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I have as yet not discovered why he has chosen to tackle them in this order.
True to say, they are not states of mind one has to view as separate 'virtues' or that they are to be practised and mastered in the 'conventional' order.... but at present, I am confused.....:scratch:
I also find it easier to remember "Right V.I.S.A.B.E.A.M." than "Right V.T.M.S.A.D.C.L." ....
I think that the truth, Fede., is that the Noble Eightfold Path is not the Periodic Table. It may even be a Ninefold or Sevenfold Path! The actual elements thatv make up the Way Out of Dukkha has been taught from different 'lists'.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
Oh, I know Simon, and I even believe that each 'step' can in itself be broken down into various subheadings.... It's just that as 'the Eightfold Path' thread is my 'baby' as it were, I naturally feel things should be done my way.....
I have as yet not discovered why he has chosen to tackle them in this order.
True to say, they are not states of mind one has to view as separate 'virtues' or that they are to be practised and mastered in the 'conventional' order.... but at present, I am confused.....:scratch:
I also find it easier to remember "Right V.I.S.A.B.E.A.M." than "Right V.T.M.S.A.D.C.L." ....
Same as in the newer edition. We will start back on Chapter 8 "Realizing Well Being" on Monday 11/21/05 then. And "thusly" is a word, Fede.
My computer is down and I'm using my partners. So when I get mine back up and running, I will finally post a pic of me. You all can ask Brian, I'm just your average Midwestern guy. :cool:
What a timely chapter for me. I had an accident last year that required me to have major spinal surgery. Due to a 25 year smoking habit, I went into respiratory failure after the surgery and required mechanical ventilation for a month. I went into shock also. Luckily, they have all kinds of nifty medications to bring your blood pressure up when your body can't do it for you.
It has been a long recovery period and I just got back to work 8 weeks ago. I am in a lot of pain by the end of the shift and am only allowed to work part time right now. It has put a lot of financial strain in my partner and I's life. We're even discussing the possibility of not getting Xmas gifts for each other.
Now, to apply "You know that suffering and joy are impermanent. Learn the art of cultivating joy" (page 43). I am just getting in touch with how angry I am about the situation that has occurred in my life and then I read this. I realize it isn't saying to me not to get angry. But I do have some things to be happy about.
1. I have a wonderful partner who has seen me through all of this. He could have done like a banana and split, but he has stuck by my side during the illness and the subsequent recovery.
2. My coworkers held a couple of events and gave us the money that was collected. It paid my bills for two months. Most people would have said "Oh, that sucks you have no money" and moved along.
3. I can still breathe. I was able to get off life support. They were able to remove the tracheostomy tube and the feeding tube. I was kept knocked out for a month which made it quite easy to quit smoking. Next month, it will be one year since my last smoke.
4. They were able to get me out of shock and I'm still alive. I have to take heart medication now for a funky heart rhythm. It beats like a headbangers head sometimes. Something easily treated.
5. I have a wonderful offline and online sangha to come to and discuss the dharma when I can. There are a lot of places in America where there aren't any close temples for people to attend. And Buddhafoot keeps me laughing most of the time.
6. The nurse manager of the unit made sure she could hire me back when I became well enough to work. As I said earlier, it's part time but it is an income. The hospital I work at pays RN's with my experience level quite well so I do make more than a lot of people working full time.
7. My friends have all done what they can to help us out financially and sometimes with my physical care so my partner could get a break in the beginning when I could do so little for myself.
I have much to have joy and be grateful for. I do still feel anger over this situation but I'm working through it. So what are you all getting out of this chapter?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
If you find any of Abraham's posts, he has a quotation in his signature, from a Book by an author named Eckhart Tolle which simply states (words to the effect) that happiness is fed from outside sources, events, occurences, etc... but that Joy arises from within.
(As a side comment, I would very much like to nominate his book, 'The Power of Now' as our next topic for Book discussion.)
And this is why my signature bears the slogan, Mantra - which I recite daily -
"I am soooo happy! How on EARTH could I be otherwise?"
This chapter speaks volumes to me. I too have experienced hardships in my life - none to the extent that they were life-threatening or as drastic as yours, jerbear - (and believe me, you are in my thoughts and quiet recitations, daily....) and to many, in relating them, they might appear trivial and trite.
But that's ok, because it's exactly what they are.
At the time, they were earth-shattering, life-changing, seismic and so dreadful....I now view them as wisps of cloud on the horizon.... in view, yes, but ephemeral and inconsequential.
I have not perfected the Art of 'Realizing Well-being'... I am so far behind in the Buddhist stakes, according to some, that I probably don't qualify as a Buddhist at all.
But I can say, hand on heart that I do practise Right Effort every day of my life. And if I look from day to day, why! I'm barely moving forward at all.... But if I look back to see how far I have come..... Then Realizing Well-being is not beyond me. And I'm so enjoying the walk!
"No more grumbling, or sulking, or hating my state
No more fretting, or letting my troubles confound me -
But laughing! And Loving the friends all around me.....
And soon, I shall find, if I REALLY keep trying -
I have enough Blessings to keep me from crying."
This little poem sustained me through some dark times.... and has been there as I have tried - and really kept trying - to cultivate Joy.
I couldn't help but be moved by reading this chapter and thinking of some of the difficulties that some of the members of our sangha are currently going through. I won't mention any names because I don't want NirvanaNoob to feel singled out. Ooops! Sorry about that NN - but it's just because I've been thinking about ya.
