" - respectively - helps put into practice the teachings of Buddha.
The chapter also makes some excellent points about being mindful.
I've never been one to take too much interest in hearing people say that "listening to this is bad" or "watching that is bad" because I felt that most people should be grown up enough to recognize exactly what it is they are doing. If you're watching "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" - you have to realize it's only a movie with actors, scripts and special effects. If you're listening to Marylin Manson - you have to realize that he's just an artist using every bit of shock value to get the attention of a certain culture or demographic - so they will buy the bands albums.
But!, I should be mindful of the things that I let enter my body whether it is by mouth, eyes or ears. All things have may have an effect on us whether we realize it or not. Listening to a song about a jilted lover or somebody getting what is coming to them - suck us into the mindset of the song. Or watching television shows about anger, deceipt or violence sucks us into that mindset as well.
Now, I'm not saying that we all have to pussyfoot around not watching anything but mamby-pamby television - but just being mindful while we are doing it. I know I got tired of the news a long time ago because the news didn't seem to report anything except the ugliness that was happening in the world.
TNH's discussion on the different kinds of nutriments we have as humans: Edible Food, Sense Impressions, Volition/Intention/Will, and Consciousness followed up this talk of what we ingest and how it impacts us.
I have to say I'm enjoying going through this book. I've read quite a way into it, but find that going back and re-reading chapters for this thread really drive home TNH's ideas, his stories and his relaying of Buddha's message.
-bf
I have to agree with you. He does put the message of mindfulness home in this chapter. One thing that stuck out to me is that you get to a point in the Second Noble Truth where you realize that your suffering is your own making. I went to my doctor this morning and we are working on some pain issues that can't seem to get under control. He being the kind man that he was told me the truth. I realized that what he was telling me was that part of my pain was partially due to some of my habits. I wasn't angry, but this was his 3rd time telling me. Hmmmm, that's interesting but I digress. My suffering has been caused by some of my behaviors. There were other things going into it. I think for me I have to remember that it is so simplistic as one cause and one effect. There can be multiple causes that are producing the effect.
This does bring up a question for me though. It might be one that I have to ask my teacher also. I'm still learning how to quiet my mind during meditation. TNH mentions that we look deeply in the second turning of the wheel of the Second Noble Truth to find out what nutriments have contributed to our suffering. OOPS, that isn't part of meditation exactly. It can come up during meditation, but not necessarily. My mistake.
Buddhafoot said "But!, I should be mindful of the things that I let enter my body whether it is by mouth, eyes or ears. All things have may have an effect on us whether we realize it or not. Listening to a song about a jilted lover or somebody getting what is coming to them - suck us into the mindset of the song. Or watching television shows about anger, deceipt or violence sucks us into that mindset as well.
Now, I'm not saying that we all have to pussyfoot around not watching anything but mamby-pamby television - but just being mindful while we are doing it. I know I got tired of the news a long time ago because the news didn't seem to report anything except the ugliness that was happening in the world."
I wonder though if after so many years of listening to negativity that it doesn't have some effect on us. How do we remain mindful while watching TV or listening to music and realizing for what it is? I really get into crime drama and Court TV. Most of it not very happy, but I like the mystery value of it. I realize it isn't going to be the happiest of shows when I start. There is one show I really liked but realized it was quite a downer and stopped watching it because I was so sad by the time it was over. We are responsible for what "nutriments" we take in. Just how to be mindful. Any ideas?
The Exorcist.
Hellraiser 1
Schindler's List are just some examples.
At the time that I saw these movies - they had a great impact on me. Either they scared the shit out of me - or left me profoundly disturbed at the imagery I had seen on the screen.
Now, I'm not going to say that we need to stop watchings things like this, but really, what did The Exorcist do, that was positive, to my day-to-day life? Nada.
But, Schindler's List was a wonderful (yet painful) story of a man and his deeds and the atrocities done against the Jews (with some Hollywood influence, I'm sure).
We shouldn't turn our back on the pain of the world - but we also shouldn't inundate ourselves with imagery or sounds or emotions or speech that doesn't affect us in a positive way.
Unless... we are aware of these things we are taking into our body and realize the potential they may have.
As for doing things that cause us harm. I'm sure we all have issues like this. I know I have some issues like this that even though I recognize them, the "action" to remove them is somewhat slower.
Like, having a girlfriend who is "almost" a vegetarian and won't eat anything I make that has meat in it - but then tells me that she is going to make me something to eat with her soy crap. She's truly not making this for me - because I don't eat that stuff. But because she likes it - she thinks everyone should like it. And if you say, "Oh... I don't want any soy meat, fako, crap" then you get to hear (once again) about "what Oprah says about Soy" and "how soy is better for you" (but only on her terms). You get the gist.
It's the damn principle of the thing. I know the soy stuff is probably better for me - I just don't like someone shoving it down my throat!