Why is it that some things are so simple yet we still need to have them pointed out for us? Why are there old sayings like "Can't see the forest for the trees"...? This chapter, to me, pointed out things like this.
I found myself really thinking about some of the statements like, "What nourishes joy in me? What nourishes joy in others? Do I nourish joy in myself and others enough?"
I know this answer to this for myself.... No. I know I could do better in this - and I do try. But honestly, I don't find myself as mindful about it as I could be.
I'm not mindful enough.
I don't take the time to reflect on the joy that I do have in my life. I get caught up in the moment of how things affect and do not take the time to reflect (enough) upon the beauty that I do have in my life.
Recognition. Looking at our lives, during suffering, and recognizing that well-being and joy are possible.
I liked how he likened Buddhism to gardening. That Buddhism like gardening is not an idea that is to be bantered about, theorized and discussed. It is a practice. It is something you do. Just talking about a garden and learning all there is to learn about it amounts to nothing if you don't get down into the dirt and actually do it. It reminds me of a quote that Bruce Lee once made - doing martial arts without sparring is like learning to swim and never getting into the water.
I also focused on the points of people who are driven to commit suicide because of rage, despair or suffering. How in the moment of feeling like this - death is the only way to find peace - they cannot see the vast happiness that is available to them - if they would only recognize and be mindful. The peace of death is not peace. Death is nothingness. You won't know peace because you won't know anything. It's like saying "oh!, look how peaceful that rock is."
Many times I know I have sat down when having difficult situations in my life and I focus on the "now". How I'm feeling. How I'm hurting. All I can think about is the hurt. What was said. What was lost. But I'm not finding out or identifying the true source of my suffering.
Like TNH said, "First the doctor looks deeply into the nature of our suffering. Then she confirms that the removal of our pain is possible, and she prescribes a way out."
In these times of my suffering, did I ever truly try to see what was causing my suffering? No, I just wallowed in my misery and self-pity.
I think sometimes we just want the quick fix and want our suffering to just go away. Go away by us getting what we "want" and we think that will make the suffering go away. But, I think in these instances, getting what we want truly does not remove the suffering or the cause for suffering. It can happen to us all over again - if this same situation happens again.
But by identifying our suffering, recognizing it and changing our view of it and how it affect us - this is the only way to help remove it. I think of it like a tumor in the body. A tumor in a painful place and we just sit around complaining of the pain that it is causing us. We can continue to just suffer with it - or we can go to a doctor. The doctor will identify it and remove it. It may still be painful to go through this process of removal - but at some point we will be able to see it lying on the table. It's still a tumor - we can see it - but now it is something outside of us. It no longer causes us pain. The tumor hasn't changed - it's still a tumor - but we've removed it from us.
I don't want to sound like I'm teaching something - because I'm not. I'm just reflecting on what I read and how it affected me.
Note to self: Try to recognize the things that cause me to suffer. I may not even need to know how it got there - but try to recognize it and remove it.
Note to self: Be more mindful.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Sorry gang,
Due to a nasty bug and work (plus visiting relatives for the American holiday), I haven't read the chapter yet. Will be reading it later today if well enough. First morning I've woken up and not felt ill but that's no guarantee. But start without me, you know I can catsup or ketchup or mayonaisse or mustard or muster up the strength to get the chapter read.
Not slacking, but spending a great deal of time with my head hung over the toilet bowl for a few days. I didn't feel enlightened, just nauseous. I didn't even meditate I felt so sick. I was afraid I would be ill in the middle of it. I hope you can find in your heart to forgive me, L-A-Z-Y!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
Great. Now we gotta spelling Bee.....!
You guys are such - ..... M - E - N !!
So we are embarking on 4Right View' in this thread then, yup?
Going to read now.... L - O - S - E - R - S -.....!!:winkc:
Federica,
I like you too much to say something snotty back to you! I am hurt that you would think I would use this board to increase my spelling bee points as I have already won one many years ago. I'm trying to help Buddhafoot learn how to spell better. Isn't that part of right action as I posted on your thread? I will make sure to read the next chapter before I post again on this thread.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Well, what a chapter. I found it a bit tough to understand and yet I did get something out of it, maybe two.
One, our perceptions aren't right. Like when I first started going to my local sangha. I thought everyone was really into Buddhism and Zen. I found out that different people have different ideas about what this is. Every time I go, the way that I think about it will change. Actually, it probably always will as things are more fluid than static. I loved that TNH pointed out that "If you come to Plum Village for one day, you have an idea of Plum Village, but that idea isn't really Plum Village You might say 'I've been to Plum Village', but in fact you've really only been to your idea of Plum Village. Your idea might be slightly better than that of someone who has never been there, but it's still only an idea. It's not the true Plum Village. Your concept or perception of reality is not reality. When you are caught in your perceptions and ideas, you have lost reality." (pg 55). How often do our ideas and opinions have nothing to do with what is going on with a situation? It has gotten me many times a day. Because of my point of view, I can only see a little of some situation. But it's only my idea of it. One needs to look at something correctly.
My partner and I live in a major metropolitan area of the U.S. or used to be. People drive like maniacs around here. My partner gets road rage so fast it isn't funny. One day I challenged him on his road rage and asked him why he was so angry about that person and their driving abilities. He said "because they cant @#$%^&* drive". Then I mentioned to him that he didn't know what was going on in that vehicle. Maybe the person was taking a pregnant woman in labor to a local hospital, or just found out that a loved one had died, or had kids screaming in the back and just wanted to get home. He was amazed by this and said he never thought of it that way. I then said "or he can't drive either". Our perceptions can drive us to false conclusions.
The next point I liked was "When we practice mindful living, our Right View will blossom, and all the other elements will blossom too" (pg 56). One thing I've found difficult in practice in modern society is that we are so rushed that it is difficult to practice and keep mindfulness going. I'm just starting out on this though. Trying to really see what I'm doing instead of being swept up by time and circumstance. But that's what's cool about being a human being. I will always have challenges and chances to practice.
Why don't you add yourself to msn messenger so I can add you to my buddy list? You've got so many things wrongs that I could help you with.
And if you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn you can buy.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
I can so relate to the driving bit..... and I'm going to sound very self-righteous and sanctimonious, but I do to myself what you did to your partner, constantly..... I can never know what is going on in the mind of another person.... and as TNH says, the Buddha himself pointed out that "Where there is Perception, there is Deception." They may not even be having a bad moment, or even a bad day. Their whole life may be based in sadness, misery and suffering.....
I haven't finished the chapter in full....
But I'm comforted, personally, by the preface to it, regarding the Eightfold Path...
TNH states that:
"The Buddha offered the Eightfold Path in his first Dharma talk, he continued to teach the Eightfold Path for forty-five years, and in his last Dharma talk, spoken to Subhadda, he offered the Noble Eightfold Path......"
As TNH lists them:
Right View, Right Thinking, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Diligence, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration.
So at times, if ever I feel overwhelmed by all the knowledge wonderfully demonstrated by those who know so much more than I, I can find comfort and solace in the fact that underneath it all, the Eighfold Path is really everything I need to Guide, Teach, Instruct and Sustain me.
With it's diamond-clear simplicity, who could honestly ask for more.....?
One of the great atrengths of Buddhism and, for me, its special place in the 'pantheon' of spiritual/life practices is the emphasis on HOW, whereas most such disciplnes focus on the WHY, of living.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
I have read and absorbed the Chapter on Right View ( and will in all likelyhood absorb more and more at each reading....) and three specific phrases or points stand out for me:
The First is that:
It is impossible to have a Subject without an Object. It is impossible to remove one and retain the other."
Now this brought my father to mind.... he's an absolute stickler for grammar, and I can visualise myself discussing this with him.
For example, in the sentence -
"I Love You.... 'I' is the Subject, and 'You' is the Object. 'I Love.....' makes no sense. '....Love You', is also erroneous. So 'I' cannot BE without 'You', and vice-versa....
It makes sense to me now..... This is the interconnectedness of all beings... This tells me that even while I am thinking about someone, I AM that person, and that Person IS me.....
What a stunning and quietly calming revelation it is for me to understand it this way.....
The second is that:
"Image teaching" uses words and ideas. "Substance Teaching" communicates by the way you live.
So it is not enough to know, believe and speak.... The important is also to 'Walk the Talk' because Actions Speak Louder Than Words.
Finally, on the last page of this section, I was comforted to read that 'No View can ever be The Truth. It is just from one Point: that is why it is called a "Point of View."
That is a comfort to me. I am now more confident that whatever anyone's opinion, it is just their Point of View. and I must always be mindful that it is just the same with my opinion, and my point of View.
Incidentally, I love the paragraph about bowing to a Child.... it is just such a warm and wholesome and Loving and respectful thing to do.....
I have read and absorbed the Chapter on Right View ( and will in all likelyhood absorb more and more at each reading....) and three specific phrases or points stand out for me:
The First is that:
It is impossible to have a Subject without an Object. It is impossible to remove one and retain the other."
Now this brought my father to mind.... he's an absolute stickler for grammar, and I can visualise myself discussing this with him.
For example, in the sentence -
"I Love You.... 'I' is the Subject, and 'You' is the Object. 'I Love.....' makes no sense. '....Love You', is also erroneous. So 'I' cannot BE without 'You', and vice-versa....
It makes sense to me now..... This is the interconnectedness of all beings... This tells me that even while I am thinking about someone, I AM that person, and that Person IS me.....
What a stunning and quietly calming revelation it is for me to understand it this way.....
...............................
In the Gita, the Purusha, achieving self-awareness, says "I" and, as a result, "Thou" springs into existence and all the ten thousand thousand objects.
When I understood that there cannot be "I" without "Thou", my whole concept of the Mystery changed. In the Fourth Gospel ("John"), "in the beginning was the Word", but there is no word unless there is speaker, hearer and breath (Hebrew: ruach), a trinity of interdependent co-arising.
P.S. For those who are interested, the Greek word logos can be translated as 'word' or 'conversation' or, indeed, as 'argument'. New spin on the 'family' of the Trinity: in the beginning was the argument! And, btw, there is good theology in this idea of creative tension between Justice (the Father) and Love (the Son) moderated by Wisdom (the Spirit), which maks the crucifixion event much more interesting than simple substitution.
Why don't you add yourself to msn messenger so I can add you to my buddy list? You've got so many things wrongs that I could help you with.
And if you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn you can buy.
-bf
Buddhafoot,
In all seriousness (which neither of us can comprehend most of the day), when my computer is up and running again I will do it. I'm using my partner's computer as of now and don't put programs on it. But I would love to chat with you. You could clear up things like mud I'm sure.