But, I know she's right. I just have a hard time accepting things on someone else's terms instead of my own terms.
-bf
I can't comment much on Hellraiser as I have only seen it once but thought it very cool.
The Exorcist I loved. Truly frightening!
But were supposed to be talking about the book. I am going to have to read this chapter a 3rd time. I feel like I'm missing something about the chapter. I think I understand it and then when I sit here to type, I draw a blank. So more on it tomorrow.
As for the Chapter we're reading, I think the thing I got out of it - was the obvious...
There are nutriments (or things we ingest in various ways) that affect us.
When we have suffering, we should apply the "turning of the Wheel" teachings to come to grips with it and hopefully remove our suffering.
Recognition
Encouragement
Realization
If there were other points being made in there (which I'm sure there were) I probably missed them because I had such a hard time sounding out the big words "Recognition", "Encouragement", and "Realization".
I not a good reader thing.
-bf
Sorry, I'm a movie junkie. I knew that wasn't the point of the post. By the way, Brian and I waited for you at coffee for 2 hours and finally left when you didn't show up. We guessed you had more important things to do. LOL!
And I think your right about what to get out of the chapter because that's what I basically got out of it too. I sometimes think I should get something really deep out of things. It is deep as I can handle right now I guess. But I will reread it and see if anything else jumps out at me.:hiding:
Was it interesting?
Was Brian a bore?
Were you a bore?
Did you get into a fight?
You didn't go to Denny's for coffee, did you?
-bf
2. yes
3. no
4. no
5. no, we went to a coffeehouse.
Telling you NOT to wear horizontal stripes again wasn't really help and had nothing to do with the Book Reading, Jer...
-bf
But I know how you feel and where 'you're coming from', Jerbear.... After an initially enthusiastic response, I ain't got many joining in on the 'Eightfold Path' Thread either.....!:crazy:
(Incidentally, take no sartorial advice from BF.... ever since I told him he looked good in pink lamé, he's gotten quite defensive on his own apparel.....!)
Damn straight, sister.
-bf
I would have posted something to your Eightfold Path thread - I just haven't felt like I've been too mindful as of late.
-bf
But the Eightfold Path is something most Buddhists - or those interested or following Buddhism - might have more to discuss.... that's all.....
BTW.... day-glo orange looks good on you..... and you're the only person I know who can successfully combine it with fluorescent purple......:thumbsup:
So any thread or discussion, on this forum, is in fact supported, underpinned and upheld by the Eightfold Path, I guess...... just my opinion......
Thanks for pointing that out, BF. :winkc:
Oh yes it was! I need that reminder in my middle years!
After the next chapter in the book, TNH goes into a discussion of the Noble Eightfold Path. With your vast array of knowledge, I'm sure you could join in for that part of the discussion. And if BF tries anything, I'll take my horizontally striped self and put it between the two of you. By the way, for added affect, I'll wear plaid pants. I'm sorry you lost your book. You seem to be quite articulate on your subjects.
:rocker:
Fede,
I didn't think you were being accusatory - I know you better than that.
My point just was - and is - that sometimes I find it hard to contribute to something when I can't do it in all honesty.
I've been very busy of late - all by myself. So, interaction with people has been minimal and by the time I get home - I'm pooped.
I do have one area that requires me to be mindful on a daily basis - but I don't care to go into that here
-bf
Ooooooh dear.... bad move......now, I AM curious.....!
That wasn't my intention - but being a woman - could you be something other than curious?
No... I don't think so.
But, I (like you) watch my P's and Q's out here...
-bf
PS.....
I've just found my book.....!!:cheer:
I hate having to Q for a P, especially at my age!
FANTASTIC!!!!!!!!! Please join us. I want you in here with us. YIPEEEE!!! I'll even wear decent clothing if you join. Absolutely no horizontal stripes!
-Dawn
I'm onto the EightFold Path chapter.
I notice he's listed them in the book, in a slightly different order than the conventional one...
It will be interesting to see whether his slant on them is an improvement on mine.....:crazy:
Seriously though, I'll try not to hold things up too much... Thanks for waiting.
We are only to Chapter 8 "Realizing Well Being". The Noble Eightfold Path is Eight Chapters long. So since I'm a little bit of a sleepy head right now could you tell us which chapter number you are on. You may be ahead of us. LOL!
:tongue2:
Works for me.
But I may post a little early. I finally went out and got the Cliff Notes to this book to help me cheat in furthering my Buddhist education.
-bf
By using Cliff Notes, I'm just following Buddha's teachings of "Instant Gratification". I believe that was one of the teachings...
-bf
How is the Eightfold Path listed in your copy of the book? I know the page numberings are a little off, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem, unless they don't correlate with BF's Cliff Notes. I'm still trying to find Buddha's teaching on Instant Gratification. :vimp: Maybe BF could tell us which sutra that is in.