I have read and absorbed the Chapter on Right View ( and will in all likelyhood absorb more and more at each reading....) and three specific phrases or points stand out for me:
The First is that:
It is impossible to have a Subject without an Object. It is impossible to remove one and retain the other."
Now this brought my father to mind.... he's an absolute stickler for grammar, and I can visualise myself discussing this with him.
For example, in the sentence -
"I Love You.... 'I' is the Subject, and 'You' is the Object. 'I Love.....' makes no sense. '....Love You', is also erroneous. So 'I' cannot BE without 'You', and vice-versa....
It makes sense to me now..... This is the interconnectedness of all beings... This tells me that even while I am thinking about someone, I AM that person, and that Person IS me.....
What a stunning and quietly calming revelation it is for me to understand it this way.....
The second is that:
"Image teaching" uses words and ideas. "Substance Teaching" communicates by the way you live.
So it is not enough to know, believe and speak.... The important is also to 'Walk the Talk' because Actions Speak Louder Than Words.
Finally, on the last page of this section, I was comforted to read that 'No View can ever be The Truth. It is just from one Point: that is why it is called a "Point of View."
That is a comfort to me. I am now more confident that whatever anyone's opinion, it is just their Point of View. and I must always be mindful that it is just the same with my opinion, and my point of View.
Incidentally, I love the paragraph about bowing to a Child.... it is just such a warm and wholesome and Loving and respectful thing to do.....
I'm glad you understand it. I thought of it in the sense that we take it in that we become one with it. I do a lot of observation in my work, and until I look I cannot see what the problem is. Sort of like the analogy of the Buddha being a doctor. Or maybe an RN, who knows? But I remember as a kid looking up at the stars and being amazed by them. And yes, maybe you're right. I did become one with them at that time. Oh and the joy of it. Federica, you may have just taught us all a valuable lesson. T-H-A-N-K Y-O-U (last time as it is beating a dead horse).
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
This is what I find so refreshing about my books... in the same way that I am unable to attend retreats and meditation or teaching sessions at any temple, nor contribute or participate in an actual Sangha, my books, are my tangible and ever-present teachers... And I learn something new at each reading.
But why? Perhaps it's because every time I read a book, I have reached a different and new level of understanding, and I am taking in something I was unable or un-ready to learn and absorb before.... that's not to say I am 'better' or 'wiser'... but that I am just a bit more open and awake to the new angle I'm taking in.... I have heard it said, that in cases such as these, we're not learning anything we didn't already know, at some level. It's just put into a phraseology we're comfortable with....
in exactly the same way as it is often said that we're all 'awake' already, were just sleeping through it....!
I think the thing that impressed me the most about this chapter, and it was probably the authors doing, is Right View.
The chapter started off with something that I had not really associated with Buddhism: faith. The statement, "The Buddha said that Right View is to have faith and confidence that there are people who have been able to transform their suffering."
I had not really thought of that. I had thought that there was no faith in Buddhism and it was an "act" based upon basic principles...so now I'm going to have to think that one through.
But that last statement leads up to more statements TNH talked about regarding "perception" and how we can be deceived by perceptions - so I'll get into that later... This is something I will have to think about - but I want my perceptions to be true.
So... TNH began talking about various seeds that we have within us and I was thinking of all the different seeds that I have within myself and how much time I actually spend on nurturing the seeds that I want to bring to fruition - and the seeds of negativity, anger, doubt, distrusting, hurt that I have already spent, in some cases, years nurturing.
"Right View is recognizing which seeds are Right View and taking the steps to nurture those seeds."
It seems like a person could almost spend their entire life - regardless of suttas and other teachings just working on bringing Right View to perfection in our lives.
Okay... now we're back to perception. The author states that Buddha once said, "Where there is perception, there is deception." And then going on to make the comment that the Buddha taught that many of our perceptions (whether long term perceptions or knee-jerk perceptions) are erroneous. And that we have to keep asking ourselves again and again "Am I sure?" I believe this is probably one of the greatest strengths to nurture in a Buddhist mind.
Like when we perceive or see a situation or statement for the first time - and then respond. Are we responding with the seeds of negativity we've nurtured through our lives? Are we really perceiving the truth of the situation? I always tell myself that I need to refrain from making knee-jerk responses due to the conditioning I've placed my mind through throughout my life. And is this immediate view I have of a situation or person the right view? The author taught that "a view" is not the same as truth. A view is basically a perception of a situation. And that someone else could see the same situation and come up with a different view - that's why they're called "points of view". He also stated that "Right View" is the absence of all views.
Lastly, there was a small part in the book that discussed our perceptions of what will make us happy. How we have an idea of "if this took place, I would be happy". And that, often, our very view of what we "think" will make us happy is the very same thing that causes us to be unhappy.
Going back to earlier chapters - there is much beauty in our lives to bring happiness. Just because we aren't getting the "one" thing we think will make us happy - shouldn't discount or cause us to ignore all the other things in our lives that bring happiness. The smile or hug of a child, the passion of a lover, the hug or closeness of a loved one, the sharing of experiences, the action of helping our fellow man - these are all things that can bring happiness. And that's not even counting the beauty that can surround us in our environment.
This book is making my "honey-do" list of "things I need to do" and "things I need to work on" too damn long.
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
Buddhafoot said this:
It seems like a person could almost spend their entire life - regardless of suttas and other teachings just working on bringing Right View to perfection in our lives.
And also this:
This book is making my "honey-do" list of "things I need to do" and "things I need to work on" too damn long.
I heartily agree with both of the above sentiments -
Isn't it incredible how the careful, more studied perusal of a simple book can bring our inadequacies into such sharp focus!? If just after a few chapters, we are reviewing the Road travelled so far and finding ourselves wanting, then what hope is there - ?!?
Plenty.
The fact that we're reading and absorbing at all, is progress.... and the fact that we're recognising and understanding is further progress yet. A work like this can do much to reveal our frailties - but we should perhaps learn the lesson of 'Right View' with regard to ourselves also, and know that as 'works in progress', we are doing really well exactly where we are. And we are exactly where we need to be.
The list is only as long as you need to make it. But I wouldn't even start making a list until we've finished the book.... Then make a list - as long as you like. Pages and pages, double-sided.... read, mark and inwardly digest - then screw it up, throw it in the fire, watch the pretty flames lick round the paper, until it's a glowing ball of fragile ash.....
I've been going through this book with a pencil and marking areas that I read that really impact me.
Gives me something to go back and read...
-bf
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2005
Me too... I highlight in fluorescent yellow..... I 've done that with a lot of my books, and even now, when I read bits I highlighted ages ago, they still speak to me....
Fede,
I must agree that we are works in progress. I am trying to take what I can from this book and leave the rest for when it's time. There are many great ideas in this book. But one thing I recognize is something I may have read in the bible, not sure, Simon would know. But it basically says that babies need milk, as they aren't ready for meat. When they grow up they are ready for meat. Until then, stay with milk. That's what I'm trying to do here. Though I really think you hit it on the head with the subject/object point the more I think about it. Not that these things literally wouldn't exist, just not in our current stream of consciousness.
federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited December 2005
So..... How far have we got now? I have just finished reading 'Right Thinking'.... and am about to embark on 'Right Mindfulness' which coincides with the thread 'The Eightfold Path' - but only because TNH is discussing the path out of it's conventional order.....
I'm the same as Buddhafoot. I'm planning on reading the chapter this evening. Anytime I read ahead, I honestly don't remember what I was going to read. The next chapter is Chapter 10 "Right Thinking"
By the way, what did you think of my last post on this Fede. I've been kind of waiting for a response from you on it. If you have none, that's okay too.
Comments
Right:
View
Thinking
Mindfulness
Speech
Action
Diligence
Concentration
Livelyhood
I have as yet not discovered why he has chosen to tackle them in this order.
True to say, they are not states of mind one has to view as separate 'virtues' or that they are to be practised and mastered in the 'conventional' order.... but at present, I am confused.....:scratch:
I also find it easier to remember "Right V.I.S.A.B.E.A.M." than "Right V.T.M.S.A.D.C.L." ....
Oh, please! I AM kidding......!:p
Same as in the newer edition. We will start back on Chapter 8 "Realizing Well Being" on Monday 11/21/05 then. And "thusly" is a word, Fede.
My computer is down and I'm using my partners. So when I get mine back up and running, I will finally post a pic of me. You all can ask Brian, I'm just your average Midwestern guy. :cool:
You? Average looking? I think not, my friend...
The helmet makes you look very cool...
-bf
If,our lives as we know it, end in a Buddhist fashion - I'll be reincarnated as a toilet seat.
-bf
-bf
I got one already.....
If it ends in a Christian fashion, I have a pair of asbestos water skis so I can surf in hell.
If it ends in a Buddhist fashion, I'll probably come back as Buddhafoot and torment people.
Great...
Guess I'll be seeing more of you than I expected.
-bf
Heh, heh...
Good one.
I'm such an ass.
-bf
It has been a long recovery period and I just got back to work 8 weeks ago. I am in a lot of pain by the end of the shift and am only allowed to work part time right now. It has put a lot of financial strain in my partner and I's life. We're even discussing the possibility of not getting Xmas gifts for each other.
Now, to apply "You know that suffering and joy are impermanent. Learn the art of cultivating joy" (page 43). I am just getting in touch with how angry I am about the situation that has occurred in my life and then I read this. I realize it isn't saying to me not to get angry. But I do have some things to be happy about.
1. I have a wonderful partner who has seen me through all of this. He could have done like a banana and split, but he has stuck by my side during the illness and the subsequent recovery.
2. My coworkers held a couple of events and gave us the money that was collected. It paid my bills for two months. Most people would have said "Oh, that sucks you have no money" and moved along.
3. I can still breathe. I was able to get off life support. They were able to remove the tracheostomy tube and the feeding tube. I was kept knocked out for a month which made it quite easy to quit smoking. Next month, it will be one year since my last smoke.
4. They were able to get me out of shock and I'm still alive. I have to take heart medication now for a funky heart rhythm. It beats like a headbangers head sometimes. Something easily treated.
5. I have a wonderful offline and online sangha to come to and discuss the dharma when I can. There are a lot of places in America where there aren't any close temples for people to attend. And Buddhafoot keeps me laughing most of the time.
6. The nurse manager of the unit made sure she could hire me back when I became well enough to work. As I said earlier, it's part time but it is an income. The hospital I work at pays RN's with my experience level quite well so I do make more than a lot of people working full time.
7. My friends have all done what they can to help us out financially and sometimes with my physical care so my partner could get a break in the beginning when I could do so little for myself.
I have much to have joy and be grateful for. I do still feel anger over this situation but I'm working through it. So what are you all getting out of this chapter?
(As a side comment, I would very much like to nominate his book, 'The Power of Now' as our next topic for Book discussion.)
And this is why my signature bears the slogan, Mantra - which I recite daily -
"I am soooo happy! How on EARTH could I be otherwise?"
This chapter speaks volumes to me. I too have experienced hardships in my life - none to the extent that they were life-threatening or as drastic as yours, jerbear - (and believe me, you are in my thoughts and quiet recitations, daily....) and to many, in relating them, they might appear trivial and trite.
But that's ok, because it's exactly what they are.
At the time, they were earth-shattering, life-changing, seismic and so dreadful....I now view them as wisps of cloud on the horizon.... in view, yes, but ephemeral and inconsequential.
I have not perfected the Art of 'Realizing Well-being'... I am so far behind in the Buddhist stakes, according to some, that I probably don't qualify as a Buddhist at all.
But I can say, hand on heart that I do practise Right Effort every day of my life. And if I look from day to day, why! I'm barely moving forward at all.... But if I look back to see how far I have come..... Then Realizing Well-being is not beyond me. And I'm so enjoying the walk!
"No more grumbling, or sulking, or hating my state
No more fretting, or letting my troubles confound me -
But laughing! And Loving the friends all around me.....
And soon, I shall find, if I REALLY keep trying -
I have enough Blessings to keep me from crying."
This little poem sustained me through some dark times.... and has been there as I have tried - and really kept trying - to cultivate Joy.
I've had a friend moving and I've been helping him. I will get on it tonight!
-bf
Thanks for keeping me in your thoughts and recitations. I need all the spiritual kick I can get right now.
BF,
Thank you for saying something. I was starting to worry.
Right next to the huge stack of Oracle work I need to get done before the holidays.
Ack!
-bf
Which translated means,
'Get your finger out and do your work - then you can relax and attend to what you'd rather be doing....!':)
Why is it that some things are so simple yet we still need to have them pointed out for us? Why are there old sayings like "Can't see the forest for the trees"...? This chapter, to me, pointed out things like this.
I found myself really thinking about some of the statements like, "What nourishes joy in me? What nourishes joy in others? Do I nourish joy in myself and others enough?"
I know this answer to this for myself.... No. I know I could do better in this - and I do try. But honestly, I don't find myself as mindful about it as I could be.
I'm not mindful enough.
I don't take the time to reflect on the joy that I do have in my life. I get caught up in the moment of how things affect and do not take the time to reflect (enough) upon the beauty that I do have in my life.
Recognition. Looking at our lives, during suffering, and recognizing that well-being and joy are possible.
I liked how he likened Buddhism to gardening. That Buddhism like gardening is not an idea that is to be bantered about, theorized and discussed. It is a practice. It is something you do. Just talking about a garden and learning all there is to learn about it amounts to nothing if you don't get down into the dirt and actually do it. It reminds me of a quote that Bruce Lee once made - doing martial arts without sparring is like learning to swim and never getting into the water.
I also focused on the points of people who are driven to commit suicide because of rage, despair or suffering. How in the moment of feeling like this - death is the only way to find peace - they cannot see the vast happiness that is available to them - if they would only recognize and be mindful. The peace of death is not peace. Death is nothingness. You won't know peace because you won't know anything. It's like saying "oh!, look how peaceful that rock is."
Many times I know I have sat down when having difficult situations in my life and I focus on the "now". How I'm feeling. How I'm hurting. All I can think about is the hurt. What was said. What was lost. But I'm not finding out or identifying the true source of my suffering.
Like TNH said, "First the doctor looks deeply into the nature of our suffering. Then she confirms that the removal of our pain is possible, and she prescribes a way out."
In these times of my suffering, did I ever truly try to see what was causing my suffering? No, I just wallowed in my misery and self-pity.
I think sometimes we just want the quick fix and want our suffering to just go away. Go away by us getting what we "want" and we think that will make the suffering go away. But, I think in these instances, getting what we want truly does not remove the suffering or the cause for suffering. It can happen to us all over again - if this same situation happens again.
But by identifying our suffering, recognizing it and changing our view of it and how it affect us - this is the only way to help remove it. I think of it like a tumor in the body. A tumor in a painful place and we just sit around complaining of the pain that it is causing us. We can continue to just suffer with it - or we can go to a doctor. The doctor will identify it and remove it. It may still be painful to go through this process of removal - but at some point we will be able to see it lying on the table. It's still a tumor - we can see it - but now it is something outside of us. It no longer causes us pain. The tumor hasn't changed - it's still a tumor - but we've removed it from us.
I don't want to sound like I'm teaching something - because I'm not. I'm just reflecting on what I read and how it affected me.
Note to self: Try to recognize the things that cause me to suffer. I may not even need to know how it got there - but try to recognize it and remove it.
Note to self: Be more mindful.
-bf
Just for once - just THIS once -
you've left me speechless.
I actually had someone else write all that for me - but put my name on it trying to look cool.
-bf
Due to a nasty bug and work (plus visiting relatives for the American holiday), I haven't read the chapter yet. Will be reading it later today if well enough. First morning I've woken up and not felt ill but that's no guarantee. But start without me, you know I can catsup or ketchup or mayonaisse or mustard or muster up the strength to get the chapter read.
-bf
P.S. I haven't read it yet either.
You guys are such - ..... M - E - N !!
So we are embarking on 4Right View' in this thread then, yup?
Going to read now.... L - O - S - E - R - S -.....!!:winkc:
I like you too much to say something snotty back to you! I am hurt that you would think I would use this board to increase my spelling bee points as I have already won one many years ago. I'm trying to help Buddhafoot learn how to spell better. Isn't that part of right action as I posted on your thread? I will make sure to read the next chapter before I post again on this thread.
You two are just tooooo funny.
I laughed until I stopped.
-bf
One, our perceptions aren't right. Like when I first started going to my local sangha. I thought everyone was really into Buddhism and Zen. I found out that different people have different ideas about what this is. Every time I go, the way that I think about it will change. Actually, it probably always will as things are more fluid than static. I loved that TNH pointed out that "If you come to Plum Village for one day, you have an idea of Plum Village, but that idea isn't really Plum Village You might say 'I've been to Plum Village', but in fact you've really only been to your idea of Plum Village. Your idea might be slightly better than that of someone who has never been there, but it's still only an idea. It's not the true Plum Village. Your concept or perception of reality is not reality. When you are caught in your perceptions and ideas, you have lost reality." (pg 55). How often do our ideas and opinions have nothing to do with what is going on with a situation? It has gotten me many times a day. Because of my point of view, I can only see a little of some situation. But it's only my idea of it. One needs to look at something correctly.
My partner and I live in a major metropolitan area of the U.S. or used to be. People drive like maniacs around here. My partner gets road rage so fast it isn't funny. One day I challenged him on his road rage and asked him why he was so angry about that person and their driving abilities. He said "because they cant @#$%^&* drive". Then I mentioned to him that he didn't know what was going on in that vehicle. Maybe the person was taking a pregnant woman in labor to a local hospital, or just found out that a loved one had died, or had kids screaming in the back and just wanted to get home. He was amazed by this and said he never thought of it that way. I then said "or he can't drive either". Our perceptions can drive us to false conclusions.
The next point I liked was "When we practice mindful living, our Right View will blossom, and all the other elements will blossom too" (pg 56). One thing I've found difficult in practice in modern society is that we are so rushed that it is difficult to practice and keep mindfulness going. I'm just starting out on this though. Trying to really see what I'm doing instead of being swept up by time and circumstance. But that's what's cool about being a human being. I will always have challenges and chances to practice.
Any other thoughts?
F-E-D-E-R-I-C-A?
Why don't you add yourself to msn messenger so I can add you to my buddy list? You've got so many things wrongs that I could help you with.
And if you believe that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn you can buy.
-bf
I haven't finished the chapter in full....
But I'm comforted, personally, by the preface to it, regarding the Eightfold Path...
TNH states that:
"The Buddha offered the Eightfold Path in his first Dharma talk, he continued to teach the Eightfold Path for forty-five years, and in his last Dharma talk, spoken to Subhadda, he offered the Noble Eightfold Path......"
As TNH lists them:
Right View, Right Thinking, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Diligence, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration.
So at times, if ever I feel overwhelmed by all the knowledge wonderfully demonstrated by those who know so much more than I, I can find comfort and solace in the fact that underneath it all, the Eighfold Path is really everything I need to Guide, Teach, Instruct and Sustain me.
With it's diamond-clear simplicity, who could honestly ask for more.....?
Back to my reading....
The First is that:
It is impossible to have a Subject without an Object. It is impossible to remove one and retain the other."
Now this brought my father to mind.... he's an absolute stickler for grammar, and I can visualise myself discussing this with him.
For example, in the sentence -
"I Love You.... 'I' is the Subject, and 'You' is the Object. 'I Love.....' makes no sense. '....Love You', is also erroneous. So 'I' cannot BE without 'You', and vice-versa....
It makes sense to me now..... This is the interconnectedness of all beings... This tells me that even while I am thinking about someone, I AM that person, and that Person IS me.....
What a stunning and quietly calming revelation it is for me to understand it this way.....
The second is that:
"Image teaching" uses words and ideas. "Substance Teaching" communicates by the way you live.
So it is not enough to know, believe and speak.... The important is also to 'Walk the Talk' because Actions Speak Louder Than Words.
Finally, on the last page of this section, I was comforted to read that 'No View can ever be The Truth. It is just from one Point: that is why it is called a "Point of View."
That is a comfort to me. I am now more confident that whatever anyone's opinion, it is just their Point of View. and I must always be mindful that it is just the same with my opinion, and my point of View.
Incidentally, I love the paragraph about bowing to a Child.... it is just such a warm and wholesome and Loving and respectful thing to do.....
In the Gita, the Purusha, achieving self-awareness, says "I" and, as a result, "Thou" springs into existence and all the ten thousand thousand objects.
When I understood that there cannot be "I" without "Thou", my whole concept of the Mystery changed. In the Fourth Gospel ("John"), "in the beginning was the Word", but there is no word unless there is speaker, hearer and breath (Hebrew: ruach), a trinity of interdependent co-arising.
P.S. For those who are interested, the Greek word logos can be translated as 'word' or 'conversation' or, indeed, as 'argument'. New spin on the 'family' of the Trinity: in the beginning was the argument! And, btw, there is good theology in this idea of creative tension between Justice (the Father) and Love (the Son) moderated by Wisdom (the Spirit), which maks the crucifixion event much more interesting than simple substitution.
Buddhafoot,
In all seriousness (which neither of us can comprehend most of the day), when my computer is up and running again I will do it. I'm using my partner's computer as of now and don't put programs on it. But I would love to chat with you. You could clear up things like mud I'm sure.
I'm glad you understand it. I thought of it in the sense that we take it in that we become one with it. I do a lot of observation in my work, and until I look I cannot see what the problem is. Sort of like the analogy of the Buddha being a doctor. Or maybe an RN, who knows? But I remember as a kid looking up at the stars and being amazed by them. And yes, maybe you're right. I did become one with them at that time. Oh and the joy of it. Federica, you may have just taught us all a valuable lesson. T-H-A-N-K Y-O-U (last time as it is beating a dead horse).
But why? Perhaps it's because every time I read a book, I have reached a different and new level of understanding, and I am taking in something I was unable or un-ready to learn and absorb before.... that's not to say I am 'better' or 'wiser'... but that I am just a bit more open and awake to the new angle I'm taking in.... I have heard it said, that in cases such as these, we're not learning anything we didn't already know, at some level. It's just put into a phraseology we're comfortable with....
in exactly the same way as it is often said that we're all 'awake' already, were just sleeping through it....!
Y-O-U'-R-E W-E-L-C-O-M-E-!
The dead horse has left the building!
The chapter started off with something that I had not really associated with Buddhism: faith. The statement, "The Buddha said that Right View is to have faith and confidence that there are people who have been able to transform their suffering."
I had not really thought of that. I had thought that there was no faith in Buddhism and it was an "act" based upon basic principles...so now I'm going to have to think that one through.
But that last statement leads up to more statements TNH talked about regarding "perception" and how we can be deceived by perceptions - so I'll get into that later... This is something I will have to think about - but I want my perceptions to be true.
So... TNH began talking about various seeds that we have within us and I was thinking of all the different seeds that I have within myself and how much time I actually spend on nurturing the seeds that I want to bring to fruition - and the seeds of negativity, anger, doubt, distrusting, hurt that I have already spent, in some cases, years nurturing.
"Right View is recognizing which seeds are Right View and taking the steps to nurture those seeds."
It seems like a person could almost spend their entire life - regardless of suttas and other teachings just working on bringing Right View to perfection in our lives.
Okay... now we're back to perception. The author states that Buddha once said, "Where there is perception, there is deception." And then going on to make the comment that the Buddha taught that many of our perceptions (whether long term perceptions or knee-jerk perceptions) are erroneous. And that we have to keep asking ourselves again and again "Am I sure?" I believe this is probably one of the greatest strengths to nurture in a Buddhist mind.
Like when we perceive or see a situation or statement for the first time - and then respond. Are we responding with the seeds of negativity we've nurtured through our lives? Are we really perceiving the truth of the situation? I always tell myself that I need to refrain from making knee-jerk responses due to the conditioning I've placed my mind through throughout my life. And is this immediate view I have of a situation or person the right view? The author taught that "a view" is not the same as truth. A view is basically a perception of a situation. And that someone else could see the same situation and come up with a different view - that's why they're called "points of view". He also stated that "Right View" is the absence of all views.
Lastly, there was a small part in the book that discussed our perceptions of what will make us happy. How we have an idea of "if this took place, I would be happy". And that, often, our very view of what we "think" will make us happy is the very same thing that causes us to be unhappy.
Going back to earlier chapters - there is much beauty in our lives to bring happiness. Just because we aren't getting the "one" thing we think will make us happy - shouldn't discount or cause us to ignore all the other things in our lives that bring happiness. The smile or hug of a child, the passion of a lover, the hug or closeness of a loved one, the sharing of experiences, the action of helping our fellow man - these are all things that can bring happiness. And that's not even counting the beauty that can surround us in our environment.
This book is making my "honey-do" list of "things I need to do" and "things I need to work on" too damn long.
-bf
And also this:
I heartily agree with both of the above sentiments -
Isn't it incredible how the careful, more studied perusal of a simple book can bring our inadequacies into such sharp focus!? If just after a few chapters, we are reviewing the Road travelled so far and finding ourselves wanting, then what hope is there - ?!?
Plenty.
The fact that we're reading and absorbing at all, is progress.... and the fact that we're recognising and understanding is further progress yet. A work like this can do much to reveal our frailties - but we should perhaps learn the lesson of 'Right View' with regard to ourselves also, and know that as 'works in progress', we are doing really well exactly where we are. And we are exactly where we need to be.
The list is only as long as you need to make it. But I wouldn't even start making a list until we've finished the book.... Then make a list - as long as you like. Pages and pages, double-sided.... read, mark and inwardly digest - then screw it up, throw it in the fire, watch the pretty flames lick round the paper, until it's a glowing ball of fragile ash.....
Then forget it, and just mark one step at a time.
Gives me something to go back and read...
-bf
I must agree that we are works in progress. I am trying to take what I can from this book and leave the rest for when it's time. There are many great ideas in this book. But one thing I recognize is something I may have read in the bible, not sure, Simon would know. But it basically says that babies need milk, as they aren't ready for meat. When they grow up they are ready for meat. Until then, stay with milk. That's what I'm trying to do here. Though I really think you hit it on the head with the subject/object point the more I think about it. Not that these things literally wouldn't exist, just not in our current stream of consciousness.
BF,
Will crayons work?
-bf
How are you guys getting on?
So... I've just been reading my other book until this evening or tomorrow evening so I can participate.
-bf
By the way, what did you think of my last post on this Fede. I've been kind of waiting for a response from you on it. If you have none, that's okay too.